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nishom
10-19-2006, 10:55 AM
Salaam,

what is it meant when in the Quran it says not to take for friends disbelievers?

Sorry, but i cant remember where this ayah is.

My closest friend is a non Muslim.
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justahumane
10-19-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by nishom
Salaam,

what is it meant when in the Quran it says not to take for friends disbelievers?

Sorry, but i cant remember where this ayah is.

My closest friend is a non Muslim.

Here are the verses in question brother,

003.028. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from God: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But God cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to God.

004.139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God.

004.144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?

005.051. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

I did ask question regarding these ayah few days back, but no one cared to respond. Lets see if this time anyone does. Plz see post #9 of this thread.

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...time-high.html
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-19-2006, 03:10 PM
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=22
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#19

:w:
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justahumane
10-20-2006, 02:07 PM

Thanks brother Ansar for the links, but I think that its not helpfull to remove misconceptions. Can U be a bit more specific to prove why ALLAH had to reveal such verses which are so easy to misinterpretate and can help haters of both sides(muslims and non-muslims) in their evil designs to spread hatred?

Looking forward for ur reply. And this time plz keep in mind that holy quran is supposed to be easy to understand.

Thanks again.
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Woodrow
10-20-2006, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by justahumane
Thanks brother Ansar for the links, but I think that its not helpfull to remove misconceptions. Can U be a bit more specific rather than twisting of translation to prove why ALLAH had to reveal such verses which are so easy to misinterpretate and can help haters of both sides(muslims and non-muslims) in their evil designs to spread hatred?

Looking forward for ur reply. And this time plz keep in mind that holy quran is supposed to be easy to understand.

Thanks again.
I will not attempt to answer for Brother Ansar. This is strictly my own view. Although I am a revert to Islam. I find the Qur'an to be very easy to understand. There is no mystery in it. If a person takes the time to learn a few basic concepts of the Arabic language it flows as easy as water. Until a person has some knowledge of Arabic, there are many very good translations some are better than others. The only secret is that a person using a translation, is doing that, using a translation. If something seems radical or out of line, they need to understand that is probably a translation error. Also people reading the Qur'an need to be carefull not to take things out of context. Quite often a single line will have a very different concept when seen in view of the full text.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-20-2006, 02:20 PM
Hi justahumane.


Who said he twisted the meaning of the Qur'an? Allaah Almighty knows best, but i don't think the word that's used has any english equal, and that's the reason this is a confusing issue.



Peace.
Reply

nishom
10-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Salaam,

Just wondering in what context these verses were revealed.

During the life of the prophet (pbuh) the Muslims were persecuted by the non Muslims, and many hypocrites from amonst the jews and Christians claimed to be Muslims but deceived the Muslims, because they wanted to backstab the Muslims.

In such a case it would not be right to befriend a person whom you fear such ill conduct from.

However, what about todays society, im sure having non Muslims friends is fine-so long as you do not suspect of them ill conduct.

Furthermore, if you dont take n on Muslims as friends, how are you supposed to give dawah?
Reply

akulion
10-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by justahumane
Thanks brother Ansar for the links, but I think that its not helpfull to remove misconceptions. Can U be a bit more specific rather than twisting of translation to prove why ALLAH had to reveal such verses which are so easy to misinterpretate and can help haters of both sides(muslims and non-muslims) in their evil designs to spread hatred?

Looking forward for ur reply. And this time plz keep in mind that holy quran is supposed to be easy to understand.

Thanks again.
He is not 'twisting' any verses from the Quran - and you should know please not to use such words since they are accusations towards a Muslim.

The verse is very clear and the explanation is clear as well.
Like the article points out extremely clearly the word "auliya" is often mistranslated to mean friends when it does not.

Always remember the Quran is in Arabic - therefore people who make translations may mistakenly use words from other languages which do not best translate the words properly :)
Reply

nishom
10-20-2006, 02:25 PM
In such a case where we are discussing such issues, rather than having the translation of the Quran, have the commentaryu so that the verses can be explained.

Otherwise, these verses can be interpreted in so much ways.
Reply

justahumane
10-20-2006, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by akulion
He is not 'twisting' any verses from the Quran - and you should know please not to use such words since they are accusations towards a Muslim.

The verse is very clear and the explanation is clear as well.
Like the article points out extremely clearly the word "auliya" is often mistranslated to mean friends when it does not.

Always remember the Quran is in Arabic - therefore people who make translations may mistakenly use words from other languages which do not best translate the words properly :)

Okay brother, I m here to just know the truth, if any of my word is offending, I will remove it instantly.
Reply

justahumane
10-20-2006, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I will not attempt to answer for Brother Ansar. This is strictly my own view. Although I am a revert to Islam. I find the Qur'an to be very easy to understand. There is no mystery in it. If a person takes the time to learn a few basic concepts of the Arabic language it flows as easy as water. Until a person has some knowledge of Arabic, there are many very good translations some are better than others. The only secret is that a person using a translation, is doing that, using a translation. If something seems radical or out of line, they need to understand that is probably a translation error. Also people reading the Qur'an need to be carefull not to take things out of context. Quite often a single line will have a very different concept when seen in view of the full text.

Brother its not taking things out of context, ALLAH has clearly said and that too repeatedly that dont make friends among non-muslims, and these orders are not time bound but supposed to be followed till quayamah by muslims.
Reply

Woodrow
10-20-2006, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by nishom
In such a case where we are discussing such issues, rather than having the translation of the Quran, have the commentaryu so that the verses can be explained.

Otherwise, these verses can be interpreted in so much ways.
The only problem those of us who are Muslim often are not aware of what areas are not understood by non-Muslims. Also we are reluctant to post commentaries as to many of us that is tantamount to adding to or detracting from the Qur'an.

However, there are many frequent misconceptions that have been discussed at length on various threads. A good starting point would be to click on any of Ansar's posts and follow the excellent links he gives in the lower right of his posts.

Another good place to look is in our forum section(Basics of Islam-http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/)that is an introduction to Islam.

Hope this may be of some help.
Reply

justahumane
10-20-2006, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi justahumane.


Who said he twisted the meaning of the Qur'an? Allaah Almighty knows best, but i don't think the word that's used has any english equal, and that's the reason this is a confusing issue.



Peace.
Brother, the bottomline is that why ALLAH had to use the language and words which cant be transltated properly for the whole humankind for whom the holy book is meant. Almost all translators have used the word friends in the translation of verses in question. And what about 3:28, 4:139, and 4:144?

May I request anyone to explain to me?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-20-2006, 03:18 PM
Hi justahumane,
I have explained the historical context in the link I provided. That is why the verses were revealed, and they can be understood by non-arabs just as I have explained them in the link.
Reply

Woodrow
10-20-2006, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother, the bottomline is that why ALLAH had to use the language and words which cant be transltated properly for the whole humankind for whom the holy book is meant. Almost all translators have used the word friends in the translation of verses in question. And what about 3:28, 4:139, and 4:144?

May I request anyone to explain to me?
I won't go into why Arabic was selected However the same problem exists in all languages. No language can be translatered accuratly into another language. Often a literal word translation results in the wrong meaning, or trying to express the meaning results in the wrong word. Some modern examples: There is no English word for the German word Weltgeist. The English word for a speed bump in the road comes out as a sleeping policeman in chinese. The conscept of a non-conformist in Chines translates into English as an unbridled horse.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Show me where any of those say we are forbidden to have a non-believer as a friend. Don't they all just say that we should not value a non-believer over a believer? Can you see any reason why we should not be forbidden to value non-believers over a believer. Is that not the same as saying to a Christian that he should not place non-Christians over his fellow Christians?
Reply

justahumane
10-20-2006, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi justahumane,
I have explained the historical context in the link I provided. That is why the verses were revealed, and they can be understood by non-arabs just as I have explained them in the link.
Brother, I think that U havent explained about all the verses in question, rather U have only explained about 5:51, isint it?

I can understand that U are busy with other matters on the forum and cant spare time to explain, but I can wait for the further explaination.

And regarding historical context, one muslim told me when I raised question about interest being earned by muslims that the verse which forbid usuary was circumstantial coz it was a bad practice in Arab that time to earn heavy interest on the loan amount. That verse doesnt apply now and now we can earn bank interest which is not haram according to holy quran. Was he right?

Arnt those verses wh ich forbids making friends among non-muslims relevent now and can they be disobeyed? Wont it annoy ALLAH if some muslim make friends among non-muslim? if not than plz explain why? and take ur time.
Reply

justahumane
10-20-2006, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I won't go into why Arabic was selected However the same problem exists in all languages. No language can be translatered accuratly into another language. Often a literal word translation results in the wrong meaning, or trying to express the meaning results in the wrong word. Some modern examples: There is no English word for the German word Weltgeist. The English word for a speed bump in the road comes out as a sleeping policeman in chinese. The conscept of a non-conformist in Chines translates into English as an unbridled horse.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Show me where any of those say we are forbidden to have a non-believer as a friend. Don't they all just say that we should not value a non-believer over a believer? Can you see any reason why we should not be forbidden to value non-believers over a believer. Is that not the same as saying to a Christian that he should not place non-Christians over his fellow Christians?

Brother, can u further eleborate what u mean by non-believer over a believer? plz give me some example of how u view the things. Verse clearly mentions that U should not make friends among non-believer but among believers, its only ur interpretation which leads U to this context. Similer things being done by each and every person to suit his own needs and interest. Ditto for evil doers, thats the point which concerns me, can words of ALLAH be so easy to misuse to spread hatred among HIS own creations?

And plz forgive me, but using ur modus oprandi, each and every verse can be misinterpretated.
Reply

Woodrow
10-20-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother, can u further eleborate what u mean by non-believer over a believer? plz give me some example of how u view the things. Verse clearly mentions that U should not make friends among non-believer but among believers, its only ur interpretation which leads U to this context. Similer things being done by each and every person to suit his own needs and interest. Ditto for evil doers, thats the point which concerns me, can words of ALLAH be so easy to misuse to spread hatred among HIS own creations?

And plz forgive me, but using ur modus oprandi, each and every verse can be misinterpretated.
Using Ali's Translation, which I find to be one of the better ones, I can not see where any of those ayyats forbid a person from having a non-Muslim friend. Perhaps I do not understand English that well I have only been speaking it for 66 years.
All 3 of those ayyats state we should not take nonbelievers as friends rather than believers. In plain simple English we should not prefer non-Muslim friends over Muslims.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P


can words of ALLAH be so easy to misuse to spread hatred among HIS own creations?

to be honest if a person desires to spread hatred an evil doer can use anything as a tool to spread hatred. This is the price we humans pay for having free will.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-21-2006, 12:44 AM
Hi justahumane,
Even though I've referred you to the link, with all due respect, justahumane, it is obvious that you have not read it properly. The very FIRST point mentioned in the article on the issue was that 'Awliyah' does not correspond to the western term 'friend', and yet you repeat THE EXACT SAME MISCONCEPTION towards the end of your post. I don't have time to just repeat myself, so I was hoping you would spend some trying to understand what I wrote in the article, but I suppose things might be clearer for you if I just go through your questions and point out the facts you neglected from the article.

Brief overview - These verses speak about allying with disbelieving forces or parties against the Muslims. Friendly dealings with Non-muslims is a totally different issue and is actually something Islam advocates.

On the issue of companionship, brotherhood, etc...
Islam preserves deep bonds of brotherhood among its adherents. Muslims are united through their servitude to One God, and they support one another, helping each other strive closer in their relationship with God. A Muslim should strive to be in the company of those who will bring him closer to God and help him in his religion. It is permissable for a Muslim to keep company with a non-muslim so long as he is not negatively influences or distracted from his religious duties, but instead uses his good behavior with his companion as a means of sharing with him the beautiful teachings of Islam.
Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother, I think that U havent explained about all the verses in question, rather U have only explained about 5:51, isint it?
These verses are a family of verses surrounding the same issue. The same explanation applies.

That verse doesnt apply now and now we can earn bank interest which is not haram according to holy quran. Was he right?
No, he was wrong. The rulings of the Qur'an always apply, but the ruling of the verse you have asked me about is about alliance with disbelieving forces against Muslims. So that also applies today as well.
Arnt those verses wh ich forbids making friends among non-muslims relevent now and can they be disobeyed?
This is the part of your post which shows you clearly did not get ANYTHING out of the whole discussion on the meaning of Awliyah and the meaning of the verses. Please, please read carefully next time!

Thanks
Reply

justahumane
10-21-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I won't go into why Arabic was selected However the same problem exists in all languages. No language can be translatered accuratly into another language. Often a literal word translation results in the wrong meaning, or trying to express the meaning results in the wrong word. Some modern examples: There is no English word for the German word Weltgeist. The English word for a speed bump in the road comes out as a sleeping policeman in chinese. The conscept of a non-conformist in Chines translates into English as an unbridled horse.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Show me where any of those say we are forbidden to have a non-believer as a friend. Don't they all just say that we should not value a non-believer over a believer? Can you see any reason why we should not be forbidden to value non-believers over a believer. Is that not the same as saying to a Christian that he should not place non-Christians over his fellow Christians?
Brother, U and brother Ansar are placing different answers to one question, U say that ALLAH is only asking muslims not to value a non-believer over a believer, and brother Ansar says that ALLAH is just asking muslims not to take non-muslims as their protectors........which explanaion is correct in ur views? And Brother Ansar's explanation proves that Yusuf Ali has translated holy quran not so perfectly and there are many mistakes in translation, is this correct?
Reply

justahumane
10-21-2006, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi justahumane,
Even though I've referred you to the link, with all due respect, justahumane, it is obvious that you have not read it properly. The very FIRST point mentioned in the article on the issue was that 'Awliyah' does not correspond to the western term 'friend', and yet you repeat THE EXACT SAME MISCONCEPTION towards the end of your post. I don't have time to just repeat myself, so I was hoping you would spend some trying to understand what I wrote in the article, but I suppose things might be clearer for you if I just go through your questions and point out the facts you neglected from the article.

Brief overview - These verses speak about allying with disbelieving forces or parties against the Muslims. Friendly dealings with Non-muslims is a totally different issue and is actually something Islam advocates.

On the issue of companionship, brotherhood, etc...
Islam preserves deep bonds of brotherhood among its adherents. Muslims are united through their servitude to One God, and they support one another, helping each other strive closer in their relationship with God. A Muslim should strive to be in the company of those who will bring him closer to God and help him in his religion. It is permissable for a Muslim to keep company with a non-muslim so long as he is not negatively influences or distracted from his religious duties, but instead uses his good behavior with his companion as a means of sharing with him the beautiful teachings of Islam.

These verses are a family of verses surrounding the same issue. The same explanation applies.


No, he was wrong. The rulings of the Qur'an always apply, but the ruling of the verse you have asked me about is about alliance with disbelieving forces against Muslims. So that also applies today as well.

This is the part of your post which shows you clearly did not get ANYTHING out of the whole discussion on the meaning of Awliyah and the meaning of the verses. Please, please read carefully next time!

Thanks
Brother I have re-read ur article and this time more properly, one thing which confuse me that how come that almost all translation of holy quran use the word friends alongwith protectors?

Well U have clearly described that what ALLAH wanted to convey to muslims. Some scholers are opposite of ur views I think, it becomes very hard to choose who to believe. Same confusion must have came in muslim ways too. Is that the reason that muslims (majority of) have gone astray from the right path? If so than who is to be blamed?

So the confusion grows, let me see where it ends.

Thanks.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-21-2006, 04:41 PM
Hi justahumane,
Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother I have re-read ur article and this time more properly, one thing which confuse me that how come that almost all translation of holy quran use the word friends alongwith protectors?
This is one misconception amongst non-muslims and even many english-speaking Muslims - they think that the translations of the Qur'an are authoritative. Even a brief invesitigation of these translators will show that such a view is not correct. Yusuf Ali and Pickthall had no formal Islamic education and it is well known that their translations, though generally fair, are not free of errors. Interpretation and understanding of the verses is not obtained from these translators but from the Islamic scholar's explication of how these verses were explained/implemented by the Prophet Muhammad and how they were understood by the companions.

Secondly, it is not true that almost all the translators have fallen into this mistake of translating it simply as 'friends'. This mistake is not in the Hilali-Khan translation, the Saheeh Int'l translation or the translation of F. Malik.
Some scholers are opposite of ur views I think, it becomes very hard to choose who to believe.
Which 'scholars' ? If you take a closer look at what all the scholars have said instead of just a superficial examination, you will see that it all boils down to what I have explained above.

Regards
Reply

justahumane
10-22-2006, 09:03 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi justahumane,

This is one misconception amongst non-muslims and even many english-speaking Muslims - they think that the translations of the Qur'an are authoritative. Even a brief invesitigation of these translators will show that such a view is not correct. Yusuf Ali and Pickthall had no formal Islamic education and it is well known that their translations, though generally fair, are not free of errors. Interpretation and understanding of the verses is not obtained from these translators but from the Islamic scholar's explication of how these verses were explained/implemented by the Prophet Muhammad and how they were understood by the companions.

Secondly, it is not true that almost all the translators have fallen into this mistake of translating it simply as 'friends'. This mistake is not in the Hilali-Khan translation, the Saheeh Int'l translation or the translation of F. Malik.

Which 'scholars' ? If you take a closer look at what all the scholars have said instead of just a superficial examination, you will see that it all boils down to what I have explained above.

Regards
Ya I admit that U are more convincing than any other scholer I have talked on this subject. I must thank U for that.:bravo:
Reply

snakelegs
10-22-2006, 09:12 AM
off topic - is abdullah yusuf ali the same as yusuf ali?
Reply

Snowflake
10-22-2006, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by justahumane
Thanks brother Ansar for the links, but I think that its not helpfull to remove misconceptions.
I came across the same verse about not taking christians and jews as friends yesterday when reading the Quran. I too wanted it to be explained to me.

I read the links Ansar bro provided and found them v. helpful but I was annoyed to find how misinterpretations/translations of Quranic verses have lead to so many misconceptions - even amongst muslims. Me! imsad

Alhumdulillah, from the links, I found that wali (singular for auliya) meant protector/guardian - not friend as I had read in the translation.
3:122 ...Allah was their WALI (protector), and in Allah should the faithful (Ever) put their trust.
But I just wanted to say (as you never know).... that if there is still any doubt in anyone's mind, then I shall like to remind them of the muslim marriage law which states that a woman needs her wali's consent to marry. And her wali can only be a blood relative - relatives being protectors/guardians whom she can't marry e.g. father uncle, brother and so on... Only if there is no blood-related wali an imaam may act as wali. Therefore again wali (auliya) does not mean friend but protector/guardian which can only be a relative.

lol sorry couldn't explain it better :heated:
Reply

luke07930
10-22-2006, 03:19 PM
non muslims as friends? Surely this is a joke???? This cannot be a teaching of the Koran. Even though I havent read the Koran I dont believe it is a teaching of Islam, surely it would go against the peacefull nature of Islam to preach seperation and exclusion of non believers.

But what worries me is there seems to be a debate at all. Surely the answer is 'of course you can have non believers as friends', Nuf said.

But there seems to be some confusion even for the people who know the Koran well.
Reply

A_Witness
11-03-2006, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I won't go into why Arabic was selected However the same problem exists in all languages. No language can be translatered accuratly into another language. Often a literal word translation results in the wrong meaning, or trying to express the meaning results in the wrong word. Some modern examples: There is no English word for the German word Weltgeist. The English word for a speed bump in the road comes out as a sleeping policeman in chinese. The conscept of a non-conformist in Chines translates into English as an unbridled horse.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Show me where any of those say we are forbidden to have a non-believer as a friend. Don't they all just say that we should not value a non-believer over a believer? Can you see any reason why we should not be forbidden to value non-believers over a believer. Is that not the same as saying to a Christian that he should not place non-Christians over his fellow Christians?

Greetings again.

I have been reading posts in various places in the Forum and arrived here.

I know that as a non-Muslim (and not having read the Quran) I am "way over my head" in this discussion! I do though, see some similarities in the discussion here with those of Christians discussing the Bible.

To take scriptures literally is prudent, but sometimes this hides the greater meaning of the truth (in my opinion). To know what the scriptures mean to impart to us, we need to see the greater picture. Nishom asked “Furthermore, if you dont take non Muslims as friends, how are you supposed to give dawah?” I do not know what it means to give dawah, but I assume it seems to be in opposition to the scripture in question. Generally, when there is such a seeming contradiction in my scriptures (Bible) I have found that I have not understood it correctly.

Ansar Al-'Adl stated that “Friendly dealings with Non-Muslims is a totally different issue and is actually something Islam advocates.”

If this were not so, I doubt that I would have received the hospitality which the members of this Forum have shown me. I see greater kindness practiced here than I have known to be so in what is called “Christian” forums, where a mere question of faith posed, is often seen as a personal attack. Even in this debate, you seem to be more mindful not to offend others with whom you disagree. It speaks well of your faith and culture

As far as the language translation issue is concerned, I have heard Muslim authors who discuss the Quran say that only the Arabic language can fully convey the meanings contained therein and that all translations into other languages are clumsy approximations and that the poetic beauty of the Quran cannot be captured in any other language. This I believe is what Ansar Al-'Adl and Woodrow said in their posts.

My Bible gives a similar teaching that says “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers…” Some say that we should have nothing to do with them at all, which contradicts other verses.

Please forgive me if this is not expressed very well, but from what I have seen here (and from other verses quoted from the Quran which seem to exhort believers to be humble and gracious and which are taught in the Bible also but rarely practiced in Christianity) the Muslims practice “better Christianity” than do my supposed “brethren” who (in my opinion) strive to be glorified for their practice, instead of the One who deserves All honor and glory.

Forgive me if this comparison seems to be insulting (it is not meant to be so) but I cannot find any other way to say it.

As I said, I am in way over my head in this thread and speak of things of which I have little understanding, but I am impressed by the tenor of the debate. Perhaps I should not comment but I could not resist doing so.
Reply

Malaikah
11-03-2006, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by luke07930
non muslims as friends? Surely this is a joke???? This cannot be a teaching of the Koran. Even though I havent read the Koran I dont believe it is a teaching of Islam, surely it would go against the peacefull nature of Islam to preach seperation and exclusion of non believers.

But what worries me is there seems to be a debate at all. Surely the answer is 'of course you can have non believers as friends', Nuf said.

But there seems to be some confusion even for the people who know the Koran well.
Perhaps if you read all the replies in the thread you would be able to answer all your questions yourself.

Take care,
Reply

maryamjp
11-04-2006, 03:27 AM
Assalamu Alikum, brothers,
Having nonmuslims as friends tend you to lead wrong directions sometime. To make your friend happy you may do something against islam not to hurt your frien'd feelings or some eveil thinking might enters in your mind without realizing. We are not allowed to eat the certain things but your friend can. Your clothing should be limitted but not your friends.To avoid all possibilities which you may be trapped, you better have muslim as your friend. I myself is reverted, and had a lot of non-muslim friends. I still greet them occasionally but not that close anymore after marriage. I can not eat the food they cooked if they invite me. But at the same time when I think how non-muslim can access islam, I can say muslim friend.
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-05-2006, 05:15 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I won't go into why Arabic was selected However the same problem exists in all languages. No language can be translatered accuratly into another language. Often a literal word translation results in the wrong meaning, or trying to express the meaning results in the wrong word. Some modern examples: There is no English word for the German word Weltgeist. The English word for a speed bump in the road comes out as a sleeping policeman in chinese. The conscept of a non-conformist in Chines translates into English as an unbridled horse.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Show me where any of those say we are forbidden to have a non-believer as a friend. Don't they all just say that we should not value a non-believer over a believer? Can you see any reason why we should not be forbidden to value non-believers over a believer. Is that not the same as saying to a Christian that he should not place non-Christians over his fellow Christians?

you're right, only this verse changes it all..
005.051. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
Reply

Kidman
11-05-2006, 06:47 AM
Originally Posted by nishom
Salaam,

what is it meant when in the Quran it says not to take for friends disbelievers?

Sorry, but i cant remember where this ayah is.

My closest friend is a non Muslim.
The word they use for "Friends" is Wali. Wali is clearly an arabic word that means "leader".

So the verse basically states: Do not take unbelievers for your leaders.

I hear this refutation a lot... and they use the word "Friends" for political reasons which i am not going to get into right now.. but really, it is "Leader".

Just like you need your Wali for marriages and so forth... Same thing.

If you need, i can go into more detail about this subject.

Kidman
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-05-2006, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
you're right, only this verse changes it all..
005.051. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
That is the verse we've been discussing all along!
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post530150
Honestly, don't make a fool out of yourself by falling into the same fallacy we've debunked a dozen times previously. READ.

Regards
Reply

SirZubair
11-05-2006, 09:11 AM
A link worth checking out :)

Friendship With Non-Muslims According To The Qur'an - By Sidi Afroz Ali, Al Ghazzali Centre
Reply

Grace Seeker
11-06-2006, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
That is the verse we've been discussing all along!
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post530150
Honestly, don't make a fool out of yourself by falling into the same fallacy we've debunked a dozen times previously. READ.

Regards
I hope you will not call me a fool for asking a follow-up question.


I understand that "friends" is not the best English translation of the Arabic. But even with that understand, the second half of the verse under discussion then seems to read as follows:
"And he amongst you that turns to them [them referring to Jews and Christians] is of them."

I don't suppose that it is actually saying that one becomes in fact a Jew or a Christian by turning to a Jew or a Christian as a Wali. But it does seem to imply that turning to establish relationships with Jews or Christians somehow changes one in a negative way.

Further the last part of the verse: "Verily God guideth not a people unjust." when read in context with the rest of the verse would seem to be implying that Allah views Christians and Jews as unjust people.


Of course I do know some people who are adherents of the Christian and the Jewish religion that I too would say are unjust. But I would not defame them all this way. Surely this too must be a misunderstanding. Would you speak to it also?
Reply

Kidman
11-06-2006, 07:16 AM
"O' Ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your Wali (Leaders): They are but Wali's (Leaders) to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

So, let them be leaders of each other, and don't be lead by them. Basically, don't let them make up decisions for you, like a Wali does. A Wali is like a Parent, Guardian, Leader figure. So like a boss isn't even considered a Wali, it's close but not really meant as a boss, or anything like that, its more powerful than a boss.

And then it says that whoever turns to them, is one of them... meaning Christian or Jew. Then the next part says that Allah doesn't guide a person that is unjust... I don't believe it is specifically talking about all Christians or Jews, just the ones that are unjust. I mean, if we go back in time, all true Muslims were Jews and Christians at one time, before the true religion that Moses and Jesus preached became tampered.

Kidman
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-06-2006, 07:52 AM
Greetings
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I hope you will not call me a fool for asking a follow-up question.
I am sure you can appreciate the difference between asking for clarification versus raising the exact same misunderstanding that has been discussed, explained, and debunked in dozens of posts for the past few weeks - in the same thread!!
I understand that "friends" is not the best English translation of the Arabic. But even with that understand, the second half of the verse under discussion then seems to read as follows:
"And he amongst you that turns to them [them referring to Jews and Christians] is of them."

I don't suppose that it is actually saying that one becomes in fact a Jew or a Christian by turning to a Jew or a Christian as a Wali. But it does seem to imply that turning to establish relationships with Jews or Christians somehow changes one in a negative way.
The verse is referring to the aforementioned concept of Wilayah. Turning to them for what? For allegiance against the Muslim community, as demonstrated by the historical context elucidated earlier. If one chooses to side with them, then they are to be judged from amongst them. Religiously, the individual may not declare themselves to have adopted Judaism or Christianity, but the fact that 'they are from them' is still established by their political support.
Further the last part of the verse: "Verily God guideth not a people unjust." when read in context with the rest of the verse would seem to be implying that Allah views Christians and Jews as unjust people.
This is speaking about the people who ally with opposing forces against their own brethren, i.e. the Muslims.
Of course I do know some people who are adherents of the Christian and the Jewish religion that I too would say are unjust.
Actually this is relative. Depending on what you deem to be truth, you will hold those who reject and oppose it to be unjust to themselves since they are depriving their own souls of the truth that God has delivered to them, whether they think so or not.

Regards
Reply

Jameel
11-12-2006, 06:45 PM
does anyone here understand al wala wal baraa (to love and hate for the sake of allah) a vital topic which needs to be understood.by everyone..
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-12-2006, 08:38 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Jameel
does anyone here understand al wala wal baraa (to love and hate for the sake of allah) a vital topic which needs to be understood.by everyone..
Indeed. We are to have allegiance and love for our fellow believers and we distance ourselves from the disbelief of the disbelievers. But this does NOT negate that we are to treat all people with kindness and compassion and in the friendly manner of our beloved Prophet saws so that they will appreciate the beauty of Islam.

:w:
Reply

Jameel
11-13-2006, 10:22 AM
MOD: ALREADY EXPLAINED IN THE POST ABOVE. COMMENT ON WHAT HAS PRECEDED INSTEAD OF REPEATING POINTS.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-13-2006, 07:38 PM
:sl:
Some people are still struggling to get a simple point so let me just quote some scholars to avoid repeating myself.

From Shaykh Abdul-'Azîz Ibn Bâz:
He [the Muslim] also must be neighborly toward his non-Muslim neighbor. If your neighbor is good to you, you do not harm him and you may even give him charity if he is poor or give him a gift if he is rich. You may also advise him concerning what is good for him. All of this may lead him to want to learn about Islam and become a Muslim and because neighbors have very great rights. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) kept advising me concerning the neighbor until I thought he was going to inherit [from his neighbor]." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim). Allah also says in the Quran, "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and drove you not from your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity" (al-Mumtahinah 60:7). It is recorded in an authentic hadith from Asma bint Abu Bakr that her mother, who was a polytheist, visited her and asked for her assistance - this was during the time of the peace treaty between the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the disbelievers so she went to the Prophet (peace be upon him) to ask him about that and he told her to keep the ties of kinship with her and be righteous towards her.
From Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Sâlih Al-'Uthaymîn:
Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, from those between you and whom there is and agreement (of protection) [i.e. Non-Muslims]. For the land which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers.


...O my brother Muslims. O youth. Be true in your sayings with your brothers, and with those Non-Muslims whom you live along with - so that you will be inviters to the Religion of Islaam, by your actions and in reality. So how many people there are who first entered into Islaam because of the behaviour and manners of the Muslims, and their truthfulness, and their being true in their dealings.
From Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah:
This idea here should be understood, and the verse from the Quran that we should take as the overriding verse in our relationship with this people [i.e. Non-muslims] is where Allah subhaana wa ta'aala says concerning those who neither fight you because of your religion nor remove you from your homes that He does not prohibit you from showing them birr: righteousness. "Birr" in the Arabic language is the highest degree of ihsaan-it is the 'aala daraja of ihsan. Allah does not prevent you from showing them excellence-moral excellence-in your transactions with them nor from sharing with them a portion of your wealth.


Also, it is necessary for us to show respect to these people. Islam prohibits us from showing aggression towards people who do not show aggression towards us. The Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said, "Do not enter the houses of the Christians nor eat anything of their fruits except with their permission." Islam prohibits theft; it prohibits fraud; it prohibits cheating; and it prohibits these things in relation to the Muslims and in relation to the non-Muslims. The things that you cannot do to a Muslim, you also cannot do to a non-Muslim.



Allah, subhaana wa ta'aala, for that reason says, "Call to your Lord with wisdom and with a beautiful admonition, and dispute them in the most excellent of ways." In other words, debate with them and dialogue with them in the most beautiful of ways. Don't be argumentative; don't be cruel; don't be mean; don't humiliate them. Do it ways in which they can listen to the truth, respect the truth, and come to the truth. For this reason, we have to be du'ahtis salaam: people who are callers to peace.
From Shaykh Salmân Bin Fahd Al-'Awdah:
The Muslim is taught by his book, the Qur’ân, to hate falsehood, distorted beliefs, and deviance, and consequently, to hate the representation of falsehood and deviant beliefs at the hands of the unbelievers. He does not, however, hate the people themselves. In fact, he should wish for them every possible good and hope that they will attain guidance and be saved from the Hellfire.

When one of the unbelievers attains guidance, the Muslim should be as joyous for his sake as our Prophet (peace be upon him) was when a Jewish boy converted to Islam just before he died. The Prophet (peace be upon him) left his home saying: “All praises are for Allah who saved him from the Hellfire.”

The hatred one should have is for their deviance or sinful behavior, not for the people themselves.

This is why a Muslim cannot be blamed for his affection towards his son, wife, and others, even if they are not Muslims. However, such affection should not cause him to neglect any part of his religion. That is why the Muslims who, on account of their wives and children, failed to emigrate to Madinah as they were commanded were rebuked for staying behind. Indeed, Allah describes our wives and children as a trial.

In fact, the ones who encourage hatred are certain Western and other non-Muslim politicians and media personalities who seem to be doing everything in their power to instigate conflicts against Muslims in various parts of the world. By their practices, they seem to be trying to give the Muslims lessons in hatred and rancor.

If there are some moderate and reasonable voices in the West and in places like India, they are being drowned out by the overwhelming clamor of extremism and anti-Islamic rhetoric. Admittedly, the same thing can be said for the Muslims as well. However, I must stress that the West is suffocating the moderate and temperate voices in the Muslim world who are on the correct Islamic methodology, the methodology that is the way of salvation for the Muslim nation.
The Muslim is to be nice, neighborly, decent and friendly with all people so that his good behavior is a means of calling others to Islam. This does not mean that he loses his identity and affiliates himself with disbelievers, or that he allows himself to be influenced by them - only that he is respectful and cordial with them.


:w:
Reply

SirZubair
11-13-2006, 09:40 PM
The Qur'an teaches us how to address the people of different faiths. In referring to non-Muslims, the Qur'an usually uses the terms "people," "People of the Book," and "My servants." These descriptions were mentioned in the Qur'an. But, in Islam, sins are not inherited. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "If one is cursed (by being rendered into pigs or others), he or she would not have any children." And we know from history that those people who were punished this way by Allah did not have children or offspring because they were all destroyed.

In his response to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, president of the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:

Dear Jack, you have not received correct information about the Qur'an. I recommend that you read it yourself. In the Qur'an, Allah has mentioned in three places stories of people who were turned into apes and pigs. Almighty Allah says: [And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!)] (Al-Baqarah 2:65). He also says: [Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen! Worse is he of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road] (Al-Ma'idah 5:60). In another chapter, He says: [So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!] (Al-A`raf 7:166). In these verses, you will see that that a group of people refused to follow Allah's commands that were given to Moses. They had turned against Allah's laws and were punished by being turned into apes and pigs.

The Qur'an does not say in any place that all Jews are apes and pigs. On the contrary, the Qur'an says about Jews and Christians in general [ They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him). They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. They are of the righteous. And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil)] (Aal `Imran 3:113-114).About the Jewish people in particular it is said in the Qur'an [And of Moses's folk there is a community who lead with truth and establish justice therewith] (Al-A`raf 7:159).

Muslims, Jews, and Christians have lived side by side in peace and harmony for centuries. This is what we should do and try to do. We should get rid of prejudice and misunderstandings and should not be involved in propaganda directed against each other.
Source

Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states:

The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)

In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:

[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)

Moreover, Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them.
Source
Reply

Joe98
11-14-2006, 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The Muslim is to be nice, neighborly, decent and friendly with all people so that his good behavior is a means of calling others to Islam.

This does not mean that he loses his identity and affiliates himself with disbelievers, or that he allows himself to be influenced by them - only that he is respectful and cordial with them.

You completely excluded a close friendship. Which was the original point.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-14-2006, 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
You completely excluded a close friendship.
If that is what you wish to believe about it, sure.
Which was the original point.
Your's perhaps.

Peace :)
Reply

cihad
11-20-2006, 10:57 AM
i think that there will always be a pyschilogical barrier between muslims and non-muslims

i mean, c'mon if you were really their friend you would want the best for them wouldn't you?
Reply

Muhammad
11-25-2006, 11:01 AM
Greetings and :sl: ,

It is wrong to over-generalise (in response to deleted posts). Non-Muslims do talk about things considered sinful in Islam, which is a reason why we should distance ourselves from them and surround ourselves with people that encourage us to be good Muslims; but at the same time there are many good non-Muslims whom we can talk to, not necessarily as closest friends, but maintaining a bond of friendship to some degree often opens the door to good communication and understanding. Sometimes the people we work with are those that drink and enjoy sin, but it does not mean we should never speak to them nor try to maintain some kind of a bridge over which we can fulfil our responsilility to teach Islam.
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Jameel
11-25-2006, 01:40 PM
yeah good point muhammad, but me personally, i completely hate being in the company of them. Because i am in college at the moment, the kuffar here, are going through that stage, where they just want to go out and party all day, go drinking late night at the pub, night clubs, talk of extreme filth all the time, with no shame at all.
Its disgusting.
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SirZubair
11-25-2006, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Jameel
yeah good point muhammad, but me personally, i completely hate being in the company of them. Because i am in college at the moment, the kuffar here, are going through that stage, where they just want to go out and party all day, go drinking late night at the pub, night clubs, talk of extreme filth all the time, with no shame at all.
Its disgusting.

Just remember, there will be a time and place when you will need the help of the 'kuffar'. Imagine that you are driving down the road...

*CRASH*

You've run into a tree. You are bleeding from top to bottom,..

..a 'kuffar' that saw the accident calls an ambulance,..

.. the 'kuffar' ambulance driver puts his life to risk and rushes over to rescue you.

After a long hard struggle, they manage to get you out of the Car.

You have lost alot of blood,.. so they pump some blood into your body,... yep, some 'kuffar' blood..

.. and then you get to live to see another day.

So the moral of the story is,.. don't be a hater. It is not what the Prophet (saw) preached to us, he did not tell us to hate the company of non-muslims.

So come on akhi, don't be a hater, be a play'a congradulator...:okay:
Reply

justahumane
11-27-2006, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings and :sl: ,

It is wrong to over-generalise (in response to deleted posts). Non-Muslims do talk about things considered sinful in Islam, which is a reason why we should distance ourselves from them and surround ourselves with people that encourage us to be good Muslims; but at the same time there are many good non-Muslims whom we can talk to, not necessarily as closest friends, but maintaining a bond of friendship to some degree often opens the door to good communication and understanding. Sometimes the people we work with are those that drink and enjoy sin, but it does not mean we should never speak to them nor try to maintain some kind of a bridge over which we can fulfil our responsilility to teach Islam.

Well brother, I agree that non-muslims do talk about things that are sinful as per Islamic standards. therefore muslims should distance themselves from them. But at the same time, there are almost equal no. of muslims who are worse than non-muslims in talking about sinful things. In my opinion those muslims are worse than their non-muslim counterparts, coz at least non-muslims dont believe their actions as sinful.

So my humble questions is, should good muslims like brother jameel maintain equal distance with those muslims too? or parameter of tolrance should be decided only in accordance with names, I mean if someone with a non-muslim name is doing sinful things a good muslim like brother jameel should HATE his company and brand all non-muslim like him, and if someone with a muslim name is doing same acts than brother jameel should remember that hatred is unislamic?:-\

Regards.
Reply

Muhammad
11-27-2006, 09:32 PM
Greetings justahumane,

If I am not mistaken, a Muslim who performs sinful actions and acknowledges those actions as being sinful is better than a Muslim who does not believe he is commiting a sin by doing them. This is because the first type of person will accept the Islamic rulings and will perhaps simply be suffering from weak faith, whereas the other person will be rejecting the teachings of Islam.

So if we had two people who drank alcohol: one a non-Muslim and the other a Muslim, then a good Muslim will have a common ground with the sinful Muslim because they both believe in Allaah, so this reduces the distance between them and allows the good Muslim to advise his brother and help him to become stronger in faith. With a non-Muslim, more effort would be needed to first explain what Islam is before advising the abstinence from alcohol. So we can see that the two are very different people and in my opinion, equal distancing is not befitting for this reason.

I mean if someone with a non-muslim name is doing sinful things a good muslim like brother jameel should HATE his company and brand all non-muslim like him
A good Muslim should hate the action, and not brand all non-Muslims on the basis of one person.

And Allaah Knows best.
Reply

shanu
11-28-2006, 05:54 AM
Assalamu alaikum
i wrote the whole intrepration in a previous forum i shall give u the link and paste it here

Assalamu alaikum
I was reading through the surah 5 of the Quran

And in the translation i saw this part

Quote:
005.054 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
Then i was wondering, how come? As i clearly know that Allah is not unjust
then i read the other parts

Quote:
005.058 Your (real) friends are (no less than) God, His Apostle, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
005.059 As to those who turn (for friendship) to God, His Apostle, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of God that must certainly triumph.

005.060 O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed).

005.061 When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.

-----

Then only i realised, what the surah was saying that we are not to take friends who mock our faith and religion, as if we move with them, we begin to lose faith in ourselves. And this was not referring to peaceful Christians and jews who dont mock us for our religion, and we can be friends with them.



Quote:
005.085 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

005.086 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

005.087 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

005.088 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

I started reading because i have an old uncle in london who says that we are not to have friends from other faith, I found this a little extreme, as i have full faith that Allah is most just. Well from what i understand here, The Quran actually referred to "friends" who mock our religion and make fun of us, and make us feel low abt ourselves. Truly, they cant be friends at all, as friends are those who support one another no matter where they come from. Friends are those who support and believe in us. Like for an example, a christian who does nothing to shake ur faith in ur religion, andwho doesnt mock you and support you when help is needed. Now that is what this is reffering to.

One fine example is our Prophet Mohammed pbuh, a man who lived like a walking Quran.

It was in Madinah that the Prophet (PBUH) received envoys and emissaries from various tribes and nationals, asking matters of various sorts, demanding dialogues, negotiations etc. Among the emissaries were an envoy representing the Christian community in Najran (South Arabia). The Prophet (PBUH) welcomed them, entertained them as honoured guests and even allowed them to conduct their religious service in his city.

It was a good occasion to share each other's views on matters of religion. Some members of the envoy were deeply impressed by the treatment they received from the Muslims, thus leading them to embrace Islam.

Some people take a dim view on islam, as they feel we were told to hate christians and jews, and not take them as friends. As you can see from above, The prophet treated them kindly and didnt kill them nor hate them for the differnt faiths they emerge from, Instead, he embraced them and treated them with honour. Like i said earlier, what they are reffering to is people who mock you and make you feel stupid. Such are not friends at all. There are even Christians in this forum who speak kindly to us, furthermore some of us muslims today were jews and christians before.

Allah knows best

Peace on you all
Reply

Hijrah
01-18-2007, 08:21 PM
I can understand what many of you are saying about dealing with non-muslims but some of them i am not so sure about, it is obviously wrong to integrate and become like them but what about just simply being friends with them, some of the sites i am seeing such as the one zubair posted says that such friendship is allowed and permissible, but other sites such as islamqa say that we can not be "friends" with them even in the general terms. as for that islamtoday link, it is obviously possible to not hate someone but at the same time not befriend them, so my question is in the general term friends, is such a relationship allowed between a Muslim and kaafir and to what extent can it go?

in the past this kind of issue has confused me, i remember at one summer program i attended when i was younger, they even said we should hate the kuffar in our hearts but at the same time be nice to them, i went back home and told my fam and friends this and they got pretty mad, the person who said it was not a scholar either and another teacher at an Islaamic school said that to hate Allaah's creation in such a way is wrong.
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Woodrow
01-18-2007, 10:19 PM
It all depends on how we view people. We can look and see an enemy of Islam in every person who is not Muslim or we can look and see a chance to share our love of Islam.

Remember without Kafir in this world we would not have the gift of giving Da'wah. By giving Da'wah we are sharing the greatest thing we have with a non-Believer. Do we give gifts to those we hate?

The word Friend has so many connontations, perhaps we are in need of a new word that reflects how we can care about people that are not Muslim.

We need to have some type of care about non-Muslims if we truly desire that they learn the Joy and love of Islam.
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-19-2007, 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by Hijrah
I can understand what many of you are saying about dealing with non-muslims but some of them i am not so sure about, it is obviously wrong to integrate and become like them but what about just simply being friends with them, some of the sites i am seeing such as the one zubair posted says that such friendship is allowed and permissible, but other sites such as islamqa say that we can not be "friends" with them even in the general terms. as for that islamtoday link, it is obviously possible to not hate someone but at the same time not befriend them, so my question is in the general term friends, is such a relationship allowed between a Muslim and kaafir and to what extent can it go?

in the past this kind of issue has confused me, i remember at one summer program i attended when i was younger, they even said we should hate the kuffar in our hearts but at the same time be nice to them, i went back home and told my fam and friends this and they got pretty mad, the person who said it was not a scholar either and another teacher at an Islaamic school said that to hate Allaah's creation in such a way is wrong.
How about a non-Muslim reply? I have read all the posts and links. And I have Muslim friends. Some of these friends are just mere acquaintances, people I am friendly with, but I couldn't even tell you their full name. Others are so close as to have become family. And no Imam has suggested that those relationships be severed.

The problem you are having comes as a result of two things, the inherent problem of translation that is present in any language, not just Arabic. But the other is cultural context. Because even with a good translation, the cutlural context has changed so much since the Qu'ran's writing as to require a second level of interpretaion even if you were a native Arabic speaker. As you are from the USA, I will try to put what I got out of all of those links in a 21st century American cultural context.

You know how one group of people in the USA will use the term "brother" or "sister" differently from another group. Both Muslims and Christians use the terms to refer to other members of their own communities. The terms are of course used within families to refer to siblings. And the term is sometimes used by black Americans to simply refer to any other black American, even if completely unknown to one another. So, too this Arabic term that is translated "friend" can have different meanings depending on who is using it and how.

It seems to me, that Muhammad is saying that one can have relationships with non-Muslims, but that one's primary identity is still to be a Muslim and thus one's closest affilations should naturally be among those that today you refer to as a "brother" or "sister" in Islam. That does not preclude you from having friendships outside the Ummah, but that these should be secondary to those you have within the Ummah, excepting those relationships that help you to share Islam with others.

Now, I will accept correction, but that is the gist of what I get from the totality of the discussion.
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aamirsaab
01-19-2007, 03:18 PM
:sl:
Since primary school, I've had non-muslim friends. I still do to this day.

I don't discriminate based on creed, colour, race or gender. Only on actions.

hmm, I wonder just how many people I've ticked off with this post. A high number would really make me laugh.
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truthbetold
01-21-2007, 03:12 AM
Grace Seeker...here is a non-muslim reply, such as you have requested. I recently began a new career about 2 years ago in a strictly commission based field. Things were very slow for me and I had very little knowledge. Then one day I befriended a Muslim who was willing to teach me a great amount and even take me on as a business parter. Because of her kindness,patience, and generosity, I have been much more successful than I ever would have been on my own. I shared similar political views, such as agreement to the horrendous situation in Palestine and the apparent war against Islam going on in the world today, but I was still amazed at her and her families willingness to be so warm and helpful to someone of another faith(Judiasm) Perhaps I was so shocked because since they are Palestinian, I feared they may somehow hold deep hatred for a Jew, considering the situation in Israel/Palestine and the hardships their family has suffered at the hands of...my people....so to say. Im getting off topic with this but my point is that I am very grateful for the fact that they had a great understanding of their religion and were open to taking a non-believer as a friend and business associate. Occassionally she would teach me certain aspects of Islam and sayings of the Prophet(PBUH), never forcing her beliefs on me but simply engaging me in conversation and opening up my mind to a religion I've had almost no knowledge of. Also a few months ago I met another Muslim who had actually never even spoken to a Jew before and was very surprised to see how well we were able to get along. They were kind enough to give me the Quran as a gift one day and I have been reading it on a daily basis and learning as much about Islam as possible. I was never very much in tune with or compelled to my religion and I feel like Islam is something which I will one day be able to fully embrace. Sorry for the long and boring story but I guess my whole point is that if these people didnt take it upon themselves to be kind and friendly to a non-believer, then I probably be in a terrible financial situation, have 2 less friends, and still be completely in the dark about such a beautiful religion(Islam)
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truthbetold
01-21-2007, 03:14 AM
sorry Grace Seeker....after reading your post I realize now that you WERE the non-muslim reply. i will read a little more carefully next time but atleast now my story has been shared to anyone who may find it of interest.
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SoyBoricua
03-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I won't go into why Arabic was selected However the same problem exists in all languages. No language can be translatered accuratly into another language. Often a literal word translation results in the wrong meaning, or trying to express the meaning results in the wrong word. Some modern examples: There is no English word for the German word Weltgeist. The English word for a speed bump in the road comes out as a sleeping policeman in chinese. The conscept of a non-conformist in Chines translates into English as an unbridled horse.


3:28. Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation


4:139. Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:144. O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Show me where any of those say we are forbidden to have a non-believer as a friend. Don't they all just say that we should not value a non-believer over a believer? Can you see any reason why we should not be forbidden to value non-believers over a believer. Is that not the same as saying to a Christian that he should not place non-Christians over his fellow Christians?
Umm... Nope it is not! Not by any stretch of the imagination! In fact when it comes to Christians the message is of love and compassion for all regardless.
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Woodrow
03-04-2007, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by SoyBoricua
Umm... Nope it is not! Not by any stretch of the imagination! In fact when it comes to Christians the message is of love and compassion for all regardless.
That is true, but having love and compassion for all people is not the same as having all people as close associates. Would you not prefer to have people that share things in common as close associates?
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Grace Seeker
03-05-2007, 12:19 AM
Woodrow,

Actually the only time I can think of Christian being counseled to not associate with non-Christians is the following verse:
2 Corinthians 6

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
Of course, it is a pretty strong verse. Christians have been arguing with one another over how to interpret it ever since Paul wrote it. Some understand it to mean not to marry a non-Christian (of course many do). Some think it means not to hang around with non-Christians as your best buds (of course many Christians do that as well). Some don't understand it, and prefer just to ignore it.

Personally, I think it is cautioning against any sort of involvement that one cannot walk away from if one needs to. And, for me, the reasoning is simple: non-Christians will get involved in things that Christians know and understand that they should not. In those circumstances we need to be free to walk away and not be a part of such unrighteous (the Muslim would say "haraam") behavior. If one is yoked, like cattle are yoked, then one is lock in and may not be able to avoid it. So, don't be yoked to non-Christians. Beyond that, one is free to associate with whomever, as long as one practices Christian living at the same time.
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Woodrow
03-05-2007, 12:35 AM
Peace,

We are just having a difference of semantics over the words, associate, associated etc. I think I can express what I mean with in this manner.

We will always associate with our associates. However, some people we associate with may not be our associates. Who we are willing to associate with, may not always be a person we would have as an associate.

The word associate carries a stronger connotation than saying a person we associate with. In order to have a person as an associate, there has to be much sharing of something in common.

I think the best example would be if say you and I were neighbors and good friends. Although we enjoy each others company and have respect for each other. Who would you prefer to teach your children about Christianity, me or the Pastor of your Church.

That is one example about what I meant about Christians not having non-Christians as associates, same for us as not having non-Muslims as associates. We can associate with each other, but we would never be able to be actual associates in many areas.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-05-2007, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace,

We are just having a difference of semantics over the words, associate, associated etc. I think I can express what I mean with in this manner.

We will always associate with our associates. However, some people we associate with may not be our associates. Who we are willing to associate with, may not always be a person we would have as an associate.

The word associate carries a stronger connotation than saying a person we associate with. In order to have a person as an associate, there has to be much sharing of something in common.

I think the best example would be if say you and I were neighbors and good friends. Although we enjoy each others company and have respect for each other. Who would you prefer to teach your children about Christianity, me or the Pastor of your Church.

That is one example about what I meant about Christians not having non-Christians as associates, same for us as not having non-Muslims as associates. We can associate with each other, but we would never be able to be actual associates in many areas.

Woodrow,
:sl:

I've read enough of your posts that I think I can safely say you and I are on the same page on this one.

I would not want a non-Christian to be teaching Sunday school in my church. I wouldn't even want a nominal Christian (some one who was a Christian in name only, simply because of the cultue they were raised in) to be the one placed in the position of being responsible for teaching others about the Christian faith.

I while it would be his/her own decision, I would counsel against a Christian marrying a non-Christian, or even a non-practicing Christian, simply because of the closeness of that relationship and the choices they will have to make together on which they may find it impossible to agree.

But for all other things I would welcome you as a Muslim into my family without any reservation whatsoever. (And if my daughter would choose to marry you -- well I would just pray that it is my Muslim daughter not my Buddhist daughter who makes that decision. :D )
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SoyBoricua
03-05-2007, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Woodrow,
:sl:

I've read enough of your posts that I think I can safely say you and I are on the same page on this one.

I would not want a non-Christian to be teaching Sunday school in my church. I wouldn't even want a nominal Christian (some one who was a Christian in name only, simply because of the cultue they were raised in) to be the one placed in the position of being responsible for teaching others about the Christian faith.

I while it would be his/her own decision, I would counsel against a Christian marrying a non-Christian, or even a non-practicing Christian, simply because of the closeness of that relationship and the choices they will have to make together on which they may find it impossible to agree.

But for all other things I would welcome you as a Muslim into my family without any reservation whatsoever. (And if my daughter would choose to marry you -- well I would just pray that it is my Muslim daughter not my Buddhist daughter who makes that decision. :D )
Whoa, there's a huge difference in having non christians etc as friends and getting married to them be it atheists,Budhists or even muslims themselves. The bible makes a a great example of this with the this verse from Corinthians:
2Co 6:14 Be1096 ye not3361 unequally yoked together2086 with unbelievers:571 for1063 what5101 fellowship3352 hath righteousness1343 with2532 unrighteousness?458 and1161 what5101 communion2842 hath light5457 with4314 darkness?4655
Just FYI
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-05-2007, 01:38 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)



&&&

Originally Posted by nishom
Salaam,

what is it meant when in the Quran it says not to take for friends disbelievers?

......My closest friend is a non Muslim.
&&

pl.visit this link.

Fred - United States

Does the Qur'an Hate People of the Book?


Ans: Shahul Hameed


The Qur’an does not condemn the Semitic race; in fact it accords Jews a special status, given their shared prophetic traditions with Islam.



The Qur’an criticizes only those Jews and Christians who turned away from God’s authentic message and admonishes those who scorned and ridiculed Prophet Muhammad and the message of the Qur’an.


And what is more, the Qur’an specifically notes that such criticism is not directed against all Jews. You often see the expression *{among them there are some...}* placed before such criticisms, so that the good are not condemned along with the bad.


From the Qur’anic point of view, the Jews are descendants of Prophet Abraham, through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob.


They were chosen by God for a mission (Qur’an 44:32), and God raised among them many prophets and bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others (Qur’an 5:20). He exalted them over other nations of the earth (Qur’an 2:47, 122) and granted them many favors.


I quote Harun Yahya when he says :

“Concerning the People of the Book, God gives Muslims a command in the Qur’an; to rally to a common formula, when He says what means:

*{O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God...

(Aal `Imran 3:64)



This is, indeed, our call to Christians and Jews: As people who believe in God and follow His revelations, let us rally to a common formula—faith. Let’s love God, Who is our Creator and Lord, and follow His commands. And let us pray God to lead us to an even straighter path.

When Muslims, Christians, and Jews rally to a common formula this way; when they understand that they are friends not enemies; when they see that the real enemy is atheism and paganism; then the world will become a very different place.



http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

Reply

Joe98
03-11-2007, 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by Jameel
i completely hate being in the company of them.

….the kuffar here, are going through that stage, where they just want to go out and party all day, go drinking late night at the pub, night clubs, talk of extreme filth all the time,

I am an atheist and too find those actions disgusting. When I was 20 I did something about it.

I found a group of people of similar age and their main interests are hiking, cycling, skiing and travelling.

Together with other stuff such as white water rafting, abseiling and other fun things!

When you are out in the wilderness for days on end, nobody carries alcohol. And we are all a polite group and don’t talk filthy.

Our group now has been friends for 25 years. Over the years many people have come and gone from our group. Not one has been a Muslim.

In the wilderness where there is no alcohol and lots of friendship there are no Muslims.

And yet the local Muslims claim they are “cut off” from my society.

-
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westcoast
03-22-2007, 01:49 AM
i dont understand why there would even be such a thing taught
Jesus preached tolerance and acceptance, if he's accepted as at least a prophet of the religion doesnt that contradict the quoted passage?
and if the quote isnt "translated correctly" then the claim that the Qu'ran is plain and simple to understand is false, regardless of how accurate the translation is. The fact that you need to learn arabic before you can grasp the teachings of Islam is ridiculous, who has time to learn a new language? how inconvenient is it for anybody who's actually interested in Islam to know that any translation they might have is probably inaccurate.
Reply

Woodrow
03-22-2007, 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by westcoast
i dont understand why there would even be such a thing taught
Jesus preached tolerance and acceptance, if he's accepted as at least a prophet of the religion doesnt that contradict the quoted passage?
and if the quote isnt "translated correctly" then the claim that the Qu'ran is plain and simple to understand is false, regardless of how accurate the translation is. The fact that you need to learn arabic before you can grasp the teachings of Islam is ridiculous, who has time to learn a new language? how inconvenient is it for anybody who's actually interested in Islam to know that any translation they might have is probably inaccurate.
Peace,

Islam also teaches peace and tolerance. The concept of friend as mentioned in the Qur'an is a much deeper connotation then what is carried by the English word friend.

Our concept of a Wahli(Friend) is that of a person we will choose as our guardian and protector. The person we would trust to be able to teach our children Islamic teachings in the event we can not. People we would trust to select a husband or wife for us. People that we would be willing to trust to guide us on the path of Islam.

Now why the Qur'an stays in Arabic? Because all translations carry the thoughts of the translator and become interpretations and not the original connontations.

It is for this reason that Jews will only consider the OT (Torah) to be valid in the original Hebrew.

There is much confusion with the NT as the Earliest writings known to exist are in Greek. But, we know that Isa(as) and his Apostles spoke Aramaic. It would be far better if the original Aramaic words had been preserved.
Reply

barney
03-26-2007, 03:22 AM
I found the Admins explaination of this text interesting. The translation into english is a moot point, I'm happy to accept that the root of the arabic word has a equal in "Gaurdian" or Protector" or "Freind". Several other sites and responses from clerics would confirm this.

I know that it's not possible to give a truely definative answer, but it's non the less an important question.

Bearing in mind the context of the revalation: That it was at a time when Mohammed PBUH was at war with those who rejected his revalations. It's understandable that it should have come about. A verse encouraging relations with the "enemy" at that time would be illogical.

But......Was the verse intended to be a continual instruction, or only to last until the war was over? If the former, what impact has this had on subsequent history?

Apologies if this appears confrontational, but it is one of the areas of Islam that, despite several years of research, I'm still at a loss to understand.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
03-26-2007, 04:53 AM
doesntit mean like dont take them as protectors or something instead of friends?
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barney
03-26-2007, 05:19 AM
Yep, I think thats closer to the translation. Gaurdians or protectors.
Still weather its Protector or Freind...., based on the context as per the explaination of the admins and indeed many others, was it meant therefore as a revalation specifically for that time or for all time?
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Woodrow
03-26-2007, 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Yep, I think thats closer to the translation. Gaurdians or protectors.
Still weather its Protector or Freind...., based on the context as per the explaination of the admins and indeed many others, was it meant therefore as a revalation specifically for that time or for all time?
In my opinion, Astragfirullah, it is meant for all time. But, we also have very strict rulings to treat non-believers with respect and fairly. For the normal connotation of the English word friend I believe there is no restriction, Astragfirullah.
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barney
03-26-2007, 05:55 AM
Thanks for the reply. It's a awkward thing that the word has no exact equivilant in English, (or french or whatever) because., Gaurdiun of course relates to someone appointed to watch over someone, and it is forbidden in Islam for a unbeleiver to be appointed to that position over a beleiver. Protector again defines a submissive role to the protected, so it's much the same problem.

I'm sure i am not quite getting it in context.would a accurate description be that Muhammed PBUH basically revealed that Muslims should not be allies with jews or christians? Because they were allies to each other? In context that, to me, fits the situation at the time.

There has been of course many times where Christians and Muslims have indeed been allies. Kosovo and the Gulf the most recent examples.

There is also, I consider a large difference between respect or fairness and freindship.
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Woodrow
03-26-2007, 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Thanks for the reply. It's a awkward thing that the word has no exact equivilant in English, (or french or whatever) because., Gaurdiun of course relates to someone appointed to watch over someone, and it is forbidden in Islam for a unbeleiver to be appointed to that position over a beleiver. Protector again defines a submissive role to the protected, so it's much the same problem.

I'm sure i am not quite getting it in context.would a accurate description be that Muhammed PBUH basically revealed that Muslims should not be allies with jews or christians? Because they were allies to each other? In context that, to me, fits the situation at the time.

There has been of course many times where Christians and Muslims have indeed been allies. Kosovo and the Gulf the most recent examples.

There is also, I consider a large difference between respect or fairness and freindship.
One clarification first.

Muhammed PBUH basically revealed
we don't believe Muhammad(PBUH) revealed anything. All was reveraled by Allah(swt) , Muhammad(PBUH) was simply the messenger. i.e. Muhammad(PBUH) was the mail man, Allah(swt) was the author and the Qur'an was the Mail.


Historically I can think of several times when Muslims have fought common enemies with Jews and Christians.


In my opinion it is not so much that Jews and Christians were allies with each other but the fact that both had made errors in the Word of Allah(swt) that had been revealed to them. There is a kinship Muslims recognize as having with both as it is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Jewish, Christian or Sabian woman as they all worship the same God(swt) who is worshiped by Muslims.

I am really not knowledgeable enough in the Qur'an to answer your question in much more depth. Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will see this and help fill in the large gaps I have left.
Reply

جوري
03-26-2007, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
I am an atheist and too find those actions disgusting. When I was 20 I did something about it.

I found a group of people of similar age and their main interests are hiking, cycling, skiing and travelling.

Together with other stuff such as white water rafting, abseiling and other fun things!

When you are out in the wilderness for days on end, nobody carries alcohol. And we are all a polite group and don’t talk filthy.

Our group now has been friends for 25 years. Over the years many people have come and gone from our group. Not one has been a Muslim.

In the wilderness where there is no alcohol and lots of friendship there are no Muslims.

And yet the local Muslims claim they are “cut off” from my society.

-
How do you know that Muslims are cut off from society, if you don't see any of them in your neck of woods and they are not in your circle of friends? or are you really good at presumptions and conjectures?--- Not that this is a part of the topics but prophet Mohammed PBUH... emphasized the importance of sports stating (3alimo awaldakoum asibha, alremaya wa rikoob alkhyl) Teach your young, swimming, archery, and horse back riding.
Nothing about being a Muslim would preclude one from becoming an excellent sportsman or woman along with all the other religious duties. I am yet to meet with these so-called isolated and cut off Muslims-- for someone who spends supposedly a great deal outside, you still carry all the stereo types of a couch potato ---“Those who visit foreign nations,/but who associate only with their own countrymen,/change their climate, but not their customs;/ they see new meridians, but the same men;/and with heads as empty as their pockets,/ return home with traveled bodies, but untraveled minds.” -Colton


peace
Reply

Muezzin
03-27-2007, 08:59 PM
I look at and care for my non-Muslim associates as dear friends.

I look at and care for my Muslim associates as brothers.
Reply

samah12
03-27-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kidman
"O' Ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your Wali (Leaders): They are but Wali's (Leaders) to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

So, let them be leaders of each other, and don't be lead by them. Basically, don't let them make up decisions for you, like a Wali does. A Wali is like a Parent, Guardian, Leader figure. So like a boss isn't even considered a Wali, it's close but not really meant as a boss, or anything like that, its more powerful than a boss.

And then it says that whoever turns to them, is one of them... meaning Christian or Jew. Then the next part says that Allah doesn't guide a person that is unjust... I don't believe it is specifically talking about all Christians or Jews, just the ones that are unjust. I mean, if we go back in time, all true Muslims were Jews and Christians at one time, before the true religion that Moses and Jesus preached became tampered.

Kidman
You are the voice of reason Kidman, thank you, May Allah bless you for your understanding.
Reply

barney
03-28-2007, 12:39 AM
http://www.quransearch.com/sami_zaatri/friends.htm

A full explaination of wali is here. The word means :
"Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".

So it has multiple meanings and can have, unfortunatly, multiple interpretations. Regardless of this explaination, It is used by extremists and quoted on a daily basis by them as a good solid reason for their hatred.
One interpretation of these words could be that A close and intimate relationship with unbelivers is forbidden.
Alternatively, that a muslim must never let themselves be put in a position of subverity under a jew or christian. (which would make intergrating Muslims into christian countries workforce impossible unless they all had management positions.)

Any way that it is read, it's not the qurans favorite surah for those who seek good relationships with the ummah, and it's prime food for those who portray Islam as a intolerant religion.

I note that The Bibles verses have changed over the years as new editions are brought out and translated from hebrew to latin to english and then updating the language to appeal to changing times. there is a considerable toning down of the fire and brimstone in the old testament to bring it into line with the message of tolerance in the New testament.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-28-2007, 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by barney
The Bibles changes every 40 years or so they keep watering down the verses to make the Old testament less fire and punishment and a bit more New Testamenty. "love Peace & fluffyness". It's a terrible mismatch, If you read the Bible straight through from Old to New, you have to take a massive slice of gullible pie to think they are talking about the same God. On one page he's wiping populations out left right and centre and promising eternal flame, a few pages after he's offering salvation and turning the other cheek.

Ri-i-ight (sarcasm intended). Give us a few more years and we'll turn hell into a vacation spot for those who don't like winter.
Reply

barney
03-28-2007, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Ri-i-ight (sarcasm intended). Give us a few more years and we'll turn hell into a vacation spot for those who don't like winter.
Yeah, after i posted this i had a think about what i wrote, and i'd like to retract the post if a mod will delete it for me.

It's not that I dont stand by what I say, its just it's probably not the smartest thing to voice openly:X After all, it is a religious board.

Perhaps a theme for another thread, but toning it down to have a little bit more respect.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-28-2007, 02:06 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&



related links:

How Should Muslims Deal with Non-Muslims?


"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you in the matters of your religion and those who did not expel you from your homes,
that you show them courtesy and kindness and act justly with them because Allah loves those who are Just." (Al-Mumtahanah: 8)



So those who respect your religion and human rights, then you should deal with them in kindness and courtesy and have good dealings with them especially in matters of human welfare and well-being.

Allah says, "Co-operate with each other in matters of righteousness and piety and do not co-operate in matters of aggression and sin." (Al-Ma’idah: 2)



When you are with them (non-Muslims) it does not mean you forget your religion. So when it is time to pray you must pray. When eating with them be sure to observe the Halal.


If there is a mixed gathering of males and females, remember to observe the Islamic manners of how to act in such instances. Remember that Islam commands good behavior and good dealings with all people."



http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503546344

Do Muslims Hate non-Muslims?

Question: I am an American Christian and willing to accept Islam but I have one question in my mind.....Why Muslims hate Non-Muslims? Please answer my questions ASAP.

Name of Counsellor: Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi


Muslims hate Kufr, or disbelief in Allah, the Almighty. Since we love all people, we hate their disobedience of Allah, the Most High.


So, even when people deny the existence of Allah we do not hate them personally; however, we hate their disbelief and disobedience of Allah, Exalted be He.


This case is very similar to that of a doctor and a patient. The doctor does not hate the patient or the sick person himself or herself, rather he or she hates the disease and tries every possible means to cure the disease and help the patient to recover.


We Muslims hate disbelief and disobedience of Allah and we are striving and sparing no effort to do away with this disease and cure people’s sickness and help them become obedient servants of Allah (God).

http://www.islamicboard.com/newreply...ote=1&p=531938
Reply

barney
03-28-2007, 02:51 AM
Whats the correct original arabic of this one?
005.080
Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.

I assume that in these ones below it's the same wali?
005.081
If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

009.023
O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.


This one is worded differently in translation....how does it equate to wali?

003.118
O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

From the hadiths
Dawud Book 41, Number 4815:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace beupon him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend.

Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"



Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 572:
Narrated 'Ali:

Allah's Apostle sent me, Az-Zubair and Al-Miqdad saying, "Proceed till you reach Rawdat Khakh where there is a lady carrying a letter, and take that (letter) from her." So we proceeded on our way with our horses galloping till we reached the Rawda, and there we found the lady and said to her, "Take out the letter." She said, "I have no letter." We said, "Take out the letter, or else we will take off your clothes." So she took it out of her braid, and we brought the letter to Allah's Apostle . The letter was addressed from Hatib, bin Abi Balta'a to some pagans of Mecca, telling them about what Allah's Apostle intended to do. Allah's Apostle said, "O Hatib! What is this?" Hatib replied, "O Allah's Apostle! Do not make a hasty decision about me. I was a person not belonging to Quraish but I was an ally to them from outside and had no blood relation with them, and all the Emigrants who were with you, have got their kinsmen (in Mecca) who can protect their families and properties. So I liked to do them a favor so that they might protect my relatives as I have no blood relation with them. I did not do this to renegade from my religion (i.e. Islam) nor did I do it to choose Heathenism after Islam." Allah's Apostle said to his companions." As regards him, he (i.e. Hatib) has told you the truth." 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! Allow me to chop off the head of this hypocrite!" The Prophet said, "He (i.e. Hatib) has witnessed the Badr battle (i.e. fought in it) and what could tell you, perhaps Allah looked at those who witnessed Badr and said, "O the people of Badr (i.e. Badr Muslim warriors), do what you like, for I have forgiven you. "Then Allah revealed the Sura:--

"O you who believe! Take not my enemies And your enemies as friends offering them (Your) love even though they have disbelieved in that Truth (i.e. Allah, Prophet Muhammad and this Quran) which has come to you ....(to the end of Verse)....(And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray (away) from the Straight Path." (60.1

Which in a nutshell would be that the muslims intercepted a letter to the heathens and threatened the girl, they saw who had written it and the guy was captured & accused of freindship with the unbeleivers.The verse was revealed and Hatib was executed. which puts the verse into context.

A lot of these I see rotate around the wali and some not so much it would appear.
Reply

Woodrow
03-28-2007, 05:41 AM
Greetings Barney,

I will start first with 5:80

I don't have Arabic script on my keyboard so I'll copy the transliteration from M. Abdul Haleem Eliysee. I find his transliterations to be close to the Arabic pronunciation

Taraa kasiiram-minhum yata-wallaw-nallaziina kafaruu. Labi-as maaa qaddamat lahum anfusuhum an-sakhi-tallahu alayhim wa fil-azaabi hum kahaalidum.

5:80. Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide. S P


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
Now look at the Transliteration in bold and compare it to Ali's translation in bold. You will notice that wallaw-nallaziina is translated as "turning in friendship to" I hope you can see that wallaw comes from the same root as walli and that the level of friendship spoken of is more in terms of "having as a walli"
Reply

Woodrow
03-28-2007, 05:55 AM
Now let us look at a transliteration of 5-81

Wa law kaanuu yu'minuuna billahi wan-nabiyyi wa maaa unzila ilayhi mattakhazuuhum awkiyaa-a wa laakinna kasiiram-minhum faasiquun.

5:81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers. S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
It is still in reference to 5:80, except now we are not calling them Wali, we are describing them as people with the characteristics of friends and protectors, or if translated into more depth would be describing them as having the characteristics of a wali.

It is like calling somebody a Parent in one sentence and then in the next saying it was the closest femal ancestor who loved the child in another sentence.(That is an analogy, not a translation, trying to show a point)
Reply

Woodrow
03-28-2007, 06:18 AM
9:23

Yaaa -ayyu-hallaziina aamanuu laa tattakhizuu aa-baaa-akum wa ikwaa-nakum aw-liyaaa-a inis-tahabbukufra alal-iimaan. Wa manyyatawalla -hum-minkum fa-ulaaa ika humuz-zaaalimuun.

9:23. O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong. S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
If you look at the bold parts it is showing not to have some body Protect you, if they are not a wali.
Reply

Woodrow
03-28-2007, 07:00 AM
3:118

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola tattakhithoo bitanatan min doonikum laya/loonakum khabalan waddoo ma AAanittum qad badatialbaghdao min afwahihim wama tukhfee sudooruhumakbaru qad bayyanna lakumu al-ayati inkuntum taAAqiloona



3:118. O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom. S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
this is about something different. It is not the concept of taking friends or walis. To understand 3:118 better it is best not to take it out of context.


3
:116. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They will be companions of the Fire,-dwelling therein (for ever). S P C

3:117. What they spend in the life of this (material) world May be likened to a wind which brings a nipping frost: It strikes and destroys the harvest of men who have wronged their own souls: it is not Allah that hath wronged them, but they wrong themselves. S P C
3:118. O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom. S P

3:119. Ah! ye are those who love them, but they love you not,- though ye believe in the whole of the Book. When they meet you, they say, "We believe": But when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say: "Perish in you rage; Allah knoweth well all the secrets of the heart." S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
To be honest I am having a difficult time coming up with a proper explanation as to what is meant by rank. In my own thinking I would say that what is meant is more like in terms of equals, but not in the sense of one being superior to the other, but more in the sense of one acting as they believe and those who only give token lipservice and say they believe but do not act as believers.
Reply

barney
03-28-2007, 07:54 AM
Thanks for the translations woody, appreciate it. I'm off to bed now, but i'll get back to you. :D

BTW ranks in english i'm sure you agree relates to belonging to a party. this party being in this case the ummar.
Reply

samah12
03-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Food for thought. For those that say we must not take non Muslims as friends, why then are Muslim men allowed to take a Christian wife and are not allowed to force or demand that she converts to Muslim. It is allowed for her to remain Christian if she chooses.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-28-2007, 03:43 PM


Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by samah12
Food for thought. For those that say we must not take non Muslims as friends, why then are Muslim men allowed to take a Christian wife and are not allowed to force or demand that she converts to Muslim. It is allowed for her to remain Christian if she chooses.


--ya , a good point :statisfie

a little addition: Muslim men are also allowed to marry Jewish women. Muslims are allowed to eat meat slaughtered by Jews & Christians :p

Reply

barney
03-28-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
3:118
To understand 3:118 better it is best not to take it out of context.
.
I wasnt taking it out of context. I have read around it, not just plucking it out on its own.

116 says those without faith will burn in the hell fire
117 says Money wont help them,its their own fault.
118 says Dont be freinds with people not like you. They plot against you
119 says When they talk to you they lie and change their minds behind your back, they are raging and full of hostility.
Reply

Woodrow
03-28-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Thanks for the translations woody, appreciate it. I'm off to bed now, but i'll get back to you. :D

BTW ranks in english i'm sure you agree relates to belonging to a party. this party being in this case the ummar.
I will agre that would be what rank means. But, I don't see loonakum khabalan as having the same connontation of the English work rank.
Reply

AbuAbdallah
03-28-2007, 06:15 PM
salaam,

I didn't like this explanation:

Which in a nutshell would be that the muslims intercepted a letter to the heathens and threatened the girl, they saw who had written it and the guy was captured & accused of freindship with the unbeleivers.The verse was revealed and Hatib was executed. which puts the verse into context.
Hatib was writing a letter that was telling the enemy the details of what the Muslims were planning to do next, which is spying/treason, punishable by execution. Hatib was not executed because the Prophet (SAW) forgave him because he witnessed Badr.

As Muslims, we don't hate kuffar in terms of them as a person, but we hate their kufr. How can you have love for someone who disrespects Allah(SWT) by saying that he has a son, or how can you love someone who insults Allah (SWT) by saying that Allah forgets, or rests, etc.?

Hating someone for their disbelief in no way means that we are disrespectful to them, in fact we should be on our best behavior towards them. Hence, being able to marry from them and eating their meat, etc..

And Allah Knows Best.
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-28-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
As Muslims, we don't hate kuffar in terms of them as a person, but we hate their kufr. How can you have love for someone who disrespects Allah(SWT) by saying that he has a son, or how can you love someone who insults Allah (SWT) by saying that Allah forgets, or rests, etc.?

Hating someone for their disbelief in no way means that we are disrespectful to them, in fact we should be on our best behavior towards them. Hence, being able to marry from them and eating their meat, etc..

And Allah Knows Best.

Interesting that in many ways Muslims and Christians are similar with regard to this principle of the joining of those of the faith with those outside the faith. Christians have the scripture "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers". And by that we counsel caution with respect to certain relationships such as marriage. And I have been known to tell a teenager to watch out who he hangs out with as his best buds based on it too. But we don't say that a person can't be friends with non-Christians.

However, with respect to "hating someone for their disbelief" what Christians counsel is "hate the sin, not the sinner". I think this is different from what AbuAbdallah has spoken of here. For while AbuAbdallah has said that "we don't hate kuffar in terms of them as a person, but we hate their kufr", he still goes on to speak of "Hating someone".

Yes, it is good to see that this does not mean treating a person with disrespect. But to hate means to not accept. And I prefer to think that we accept the person even if we cannot accept what they do. And yes, in the end it might look the same, that is that in the end we may not be able to associate with the person as long as they are attached to their kufr, their sin, or whatever it is you want to call their behavior. But even then, I prefer the attitude of a heart that reaches out not to hate, but to love the person even in the midst of that behavior.

Thoughts?
Reply

samah12
03-28-2007, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Interesting that in many ways Muslims and Christians are similar with regard to this principle of the joining of those of the faith with those outside the faith. Christians have the scripture "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers". And by that we counsel caution with respect to certain relationships such as marriage. And I have been known to tell a teenager to watch out who he hangs out with as his best buds based on it too. But we don't say that a person can't be friends with non-Christians.

However, with respect to "hating someone for their disbelief" what Christian counsel is "hate the sin, not the sinner". I think this is different from what AbuAbdallah has spoken of here. For while AbuAbdallah has said that "we don't hate kuffar in terms of them as a person, but we hate their kufr", he still goes on to speak of "Hating someone".

Yes, it is good to see that this does not mean treating a person with disrespect. But to hate means to not accept. And I prefer to think that we accept the person even if we cannot accept what they do. And yes, in the end it might look the same, that is that in the end we may not be able to associate with the person as long as they are attached to their kufr, their sin, or whatever it is you want to call their behavior. But even then, I prefer the attitude of a heart that reaches out not to hate, but to love the person even in the midst of that behavior.

Thoughts?
I like the term 'hate the sin, not the sinner'. I am friends with Christians but I am careful not to join them in anything I find sinful, eg going to pubs. I may hate their sin of drinking but I could not hate them for it. As they understand I am Muslim when I am with them we go to a cafe for coffee instead. As I understand they are Christian I accept that they wear jeans and don't cover their hair. I believe they commit a sin by saying/believing Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God but should I hate them for their belief? I believe no, when they die they will have to answer for this sin and we all stand alone at judgement. And perhaps Allah will forgive their sins if their good deeds have outweighed their bad and they have truly believed in God - Allah is all forgiving. Did He not forgive a prostitute her sins when she brought water from a well to give to a dog dying of thirst?
Reply

AbuAbdallah
03-28-2007, 09:42 PM
salaam,
And I prefer to think that we accept the person even if we cannot accept what they do.
To be honest, that is similar to what I said about not hating the person but hating their disbelief. I can respect the fact that you are free to believe what you want to believe, but I can not respect what you believe.

And perhaps Allah will forgive their sins if their good deeds have outweighed their bad and they have truly believed in God - Allah is all forgiving.
Allah (SWT) is all forgiving, in fact Allah (SWT) will forgive for anything besides associating partners with Allah, which is unfortunately what your Christian friends do.
Surah 4:48 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.

And Allah Knows Best.
Reply

barney
03-28-2007, 10:40 PM
I have seen a few sources that indeed show that he was executed, but since I cant remember what they were. I'll be back with them at some point.

The term hate the sin but not the sinner is exactly what the christians use to explain that their verses were corrupted by modern thinking.

It's I suppose in a scale of things about as good as things get, for me.

It however dosnt really actually translate to that.
Was Muhammed saying " hate the sin not the sinner", if he had said that or Allah had revealed that, wouldnt the Quran have just said that?

My opinion is that if a creator was talking to humanity, he/she/it would surely call a spade a spade. because if it /she/he was communicating with us, then would know the future.

The entity would indeed know that for over 1300 years if it wasnt actually written in a certain text (non arabic)then the world would be cast into a almost ceaseless fight over doctrine and interpretation.That it would result in the deaths of thousands of millions over the ages.
Would he/she want that? Assuming that the entity was (to human standards) merciful and (to human standards "Just")

If not then surely they/it/she/he were committing mankind to war, conflict and sectism. And Although i'm obviously not a deity, (although that would be nice) and therefore unable to comment. To my Human frailty that seems unjust.

(which brings up the concept of Unjustness...who decides that?) Puritan zelots killing "witches" in England in 1670 for showing their ankles?
Was that just? No It was a slaughter of innocent women and intellectuals by a over zealous Christian faith.
Talibanis, flinging stones at adulterers till they were ripped apart? Same for the Incas of South America, Christians and I beleive that the followers of Japanese God-Emperor Tojo in 1936-45, (the worlds most recent effective deity) did fairly well with following a system of " If Your Not With Us Your Against Us"..And Georgey Bush knows how to say that.

It has taken many many years for majority Christianity to slide out of this thinking.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm right. i just wish
that humanity could actually see people as people and not as sinners consdered as such by a untouchable higher power brought to a world by men.

( no female prophets...hmm... thats a new topic!)

Possibly throwing feathers in a hurricane here.
Reply

جوري
03-28-2007, 10:52 PM
man that is a long post and rightfully so... if you wish to learn.... but I will comment on the justice portion if I may-- as per Quran
فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}
[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}
[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


This can be evidenced by a Hadith about Abu Lahab... who used to torture the Prophet PBUH and was in fact mentioned in the Quran ten years prior to his apparent death-- Ample time for him to repent and prove the Quran wrong which he didn't (but I digress) ... however given that on a Monday he spared a slave girl from torture for having heard the news of the birth of a male nephew... so too shall he have his torture lessened in hell on Mondays for having spared her life...

So the one thing we can be assured... is no matter how tyrannical or good, each person will get their dues on the day of judgement which ultimately lies with G-D and is based on intent... otherwise I don't think anyone else here on earth can give you a relative understanding of justice means... short of what we are told to rule by as mandated by Islamic jurisprudence.

Now I have said my peace...
and good night

Reply

AbuAbdallah
03-28-2007, 11:01 PM
The entity would indeed know that for over 1300 years if it wasnt actually written in a certain text (non arabic)then the world would be cast into a almost ceaseless fight over doctrine and interpretation.That it would result in the deaths of thousands of millions over the ages.
Would he/she want that? Assuming that the entity was (to human standards) merciful and (to human standards "Just")
I'm not sure I get what you are saying here, are you blaming the translation of the Qur'an for deaths of thousands and millions?
If not then surely they/it/she/he were committing mankind to war, conflict and sectism. And Although i'm obviously not a deity, (although that would be nice) and therefore unable to comment. To my Human frailty that seems unjust.
Are you blaming God for committing mankind to war?
Reply

barney
03-29-2007, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
I'm not sure I get what you are saying here, are you blaming the translation of the Qur'an for deaths of thousands and millions?
The translations were done hundreds of years after Muhammed (PBUH)'s death. Since then to this day you have Clerics translating the words of the Koran in their own fashion. Some to promote peace, some to promote good.

It's the same with the Bible. Pope Urban the 2nd wasnt averse to the odd scripture to reinforce hate. Thousands died, perhaps hundreds of thousands in the Crusades. (Almost as many as Saddam Hussain killed., Its possible).




Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Are you blaming God for committing mankind to war?
I dont actually beleive that God interacts with us on any form and hasnt for billions of years. (thats my faith), I cant blame him/her/it.

I blame Man. Thats not the extent of it, but i am aware that on a forum such as this to speak freely would transgress bounderies. So perhaps that is enough about who I blame.
Reply

Muezzin
03-29-2007, 12:11 AM
Whoah guys, we seem to have boarded the express train to the land of digressions.
Reply

islamirama
03-29-2007, 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by barney
The translations were done hundreds of years after Muhammed (PBUH)'s death. Since then to this day you have Clerics translating the words of the Koran in their own fashion. Some to promote peace, some to promote good.

It's the same with the Bible. Pope Urban the 2nd wasnt averse to the odd scripture to reinforce hate. Thousands died, perhaps hundreds of thousands in the Crusades. (Almost as many as Saddam Hussain killed., Its possible).
Quran has never been changed in the last 1400yrs and it will never be as promised by Allah. Translations can be done 100 or 1000yrs from today and it still doesn't matter becuase the original copy is in arabic and that is the real Quran. The translation is not regarded as the real quran but rather a just a translation. you should check out these links on history of the Quran.

Brief History of Compilation of the Qur'an
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html
History of the Quran
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/A...an/scriptq.htm
Reply

barney
03-29-2007, 07:43 AM
Yes , i'm aware of the history of the koran, I was referring to it's translation in the sense of what clerics have interpreted it's verses to mean.

I think the original message was clear enough. It meant do not have intimate relationships with the unbeleivers. It also is said about justice and fairness in dealings with unbeleivers.Fine.
I think looking at the revalations in context with what was happening when they were revealed is the way to clarify them.
The Verses that relate to "not taking jews & christians as freind/lord" are Medianan. Revealed at a time when the Prophet (PBUH) was at war with Mecca.

The Verses that relate to good relations were revealed before the Median ones, in Mecca, when the Prophet(PBUH) first preached there and he was gathering his first converts. After the religion was rejected the situation changed, and this might account for the changes in tone of the revalations.

I know I'm going over well trodden ground here! In order to make sense of the "conflicting" messages, they mave to be taken, i feel, into context.
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