Wife beating?

[whitemuslimah]

salaam walaykum,
as you can see from my avatar i am a revert and this ayat was my main obstacle on my way to islam. if you read it carefully, in most of translations it mentions beating of a wife. even though i do understand that it means lightly and not to hurt, i still feel it goes in contradiction with prophet's SAW teachings where women are supposed to be highly respected and beating avoided and never resorted to.

can anyone with a deeper knowledge of islam clarify it for me please as i still can't understand it.

[afriend]

But Allah made this the last resort, as he says "Admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (lastly) beat them"

Also, in the tafsir, it says lightly, and it also states IF IT IS USEFUL!

[afriend]

I also hope that this is useful to you:

Of all the Qur'anic passages about men and women perhaps the one most often misunderstood or misused by both Muslims and non-Muslims is verse 34 of Surah an-Nisa. The English translation of this verse reads as follows:

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

The purpose of this article is to give a detailed commentary on the verse in order to make it better understood.

The verse begins with the statement that "men are qawwamun over women". The root of the key word, qawwamun (pl. of qawwam), is qama which means "to stand or to make something stand or to establish something". It is often used in the Holy Qur'an in the sense of establishing religion or prayer. A related word is qa'im which means "one who stands or makes something stand". Qawwam is an intensive form of qa'im and has a sense of continuity in the action involved. So it means one who is continuously standing over something (as, for example, a guard or caretaker) or one who is continuously making something stand, i.e. is maintaining it. In the Qur'anic usage of qawwam and related words there is almost always present an idea of propriety. For example, aqamah of salah is not only praying but also praying properly. The function of qawwam is also understood in the Qur'an to be characterized by fairness. Thus in 4:134 and 5:8, the only other passages in the Qur'an where the word is used, the believers are told:

"O you who believe! Be qawwamin with fairness..."

"O you who believe! Be qawwamin for God as witnesses to fairness..."

Thus to be a qawwam over something or someone is to guard, maintain or take care of that something or someone in a proper and fair manner. If there is any single word in English that can convey the meaning of the word as used in the present word it is probably the one used by Muhammad Pickthal, namely, guardian.

After stating that men are qawwamun over women the verse goes on to say why this is so. Two reasons are given:

1) "Because God has favored some of them more than others". It is not explicitly stated here who is favored more than whom but in view of the context it is probable that men are understood in some way to be favored more than women. But in what way? Again no answer is given in the verse under consideration or elsewhere in the Qur'an. But we can justifiably take the reference to physical strength and energy in which men generally excel women and which enables men to guard women against some of the dangers to which they may be exposed in society and to take care of some of their needs.

From the statement that God has favored men more than women in some ways we should not conclude, as many careless readers of the Qur'an do, that Islam views men superior to women. For this statement does not exclude the possibility that in some other ways women may be favored more than men. Indeed observation shows that women are in general more patient, caring and have a more developed intuition than men.

Moreover, the Holy Qur'an makes it clear that while there are many favors of God that He bestows on His creatures in different measures, there is only one favor which determines the superiority of one member of the human species over another and that is taqwa or God consciousness. Thus wealth, strength, health, intelligence, position, education, etc. are all favors of God but we cannot say that a wealthier person is superior to a poorer person, a stronger person is superior is superior to a physically feeble person and so on. we can say only that a more muttaqi person is superior to a less muttaqi person. In the words of the Holy Qur'an:

"The nobler among you in the sight of God is the more muttaqi (righteous) among you." (49:13)

Taqwa (righteousness, God consciousness) is that divine favor of God on which the right use of all other favors of God depends. The more of this quality of taqwa a person has the more the other favors of God benefit him.

Thus the fact that man has been favored in some ways more than woman does not automatically make him superior to her. It is only when his taqwa is more than hers that he can from the Qur'anic point of view be considered superior to her. And when a person's taqwa increases to a worthwhile level the question of his superiority does not interest him, for he or she realizes that all praises are due to God.

2) The first reason then why men are qawwamun over women is their physical ability to protect women. The second is that "they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth." Although the Holy Qur'an permits women to earn and own wealth, it expects that men will generally be able to earn more than women because of the natural differences between them. This means that they will generally be responsible for the economic needs of women and this responsibility also makes them qawwamun.

In thinking of men as qawwamun over women we should not limit their role to mere protectors and providers. Properly taking care of women requires more than ensuring their physical security and providing food and shelter. It also requires looking after their psychological and emotional needs which can be summed up in terms of the need for love (30:21). Thus man's role in the relationship between men and women (as husbands and wives) generally consists of three things: protecting the woman, looking after her economic needs and giving her love.

What is the woman's role in this relationship? A brief statement follows about this in the verse:

"The righteous women are devout (qanitat) and guard what Allah has willed to be guarded even though out of sight."

Qanit means one who is devoted to someone and out of love and devotion obeys him or her. Outside of the present verse the word in its various forms, occurs seven times and is used of both men and women. In six out of these seven places, the object of devotion and obedience is understood to be God, in one place it is God and His Messenger. For this reason qanitat may simply mean "devoted to God". In view of the context, the idea of devotion and obedience to the husband may also be read into the word.

Since men are qawwamun over their wives, they must have some authority to make decisions, for a person cannot be an effective guardian or maintainer of someone without having some decision making authority. And whenever there is legitimate decision-making authority on one side, there is some necessity of obedience from the other. In Hadith there are many traditions which encourage women to be obedient to their husbands. Some of these traditions are no doubt forged, being attempts by later Muslims to subjugate their women(1), but others look authentic(2). Thus the Qur'an and Hadith do teach that women should obey their husbands. But this "should" is not a "should" of moral or religious obligation. The Qur'an and authentic ahadith do not command women to be obedient to their husbands, so that it is not a sin on their part if they sometime do not listen to their husbands. The Qur'an and Hadith consider obedience to the husband as simply a desirable quality of the wife.

In connection with the decision-making authority of the husband and the wife's obedience to him, the following further points should also be noted:

i) The "authority" on the husband should not be thought of in terms of the authority of a ruler or a boss. The very personal nature of the relationship between husband and wife and the love and affection which must characterize that relationship (30:21) should be reflected in the way the husband exercises his authority. In particular, he should always fully take into account her feelings on every matter. In Islam, even rulers and bosses are ordered to take into account the views of those in their charge; in case of husbands this is all the more necessary and natural. Likewise, the obedience of the wife to the husband should also reflect the personal and tender nature of their relationship. In particular, it should not be a forced obedience but rather should come naturally out of her love and respect for the husband.

ii) If a wife cannot sufficiently love and respect the husband to give him the obedience he expects, then she can, if she so chooses, seek a divorce which will necessarily be granted to her.

iii) The decision-making "authority" of the husband should be restricted to the area of responsibility (i.e. dealings with the society at large, family budget, etc.) and should not become all-pervasive.

iv) The obedience of the wife to the husband, like all obedience in Islam, is only in what is right and proper. The wife can and indeed should disobey any improper, un-Islamic, command of the husband, e.g., if he commands her not to wear hijab.

"Guarding what God has (willed to be) guarded" means guarding the husband's honor and property as well as wife's own loyalty towards him. "Even though out of sight" (li al-ghayb) refers to the husband's honor and property when he is absent as well as to the wife's secret feelings and thoughts which the husband cannot perceive even if he is present. Thus in return for love, security and financial support the husbands should give their wives, righteous wives should give their husbands love, loyalty and obedience and look after their interests with complete faithfulness.

This, however, describes an ideal situation: a strong loving husband taking full care of the wife and the wife giving him her faithful love, obedience and support. In this situation the couple needs no marriage laws. The husband, for example, does not need to be told to take care of the wife, for it comes naturally out of his love for her. Likewise, the wife does not need to be told to obey her husband and to be faithful to him because all this is the natural result of the love and respect she has for him. It is noteworthy that up to this point the Qur'anic verse does not give any commands. It rather uses a descriptive language: "men are qawwamun...", "righteous women are qanitat...". In other words, the verse simply describes the relationship between husband and wife as nature has meant it to be.

Unfortunately, in a great many cases the relationship between husband and wife, because of weaknesses on one or both sides, falls short of the ideal described above. In many cases, the husband and wife successfully make some adjustments between themselves. In many other cases, however, an adjustment becomes difficult. The remaining part of the verse under consideration concerns such cases.

"As for those women on whose part you fear nushuz..." Before we go any further with the translation, it is important to explain the meaning of the key word nushuz. The literal meaning of the word is "rebellion". But rebellion against whom and in what sense? We should certainly not think of this in terms the rebellion of the ruled against a ruler in a sultanate or dictatorship and conclude that it consists of the wife disobeying some of the husband's commands. This is because the same word nushuz is used in case of a husband in verse 128 of the same surah 4, where it is said: "If a woman fears nushuz on her husband's part..." So nushuz is something that can be feared by the husband on the wife's part or by the wife on her husband's part. It cannot therefore be understood in terms of the ruler-ruled relationship. To correctly understand the meaning of the word, it must be noted that both in the verse under consideration and in verse 128 the reference to nushuz is followed by a reference to the break-up of the marriage (see vv. 35, 130). If this context is kept in mind, then it becomes evident that nushuz means the type of behavior on the part of the husband or the wife which is so disturbing for the other that their living together becomes difficult.

Now the behavior of a marriage partner can become disturbing for the other in one of the following two ways:

1) There is no ill-will on the part of the offending party. It is simply because of some incompatibility between the two or the failure on the part of one to understand the other that one of them finds some aspect of the other's behavior disturbing.

2) One partner knowingly behaves or continues to behave in a way which seriously disturbs the other partner. In this case there is obviously an ill-will on the part of the first partner towards the second.

Nushuz is only this second type of behavior, for only a deliberate ill-conduct based on ill-will can be described as "rebellion".

There is also a measure of relativeness about nushuz in the sense that what constitutes nushuz in the eyes of one person may not be so viewed by another. For this reason, the judgment that one's spouse has been guilty of nushuz is partly a subjective and personal one. That is why the verse says: "If you fear nushuz..." instead of for example, "if you find nushuz...". In the Holy Qur'an "fearing" signifies subjective but certain, knowledge or judgment about something.

In short, nushuz is a behavior on the part of one marriage partner which comes out of ill-will and seriously disturbs the other partner.

Let us now proceed further with the verse and see what does it suggest in case of "those women on whose part you fear nushuz".(3) Three steps are recommended: "Admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat them or separate them (from you)."

When there is no ill-will on the part of the wife towards the husband and he finds her behavior hard to live with, he can, of course, divorce her. But marriage difficulties often start with a stage when neither partner really wants a break-up of the marriage and yet, at least from the point of view of one of the partners, the situation is unacceptable. The three steps suggested in the verse pertain to such circumstances.

"Admonish them". In this step the husband can say a great variety of things to the wife. He can bring to her attention some relevant teachings from the Qur'an and Hadith. He can remind her of the adverse effects of a possible break-up of marriage on all concerned - she herself, the children, if any, and he himself. Such admonition however, will be effective only if the husband has a good character, at least in comparison with the wife. Otherwise, the wife can say to him, either in her heart or aloud, "look who is talking".

The husband must practice what he preaches to his wife, for the Qur'an condemns preaching to others what we do not practice ourselves (2:44).

"leave them alone in beds". There is a lot that a husband can achieve by talking to the wife in the right way. But if he fails, he should try leaving the wife alone in bed and take other steps that go with such an action, e.g. avoiding to talk to her. If there had ever been any love between the two, this separation while living together, may help that love to return or come to the forefront. The wife may, as a result, become more willing to change her ways and the husband too may begin to see some of the things in a different light. For this suggestion of suspending sexual relations to work it is clear that the husband should have sufficient control over his sexual urges. For, otherwise he may be driven to end the separation in bed before it had any positive effect on the wife.

"beat them or separate them (from you)". If even suspension of sexual relations fails to work, then it is suggested that men use dharb. This word has almost universally been translated here as "beating". Such a translation is supported by some passages in the Qur'an where the word does mean smiting or striking (2:60, 61, 73, 8:12, 50, 7:160 etc). But in many other Qur'anic passages there are other meanings of the word. Thus the word can mean constructing or coining something such as coining mathal or similitude (14:24, 16:75-76, 30:28, 36:27 etc). The word is also used to separate two things. In 20:77 it is used of the splitting of the sea to make a way for the children of Israel to escape and in 57:13 it is used of making a wall to separate the two groups of people in the hereafter. Leaving, withdrawing or taking away is the meaning in 43:5. In 13:17 the word is used of separating truth and falsehood. The word can also mean campaigning or traveling in the land, e.g., for the purpose of trade (2:273, 73:20).

In the present context, the Qur'anic usage allows two meanings: 1) separating from the wives in the sense of living apart from them, 2) beating them. The Arabic language also allows a third meaning: 3) have sex with them. The first meaning fits the context well, for some kind of physical separation is a very understandable step after suspension of sexual relations does not work. The second meaning is more natural from a linguistic point of view and has the support of a strong consensus among the commentators. The third meaning has no support in the Qur'anic usage. In the rest of this commentary, we consider the question: how is "beating", if that is what is intended in the verse, is to be interpreted in the light of the passage as a whole and the general teaching of the Qur'an.

In this connection, it must be immediately noted that there is no warrant here in this verse for wife battering. The suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behavior that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and suspension of sexual relations and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. Once it is clear that it is not working it is to be abandoned in favor of some other steps involving relatives of the husband and the wife mentioned in the next verse (4:35). There is therefore, absolutely no license here for the type of regular and continual wife beating that goes on in some homes, where each time the husband is angry with his wife or with someone else he turns against her and beats her up. In most such cases, the husband has no moral superiority over the wife: the only rule of Shari'ah that he cares about is this suggestion about beating. He also does not have the kind of control over his sexual passions needed to separate the wife in bed and often beats her the day before or the day after making love to her, an action specifically condemned by the Prophet.(4)

In regard to the suggestion about beating, the following further points should also be noted:

a) According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say that the beating should be largely symbolic and should be administered "with a folded scarf" or "with a miswak or some such thing". However, it is not clear how such a beating can help overcome nushuz of the wife, a point that supports the first meaning of dharb. If dharb is translated as "beating", as most commentators do, then "beating" should be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nushuz. This means that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions. As for the argument that the Prophet intensely disliked beating, we can say that his intense dislike was for the type of beating done outside the limits set down by God.

b) The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. The suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behavior on the part of the wife but neither he nor the wife is as yet seriously thinking of breaking up.

c) If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Qur'an and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her. In our view the saying attributed to the Prophet on the authority of `Umar that a husband will not be asked on the day of judgment about why he beat his wife is not a part of the authentic teaching of Islam.

d) Some Muslim jurists are of the opinion that beating is permissible but not advisable. They base their view on the fact that the Prophet intensely disliked the action. But to say that beating is only permissible but never advisable is to say that there is never any good in it but the husband can nevertheless resort to it if he wants to; in other words he can beat up his wife without any good reason. This, however, is a view that cannot possibly be attributed to the Book of God. We can expect the Holy Qur'an to mention beating only if there was some wisdom in that mention. Therefore, if we translate dharb as "beating" we must not be apologetic but ask what is the wisdom behind the Qur'anic suggestion. There could be, it seems, two possible points of wisdom in the suggestion of dhard in the sense of "beating".

First, the beating done within the limits defined by the Qur'an may indeed bring the husband and wife to some kind of understanding. This is not because of the pain involved, which in any case cannot be too much if the guidance in the Qur'an and Hadith are to be observed. Rather, the husband and wife may come closer together after beating because of the emotions involved. The wife may experience the depth of hurt and disturbance her nushuz is causing and if there is any love left among them may decide for that reason to change her conduct. It seems from observations of human behavior that a show of male physical energy can sometimes bring a woman out of a prolonged bad mood (5) even though this energy may be seemingly directed against her in the form of angry words or a slap, provided in this manifestation of energy there is an undercurrent of love and desire for the woman and no real harm is done to the woman. In the situation with which the present verse is dealing, it is understood that in his heart the husband does have some love and desire for the wife. For, he has the option of divorcing her but he is not taking that option. Of course, there are husbands who neither love their wives nor divorce them, but keep them to punish them or exploit them. But we are not dealing with this situation here, since the assumption is that ill-will (nushuz) is from the wife's side.

Second, the mention of beating may have the wisdom, ironically, to protect wives against what is called wife battering. The Qur'an does not always combat undesirable behavior by legal prohibition but by some other means. Experience also shows that legal prohibition of an action may not always be the most effective method to stop it. The Qur'an by requiring that before any beating there should be admonishing and suspension of sexual relations is providing a more effective measure against wife battering, since battering is the result of uncontrollable anger or aggression and this anger or aggression can be tamed during admonishing and suspension of sexual relations. No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups.

"But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them". Here obey means that the wife accepts the husband's fair and justified demands or expectations. "Seek nothing against them" means that after the wife has abandoned nushuz and returned to the decent way one partner in marriage should behave towards the other, the husband should forgive and forget the past and start a new page.

"Behold, God is most high and great". These words are meant for both the husband and the wife. Above them both is God in whose name they were joined in marriage. The husband should not forget that the greater physical strength and the superior earning power which give him a certain advantage in marriage comes from God. He should not, therefore, try to push this advantage to unjustified limits. In particular, he should not expect to be the lord and master of the wife.

At the same time the wife should realize that her nasty behavior is causing a lot of unhappiness to all the family, to herself, to the husband and to the children and other close relatives. She cannot do this to the near ones without displeasing God and without paying for it in some way.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl: Sister,

First, as you are a revert (May Allah reward you), please allow me to recommend some useful resources that will help you to learn more about Islam.

Good websites:
http://www.beconvinced.com
http://www.path-to-peace.com
http://www.load-islam.com
http://www.islamtoday.com
http://www.islamonline.net/english/index.shtml
http://muhammad.islamonline.net/English/index.shtml
http://www.voiceforislam.com
http://www.islamicboard.com

And see here for a list of books:
http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...resources.html

Coming to your question, let me first remind you of the lofty status Islam has granted women.

The Qur'an clarifies that piety alone, not gender or ethnicity, determines one's status with God:
Qur'an 49:13. O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most noble among you in the sight of Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

And the Qur'an further says about the rewards for men and women:
Qur'an 3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other

Qur'an 4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

Qur'an 16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

Qur'an 40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and the greatest reward.


Islam raises the status of the parents and places specific emphasis on one's mother:

Qur'an 31:14 And [God says:] ‘We have enjoined upon man goodness towards his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his utter dependence on her lasted two years: [hence, O man,] be grateful towards Me and towards thy parents, [and remember that] with Me is all journeys’ end.”

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) asking “ O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Your mother”. The man said “then who else?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Your mother”. The man asked, “then who else?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied “Your mother” When the man asked for the fourth time, only then did the Prophet (peace be upon him) say, “Your father” ( Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

Shaykh Muhammad Ali Hashimi comments:

“This hadith confirms that the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave precedence to kind treatment of one’s mother over one’s father and the companions of the Prophet used to remind the Muslims of this after the death of the Prophet (peace be upon him)”

The famous companion of the Prophet, Abdullah ibn Abbas said, I know of no other deed that brings people closer to Allah more than kind treatment and respect towards ones mother.

Read the following incident from another famous companion, Abdullah Ibn Umar.
Abdullah Ibn Umar saw a Yemeni man performing pilgrimage carrying his mother on his back then the man said to Ibn Umar “ I am like a tame camel for her, I have carried her more than she has carried me! Do you think I have paid her back Ibn Umar?”
Ibn Umar said, “No, not even one contraction!” (Bukhari, Book of Manners)

And we all know the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) “Paradise lies at the feet of your mother” (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan An-Nasaa’i, Sunan Ibn Majah)

Islam has also elevated the status of daughters. The following hadith establishes the unsurpassable reward for kind treatment of one's daugters.

Aisha, wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him), said: “A poor woman came to me carrying her two daughters. I gave her three dates to eat. She gave each child a date, and raised the third to her own mouth to eat it. Her daughters asked her to give it to them, so she split the date that she had wanted to eat between them. I was impressed by what she had done, and told the Messenger of Allah P about it. He said, “Allah has decreed Paradise for her because of it”. (Sahih Muslim)

And the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Anyone who cares for three daughters, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them with compassion, he/she will enter paradise.” A man asked, “What if one only has two, O’ Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even if one only has two.” Another man asked, “What if one only has one, O’ Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even if one only has one”. (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

And the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever has a daughter born to him, and he did not prefer his son over him, Allah will admit him to Paradise because of her” (Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

And he also specified sisters:
“There is no one who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he treats them well, but Allah will admit him/her to Paradise.” (Bukhari, Book of Manners)

And further:
“There is no one among my ummah who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he supports them until they are grown up, but he will be with me in Paradise like this” – and he held up his index and middle fingers together. (Tabaraani)

As for marriage, the Qur'an clarifies that is is a bond of love:
Qur'an 30:21 And among His signs is that He created mates from among yourselves that you may live in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts

Read what the Prophet (peace be upon him) has said in this matter:

“The best of you is the one who is best to his wife” (Sahih Ibn Hibban)

“None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully” (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

“I command you to be kind to women” (Sahih Bukhari)

The renowned scholar of hadith, Imam Ad-Dhahabi (d. 1358CE) writes:

Lest one should suppose that all the responsibilities are on the wife and all the rights belong to the husband, we mention that the husband is obliged to be gentle, kind, and loving to his wife. He must show forbearance and patience toward her in case she is occasionally abusive or ill-tempered. It is his duty to feed and clothe her and to provide for her needs well, within his means, according to the command of Allah Most High: Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity (4:19) and the advice of the Prophet: Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

He said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife. The Prophet himself was very gentle and kind in dealing with women.

The Prophet saws also said: "If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)."

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)

The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk [*]:

According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and consequently it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)

I could continue to quote more evidences and information, but instead I'll just refer you to some links for more info:
http://magic-city-news.com/article_2694.shtml
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...&main_cat_id=2
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Th...omen_in_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Li...through_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Ve...Not_Oppresive/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Ar..._Men_In_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Rights_In_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Islam_Degrades_Women/


Coming to your specific question, you've mentioned another example of a verse anti-islamists try to take in isolation to malign in Islam. We see from the other Qur'anic verses and the Prophet's example that kind, compassionate and gentle treatment has been ordained. This verse speaks specifically of the case when there is deliberately nasty behaviour on the part of the wife which poses a threat to the marriage (the Prophet Muhammad pbuh defined the behaviour in question to be manifest indecency). And in such a case one is to use admonition and discussion as the primary method of seeking resolution, and after that seperation. The last method described here after the other methods is the use of light physical force, but never to the point of abuse or injury, nor when angry. The issue here is not punishing the wife at all, but rather to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. If Muslims followed the Qur'anic method of dispute resolution, they would never arrive at such a stage. And the wife has the opportunity to seek divorce at any stage in the matter. She should never stay in an abusive relationship and no one is allowed to force her to do so. The verse gives absolutely no license for wife abuse or domestic violence.

Br. Iqram has provided the article found here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34
Another helpful site is found here:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/I...ng/index.shtml

I hope this helps. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.

:w:

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[whitemuslimah]

thank you so very much for responses! it cleared up all the mess about the ayat in my head! i greatly appreciate it!
peace

[scentsofjannah]

Does The Quran Sanction The Beating of Women?
Mohammed Abdul Malek

Even in the best of marriages there are bound to be occasional discord or ill-will between the married couples. This can sometimes result in the wife being beaten up by the husband, but the justification for this is due to the misinterpretation of verse (4:34), which apparently seems to allow this. Let me quote the verse and then explain why this traditional translation is wrong.

Sûrah al Nisa 4:34
As for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adriboo) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words 'nushuz' and 'adriboo'. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.

Nushuz: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord, violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife.

Adriboo (root Daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part etc.

In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is 'marital discord' (ill-will, animosity etc), and that for 'adriboo' is 'to separate' or 'to part'. Otherwise it is inviting the likelihood of a divorce without any reconciliation procedure and this will contravene the Qur'anic guidance as shown in verse 4:35 below. The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure, and this fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur'an (see 8.5). Therefore the more accurate translation of the above verse would be:

Sûrah al Nisa 4:34
As for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation.

Sûrah al Nisa 4:35
And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever knower, Aware.

An added weight to the meanings outlined above is given by verse (4:128) quoted below, where in the case of a man the same word nushuz is used, but it is translated as 'ill-treatment' as against 'rebellion' in the case of a woman in verse 4:34. Also as the ill-treatment is from the husband, a process of reconciliation is encouraged!

Sûrah al Nisa 4:128
If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best.....

This obviously is a double standard and the only way to reconcile the meanings of the two verses, in the contexts they are being used, is to accept the meaning of adriboo as: 'to separate' or to 'part'. In this connection I would like to refer the reader to an excellent article from which I quote:

"(a) Qur'anic commentators and translators experience problems with the term Adribu in the Qur'an not just in this verse but in others, as it is used in different contexts in ways which appear ambiguous and open to widely different translations into English. 'Daraba' can be translated in more than a hundred different ways.

(b) The translation of Adribu as 'to strike' in this particular verse (4:34) is founded upon nothing more than:
(i) The authority of hadiths (Abu Daud 2141 and Mishkat Al-Masabih 0276) that this is what Adribu means in this context.
(ii) The prejudices and environment of the early commentators of the Qur'an which led them to assume that 'to strike', given the overall context of the verse, is the most likely interpretation of the many possible interpretations of Adribu".


-----------

what do you all think of this article?

[Goku]

Yep, Qur'an does not sanction wife beating, Alhumdulillah on your Reversion to the Truth.

[Zone Maker]

Mashallah 3lik Ansar Al-'Adl
I wish I have your knowledge.

[youngsister]

:sl: I just had a debate with my uncle today, he believes is ok to beat a woman lightly me on the other hand thinks is disgusting and ridicolous!
The funny thing is when describing light beatings they say is not a big deal you are not breaking her bones or leaving a scar, AS if thats normal behaviour!
The sad thing is it happens and people think is acceptable because the Quran mentions it.

The prophet peace be upon him never raised hes hand on his wifes or daughters.

Sisters what would you do if your husband beated you(lightly)?
Brothers what do you think of it?:w:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

:salamext:

Check this thread out inshaAllah.:)

http://www.islamicboard.com/marriage...e-beating.html

:wasalamex

[ameen]

salam,

I believe the word used in Qur'anic verse 4:34 has been misinterpreted to mean a physical / violent verb, whereas this word also has several non-violent meanings as well.

please take a look at the many non-violent interpretations of verse 4:34, by translators who understand Arabic, at this thread on another forum:


(Link removed by moderator)


wsalam

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Threads merged.

:sl: I just had a debate with my uncle today, he believes is ok to beat a woman lightly me on the other hand thinks is disgusting and ridicolous!

Please refer to my earlier post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post305540

:w:

[Charmbracelet]

MOD: YOUR QUESTION HAS ALREADY BEEN ADDRESSED IN DETAIL THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE THREAD. POSING THE SAME QUESTION AT THE END OF THE THREAD WHICH WAS ASKED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD IS REDUNDANT. PLEASE READ THE ANSWERS PROVIDE AND THEN COMMENT ON THEM.

[Hijrah]

Question:

Could you please tell me why the Quran tells men to "beat them" meaning their wives? (chapter 4, verse 34)

Answer:

Thank you for asking about Islam. It is our committment to try our best to provide answers to questions to the best of our ability. However, sometimes we come across questions for which we do not have answers. In this case we will refer you to others who may be able to provide you with proper answers.

Please be aware that we as Muslims, must never lie about anything, especially our religion.

Secondly, we do have the original text of the Quran and the preserved teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him. This enables us to verify exactly what was said, intended and taught by Muhammad, peace be upon him, as being the religion of Islam.

Third, I would like to remind myself and all who read this in the future that not all questions are purely questions. Some contain statements and implications, that may or may not be true.

Finally, it is important to keep in mind anytime we discover something in the answers to actually be better than what we already have, we should be committed to change our position and accept that which is true over that which is false and take that which is better for that which is inferior.

After taking all of the above into consideration, if we find that the answer to this question provides us with a better approach to understanding what Almighty God has provided us with as a way of life on this earth and in the Next Life, we should then make the logical decsion to begin to worship Him on His terms.

Having said that, let us now look to the particular verse in question in the original text (Arabic), followed by the phonetic sounds in Latin letters and then finally, followed by a translation of the meaning to the English language by experts in both Arabic and in Quranic meanings.

Transliteration
Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisa-i bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran

Explanation (tafsir) of Sura 4:34
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding the woman who is guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Meaning of the Words
For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here ‘speak to them in a persuasive manner’, ‘leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),’ and ‘have intercourse’, respectively, see Raghib Lisan al-'Arab and Zamakhsari. Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qur'an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. Fa-'izu, he says, means to 'to talk to them so persuasively as to melt their hearts.'
(See also v.63 of this Surah where it has been used in a similar sense.)

Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or moleste them)
Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'

Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding women guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Let me begin by explaining the English language is not powerful enough when it comes to translating the meanings of the Arabic of the Quran. Nor for that matter, is any other language on earth. So, all we have is translations of meanings according to the best understanding of the translators.

The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning. Let us examine them.

Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:

Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat)
Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, 'the stud camel covered the she-camel,' which is also quoted by Lisan al-'Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)

One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:

Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala “Thus Allah sets forth a parable”
[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]

Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”

And again in the next verse: Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi
“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]

Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi
“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”

Surah Ar-Rum (30:28) Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum
“He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”

Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”

In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.

The words for (beat) as in [to hit] found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."
As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).

Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behavior. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.

The first part of 34 deals with all men taking care of all women. Then goes on to explain the wife's proper obedience to Allah because He is the One Who has ordained this relationship of provision and protection for her and to be appreciative and respectful of her husband, guarding herself and his property in his absence. The man is told the proper way to behave when he finds his wife not complying with decency and proper behavior of a Muslim wife. He has a direct order to begin with admonishing her and then if there is compliance to leave her be and don't give her a hard time about it. However, if this continues, he should not have sex with her and this makes it clear to her that he is most serious and this not a joke. Again, if she comes around then he is to let it go and not bother her about it. Finally, if she still insists on such lewdness and bad conduct, he is to make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that they are going to be heading for separation or even divorce unless she comes back to proper behavior. Again, if she complies, then he should not bring it up and return to the bed with her.

And of course, this is all in an effort to translate one short but powerful phrase from Arabic to English. The sources are quoted herein and there may be other interpretations but the only acceptable ones are those based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.

And as always, Allahu 'Alim (Allah is the Knower)

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari as mentioned above and those who are well grounded in both Islam understanding and the English language.

34.
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.

The understanding now is that some of the translations are not properly representing the spirit of the meaning. Therefore, they cannot be considered to be the representation of what has been intended by Almighty God.

Now we can properly understand that Almighty God has commanded the men to provide for the women and allow them to keep all of their wealth, inheritance and income without demanding anything from them for support and maintenance. Additionally, if she should be guilty of lewd or indecent conduct, the husband is told to first, admonish her and then if she would cease this lewdness. If she should continue in this indecency, then he should no longer share the bed with her, and this would continue for a period of time. Finally, if she would repent then he would take up sharing the bed with her again.

And Allah is All Knowing of the meanings.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/article..._treatment.htm

[Joe98]

Yep, Qur'an does not sanction wife beating,

I wish I have your knowledge.

If you ask a Westerner if it’s OK to beat your wife the answer is “no”.

If you ask a Muslim it requires a 10,000 word debate between Muslims!

How can the West understand Islam when Muslims do not!

[Muslim Thinker]

If you ask a Westerner if it’s OK to beat your wife the answer is “no”.

If you ask a Muslim it requires a 10,000 word debate between Muslims!

How can the West understand Islam when Muslims do not!

How retarded:

If you ask a Muslim if it’s OK to have an abortion the answer is “no”.

If you ask a Westerner it requires a 10,000 word debate between Westerners!

How can the Muslims understand Western values when Westerners do not!

[Muslim Knight]

If you ask a Westerner if it’s OK to beat your wife the answer is “no”.

If you ask a Muslim it requires a 10,000 word debate between Muslims!

How can the West understand Islam when Muslims do not!

A Westerner says it's not OK to beat your wife but he beats his wife anyway. Violence in marriage is no stranger in the Western society so you have lost your say.

The West can understand Islam when it wants to. Only some Muslims do not understand their own religion.

[Muslim Thinker]

A Westerner says it's not OK to beat your wife but he beats his wife anyway. Violence in marriage is no stranger in the Western society so you have lost your say.

The West can understand Islam when it wants to. Only some Muslims do not understand their own religion.

Quoted for truth. Why beat when u can rape in the West?? (sarcasm)

[Joe98]

Violence in marriage is no stranger in the Western society....

But the West does not have a "4:34 - a Q regarding the ayat" which some interpet that beating is allowed.

[Hijrah]

But the West does not have a "4:34 - a Q regarding the ayat" which some interpet that beating is allowed.

:heated: :giggling:

[Malaikah]

But the West does not have a "4:34 - a Q regarding the ayat" which some interpet that beating is allowed.

Yeh, people like you who only read what they want to read!

Beating in the way youre thinking about isnt allowed n you know it- so just get over it!

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au


&&&

Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!

http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm


The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit".


The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.



Allah Almighty used the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 14:24 "Seest thou not how Allah sets (daraba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". "daraba" here meant "give an example". If I say in Arabic "daraba laka mathal", it means "give you an example".



Allah Almighty also used the word "darabtum", which is derived from the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:94, which mean to "go abroad" in the sake of Allah Almighty:




"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"

So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give" but not in the sense to give something by hand, but rather to give or provide an example.

Important Note: Notice how Allah Almighty in Noble Chapter (Surah) 4 He used "daraba (4:34" and "darabtum (4:94)", which are both derived from the same root. He used both words in the same Chapter, which tells me that "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:34 means to desert or leave, since that's what its derived word meant in Noble Verse 4:94. The next section below will further prove my point.

I am sure there are more Noble Verses that used words derived from "daraba" in the Noble Quran, but these are the only ones I know of so far. In the case of Noble Verse 4:34 where Allah Almighty seems to allow men to hit their wives after the two warnings for ill-conduct and disloyalty, it could very well be that Allah Almighty meant to command the Muslims to "leave" the home all together and desert their wives for a long time in a hope that the wives would then come back to their senses and repent.


...Conclusion:

According to the Noble Quran and the Sayings of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him above, wife beating in Islam is definetly prohibited, possibly even in the case where the wife fails after she was warned twice for her ill-conduct and disloyalty.

It is definetly a valid interpretation for Noble Verse 4:34 that Allah Almighty commanded the Muslim men to desert and leave their wives, and not to physically beat them as many scholars believe.

I personally favor this non-violent interpretation, because (1) It is very well supported in Islam as clearly and unquestionably shown above; and (2) It makes more sense and seems more practical in dealing with the bad wife who insists on showing ill-conduct and disloyalty toward her husband and family.

And Allah Almighty knows best, and may He forgive me if I made any mistake here.



http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

[chris4336]

Thank you for this post, I thought it did mean hit, because I thought there was a Hadith where the Prophet said somethink like he didn't want to hit women, but God made it permissible or something like that. Plus if it doesn't actually mean "hit" why all that stuff about the toothbrush?

This is an honest question for Muslims - Do you really expect English-speaking Non-Muslims to not completely reject the Quran based on the translation of the verse "and Beat them..." I mean if you read a book that said this would you even bother coming to all these Islamic Refutation websites?

[Malaikah]

:sl:

What do you mean Chris? :? Many non-muslims with evil intentions try to make Islam look bad based on this verse.

[chris4336]

I don't think Non-Muslims need to try anything, the verse in my translation says "If you fear disobedience etc etc beat them." This seems pretty clear to me. Its only because I had some prior knowledge of Islam that I bothered to come on these websites to find out the real meaning. If someone doesn't know anything/only knows bad things about Islam they are not going to bother even coming to these site to find out that it doesnt actually mean beat.

Maybe its the translators that are tryinig to make Islam look bad? I wonder if Muslims have any control over the translation of the Quran?

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Guys,

Sister who originally posted the article, please realise that this topic has been spoke of time and time again, also please post things like this in threads if there are any available.

Also, personally www.answering-christianity.com is not a website I would give to Muslims to use for deriving such rulings and so forth. But I guess each to his own.

But thank you sister for your effort and for giving us this view point, I have only seen a couple of your posts but I can tell you have a real passion for Islam, MashaAllah.

Thank you for this post, I thought it did mean hit, because I thought there was a Hadith where the Prophet said somethink like he didn't want to hit women, but God made it permissible or something like that. Plus if it doesn't actually mean "hit" why all that stuff about the toothbrush?

I agree, this is something that confused me too, personally either translation or understanding is ok, at first I guess I prefered the 'set them an example' or 'admonish them' type of explanation simply because I never understood any of the rulings on it.

This is an honest question for Muslims - Do you really expect English-speaking Non-Muslims to not completely reject the Quran based on the translation of the verse "and Beat them..." I mean if you read a book that said this would you even bother coming to all these Islamic Refutation websites?

Well I never knew about Islam, and when I read this it was from a non-Muslim translation it said something like 'strike them' sounded much more severe than beat, and I'm still a Muslim ;)

I don't think Non-Muslims need to try anything, the verse in my translation says "If you fear disobedience etc etc beat them." This seems pretty clear to me. Its only because I had some prior knowledge of Islam that I bothered to come on these websites to find out the real meaning. If someone doesn't know anything/only knows bad things about Islam they are not going to bother even coming to these site to find out that it doesnt actually mean beat.

I understand, and I agree to some extent, but in reality to some people the fact that they see the word beat actually motovates them to learn more, some people think "What?! How can these Muslims believe this, some of them seem so sincere" and from there they set out to ask Muslims about this. Whilst on the other hand I do agree that other people do read it and think "Argh, does darn Muslims, I knew that they were opressors of women".

What I think the difference might be, that a sincere person, someone who is truly seeking understanding of all things, whether they think "Argh there must be more to this" or they think "Those darn Muslims, why do they opress women" a sincere person with either mindstate would ask Muslims about this, but a person with a 'closed' mind, that is not willing to exchange views and learn more and question sincerly, such a person will not want sincere dialogue. Thats the fundamental different.

Maybe its the translators that are tryinig to make Islam look bad? I wonder if Muslims have any control over the translation of the Quran?

Yes they do, in some cases. And no its not the translators trying to make Islam look bad, some truly hold the view that beating is allowed, so they would translate it as beating, but would they not be scared of turning potential Muslims away? Well the answer to that stems from the fact that in order for someone to become Muslim they must know Islam, if a Muslim decieves a person into thinking Islam is something else and that person embraces it, then has that person really embraced Islam or have they embraced a false belief? Also the fact that a fundamental in Islam is that whomsoever Allah guides non can misguide.


Eesa :)

[chris4336]

Yes they do, in some cases. And no its not the translators trying to make Islam look bad, some truly hold the view that beating is allowed, so they would translate it as beating, but would they not be scared of turning potential Muslims away?

Eesa - I have come very far the past few days. Please Please Please don't tell me that "Wife beating is allowed" is an acceptable Islamic view point.

Also - I don't think its necessarily close minded of people in the West not ask about Islam. All we've seen our whole lives on TV is Muslims beating women. We know they live by the Quran, so when we read the Quran, for many its like "Well I saw lots of Muslims doing that, and here it is right here in their book."

[Malaikah]

I think bro Eesa has a habit of being misunderstood on this topic lol.

It is very clear form that hadiths that it is haram to hit a Muslim so hard that you will leave a mark, and it is haram to hit on the face.

I'll let him explain the rest inshaallah.

[soulsociety]

:sl:

I've also read a translation saying "scourge them"!

I think beating is allowed, but not on the face or such that leaves a mark. Islam allows parents to smack their kids if the kids misbehave, Islam allows the state to beat it's citizen's if they misbehave. So why should the wife be exempt? The wife can't beat the husband, but she can via a court and state.

Also in the UK it's ok to smack kids, but not adults, even though adults should know better and not misbehave? The police also carry weapons to beat people with. The UK gov also goes to war with countries without provocation and on suspicion.

I saw Taliban beating a woman with a stick on the news. Didn't seem that bad compared to what a UK Police officer (caught on CCTV) done to a drunk woman, beating her with a stick for several minutes while she was lying on the street!

[Umar001]

Eesa - I have come very far the past few days. Please Please Please don't tell me that "Wife beating is allowed" is an acceptable Islamic view point.

I woke up this morning thinking, I might should write an article just for Chris about wife beating, SubhanAllah. Looks like I might have to.

Also - I don't think its necessarily close minded of people in the West not ask about Islam. All we've seen our whole lives on TV is Muslims beating women. We know they live by the Quran, so when we read the Quran, for many its like "Well I saw lots of Muslims doing that, and here it is right here in their book."

Am not saying that such a conclusion is not a normal one, i wouldnt blame people like that, I myself had a view similar to that before becoming a Muslim, but a sincere person would still ask about it, they may not ask straight away, they may be angry while they ask, they may have a conclusion in their mind to a certain extent while they ask, but they would still ask, or at least conversate if someone spoke to them.

I think bro Eesa has a habit of being misunderstood on this topic lol.

You know what, you know me better than I know myself, I should stay out of anything which has to do with beating and Islam.

[chris4336]

SoulSociety - Fortunetly according to Ansar in the thread below, "beating" is not allowed. Unless its just a question of different use of the word in English. Here in America, I have never heard the word "Beat" (as in the context of "beating someone") mean "use light physical force." The more appropriate words in American English would probably be hit, tap, push.

http://www.islamicboard.com/305540-post4.html

But you bring up an interesting point, does anyone know what Islam says about "beating" your children?

Eesa what is your position on the topic?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam /peace to all specially to our non-Muslim sis who is so eager to learn about Islam ....Alhamdulillah ( praise be to God only )

Pl. remember that i m a very ordinary Muslimah. I sincerely hope that my reply won't make u feel frustrated or increase ur confusion or will turn u away from learning about Islam. May Allah forbid & forgive me.

I thought there was a Hadith where the Prophet said somethink like he didn't want to hit women, but God made it permissible or something like that

----Prophet Muhammed (p) is the role model for Muslims . He NEVER , i repeat never hit /beat any of his wives. I gave one example how he spent few days & night at the mosque but did not hit any of his wives.


In the Quran , Allah says,

The Women


[4.19]

O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them m order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.



http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

U see ,even if husband does not like wife , Allah says may be there is something good in the relationship ...so a husband must not misbehave with wife . After reading so many verses in Quran that husbands must treat wives with kindness even when they hate them & after the examples of the Last Prophet (p) who was so gentle to his wives , why we have to accept the translation ' hit/ beat and why not ''leave" them''?


Divorce is not encouraged in Islam but allowed when necessary.

Anyway , is there any Arabic speaking person ? Can u confirm the meaning of the Arabic word that it can be translated as leave ?

This is an honest question for Muslims - Do you really expect English-speaking Non-Muslims to not completely reject the Quran based on the translation of the verse "and Beat them..." I mean if you read a book that said this would you even bother coming to all these Islamic Refutation websites?

----honest answer :)

I read in a news that among western reverts , most are women....it really surprises me a lot & makes me so happy :happy:

Mahsa Allah ....how it's possible ? I think, while reading the Quran , non-Muslims can feel that it's the TRUTH & may be they explain the verse like that some disobedient women may need light beating ....sometimes husbands don't have any choice but to losse control & before divorcing wife ,it's the last resort. So, some husbans who want to keep the marriege alive apply this as a last resort to save the marrige & not for touturing wife....may be, it's my opinion.

Again i m reminding u that i m a very ordinary Muslimah & pl. don't let me keep u away from searching & finding the Truth.

[chris4336]

Thank you very much Muslim Woman, I really appreciate your replies, and thanks for sharing some of your knowledge on Islam so that others might understand as well.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam everybody;

Pl. take part in Live Fatwa now.

Live Fatwas


The Da`iyah, Zienab Mostafa Wed., Dec. 06
Fatwas on Women Issues 13:00 GMT

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa...Session=Recent

Assalamu Aleykum

.... personally www.answering-christianity.com is not a website I would give to Muslims to use for deriving such rulings and so forth. But I guess each to his own.



-----well ,i didnot read all articles of that site but i liked the article i posted here.....thought provoking .

the fact that a fundamental in Islam is that whomsoever Allah guides non can misguide.

Eesa :)

----yap ; that's the reason after so many anti-Islam propaganda & the horror of 9/11 , many western people including Americans embraced Islam...Alhamdulillah.

[Umar001]

Eesa what is your position on the topic?

I'll write my view, it'll take me a while but I'll write it. and I'll give you it in pm or a link to where I post it.

[Umar001]

Salaam everybody;

Pl. take part in Live Fatwa now.

Live Fatwas


The Da`iyah, Zienab Mostafa Wed., Dec. 06
Fatwas on Women Issues 13:00 GMT

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa...Session=Recent

It finished at 14:30 thanks for the invite though.

[soulsociety]

:sl:

With kids I think there is a quote where you are meant to teach your kids prayer by age 7, and beat them if they don't by pray age 10. Teach children by play up to age 7-10, by discipline to age 15 and then by friendship afterwards. Someone can find the exact quotes?

[One Man Army]

i dont wnt to read throught the whole topic, but from what iv read, duz this mean that its permitable for a husband to hit his wife in any way?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:salamext:

we are not of a religion which changes to suit the views of the people. According to the lecturers ive heard wife beating is despicable and repulsive it should only be used as an extremely last resort only to show the feelings inside in the lightest possible manner.

inshaAllah someone can explain better.

[One Man Army]

nice car, needs some wheels on it, i just thinks thats really unfair if a man is given permission in any way to hit his wife

[IbnAbdulHakim]

nice car, needs some wheels on it, i just thinks thats really unfair if a man is given permission in any way to hit his wife

yet you overlook the fact that wives are slapped and beaten all over and islam condemns these things greatly. We are allowed to gently hit her wiv a tiny toothbrush like object just to make her understand we're not happy and even this islam doesnt like, we shouldnt do it. infact theirs hadith in which the prophet saws said a good man would stay away from this as much as he can.

[One Man Army]

but whether its a tooth brush or not, this does mean a man has authority over the women? a man doesnt need to resort to violence to educate his wife. where does it say about the prophet saying a good man would stay away from this as much as he can?

[soulsociety]

I think if you have a wife who is so bad to the extent you should smack her, you are better off divorcing her, before having to hit her...

[soulsociety]

Allah - Muslim, state - citizen, mother/parent - child, husband - wife, these aren't equal relationships.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

if a man was to punch a wife and extract blood i would understand you that you called it violence. You might as well call tapping someone to get attention violence if you call a gentle hit with a toothbrush violence !!

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a:

The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?" And Hisham said, "As he beats his slave"

Abu Dawud
Book 11, Number 2138:
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:

I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.

and if any wife is unhappy with her husband islam gives such right that she may leave him:

Abu Dawud
Book 12, Number 2220:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

Habibah daughter of Sahl was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays Shimmas He beat her and broke some of her part. So she came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) after morning, and complained to him against her husband. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) called on Thabit ibn Qays and said (to him): Take a part of her property and separate yourself from her. He asked: Is that right, Apostle of Allah? He said: Yes. He said: I have given her two gardens of mine as a dower, and they are already in her possession. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Take them and separate yourself from her.

I hope the matter is clear now

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I think if you have a wife who is so bad to the extent you should smack her, you are better off divorcing her, before having to hit her...

no, just cause you've hit rock bottom doesnt mean you should divorce. Perhaps tempers might flare, i think divorce should be at the bak of the mind and used when its unavoidable. Audhubillah may Allah protect us from such a state.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Threads Merged.

Please see:


http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...rse-34-a.html?
http://www.islamicboard.com/305540-post4.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ing-ayat.html?

:w:

[Umar001]

I think Muslims need to explain things properly.

The view of a non-Muslim when they see hit/beat/smack/slap/ is something which is totally different to the way Muslims might be using this words, i.e. within the Islamic restrictions. Alot of non-Muslims might also then be thrown back at the way that some Muslims just throw the words around as if it's nothing.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ examples bro, this is good dawah tips mashaALlah. jazakaAllah khair

[Malaikah]

i dont wnt to read throught the whole topic, but from what iv read, duz this mean that its permitable for a husband to hit his wife in any way?

I hate the use of the word beat because it brings terrible images to mind.

What is meant by the word 'beat' is that, as a last resort, the husband may hit the wife in a light manner without causing harm, or leaving any marks and not on the face. And only if she is in the wrong.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace to all :)



&&&

Islam & Wife Beating
related links:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/I...ng/index.shtml
Wife Beating in Islamic Perspective

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi and Dr. Jamal Badawi point out that the Prophet Muhammad (p) never hit any female, and said that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives…

Bonds of Love and Mercy


In one of his sayings, the Prophet Muhammad (p) equated perfect belief with good treatment of one’s wife: “Among the Muslims, the most perfect as regards his faith is the one whose character is most excellent, and the best among you are those who treat their wives well.”


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544256


Question Respected scholars! Does Islam allow wife beating? Some husbands are violent and they say that the Qur'an allows them to beat their wives. Is there any logical explanation given regarding men being allowed to beat their wives, as stated in surat An-Nisa', verse 34?


"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means.


Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly);


but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it.



It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse".



The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives.

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au


&&&

:sl: .....Sisters what would you do if your husband beated you(lightly)?
Brothers what do you think of it?:w:

I know & heard of some women who are very hot tempered & prevent their husbands to do their duties to parent.

If the husband gives money to parents or a married sister comes to visit parent & stay at brother's res ( i.es res is father's but now brother is in charge of all financial matters ) , it creates a huge family problem. The wife objects that why her mother-in-law spends so much money for food to entertain dauhter & son-in-law ? It's her husband's money & mother must not spend so much . In that case , if the story is true , then what a husband should do ? Obey his wife or what ?


I m not saying that he should start beating his wife but when a wife starts quarrel with mother-in-law ....not once or twice but regularly , then we can't blame husband only if he can't control his temper. I know a woman who start shouting even before her husband can enter the res etc , etc. Yes , her husband has some faults but the wife must understand that it's not the proper way to correct him. At least , allow him to sit & take rest for 10 minutes.




Well, i guess i don't belong to any of the categories mentioned above ; so nope , my husband must not beat / hit/ push/tap me ... hehe:) .

Normally , we don't shout at a time or continue heated discussion for long. So, Insha Allah , we can manage continuing a healthy relationship.

We must fear Allah & ask His help always. ..rest will be easy , Insha Allah.


If any husband thinks it's ok to beat wife about any matter , of course it's wrong. He should follow the example of our role model ( the Last Prophet -pbuh ) & spends time at mosque :okay:

[lolwatever]

:sl:
this thread is beginning 2 go in circles too much:heated:
:w:

[chris4336]

I have another question for Muslims - What do you think of the effectiveness of this ruling? What I mean is - Have you ever seen a wife behaving extremely out of line and then completely change these behaviors because her husband tapped her with a toothbrush?

Personally, if my (future) husband even so much as raised his hand to me I would leave. If he doesn't like my actions he has the right to leave the marriage. But he NEVER has the right to hit me.

I really fear for Muslim sisters just because domestic violence follows a very predictable pattern. In all cases, the relationship is characterized by a controlling, jealous, dominate male, who then begins to physically harm his wife. It seems to me that jealously and dominence of the husband are encouraged in Islam. When you add that to the fact that "beating" is permitted, it seems to me that you are walking a very fine line.

Sisters - I believe Islam gives you the right to your own money. My mother taught me to always keep some money in your name alone because you really never know what will happen. Its important to keep at least a little bit of money so that if you ever need to leave your house quickly you can.

Domestic violence is a HUGE problem in my country (the US). 1 out of 4 women will be a victim in her life, which is believed to underreported. Does anyone know anything about Muslim countries or Muslilm communities?

[Malaikah]

If the rate is 1 in 4 in a non-muslim country, why have you singled the muslims out as if their marriage styles are the only ones that create trouble? :?

How does smacking with a toothbrush as the last resort to disobedience equal an increased chance of domestic violence? ^o) Its a total ban of domestic violence!!

Those qualities you mentioned are good characterists, perhaps by your thinking they arent, but couple them with the fact that the husband also has to be kind to his wife and has a duty to please her, I dont see what the problem is?

If Muslim husband find a quality in his wife which he dislikes, he should overlook it because he will find other qualities that he does like, assuming that the quality is question isnt something sinful. If he dislieks that fact that she is sinning then of course it is his duty to disipline her, because its now a matter of paradise and hell.

Divorce is only ever the last resort in Islam.

[Umar001]

[QUOTE=chris4336;589124]I have another question for Muslims - What do you think of the effectiveness of this ruling? What I mean is - Have you ever seen a wife behaving extremely out of line and then completely change these behaviors because her husband tapped her with a toothbrush?{/QUOTE]

The size of a toothbrush not a toothbrush itself. I think it does work, I have seen non-Muslims do things like this, this is something I was going to write about but, if the action will cause more probelms then the husband should not do it. But I think that in some places its understood and it can work on some people.

Personally, if my (future) husband even so much as raised his hand to me I would leave. If he doesn't like my actions he has the right to leave the marriage. But he NEVER has the right to hit me.

Ok, well that's your opinion, but what does it mean to hit? I wonder if you will ever pull on your husband or hold your husband sometimes to kind of indicate your disproval at something. I wonder, I've seen many women do that.

I really fear for Muslim sisters just because domestic violence follows a very predictable pattern. In all cases, the relationship is characterized by a controlling, jealous, dominate male, who then begins to physically harm his wife. It seems to me that jealously and dominence of the husband are encouraged in Islam. When you add that to the fact that "beating" is permitted, it seems to me that you are walking a very fine line.

When you add to that the fact that those who abuse their partners could not care less if beating was allowed or not then I see theres no problem. For example, let me show you, someone might say 'Domestic reletionship theres violence both are Muslim,,,Hmm Islam encouraged it'

Well I know a sister who has been abused by her husband, but did Islam encourage it? No, beacuse in most cases of domestic violence, the steps are not taken that Islam talks about,

in most cases the husband hits out of anger which is not allowed.

in most cases the husband hits to leave marks which is not allowed,

in most cases the husband hits the face again which is not allowed,

in most cases the wife has done NOTHING wrong,

in alot of cases alchol is involved which again is against Islam,

in most cases as I mentioned before it is done out of anger this again is against islam in the sense that the prophet told us not to be angry,

Also in alot of cases the fact that the Prophet told us to be kind to our wives is not taken into consideration by the partner.

Further more Allah told us that we might not like some parts but we have to overlook them, so in most cases this is disregarded.

The list goes on, just because Islam allowes a form of tapping does it mean that domestic violence and abuse is because of that, NO, because if it was from Islam the husband would have seen the rest of the teachings. But then again, I guess we shouldn't look at the 'good' aspects.

[chris4336]

That is why I asked about the rates, I don't know what its like in Muslim countries.

I know the law in this coutry is Do Not Hit period. Without exceptions. This is what is taught to men and women alike in school. We do not permit any sort of physical abuse and the rate is still extremely high. That is what is taught but people don't follow it, just like many Muslims do not follow their teachings. I am curious to see the rates in countries where it is permitted in some form.

[Umar001]

That is why I asked about the rates, I don't know what its like in Muslim countries.

I know the law in this coutry is Do Not Hit period. Without exceptions. This is what is taught to men and women alike in school. We do not permit any sort of physical abuse and the rate is still extremely high. That is what is taught but people don't follow it, just like many Muslims do not follow their teachings. I am curious to see the rates in countries where it is permitted in some form.

Where what is permitted?

I think in the USA a man or woman is allowed to grab their wife or husband? In school I was grabbed by my deputy head when I was a kid and that is in the uk, grabbed me by the arm, certainly got my attention and stopped me from being naughty.

Is that what is not allowed in the USA? A symbolic gesture, because if it does not leave bruising or marks nor should it be done in anger and at a moment of stress then what else is it?

[Malaikah]

Um Chris, well I dont think that will work because there will be billions of other factors, specifically cultural factors that will influence the rate.

You have to assume that both societies were identical and the only thing that differed between then was the teaching that hitting the wife is not allowed for the comparision to be of any value...

[chris4336]

Eesa - I see your points but you have to understand that if this religion is from God I expect it to be better than "Good." I expect it to be perfect, to provide a better system of life than I could ever have imagined. There are many many many aspects of Islam that are great. I know I am very critical of Islam on these boards but I truly wouldn't be here if I thought it was all bad.

I just can't help but wonder if the benefit of allowing this "toothbrush" beating to save a marriage is worth the risk that it will be very easily misinterpreted and abused? And isn't that something the all-knowing creator would have taken into account when he made this ruling? Again like in polygamy it comes down to the faith in a higher power that knows us better than we know ourselves.

[Umar001]

Um Chris, well I dont think that will work because there will be billions of other factors, specifically cultural factors that will influence the rate.

You have to assume that both societies were identical and the only thing that differed between then was the teaching that hitting the wife is not allowed for the comparision to be of any value...

On top of that you'd have to look at the fact that many would be unreported if they were believed to be justified through religion.

Also that there is no Muslim State, only countries which have some Muslim like laws.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:salamext:

from chris's post i gathered that jelousy is the root cause of wife beating. Honestly just cover up, try your best to not attract attention from men (get the husband whos patience is obviously low to practise islam so that he understands that how a wife should be treated) and its all good :)

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^I dont think jealousy is so much the cause, it more of a mix of short tempers and feeling of dominance which leads to arrogance, and just the fact that he has the pwoer to over power her... etc.. a mix of things, jealousy I guess might come into it but I wouldnt say it is the root cause.

[Umar001]

Eesa - I see your points but you have to understand that if this religion is from God I expect it to be better than "Good." I expect it to be perfect, to provide a better system of life than I could ever have imagined. There are many many many aspects of Islam that are great. I know I am very critical of Islam on these boards but I truly wouldn't be here if I thought it was all bad.

Noone is debating that Islam should be perfect. What I am saying is that, Islam is, but no matter how perfect something is people will always try to abuse it, and that is the test of this life for others.

I just can't help but wonder if the benefit of allowing this "toothbrush" beating to save a marriage is worth the risk that it will be very easily misinterpreted and abused?

Well not really, because if you read at the most predomenant scholars it is agreed, even amongst them, I think, ask, that the most that can be done is a light tap that will leave no marks and that it should not be done out of anger and stress and that it should only be done rarely and many conditions.

So thats what this verse has been seen by even those scholars who agree that it means beat, this is the type of beating that those scholars have put, now, why are we going to say 'well tht Hamza says that he can beat his wife black and blue' anyone can interpret anything the way they want, but the fact that Scholars, even for those that believe in beating have said this beating has so and so conditions shows us that this verse cannot be abused or misinterpreted!

And isn't that something the all-knowing creator would have taken into account when he made this ruling? Again like in polygamy it comes down to the faith in a higher power that knows us better than we know ourselves.

Again, I have said above, interpretation is to be done by someone of understanding, and when you look at the scholars, none of them say, 'you can beat the wife black and blue, you can hit her if she doesnt cook your meal, you can degrade her and hit her for fun' rather Chris, the scholars have said that this verse means such and such and there are conditions for this.

Now thats it, no room for people to come and say 'I acn beat the crap out of my wife Islam allows me'

This is like those people that say 'Islam allows anal sex with the wife because when the gay guys came to Lot he tried to plead that they marry his daughters whilst Lot knew which area ofthe body the men wanted, so anal is allowed' Totally Rubbish.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

^I dont think jealousy is so much the cause, it more of a mix of short tempers and feeling of dominance which leads to arrogance, and just the fact that he has the pwoer to over power her... etc.. a mix of things, jealousy I guess might come into it but I wouldnt say it is the root cause.

ye i guess thats true. Anyway in this country wife beating doesnt seem to occur anymore (in UK i mean), i know lots of wives who are completely and hundred percent dominating their husbands. honestly and if you want to know how then its with tears, not beatings...

[chris4336]

Listen the toothbrush ruling is great really. If you assume that all 1 billion Muslims in the world are going to come online and read it, or they are going to go the Mosque and taught it correctly. Because if they are only going to read in Quran its clear they could get the idea that its okay to physically abuse you wife.

I would prefer the rule said "No hitting your wife." This does not require a whole page of Hadiths to explain and does not get misinterpreted. But I guess Muslims will say the many benefits of tapping you wife with a toothbrush necessitate a different ruling.

[chris4336]

Now heres something not a lot of peple know...a woman has permission to take miswaak and poke her husband with it too... :) for very specific reasons.

Can someone please confirm this because that makes it a very different issue :)

I think you have a very good point with the prayers.

Again I will ask do you guys think this ruling is effective? Have you ever seen a women behaving badly enough to warrant this "beating" change her behavior after being hit with a toothbrush?

[Malaikah]

Listen the toothbrush ruling is great really. If you assume that all 1 billion Muslims in the world are going to come online and read it, or they are going to go the Mosque and taught it correctly. Because if they are only going to read in Quran its clear they could get the idea that its okay to physically abuse you wife.

But thats there own fault isn't it? If they choose to be ignorant then they are in the fault, it is not Islam's fault or God's fault.

Going to the mosque is compulsory for men, specifically attending the friday prayers, which includes a sermon. It is very likely that this topic is bought up.

Another thing, if they read the Quran then surely they would have come across the verses that talk about how the important it is to follow the sunnah of the prophet. Now the sunnah isnt in the Quran, its in the hadith, so a Muslim who reads the Quran with sincerity should know that he needs to read the interpreation of the Quran (based on the sunnah) to understand it properly.

Furthermore, if he did have this misconception it is very unlikely that he will 100% isolated from people how understand the proper ruling, so if he tries to beat his wife others will intervene and tell him this is haram.

If Muslims choose to remain ignorant, this is their own sin and they will be held accountable for that on the Day of Judgement, and it could also land them in hell.

I would prefer the rule said "No hitting your wife." This does not require a whole page of Hadiths to explain and does not get misinterpreted. But I guess Muslims will say the many benefits of tapping you wife with a toothbrush necessitate a different ruling.

It's not up to us to prefer anything of God's religion to be changed. To desire this is an act of kufr and leaves one outside the folds of Islam.

Just because we might not understand, that doesnt mean we have the right to reject it when we know that Islam is the right religion and is God's words.

Lastly, we can not look at people who do not bother to understadn Islam properly and say that such people are a limitation of Islam. This makes no sense.

Hope that helps. :)

[Malaikah]

Again I will ask do you guys think this ruling is effective? Have you ever seen a women behaving badly enough to warrant this "beating" change her behavior after being hit with a toothbrush?

Firstly, I dont know anyone that bad. Secondly, I have no business inside the marriage life of others. :uuh: Thats is their personaly domain. Lastly, such a thing has never happened with my parents alhamdulilah so I have no way of knowing.

In the case of the prophets wives, I only know of cases that it got to step two and by step two they were very sorry for what they did alhamdulilah.

Do I think it is effective? Yes for sure, because it makes the toothbrush the last resort after a whole bunch of other very effective methods, and at the same time eliminates violence.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam /peace to all;

the following answer is given by our revert sis




Obedience within Loving Marriages


AElfwine Mischler

• An American convert, has an M.A. in Linguistics and Teaching English as a Foreign Language, a B.A. in English, and an A.S. in Physics.


• She was raised as a Roman Catholic and attended Catholic schools. She embraced Islam in 1981 while studying for her Masters Degree.



Diane - United States


Title Obedience within Loving Marriages

Date 28/Dec/2002


Question Lately, I gained genuine interest in Islam. I know something is “true” about it… but…

I am scared to fail in establishing a nice warm family if I take any step further… So many things seem to be contradicting…

Why do I have to beat my child when he is 7? I don’t believe in beating in the first place… what about a 7 years old child?! How can a mother do that… or even a father??

Why do I have to “OBEY” my husband, while he wouldn’t obey me? And how come marital relation, which should be based on love, be depending on “obedience”?!What if I am not convinced with what he wants me to do? How come he has the right to – again – beat me??!!

How can someone love me, but orders me around and even beats me when he wishes?!

Is it true angels would curse me if I refuse to make love with him? What if I am not feeling well? What about him? What if he refuses to make love with me… don’t I have the same rights??

Is it true that my prayers would not be accepted if I fail to satisfy my husband’s desires? What if his desires are unpleasant?


Why is that big fuss about husband’s rights? What about rights of a wife?!


**

As-salaam `alaikum Dear Diane,

I’d like to know what you’ve been reading about Islam, because it does seem to me that you have some distorted ideas and I am concerned about the source. I hope they are not from books by Muslims!

First of all, I do not know of any source in Islam that says you “have to beat a child when he is seven”. The only hadith I know of is one that says to begin teaching the child to pray at seven, and if he/she doesn’t pray at ten, to hit him/her. The Arabic word daraba is better understood as “hit” than “beat” (repeated hard hitting, usually with something).

Early Muslim jurists told us that such hitting was to be so light as to not leave a mark. Also, we should follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who was reported to have always corrected children with gentle words and to never have hit a child.

Allah orders us to live in peace and harmony with our spouses. In Surah 30, verse 21 He says:

*{And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are signs for those who reflect.}*

Also, He says in Surah 2, verse 187:
*{Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments…}*

Commentators on the Qur’an understand this to mean that husbands and wives are for mutual support, mutual comfort, and mutual protection.

You ask about obedience to the husband and his “right” to beat you. The answer is that he does not have the right to beat you! In fact, the one verse in the Qur’an that mentions this - Surah 4, verse 34 - has to be read in its entirety and understood in Arabic.

Islam prohibits men from hitting women, except in one very limited case when the wife is rebellious and disobedient - not when she disobeys one request or order - and only as a last resort. The husband should first admonish her, then abandon her bed if she continues to be rebellious, and only if those steps have failed “may be” hit, not beat, her. The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough, not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick).

We also know from the hadiths and sirah (biography) of the prophet (pbuh) that he has always urged men not to abuse or hit their wives. In fact, he is known to have never hit his wives, servants, an animal, or “a thing”. And, he is the model we should emulate. For more about the issue of beating wives, please read the following:
Bonds of Love and Mercy

As for obedience, keep in mind, first of all, that you cannot look at one point in Islam without looking at other related points. Islam is a whole system.

While men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. In marriage, the woman has the right to be financially supported and maintained. The husband has no right to any of her money. In return, the wife should obey her husband in things regarding the marriage - including whether she can work outside the house and who can visit in the house - but he has no say in how she invests or spends her own money as long as it is in a halal (Islamically legal) manner.

But, at the same time that she is to obey her husband, we are all told to conduct our affairs by mutual consultation, as the Qur’an states in Surah 42, verse 38:

*{And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.}*

So the husband should consult his wife on major decisions and take her opinion into consideration, but the ultimate decision is his, because finally there must be a decision-maker and head to this vital institution – the family.

There is a hadith that states that the prayers of three people will not be accepted [or raised to Heaven], one of whom is the woman whose husband is angry with, until he is satisfied. But, if we are in a loving marriage - which is what we should all strive for - a woman would rarely do something to anger her husband, and he would rarely retain his anger. Yet, if he really is unjust to her, another hadith tells us that the prayers of three people are always heard, one of whom is the person who has been dealt with unjustly.

So, you cannot take just one point without examining others. Husbands and wives should consult each other and try to compromise when they disagree. If a woman has to give in to her husband, sometimes because the final decision is his, she should do it willingly for the sake of Allah and to maintain peace in the family. It is also to be noted that if it turns out to be a bad decision, the responsibility is his!

This situation does not mean that the wife would be weak if she gives in. She has a different kind of strength, a “tensile” strength to bend rather than snap. And, if she does it for the sake of Allah, He will definitely make things easier for her. For more on these topics, please see:
Equal Rights for Women

A Man Should Respect His Spouse


Wife-Battering


Woman in Islam

Scope of Men’s Guardianship Over Women

As for the man and woman’s sexual rights, first of all remember that one of the main reasons for marriage is to give a halal (legal) outlet for our natural sexual urges. If a man or woman were to repeatedly refuse to fulfill the sexual needs of the spouse, this would tempt the spouse to seek satisfaction outside the marriage.

There is a hadith reported by Bukhari, which says that if a man asks his wife to bed and she refuses, the angels curse her till morning. However, the early commentators understood this to be only if he is upset with her for refusing. If she has a legitimate excuse of being tired or ill, he should be forgiving. Also, the prophet (pbuh) advised his followers to approach their wives with gentle words, caresses, etc. so that they would accept their advances, and also not to leave them until they [the wives] were also satisfied. For more on this, also read:

Does Islam Permit “Marital Rape”?

I hope that I have answered your questions satisfactorily. Loving marriages and warm families are certainly possible in Islam! In fact, they are the goal… This is because family is the basic unit of society and strong families make for a strong society.

Remember to look at Islam as a whole and not to focus on just one verse or hadith without seeing others related to the subject. Also, don’t judge Islam by what you see Muslims do, but by what the Qur’an and sunnah say they should do. May Allah guide you and us all to the truth!

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace to u & all;

I have another question for Muslims - What do you think of the effectiveness of this ruling? What I mean is - Have you ever seen a wife behaving extremely out of line and then completely change these behaviors because her husband tapped her with a toothbrush?

---to be honest , as i mentioned of few hot tempered , bad manners wives ....sometimes i think like this , they deserve beating ......ooopsss , i guess my comment may arises ur confusion more ....but believe me , some wives do provoke husbands a lot . I think, absence of tapping/ pushing , these wives are going really too far & that's bad for their life hereafter.

Personally, if my (future) husband even so much as raised his hand to me I would leave.

--- i know a husband who loved his wife a lot , had quarrel with his mom & dad several times on behalf of his dear wife. Last year , they seperated for few months. I wanted to set the problem .Asked the wife what went wrong ...her answer was, he slaaped me. I asked why ? answer , for nothing.

I said, look ,it's impossible ....u were sitting calmly & ur husband came & slapped u ...it's absurd. Now tell me the truth. Then she admitted that she called her husband ' son of a *****'. Now chris , can u blame a husband solely if he reacts after hearing these beautiful words ?


It's duty of a wife not to provoke husband that he can loose his temper ...yes , of course husband must not fall into the trap of wife.....but in some or many cases a wife must share some responsibility.

I m writing a quick reply . Chris , pl. don't let me confuse u. I will explain more Insha Allah tomorrow .

[One Man Army]

---to be honest , as i mentioned of few hot tempered , bad manners wives ....sometimes i think like this , they deserve beating ......ooopsss , i guess my comment may arises ur confusion more ....but believe me , some wives do provoke husbands a lot . I think, absence of tapping/ pushing , these wives are going really too far & that's bad for their life hereafter.

what kind of thing is that to say? that is such a steriotypical view. how can u judge that wives are bad mannored or what ever. ur just trying to justify that a man can hit her. ok, so what about a man that is rude to his wife??? shouldnt he recieve same punishment? personally i dont think that a woman should EVER have to be a victim of domestic violence of any sort. whether that includes a toothbrush or not.

[soulsociety]

Men and women aren't perfect and yes sometimes they do deserve a smack.

If a man hits his wife it's abuse. But if a woman hits her husband its comedy?

[Umar001]

personally i dont think that a woman should EVER have to be a victim of domestic violence of any sort. whether that includes a toothbrush or not.

Hi,

So let me ask you, according to you, a tap with a pen, that is not done in anger nor done from a bad temper, but done to cause the wife's attention to shift so that she might stop doing something deemed bad. Then thats domestic violence?

So if we havea child, and the child is doing something wrong, and the child is taken hold of to grab the childs attention to divert him or her from doing wrong then is that too child abuse?

Eesa :)

[chris4336]

Eesa - I just think you are walking a really fine line. You are right a light tap on the hand with a Pen is not bad. What about a light tap with your hand? What if its a little too hard? Do you know how to hit someone exactly hard enough that it will not leave a mark? What if it really hurts but doesn't leave a mark? Who is defining "rebellious" or "disobedient" behavior?

Its just easier to draw the line at no hitting period. It seems that is what most Muslims think as well, again except in very special circumstances. (I do not even want to get into Muslim Woman's comments that some women deserve a good smacking). And even in these circumstances I wonder how effective it is? If a women is being so outrageous that she deserves this toothbrush beating is it really going to change her mind?

Also do you know if the women can do this toothbrush hitting thing to man as someone suggested?

And I don't understand how you keep saying it cannot be out of anger? If the wife is being so outrageously disobedient, wouldn't the husband be angry?

[zanjabeela]

Eesa - I just think you are walking a really fine line. You are right a light tap on the hand with a Pen is not bad. What about a light tap with your hand? What if its a little too hard? Do you know how to hit someone exactly hard enough that it will not leave a mark? What if it really hurts but doesn't leave a mark? Who is defining "rebellious" or "disobedient" behavior?

Its just easier to draw the line at no hitting period. It seems that is what most Muslims think as well, again except in very special circumstances. (I do not even want to get into Muslim Woman's comments that some women deserve a good smacking). And even in these circumstances I wonder how effective it is? If a women is being so outrageous that she deserves this toothbrush beating is it really going to change her mind?

Also do you know if the women can do this toothbrush hitting thing to man as someone suggested?

And I don't understand how you keep saying it cannot be out of anger? If the wife is being so outrageously disobedient, wouldn't the husband be angry?

Responding in my limited way to the questions I bold-faced:

Yes, I think we all know how to hit just hard enough to get attention while being soft enough to not leave a mark. Don't we do this all the time with little babies who are trying to do something dangerous, light reach for the hot stove-top?

In a marriage, both partners would be defining all kinds of behavior. Why is that germaine to the discussion?

If you do it out of anger, it will more than likely be hard enough to leave a mark. Since he must wait till his anger has cooled down, he is not likely to beat the hell out of me with a toothbrush. So it becomes a non-issue. No anger = no hitting with the toothbrush/pen/feather/whatever.

Peace out.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace to all;

hope everybody is in good mind & health ....noboby beat wife ....yakkkk or nobody ( not only sister , brother too ) was beaten :uuh:



chris: [MAD]I do not even want to get into Muslim Woman's comments that some women deserve a good smacking). [/MAD]


---- ooopssss sorry sis if i upset u . Let me explain.

I saw so many programmes on media about how Muslim women are oppressed. I don't remember any single programme that says how Muslim women can be oppressors.



In a Muslim majority country , joint family is very common (I guess , it's rare in the west ). Normally son after getting married live with parent . Now a days, it's almost becoming impossible for any son to live with parents.


I know a widow mom who came to live with her married daughter as a paying guest ' cause her son left home with wife & it was not possible for that elderly lady to stay alone.

Yes , as a married woman , i do understand living with in-laws can create many problems ; but when mother is a widow & her all daughters are married & now she has only son to live with......it was a cruel act for them to leave home & left mom alone ( i m not sure if u can understand this situation as aged parent live alone in the west but fortunately in Asia we don't send our parents to old home ...they stay with family members ) .



in the case mentioned above , it was almost compulsory for a son & his wife to stay with the old mom & do as much as possible for her. It's for their own sakes....to please God Almighty & get rewards from Him on the Last Day. Instead they forced her to move to her daughter's home that is very unusual in a Muslim society.


I think, it's better to be a victim rather than an oppressor .



When i saw that old lady crying , i feared for the son......mom's each tear drops will certainly be heavy on him .


I went to a kid's birthday party where kid's mom scolded her husband in front of all guests....know why ? Because he forgot to buy the new film & she just got mad & complaining that how a bad father he is.....now how can she take photographs of her only son in his new dress ?

Many of us who had cameras assured her that we will take as much as photo she wants of the event , still it took almost one hour to make her calm. Just imagine , if a wife can scold husband so rudely in front of so many guests , then how she behaves with him when nobody in around ?



No , of course i don't think that husband should beat her mercilessly , but I regularly wonder that how he is he tolerating her ? Most probably , because of their only son , they are still married.



Another woman who wanted to divorce her husband but her sister-in-law did not support her returning back to parent's home ' cause it means her husband needs to look up the sister with her kid.



Those women who forced their husbands to give all money to them & not to spend money for his parent & bro , sis .. ...BBC, CNN , FoxNews don't represent these oppressor Muslim wives & their victim husbands.


Some women regularly blackmail ( not sure if this is the correct word ) husbands .... know how ? very easy ....she goes to her parent house & deprive her husband from conjugal life. In many cases , men find it hard to stay without wife for long & bring her back home & listen to her obediently that is harmful for their lives hereafter .



Pl. try to understand , Islam does not allow violence . Even in the battle field , if enemy wants to hear the words of God , Muslims must escort them .....so it's impossible that God allows husbands to beat wife mercilessly .




If some or many husbands do this crime , they are to blame for it ...pl. don't put blame on Islam.



I guess , u have already have a headache. So, bye for now.

******

Holy Quran:

Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.

[chris4336]

Muslim Woman...I apologize if my comments seemed rude. It is just that in my country we are very careful to make sure a woman is never blamed for any abuse she experiences. Ideas like "she deserved it" or "why doesn't she just leave" only cause harm these women. However, I suppose that you were not discussing "abuse" but rather the implimentation of a specific Islamic ruling.

I really enjoyed your point about Muslim women being oppressors. In the Muslim country I am familiar with, many women demand excessively high dowries which prohibits lots of Muslim men from getting married, which is really sad I think. In the situations you gave it is sad, but if these men are being treated so badly, they always have the option of getting a divorce.

This might open up a whole other can of worms but in the verse regarding the "hitting" is the "if you fear disobedience" refering to Allah or the husband, or both? Becaue I have heard it argued both ways.

To be honest, this "issue" really doesn't bother me as much as some of the other ones (polygamy grrrrr). I still think its wrong to hit a women in any way for any reason. But since that is not the case in Islam, I can trust in some all knowing creator who understands the benefits of hitting women with toothbrushes far better than myself, and for this reason has permitted this very specific form of hitting.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Here's what I wrote earlier in this thread:

Coming to your specific question, you've mentioned another example of a verse anti-islamists try to take in isolation to malign in Islam. We see from the other Qur'anic verses and the Prophet's example that kind, compassionate and gentle treatment has been ordained. This verse speaks specifically of the case when there is deliberately nasty behaviour on the part of the wife which poses a threat to the marriage (the Prophet Muhammad pbuh defined the behaviour in question to be manifest indecency). And in such a case one is to use admonition and discussion as the primary method of seeking resolution, and after that seperation. The last method described here after the other methods is the use of light physical force, but never to the point of abuse or injury, nor when angry. The issue here is not punishing the wife at all, but rather to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. If Muslims followed the Qur'anic method of dispute resolution, they would never arrive at such a stage. And the wife has the opportunity to seek divorce at any stage in the matter. She should never stay in an abusive relationship and no one is allowed to force her to do so. The verse gives absolutely no license for wife abuse or domestic violence.

Eesa - I just think you are walking a really fine line. You are right a light tap on the hand with a Pen is not bad. What about a light tap with your hand? What if its a little too hard? Do you know how to hit someone exactly hard enough that it will not leave a mark? What if it really hurts but doesn't leave a mark?
[...]Its just easier to draw the line at no hitting period.

Actually the same 'slippery-slope' argument can be applied to anything in this regard, irrespective of where you choose to draw the line. When does a spouse's playful shove become an aggressive push? When does an annoyed slap become an inappropriate smack? When does an exasperated grab become a threatening clutch? When does an unwanted pinch become a abusive squeeze?

What you must realize is that there is inherent subjectivity when it comes to physical contact and interactions amongst human beings. And most people have reasonable judgement; we're not robots or computers who need an 800 page programming of the exact parameters of appropriate contact, which will never be free of grey areas anyway. In your day to day interactions you need to be a judge on what kind of conduct is allowed. If someone acts excessively it is usually quite obvious, especially if the case winds up in court for domestic violence.

As Muslims we have the lofty standard of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to apply in all aspects of our lives and this is how his own wife described him:
`Âishah said: “Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) never once struck a servant of his nor a woman, nor did he strike anyone with his hand.” [Sahîh Muslim (2328), Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4786), Sunan Ibn Mâjah (1984), as quoted from Sunan Ibn Mâjah]

So even if you say 'no hitting period', the 'period' is only in your imagination since the grey areas continue forever and physical contact will still occur between couples; and when it is deemed excessive by one party it will be brought before the courts and the decision will be clear as will the punishment.

Who is defining "rebellious" or "disobedient" behavior?

The prophet peace be upon described it as manifest indecency - certainly not average behavior and hence a preclusion of spousal abuse.

If a women is being so outrageous that she deserves this toothbrush beating is it really going to change her mind?

Ibn Abbas's statement on the miswak is to emphasize the mildness of it and to remind the believers of the lofty standard of the Prophet pbuh which is to avoid any hitting.

Also do you know if the women can do this toothbrush hitting thing to man as someone suggested?

The Qur'anic verses go on to speak about the possibility of rebellious behavior on the part of the husband and point out mediation by a third party. The reason why the same steps are not profferred here is because a woman is usually not able to physically overpower her husband and such actions on her part against someone who is physically rebellious may only endanger her further and the Qur'an intends to protect women from harm and it intends to honor them.

And I don't understand how you keep saying it cannot be out of anger? If the wife is being so outrageously disobedient, wouldn't the husband be angry?

What is intended is that the hitting is not done out of anger since then self-control and caution is reduced and the possibility of harm is greater. But it does not mean the husband will be emotionally neutral, it just means he doesn't lose his temper and let his anger control his actions. Also, the fact that hitting in anger is prohibited significantly reduces the liklihood of hitting at all, and consequently if one was to actually follow the steps laid out in the Qur'an they wouldn't come to this problem in the first place.

Regards

[soulsociety]

I still think its wrong to hit a women in any way for any reason.

What if your life was in danger? Self-defence? Not even then?

If you are pacifist then yes. But that also mean syou can't hit anyone, including your kids.

Do you agree with smacking children?

[chris4336]

Ansar -

I know its a slippery slope and it's never going to be fully clear. My belief is that its easier to say "Do not hit them" and then go onto debate what constitues a "hit" rather than say "Hit them in x circumstance in x manner." I think the former shows more respect to women. But that is just my opinion.

I also find it a little bit insulting that physical force might be necessary to evoke recognition of the severity of the event. If she doesn't understand the severity after explanation, and after her husband avoids relations with her, obviously there is some ideological difference between the partners that will not be solved with a hit from a toothbrush? I think implicit in this argument is that sometimes the only way to make women understand the severity of a situation is to "tap" them. You are basicaly saying that some women are incapable of evaluating their behavior based on explanations and expressions of anger, rather they need something physical to help them understand. If these women really can only grasp the severity of the situation when it is expressed to them in the form of a toothbrush tap, they probably should not be in an Islamic marriage in the first place.

This is just an honest question because on the Aisha boards you say that not everything that Prophet does becomes Sunnah (I'm paraphrasing). So how do you know that "Not hitting women" is something that should be encouraged for Muslims and marrying 9 year olds is not?

[chris4336]

No actually I don't agree with smaking children. Yes I would grab their arms is they were about to run out into traffic or touch a hot iron. But if they were misbehaving I would use other means (such as time out). I think that smacking them for misbehavior teaches them the idea that "Hitting is an acceptable way of evoking behavioral changes." So now when they are in school and someone steals their crayons they think "Well, how did my mom get me to change my behaviors? Oh yeah, smacking, okay so let me do that."

[hidden_treasure]

salamz,
beat them lightly with a siwak (used for brushing teeth)..and that should be the last resort yeh?? And it should be done on the hand or so.

Im just speaking from the top of my head now. I tell ya something, i wish my dad was a muslim all those years ago when he (the westerner, non muslim) beat the living daylights outta my mum.

Islam is simply perfect....may Allah guide my family..ameen.

[soulsociety]

No actually I don't agree with smaking children. Yes I would grab their arms is they were about to run out into traffic or touch a hot iron. But if they were misbehaving I would use other means (such as time out). I think that smacking them for misbehavior teaches them the idea that "Hitting is an acceptable way of evoking behavioral changes." So now when they are in school and someone steals their crayons they think "Well, how did my mom get me to change my behaviors? Oh yeah, smacking, okay so let me do that."

That's good, just wanted to see if there was a contradiction in you saying not hitting a woman ever, with your opinion smacking a kid.

Thing is your nation is not pacifist, look at the armed police, look at the invasion of other countries. Do you agree with no use of violence at all?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace to u & all;

[QUOTE]

Muslim Woman...I apologize if my comments seemed rude.

it's ok :okay:

To be honest, this "issue" really doesn't bother me as much as some of the other ones (polygamy grrrrr).

i gave one example from Jamal Badawi's article. What do u suggest for that young man who's wife is bad ridden & can't perform her role as a wife?

Should he divorce her , cheat her or re-marry & keep her in marriage and take care of her ?


http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy5.htm


pl. remember , God says in Quran about polygamy that if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then (marry) only one…" (Qur’an 4:3)



U may also ask urself , If Islam is really that bad & anti-women , why then so many western women are embracing Islam ?


Spanish Muslim Revert Talks about Women's Rights in Islam

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2351



Bismillah, Assalamu alaykum, this is a Spanish Muslim sister, she talks about Women's rights in Islam. This sister's name is Fatimah Milla - Rumayor.

She is educated and bought up in Spain, she works as a linguist and is from Spain.

She points out some useful information about Islam and she addresses the misconceptions that many people have about Islam and the role of women in it.



The Status of Women In Islam.
Compiled By TurnToIslam.Com

Islam is the message that Allah sent to all mankind through his Prophets. The Message of Islam has always been to worship Allah alone without associating any partners with him and to follow the Messengers that he, the most High, sent to mankind.



The Last and final Messenger was Muhammad (pbuh)

And it is his example and guidance that Muslims must seek to emulate and act upon.

Islam is perfect, and there is no need for it to ever be changed or "Modernised". For It is a religion of ease and moderation.


Infact, those Muslims who do not act according to the true sources of Islam are the ones who are "backwards". Advancement for mankind is through the pure Islam.

THere will be some "Muslims" who do not respect women, or who are criminals and do bad.




Just as there will be some countries which call themselves "Islamic" and call for women to be stopped from going to school and getting education etc.


None of these people are following Islam properly. They are ignorant to the true teachings of Islam. Any person who has a fair and just mind, can understand that there are good and bad people in all societies. Islam is not at fault, but those people who do not follow it properly.

You can not simply generalise and make wide sweeping statements against Muslims or Islam based upon the actions of a very few people.

comment of a reader:

A woman came out of a mans rib. Not from his feet to be walked on, not from his head to be superior over, but from his side to be equal.

Under the arm to be protected, and next to the heart to be loved

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Chris,

I know its a slippery slope and it's never going to be fully clear. My belief is that its easier to say "Do not hit them" and then go onto debate what constitues a "hit"

As I pointed out, you still have not escaped the inherent subjectivity here and there will still be spousal interactions of irritation and annoyance, so you're back to square one. And such a prohibition also neglects the issue of emotional and psychological abuse and other forms of harassment.

rather than say "Hit them in x circumstance in x manner."

But that isn't what the Qur'an does. The Qur'an says in these situations that threaten the marriage, only then is the mildest physical contact permitted under stringent circumstances that most people will not come to anyway. It has nothing to do with disrespecting the man or the woman, it has to do with providing a practical series of steps for the husband to resolve nasty behavior on the part of the wife. And the Qur'an provides the wife with the steps to resolve such behavior on the part of the husband as well.

What you don't realize is that even if you say "no hitting", people will still resort to such actions as a rare slap or pinch, and after the dispute is resolved, neither party will deem it abuse. Here are characteristics of spousal abuse that women should look out for:

It may not be easy to identify abuse. An abusive relationship can start subtly. The abuser may criticize your appearance or may be unreasonably jealous. Gradually, the abuse becomes more frequent, severe and potentially life-threatening.
"It's important to know that these relationships don't happen overnight," says Patterson. "It's a gradual process — a slow disintegration of a person's sense of self."
However, many characteristics signify an abusive relationship. For example, you may be abused if you:

• Have ever been hit, kicked, shoved or threatened with violence
• Feel that you have no choice about how you spend your time, where you go or what you wear
• Have been accused by your partner of things you've never done
• Must ask your partner for permission to make everyday decisions
• Feel bad about yourself because your partner calls you names, insults you or puts you down
• Limit time with your family and friends because of your partner's demands
• Submit to sexual intercourse or engage in sexual acts against your will
• Accept your partner's decisions because you're afraid of ensuing anger
• Are accused of being unfaithful
• Change your behavior in an effort to not anger your partner

Pregnancy is a particularly perilous time for an abused woman. Not only is your health at risk, but also the health of your unborn child. Abuse can begin or may increase during pregnancy.

Most abuse occurs under the influence of alcohol, something that Islam prohibits.

I also find it a little bit insulting that physical force might be necessary to evoke recognition of the severity of the event.

It is not insulting because the same thing can also apply to the husband! The only reason why the wife is not given the step of hitting the husband is because it will only endanger her further, and we see proof of this in that all domestic violence support centers encourage the wife to just leave an abusive household.

If she doesn't understand the severity after explanation, and after her husband avoids relations with her, obviously there is some ideological difference between the partners that will not be solved with a hit from a toothbrush?

Not true, it could be emotional obstinance and neglecting the harm being caused to the other party. She may not realize the reality of her emotional and psychological abuse, and the same thing can apply to the man. So it is not insulting to either men or women, since it can apply to both, it is only insulting to those who wish to purse such abusive behavior towards their spouse.

So how do you know that "Not hitting women" is something that should be encouraged for Muslims and marrying 9 year olds is not?

It was never a 'practice' of the Prophet to marry 9 year old girls. Almost all his marriages were to middle-aged widows, and with his companions he only ever endorsed marriage to people who were pious and had good character. So by no stretch of the imagination can one say that that is a practice of the Prophet, let alone that all believers are to emulate it.

As for the hadith I presented about the Prophet pbuh never hitting anyone, this is a standard he maintained throughout his entire life and it was part of his personal interactions with other people and his etiquettes of dealing with other people which he told us to follow and which the Qur'an commands us to follow. Cultural practices like riding a camel, we are not commanded to follow. But his excellent character, manners and etiquettes we strive to follow.

Regards

[One Man Army]

hitting your kids, and hitting your wife are two totally opposite things. your wife isnt a kid, or has the brains of a kid, or is inferior. therefore i believe that there shouldnt be no intention from a man to hit his wife, being a toothbrush, to what ever

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Which is why I said earlier:

Coming to your specific question, you've mentioned another example of a verse anti-islamists try to take in isolation to malign in Islam. We see from the other Qur'anic verses and the Prophet's example that kind, compassionate and gentle treatment has been ordained. This verse speaks specifically of the case when there is deliberately nasty behaviour on the part of the wife which poses a threat to the marriage (the Prophet Muhammad pbuh defined the behaviour in question to be manifest indecency). And in such a case one is to use admonition and discussion as the primary method of seeking resolution, and after that seperation. The last method described here after the other methods is the use of light physical force, but never to the point of abuse or injury, nor when angry. The issue here is not punishing the wife at all, but rather to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. If Muslims followed the Qur'anic method of dispute resolution, they would never arrive at such a stage. And the wife has the opportunity to seek divorce at any stage in the matter. She should never stay in an abusive relationship and no one is allowed to force her to do so. The verse gives absolutely no license for wife abuse or domestic violence.

Of course with some individuals such actions will never be effective and will only worsen the situation, so they should be avoided then. But to state that such methods are categorically unproductive in all circumstances and societies is fallacious.

Here's a good Islamic article on the general relationship between men and their wives:

A Wife
A talk by Shaykh Abdullah Adhami


By getting married you are not just getting a wife, you are getting your whole world. From now until the rest of your days your wife will be your partner, your companion, and your best friend.

She will share your moments, your days, and your years. She will share your joys and sorrows, your successes and failures, your dreams and your fears. When you are ill, she will take the best care of you; when you need help, she will do all she can for you;

When you have a secret, she will keep it; when you need advice, she will give you the best advice. She will always be with you: when you wake up in the morning the first thing your eyes will see will be hers; during the day, she will be with you, if for a moment she is not with you by her physical body, she will be thinking of you, praying for you with all her heart, mind, and soul; when you go to sleep at night, the last thing your eyes will see will be her; and when you are asleep you will still see her in your dreams. In short, she will be your whole world and you will be her whole world.

The best description that I personally have ever read describing the closeness of the spouses to each other is the Qur'anic verse which says: "they are your garments and you are their garments" (Surah Al Baqarah 2:187). Indeed, spouses are like garments to each other because they provide one another with the protection, the comfort, the cover, the support, and the adornment that garments provide to humans. Just imagine a journey in the winter of Alaska without garments! Our spouses provide us with the same level of comfort, protection, cover, and support in the journey of our lives on this earth as garments would do in the Alaskan journey.

The relationship between the spouses is the most amazing of all human relations: the amount of love and affection, intimacy and closeness, mercy and compassion, peace and tranquillity that fills the hearts of the spouses is simply inexplicable. The only rational explanation for these most amazing of all human feelings is that: it is an act of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, "And Allah has made for you Mates (and Companions) of your own nature ..." (Surah Al Nahl 16:72) Only our Almighty Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in His Infinite Power, Boundless Mercy, and Great Wisdom can create and ingrain these amazing and blessed feelings in the hearts of the spouses. In fact Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is reminding those who search for His signs in the universe that these feelings in the hearts of the spouses are among the signs that should guide humans to His existence as He says in the Qur'an, "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquillity with them and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Surah Al Rum 30:21)

But Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows that the human heart is not a static entity, it is sometimes weak and at times dynamic. Feelings can and do change with time. Love may wither and fade away. The marital bond might weaken if not properly cared for. Happiness in marriage cannot be taken for granted; continuous happiness requires constant giving from both sides. For the tree of marital love to remain alive and keep growing, the soil has to be sustained, maintained, watered and nurtured.

Remember that our Prophet Muhammad Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam had found the time to go out to the desert and race with his wife Aisha. She out ran him but later after she had gained some weight, he out ran her.

Remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam took his wife to watch the young Ethiopians playing and dancing their folk dances. The show of emotions is necessary to keep the marital bond away from rusting and disintegrating.

Remember that you will be rewarded by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala for any emotions you show to your wife as the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam said "one would be rewarded for anything that he does seeking the pleasure of Allah even the food that he puts in the mouth of his wife."

Never underestimate the importance of seemingly little things as putting food in your wife's mouth, opening the car's door for her, etc. Remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam used to extend his knee to his wife to assist her up to ride the camel.

Try to always find some time for both of you to pray together. Strengthening the bond between you and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is the best guarantee that your own marital bond would always remain strong. Having peace with Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will always result in having more peace at home.

Remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam gave glad tidings for those couples who wake up at night to pray together. The Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam even urged the spouse who rises up first to wake the other spouse up even by throwing cold water on his/her face.

Always try your best to be good to your wife by words and by deeds. Talk to her, smile to her, seek her advice, ask for her opinion, spend quality time with her and always remember that the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam said "the best of you are those who are best to their wives."

Finally, it is common that spouses vow to love and honor their spouses until death do them part. I do believe that this vow is good or even great, but not enough! It is not enough that you love your wife. You have to love what she loves as well. Her family, her loved ones must also become your loved ones. Don't be like my colleague who was unhappy about his wife's parents coming to visit for few weeks. He candidly said to her "I don't like your parents." Naturally, she angrily looked at him straight in the eye and said " I don't like yours either"... Also, it is not enough that you love her until death do you part. Love should never end and we do believe there is life after death where those who did righteousness in this world will be joined by their spouses (Surah Al Zukhruf 43:70) and offsprings.

The best example in this regard is the Prophet Salallaahu 'aliahi wa'sallaam whose love for Khadija, his wife of 25 years extended to include all those she loved and continued even after her death. It was many years after her death and he never forgot her and whenever a goat was slaughtered in his house he would send portions of it to Khadija's family and friends and whenever he felt that the visitor at the door might be Khadija's sister Hala, he would pray saying "O Allah let it be Hala."

[chris4336]

Okay let me see if I understand this:

There might be circumstances in an Islamic marriage in which a wife or a husband exhibits a behavior that can be described as "manifest indecency"

That husband or wife can take steps to show the other partner the severity of the situation. These include:
1. Explaining to your partner why you are upset
2. Removing yourself from the partner (not sharing a bed with them).

If the other partner still is behaving in the manner, this means that he/she has completely failed to recognize the severity of the situation despite your best efforts with words or actions. In this case, physical force might be useful as a means of explaining to both men and women that what they are doing is bad.

In the case of the husband, he can tap his wife with a toothbrush.

In the case of a wife it is not recommended that she tap her husband with a toothbrush for fear that he will react in a bad manner. Her next step would be..... (please fill in the rest for me - I would think following the logic that she get her father or brother to tap him with a toothbrush)



My problem with this is that I don't find physical force a very useful means of helping someone realize the "severity of the situation", so I don't really see why the whole toothbrush thing is necessary. I think humans intellectually capable of a relationship can tell the gravity of a situation without it being expressed to them in terms of "tap." And if they are choosing to ignore their partner's feelings, than I highly doubt a tap with at toothbrush will make them change their mind.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace to all;

So how do you know that "Not hitting women" is something that should be encouraged for Muslims and marrying 9 year olds is not?


It was never a 'practice' of the Prophet to marry 9 year old girls. Almost all his marriages were to middle-aged widows, and with his companions he only ever endorsed marriage to people who were pious and had good character.

--- a very good point bro.

chris , if u know any Muslim man who wants to 'buy' & ' abuse ' a young virgin & wants to justify his this act by telling that ' i want to follow Sunnah ' , tell him to marry a widow first with her 3 kids from previous marriage (s) . Spend 25 years with his first wife , then marry a ( i forgot now , his 2nd wife was either a widow or a divorced lady ) , then let him send a marriage proposal ( not buy a poor girl & forced her into marriage ) to a 9 years old girl who is an adult now & she & her parent do not have any objection/doubt about his high moral character .



Let him be such a good husband that his wife can tell what Mother Aisha (ra ) told about her husband : "I have never seen a man who was more compassionate to his family members than Muhammad (saas)."

http://www.theprophetmuhammad.org/life.html#203

Those who want to abuse young wives ,
why don't they listen to the Last Prophet (p) ? "I urge you to treat women well"

- Sahih Al bukhari

"The most perfect believer in faith is one who is the best of them in good conduct. The best of you is one who treats best with his wife among you



It's clear that those who are believer , who fear that they will meet their Lord can never abuse wives. Because , God ordered them to treat wife with kindness . God's final messenger set example how to treat wives.......NEVER EVER HIT YOUR WIFE.


So chris , those who abuse wives are not true believers . may be we can't punish them in this world , but don't worry , they will get what they deserve on the Last Day.

About wife's dad or bro's tapping husband , i m not sure about this.....most probably no. God made it compulsory that men will take care of wives , earn & spend for wives ....it's not a choice .....it's a must. He is also responsible to make a secured life for her . U see , huge responsibilities are on men's shoulders. Also , it's a fact that , if wife & husband start fighting , wife's life will be in danger .May be , that's the reason a wife must not tap husband or hire /ask someone else to tap husband. After bro/dad's leaving , husband may want to take revenge. Anyway, a couple won't be in need to tap each other if they follow the proper guide lines of Islam.

from the last sermon of the Prophet (p).

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission.

If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness.

Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.

**

Recitation of Sura Fathiha by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au

whole Quran recitation:

http://quran.jalisi.com

( thanks who sent me the link....Jazak Allah )
&&&

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace to all;

pl. read article of our revert sis on Muslim marriage guide.

Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood

She grew up a devout Christian, but converted to Islam in 1986

Turning Sex into Sadaqah


[an act of voluntary kindness pleasing to God]



by



Sr.Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood.


(An excerpt from 'The Muslim Marriage Guide').

http://www.ruqaiyyah.karoo.net/articles/index.htm

[Malaikah]

If the other partner still is behaving in the manner, this means that he/she has completely failed to recognize the severity of the situation despite your best efforts with words or actions. In this case, physical force might be useful as a means of explaining to both men and women that what they are doing is bad.

Not quite, the steps are only for the husband when the wife is in the wrong.

Imagine if the wife was right and the husband was wrong. She could explain to him why she thinks he is wrong. This is reasonable.

Now imagine he still doesnt listen and the removes herself from her husband. Is this wise? I don't think so, it will possible anger the husband and could lead to violence: he has the strenght to force himself onto her, whereas the wife does not.

As for the hitting lightly with a toothbrush, this as well is dangerous because the husband might retaliate with force, and most women simply do not have the ability to over power men.

I hope you can appreciate how foolish it would be to have these steps apply to women as well. So instead, if she talks to him and he still doesnt listen, she should go straight to a relative for help.

I think humans intellectually capable of a relationship can tell the gravity of a situation without it being expressed to them in terms of "tap." And if they are choosing to ignore their partner's feelings, than I highly doubt a tap with at toothbrush will make them change their mind.

Well you never know... could work..

[hidden_treasure]

hitting your kids, and hitting your wife are two totally opposite things. your wife isnt a kid, or has the brains of a kid, or is inferior. therefore i believe that there shouldnt be no intention from a man to hit his wife, being a toothbrush, to what ever

Tell that to the americans...dont they have one of the highest rate or the highest rate of domestic violence against women...shameful.

[chris4336]

Yes, I have been reminded multiple times on this board that I should only look at the true laws of Islam not what Muslims do. It is not our probem that people abuse our laws, just like its not your problem that people beat the hell out their wives and claim they were given permission in Quran.


Forgive me but I'm still not really understanding. So Islam teaches that sometimes it might take a hit for a women to realize the gravity of the situation. Islam also teaches that in some non existent hypothetical situation it might take a hit for a man to realize the gravity of the situation, but this would never happen because men overpower women?

[Muezzin]

In a lecture, the speaker said 'hitting' was basically the wrong word - it's more like 'touching', like you tap someone. It's like 'you have ticked me off so much that I have to make physical contact to get my point across'.

Of course, I'd rather have it so that husbands and wives don't fight at all, but us humans do love our conflict, unfortunately.

[chris4336]

Maybe its my lack of knowledge of Arabic. In English the words "Beat" and "Touch" are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The word "touch" and its synonoms are not usually (if ever) mistaken for other words that imply physical violence. Can the word used in this verse apply to any type of physical contact?

Fine so for men its:

You ticked me off so much that the only way it can be expressed is through physical contact.

For women its:

You ticked me off so much the only way it can be expressed is by calling up this Imam, and having him deal with you.

[chris4336]

Of course with some individuals such actions will never be effective and will only worsen the situation, so they should be avoided then. But to state that such methods are categorically unproductive in all circumstances and societies is fallacious.

Isn't following the Quran the best way to live? I just assumed this method was considered better than other "non physical" methods such as contacting an Imam, or bringing in a mediator, because this method was recommended. If these any of these methods were superior they would have been recommended. Why on earth would someone think "Well its probably a best that I don't hit my wife" when God cleary states "hit your wife." So you are right maybe its not completely 100% unproductive, but I think it is far from the best option.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

In the case of the husband, he can tap his wife with a toothbrush.

I'm not sure if you just missed the point completely or chose to ignore it, but I already mentioned that Ibn 'Abbas's comment on the miswâk is meant to show the mild and insignificant nature of the hit even once it is resorted to. I can only assume that your insistence upon using the word 'toothbrush' is to ridicule the issue, but it hopelessly fails since there is no directive to use a 'toothbrush' in any Islamic texts.

In the case of a wife it is not recommended that she tap her husband with a toothbrush for fear that he will react in a bad manner. Her next step would be..... (please fill in the rest for me

Thrid-party mediation or the assistance of the courts in getting a resolution, which may entail a divorce.

My problem with this is that I don't find physical force a very useful means of helping someone realize the "severity of the situation", so I don't really see why the whole toothbrush thing is necessary. I think humans intellectually capable of a relationship can tell the gravity of a situation without it being expressed to them in terms of "tap." And if they are choosing to ignore their partner's feelings, than I highly doubt a tap with at toothbrush will make them change their mind.

Well, you just chose to ignore my earlier comments about emotional obstinance. Do you really mean to tell me that human beings are perfectly objective and rational and never swayed by personal bias or emotion? Rubbish. We know for a fact that the complex interplay of hormonal systems in the brain gives rise to a host of prejudicial biases and emotional behaviours with no underlying rationale, comprising arrogance, aggression, obduracy, etc.
In fact, I am sure many people can relate to a time in their life when they were hung on one narrow-minded line of thinking, blinded to all other ways by their emotional biases, and they needed a friend to help them 'snap out of it'. How about remembering a time when one was behaving in a stupid manner and just wishing that there had been someone there to smack them and tell them to snap out of it. If you know anyone who was severely depressed at one point in their life or otherwise going through a deep emotional phase, they could probably relate to that, perhaps even desiring to go back in time and confront their former self to get them to 'snap out of it'. We accept such conduct to occur amongst friends and siblings, thus it is not absurd to suggest that even though unlikely it may happen between those who are even closer, a husband and wife.

"Yeah, I can't believe I was acting so dumb!" - you're telling me such statements have never been heard from human beings?? It is certainly likely that in a very intense emotional conflict one may be entirely absorbed by one perspective and blinded by one line of thinking and they don't realize it until the emotional disturbance is expressed to them in a different way by their partner. This may not work for some people, but to state that it is categorically unproductive is fallacious. In some instances it may work and does work, and consequently the Qur'an has given a dispensation - NOT a command or recommendation - to use light physical force in such instances.

its not your problem that people beat the hell out their wives and claim they were given permission in Quran.

Actually from a perspective of a muslim living in the muslim community, the notion of people justifying such blatantly abhorrent behavior with the Qur'an is unheard of. It doesn't happen. If you look at statistics you will see the major factors in domestic violence, usually things Islam prohibits anyway like alcohol and extramarital affairs. People who try to justify such behavior usually say, "I was drunk", not "I'm allowed its in the Qur'an". Even a person with the brain of an ape knows that no religion on earth tolerates such behavior.

Forgive me but I'm still not really understanding. So Islam teaches that sometimes it might take a hit for a women to realize the gravity of the situation.

Islam says that if you are in an emotional dispute with your spouse and the other methods have been exhausted and some physical contact will actually work to get them to snap out of their narrow minded line of thinking and realize the emotional disturbance caused, then in such cases you are allowed, not to punish anyone, but to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation. "Wake up! Look at what's happened to our family!"

Islam also teaches that in some non existent hypothetical situation it might take a hit for a man to realize the gravity of the situation, but this would never happen because men overpower women?

No you've missed the point completely here. We're going by logic and we're saying that sometimes men act stupidly and need a good smack. This is not a non-existent or purely hypothetical scenario, this is self-evident around us (somehow these same men always seem to get into politics). The reason why Islam does not offer this solution to women is because it might serve only to endanger the woman further, and the husband might lash back in an even more aggressive manner. So for her safety, both the Qur'an and western domestic violence help centres advise that the woman seek outside help and try to leave an abusive household as soon as possible.

Maybe its my lack of knowledge of Arabic. In English the words "Beat" and "Touch" are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

I thought we had answered this already, but once again the word 'beat' in the engloish language means to hit repeatedly and violently with the intent to cause injury or pain and usually with a weapon. This is why the expression of 'darb' as 'beat' is a gross distortion of the meaning of the word and conflicts with every Islamic teaching. The Islamic texts taken collectively condemn and prohibit any such violent behavior. The word 'darb' is best translated as 'hit' or 'strike' like Prophet Ayûb used a handful of grass to 'darb' once (Qur'an 38:44). This shows it was a single strike and not violent in any manner - you can't beat someone with a handful of grass.
http://www.islamicboard.com/249115-post2.html

You ticked me off so much that the only way it can be expressed is through physical contact.

Wrong again. It is not out of anger or because he is angry as we explicitly mentioned. It is a conflict where dialogue is not working and one party persists in manifest indecency and disruptive behavior, hung on a narrow minded line of thinking that in such cases if some physical contact will help them to 'snap out of it' and realize the problems they are headed for, then it is allowed. Not recommended or commanded, but allowed.

Isn't following the Quran the best way to live?

Yes, but if you knew about the detailed science of the principles of Islamic jurisprudence (Usûl al-Fiqh), it would be evident that this is a dispensation, not a recommendation or command. And the Qur'an says about the Prophet Muhammad saws:
68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character.

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

So we are told to emulate the character of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and from this is the example of him never raising his hand to hit anyone in his entire life, but always dealing with others with mercy and compassion. And it is this that all muslims are commanded to strive to follow.

I just assumed this method was considered better than other "non physical" methods such as contacting an Imam, or bringing in a mediator, because this method was recommended.

The errors in the above quote are numerous:
1. No it was not a recommendation, it was a dispensation.
2. It was a dispensation for men, as the verse clearly states.
3. The next verse provides the steps for women and verse 4:128 speaks about if the husband is guilty of nushuz what the woman should do
4. Of the methods set out for women is the involvement of third-party mediation and this is something confirmed by all help centres who affirm that someone should be told about it and mediation should take place, and women should always leave an abusive household.

Why on earth would someone think "Well its probably a best that I don't hit my wife" when God cleary states "hit your wife."

This I find quite irritating. You have stopped asking questions and now you are making the allegation that the Qur'an COMMANDS men to hit their wives which is a blatant lie. And you can read these posts to see that no where is this said to be a command, so you are knowingly pronouncing false information.
The reality is that the Qur'an COMMANDS Muslims to strive to emulate the character of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and this entails no hitting whatsoever. So right from the get-go we know that this is the best method possible because the Qur'an says so. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the highest standard of moral excellence. As for verse 4:34 it provides a dispensation, not a command or recommendation, but a dispensation to use this kind of hit in a situation where one's spouse is persisting in manifest indecency which is destructive to the marriage and where such action may actually prove productive in evoking recognition of the gravity of the situation. If this doesn't work, it should not be maintained and third-party mediation or arbitration should be looked into immediately.

I think my post has gone into detail answering all your questions. If you repeat any of the same misconceptions or allegations already debunked here ignoring the answers provided, then bear in mind that this will only reflect negatively on yourself. Thus, it is in your best interest to read over the answers carefully before formulating further questions, unless this post has sufficiently answered your misunderstandings.

Regards

[chris4336]

Well I apologize that you find it irritating. I just thought if a Muslim was in that situation and they were looking for the next step in the process they would look to the Quran for guidance. I don't think that is a very radical or offensive thing to assume about Muslims. But now you have explained to me very cleary that in order to correctly implement the verse the husband must truly believe that "such action may actually prove productive in evoking recognition of the gravity of the situation." I have never read this explanation anywhere else, but I'm willing to take your word for it.

I don't deny that humans can be very narrow minded and unwilling to change their views. Of course I can related to situations where people need to snap out. Of course I can remember back to a time when I was being unreasonable, and looking back I wish I would have done something differently. It is just my opinion that in the disagreements I have witnessed or had myself the use of a "hit" to help someone "snap out of it" would have not been the most effective mechanism. This was also what was taught in all psychology courses that I have taken. You and I cleary have different opinions on this. But since it is clear to me now that this verse is not a recommendation of what would be most effective, rather a permission given if the husband believes it will be effective, I will make sure to inform my future husband that hitting me while we are having an argument will not be effective, and then this issue will not affect me in the least.

So, may I ask you to clarify the beginning of the verse. Are the first 2 methods "dispensations" as well? Or could they be described as "recommended" because the Prophet practiced them? If a man believes that talking will not be effective can he just skip this step, and not share a bed with a woman?

[Muslim Woman]

With the name of ALLAH ( God Almighty ) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continuously Merciful

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran

http://www.islamicity.com/MOSQUE/ARA...AYAT/1/1_1.htm


&&&

Isn't following the Quran the best way to live? .

yap :happy: :)

Why on earth would someone think "Well its probably a best that I don't hit my wife" when God cleary states "hit your wife."

------ First of all : the word may have another meaning instead of hitting.


secondly: If really it means hit/tap etc , then before divorcing wife , it's the last step from husband's side IF he sincerely wants to continue his married life with wife peacefully in future.

If a wife fears that situation is that bad that her husband can beats her mercilessly , she can go for divorce . During the time of the last Prophet (p) , women applied their this right even husband was not abusive. A husband was crying & begged his wife not to divorce him , the last Prophet (p) asked wife to reconsider , still she divorced him.



3. To torture wife , God forbade a husband to keep his wife into marriage . Those who abuse wives are disobeying God.




4. All Muslim men are not that bad media want u to believe .
Many if not most Muslim husbands try hard to treat wives with kindness. They don't beat wives if she does not cook well , they don't hit her mercilessly just because she forgets to do something etc.



5. God said , the last Prophet came as a mercy for the whole world. We mentioned here several times that Prophet Muhammed (p) never hit his wives.



6. Our knowledge is limited & only God knows best. As men have burdens to perform duties as caretake/maintainers of women ....most probably that's the reason in this case they enjoy this tapping facility ; when women enjoy more facilities in other cases like they don't have to earn for family, they don't have to spend anything from their wealth they get from father , husband etc. What wealth women recieve they can save it for themselves only & can enjoy in a halal way.


His money is her money but her money is NOT his money........ men are not complaining about this or if they do , we won't listen to them as God gave us this right.



Again , pl try to understand that when Muslim men must be kind to enemies even in the battle field , they can't be unkind /hostile to their wives at home. U don't have to be an Islamic scholar to understand this simple matter.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So, may I ask you to clarify the beginning of the verse. Are the first 2 methods "dispensations" as well? Or could they be described as "recommended" because the Prophet practiced them? If a man believes that talking will not be effective can he just skip this step, and not share a bed with a woman?

No he can't skip the steps because it is a progressive dispensation; he is allowed to do one step after exhausting the preceding step. It is a dispensation because he is allowed to use such steps in such dispute resolutions, when they prove productive.

But since it is clear to me now that this verse is not a recommendation of what would be most effective, rather a permission given if the husband believes it will be effective, I will make sure to inform my future husband that hitting me while we are having an argument will not be effective, and then this issue will not affect me in the least.

Indeed; it will not affect you if your spouse knows you well and in fact, you would most likely never come into the situation of manifest indecency in the first place.

As a matter of fact, if you think about these minor issues in the context of Islam as a whole complete system, it would seem rather foolish to do away with such a grand way of life on the basis of such trivialities. Consider the example of a car. Imagine that someone was offering you a luxury sedan with all the most expensive features and the latest technological equipment, all of this for free. Now on the speedometer, in addition to having mph in large font, it also has in a smaller font "km/hr". Would you reject the entire car because you would never use "km/hr" and you don't know anyone who would and you don't as of yet appreciate the wisdom behind the car having such a feature? Would you reject the whole car on such a triviality? I don't think any sane person would.

Islam is that car, a machine of absolute perfection designed by an All-Knowing Creator, and being offered to you for free. You have witnessed the power and manificence of all the fundamental components and features of the car, and you have confessed that you are desperate to accept such an offer. But the only thing holding you back is trivialities like this?!

Think about the sublime concept of achieving tranquility through the devotion to the One Merciful creator of us all! Think about the Noble life of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the greatest example of compassion, generosity, tolerance, mercy and love the world has ever seen! Think about the message he brought and all the suffering and persecution he and his followers underwent, for what? For God alone, to spread this message of devotion and share it with all human beings, so that we all may come closer to God and fullfill our purpose in life, alleviating our distress and bringing peace to troubled minds.

This is all being offered to you for free and you witness others around you accepting the offer, and crying out of joy and gratitude to their merciful Lord who blessed them with guidance. What is holding you back? Do not allow satan to get the better of you, making trivialities obstacles to you accepting the truth. Accept Islam before your chance in life is over, for no soul will get a second chance.
http://www.islamicboard.com/590000-post40.html

Islam is the call of your soul. Don't suppress it. Embrace it.

Peace!

[chris4336]

Ansar - Thanks for the reply, it helped me step and see the big picture.

Eesa said to me awhile ago that it all comes down to faith the there is a higher power who knows you better than you know yourself. Maybe we do not understand all these rules, but we accept them as a part of faith.

I am really really trying to accept Islam, and sometimes I feel like I can, even though I do not undersand completely all the rules and regulations. But sometimes I feel like "How can I believe in a God that permits hitting your wife" or "Why would God let men have 3 more wives even if the first one would be really upset?" I know Muslims will say this a satan whispering in my ear. Maybe this is just my test from God? Maybe its Gods way of telling me that Islam is not for me? How am I supposed to know? That is why it is probably best for me to just do some soul searching or focus on the proofs of that the Quran is from God, rather than evaluating its content, based on my own morals.

I do understand your car analogy, but these things for me are not that trivial, rather they are a complete change in my value system. When you are taught your whole life, don't hit women, one man for one women, men and women should be equal partners in a marriage, it takes a lot of faith to change these views.

Here is how I tried to explain it to Eesa. Lets say there is a religion that accepted baby killing. And the members had all these justifications for killing your baby, like they would go hungry or maybe they had a deformity. But you still felt in your heart that killing babies was wrong. So now you must accept a God that permits baby killing. And you will have to defend baby killing to all your friends and family who are not part of this religion. And you might have to live one day surronded by people who are killing their babies. And you must now support legislation so that baby killers are not punished. Even though you personally would never kill your own baby. I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. This is how I feel with Islam. I know polygamy and hitting your wife are no where near as bad as killing your baby, but they are important issues for me. It just takes A LOT of faith I guess.

Anyway, thanks to all of your for trying to explain things to me.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam Sis Chris,

u may visit these sites to know more about women's right in Islam, pologamy etc.

I didn't read all the articles but seems good. Many articles are written by our revert ( new Muslim ) sisters.:) & brothers :happy:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm

Islam, Culture and Women

by Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood

How can anyone justify Islam's treatment of women, when it imprisons Afghans under blue shuttlecock burqas and makes Pakistani girls marry strangers against their will?


How can you respect a religion that forces women into polygamous marriages, mutilates their genitals, forbids them to drive cars and subjects them to the humiliation of "instant" divorce?


In fact, none of these practices are Islamic at all. [More]


Women's Rights and Equality in Islam
"At the beginning Islam was the most revolutionary liberalization of women's rights the civilized world has ever seen.


But afterwards Muslims became ignorant of this and now Muslim countries are the scene of some of the worst abuses of women's rights", contends American convert to Islam, Yahya M.

Women's rights in Islam

Websites by Muslim women

Women Converts to Islam

Hijab and Islamic Clothing

Polygamy

Advice to Muslim Women


Polygamy - The Ultimate Feminist Lifestyle
By Elizabeth Joseph

I've often said that if polygamy didn't exist, the modern American career woman would have invented it.


http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy3.htm

[chris4336]

Thank you very much Muslim Women, I will spend some time tonight going over these links :-)

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Maybe we do not understand all these rules, but we accept them as a part of faith.

We understand these rules and we see the wisdom for them. Right now, you do not just like a person who has never needed to use "km/hr" will not see the wisdom in such a feature.

But sometimes I feel like "How can I believe in a God that permits hitting your wife"

If that's what you're thinking then you are totally distorting the issue once again. You make it seem like some blanket permission to hit whenever you want, and that is totally UNISLAMIC. The correct statement would be "...a God that permits hitting only in cases of manifest indecency when it will prove productive, and only after all other methods, such as dialogue and seperation, have been exhausted." As soon as you put it into perspective, your objections dissolve.

"Why would God let men have 3 more wives even if the first one would be really upset?"

If the first wife doesn't want it then God has given her the ability to simply stipulate it in her contract and then he will not be able to marry another wife. If people follow the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and follow his teachings on kindness, love and compassion for one's spouse they will never fall into anything that is cruel to her or unfair.

Maybe this is just my test from God? Maybe its Gods way of telling me that Islam is not for me?

Would God ever tell one that submission and devotion to Him alone is not for one of His creation? That would be manifest injustice, and God is never unjust. Use the reason and understanding that God has blessed you with and you will see that the Islamic creed on belief in God and His Messengers is the clear and truthful path.

focus on the proofs of that the Quran is from God, rather than evaluating its content, based on my own morals.

But right now you are not even evaluating its content fairly. You aren't studying the message of the Qur'an in terms of monotheism, prophethood, the hereafter, etc. You are getting hung up on tabloid issues which are truly trivialities. Think about this thread, it is an entire discussion on just one word in the whole Qur'an, and even still you don't have a rational objection to it, you just admit that you don't know any cases where you would see such a step as effective. That's no reason to throw away such a magnificent gift! The gift of Islam!

When you are taught your whole life, don't hit women

Islam does not contradict that. Islam commands men to be loving and compassionate to their spouses and never abusive and to follow the lofty example of the Prophet. You are twisting and distorting a dispensation in one specific particular case of manifest indecency and even then only when it will prove productive. So the contradiction with your values actually does not exist here, it is but a figment of your imagination.

one man for one women

This is actually what most muslims practice and if one follows the teachings of Islam they will never do anything that is unjuts or cruel to their spouse, so again you are creating a conflict where there shouldn't be one.

men and women should be equal partners in a marriage

No conflict here either, Islam says that men and women both have equal status before God and they have complementary roles.
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...bsection=Women

And I am absolutely disgusted by your example on baby killing. How on earth can any sane person compare one one hand a non-violent, non-harmful, non-painful method of countering manifest indecency when it will prove productive, to infanticide on the other hand?!? This is abhorrent killing of innocent lives, which Islam prohibits! What kind of perverted logic places dealing lovingly and justly with one's spouse in the same boat as slaughter?! If we were talking about domestic violence and wife abuse then maybe such a comparison would be more appropriate, but I have clearly shown that Islam gives NO licence for any kind of domestic violence of abuse and it rejects such things completely! Your objection to this issue was not that you thought it was abusive or cruel, but you just didn't see the usefulness of this kind of 'tap' in such a situation. So then you should compare it to "km'hr" on a car, something harmless that you don't see the use for. Not the slaughter of innocents!! You have some serious re-thinking to do if you that is how little you understand about Islam's teachings on marriage. Contemplate the following teachings of the Prophet on marriage and then you will see how ludicrous and baseless the comparison of Islam's teachings on marriage to infanticide is:

The Prophet said: 'The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. I am the best of you to his wife and I'm the best to my wife.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ad-Dârimî, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'The believer should not harbor hatred towards his wife. If he dislikes something in her, then surely he will be pleased with another quality in her.' (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night: 'Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "he kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets.' (Sahîh Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abû Dawûd)
The Prophet said: "Iblîs (Satan) sets up his throne on water, then he sends out his armies of devils (to incite humans to do evil). The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation. One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' Iblîs says, 'You have not done enough.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then Iblîs comes close to this devil and says, 'How excellent you are!' " (Sahîh Muslim)

The Prophet said: 'If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11).' (Al-Kabâ'ir of Adh-Dhahabî)
The Prophet said: 'Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.' (Musnad Ahmad)


I hope you can see now how bad of an analogy that was. No religion on earth has as many exhortations, commands and orders to men to be loving and compassionate and fair to their spouses as Islam does. Will you spurn the beautiful religion of God for some misguided path?

I'll continue the discussion on polygamy with you in the other thread.
Regards

[GARY]

Hi Ansar,
I have read through the posts, and I am sorry if the info is there I must have missed it, but what would be defined as "light physical force"?

Also, as more of a comment then a question. It seems that the idea is that a person that believes that the other person in the marriage is not able to realize that they are being irrational, can use light force to "snap" them back into reality. The danger I see in this is, often people think they are the one that is being rational and 'right', but what if they are the one that is actually in need of being 'snapped' into reality (Ok, I guess it did end up being a question)? It may just end up being a case of a husband snapping his wife into his reality. Or open the door for an escalated dispute. Just seems that if used at all, should be reserved for only those that have the wisdom. Unfortunatly, many believe themselves to posess wisdom that they really do not.

[chris4336]

Well if you are disgusted then that was the point of the example. I know that its an extreme example but the point was to try to help you see things from my point of view, which apparently failed miserably. Just because you think something is trivial and not an issue doesn't mean the whole world is going to see it like that. That is why I picked an example I knew you would be disgusted by. Its something that you know is not right no matter how many reasons are excuses people give. This is how I see permission of hitting your wife under whatever circumstances. Its just not right, I don't care if its lightly or if it doesn't leave a mark. This is not a figment of my imagination, its a permission given to men by God that I personally don't think is necessary.

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC RATHER THAN POSTING DOZENS OF ALLEGATIONS ON OTHER TOPICS. THERE ARE OTHER THREADS ON THE FORUM DEDICATED TO EACH OF THE OTHER ISSUES YOU RAISED. IF YOU ARE UNSURE WHERE TO FIND SUCH THREADS, PM A MOD.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Gary,
Thanks for your post.

I have read through the posts, and I am sorry if the info is there I must have missed it, but what would be defined as "light physical force"?

Based on the Qur'an and Ahadith, the scholars have mentioned a few things. First, it should not be on the face or private parts. Second, it should in no way cause any harm or damage, such as that which results from violent strikes. It should never be the type of hit that leaves marks, like bruises or scratches etc. Thirdly, it should not be done in anger since then a person is likely to lose their self-control. A statement from Ibn Abbas shows how mild this is, when he said it is like using the miswâk.

And even any of this is only allowed in a situation of manifest indecency after all preceding methods have been tried.

Also, as more of a comment then a question. It seems that the idea is that a person that believes that the other person in the marriage is not able to realize that they are being irrational, can use light force to "snap" them back into reality. The danger I see in this is, often people think they are the one that is being rational and 'right', but what if they are the one that is actually in need of being 'snapped' into reality (Ok, I guess it did end up being a question)? It may just end up being a case of a husband snapping his wife into his reality. Or open the door for an escalated dispute. Just seems that if used at all, should be reserved for only those that have the wisdom. Unfortunatly, many believe themselves to posess wisdom that they really do not.

Yes, this is quite a fair comment. If people do not make good decisions, they will suffer as a result, whether that entails the deterioration of their marital relationship and family, or suffering legal consequences if they really go overboard. The Qur'an has given this dispensation to use when it will prove productive but it has also given a vast body of teachings on marital advice to guide one in making the best decisions and understanding the true loving nature of marriage. The use of such a dispensation does presuppose some judicious reasoning on the part of the one utilizing such a dispensation; there really is no way to say that "only people with wisdom can use this" except to offer a mass of teachings on marriage to guide one in making appropriate decisions.

Regards

[Umar001]

Its just not right,

Possible that you can pm me, I dont want to diviate the thread, but I want to ask, by what moral code is it not right? From what you have been taught? Who taught you it? What about a society that thinks "Its not right to believe in God" can they reject all religion based on that? Or other moral issues, "Its not right to call homosexuality a sin" based on that people reject God's mesage? So, how do you know your moral code is right?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Well if you are disgusted then that was the point of the example.

I explicitly stated that my disgust was more than just abhorring the issue of infanticide itself, but that I was disgusted at YOUR ridiculous comparison of this issue ot infanticide. Such an analogy is completely incoherent - especially, since you [seemingly] understood that we were discussing non-violent non-harmful behavior, as mild as a tap with a miswâk. And even all this only in a very specific scenario of manifest indecency. But all those detailed words of explanation seem to be completely lost on you when you throw out the window the fact that we are talking about a non-violent 'tap' as mild as a miswâk and that we are in no way even coming close to justifying domestic violence or any form of abuse. When I take the time to write these explanations and they go in one ear and out the other and the response is a ludicrous comparison to killing innocent children, can I be anything other than disgusted??

Even if you read your OWN posts from earlier in this thread, the problem was that you didn't see how this could be useful in such a scenario, NOT that you thought a mild tap was abusive. So why on earth would you compare it to something not only abusive but outright criminally heinous?!

I know that its an extreme example but the point was to try to help you see things from my point of view, which apparently failed miserably.

You're right, because such a view is based on deliberate distortion and willful ommission of context and basic facts.

Just because you think something is trivial and not an issue doesn't mean the whole world is going to see it like that.

Speaking from the point of rationality, it is self-evident that the fundamentals in life are our purpose behind our existence, the message of salvation, our destiny and afterlife, etc. etc. and certainly not whether a dispensation in such a specific scenario pertaining to such a specific stringent set of conditions could prove productive.

That is why I picked an example I knew you would be disgusted by.

It is not the example I'm talking about here, it is the fact that YOU made such a ludicrous comparison.

This is how I see permission of hitting your wife under whatever circumstances.

First of all, Islam prohibits any form of abuse, harm or domestic violence. Secondly, Islam also prohibits all such hitting and the Prophet pbuh showed us how it is not necessary. However, in the case of manifest indecency and after other methods of dialogue and seperation have been exhausted, only then is one able to use only the kind of light physical force that will prove productive and NOT cause any harm, but be as mild as the strike of a miswâk. There is NOTHING objectionable in this at all, and certainly no rational and objective grounds for one to reject Islam.

Note that this thread is specifically devoted to this topic. A classic tactic of anti-islamists is to try to raise as many spurious allegations as possible in one place so that their opponents do not have the opportunity to dissect and refute each one individually in detail. These kind of tactics don't fly here, so if you want to discuss other issues we can take them up in the countless other threads devoted to their discussion.

Regards

[chris4336]

I was not trying to derail the thread, just hoping that you would understand there are some things I find disgusting about Islam even after I read the threads.

The point was not that the actions were similiar. The point was so that you could maybe understand what it feels like to try to accept a religion with things in it that you find unacceptable.

You say that there is nothing objectionable in this permission to tap your wife but I disagree. I think the world could do without men being permitted to "strike" women with miswaks. It is not in my opinion an effective way of "snapping someone out of it," if it were we would see psychiatrists and therapists "tapping" their patients all the time. If it were effective, why doesn't the wife bring her husband to a third party mediator who will tap him? Why don't marriage counselors recommend it?

On top of that it has the great potential to be misused - Giving an angry, sexually frustrated man permission to "lightly tap" his wife so that she will understand the situation just doesn't seem like the best idea to me. I know that anything he does beyond this is not within the bounds of Islam, but isn't it common sense that he might over react (just like its common sense that woman shouldn't hit a man because he might be violent right back).

Why don't we just leave it as I find it an objectional ruling and you do not. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it even if you consider it illogical or irrational or whatever. Islam contains rulings that I personally consider objectional, so that is something that I personally have to deal with.

[Malaikah]

Giving an angry, sexually frustrated man permission to "lightly tap" his wife so that she will understand the situation just doesn't seem like the best idea to me.

We have already stated how many times that he is not allowed to be angry when he does it, and where on earth did this assumption of sexual frustration come from?

Chris, my mind honestly can not comprehend why you find this objectable. If it is because you think it can be abused, then this exists only in your mind and in the mind of those who deliberatly seek to twist the words of Alalh swt for their own twisted desires.

I see this ruling as a mercy from Allah swt on women where he forbids men to hit their wives in a way that men have been doing for only God knows how long. He only permits a light tap if is practical when other means have been exhausted.

About your argument that you were taught that men should never ever hit women no matter what... something tells me that hitting smeone lightly (i.e. in the Islamic way) doesnt even come under this kind of hitting. ^o)

[GARY]

We have already stated how many times that he is not allowed to be angry when he does it, and where on earth did this assumption of sexual frustration come from?

Chris, my mind honestly can not comprehend why you find this objectable. If it is because you think it can be abused, then this exists only in your mind and in the mind of those who deliberatly seek to twist the words of Alalh swt for their own twisted desires.

I see this ruling as a mercy from Allah swt on women where he forbids men to hit their wives in a way that men have been doing for only God knows how long. He only permits a light tap if is practical when other means have been exhausted.

About your argument that you were taught that men should never ever hit women no matter what... something tells me that hitting smeone lightly (i.e. in the Islamic way) doesnt even come under this kind of hitting. ^o)

Hi Cheese,
I am wondering if when you get married will you be ok with this? It is easy to say now, but what if your husband does this while you feel you are right in the dispute? And what happens if he does this and it doesn't "snap you into his reality"? What happens when you still see it your way?
Also, don't you think it will feel a bit humiliating? Won't it be embarassing, and feel like you have been disrespected (especially if you feel you are still in the right)?

[chris4336]

I thought he wasn't allowed to hit out of anger, but I can't imagine that he wouldn't be angry with the situation if his wife is behaving so badly? I also thought he might be sexual frustrated since first he has to remove himself from his wife, but you are right this might not always be the case.

Again which is why I said its my opinion. I find it objectionable because there was always a choice to just forbid men from hitting women lightly, and I'm just cannot understand why the choice was made to permit it. That is basically it.

Would you ever hit your mother, even if it was really lightly with a miswak so that she might grasp the severity of the situation?

[GARY]

That "she might grasp the severity of the situation" part kind of makes me wonder. It assumes that the husband always knows best. There are more than a few men out there that are dim-wits and if not for the wisdom of their wives would be a mess.

[chris4336]

Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

Anyway as it was explained to me previously on this thread there are times when hitting a man might be useful to help him see the error of his ways but in this case she is not supposed to hit him (because of fear of retaliation) rather bring him to some kind of third party mediator.

[Malaikah]

Hi Cheese,
I am wondering if when you get married will you be ok with this? It is easy to say now, but what if your husband does this while you feel you are right in the dispute? And what happens if he does this and it doesn't "snap you into his reality"? What happens when you still see it your way?
Also, don't you think it will feel a bit humiliating? Won't it be embarassing, and feel like you have been disrespected (especially if you feel you are still in the right)?

Hi Gary,

If I were right, then I would not let it even get past stage two, I would do what the wife is adviced to do when she is in the right- get a third person to help me and settle the matter between us inshaallah.

Also, no I do not find it humiliating, at the moment I am more worried about having done something so bad that my husband feels he needs to do the steps!!!:offended: (And good on him if he does the steps rather than just acting on his own desires)

Would you ever hit your mother, even if it was really lightly with a miswak so that she might grasp the severity of the situation?

Er I have absolutely no right to hit my mother, that is for her husband to do! And God forbid I would be more upset that my mother had acted so badly that my dad would feel if necessary to take these steps and I wouldnt even think twice if he tapped her with a toothbrush!! My thoughts would be with her rebelling against Allah swt and I would be happy that my dad is doing what Allah swt told him to do in such a situation!

That "she might grasp the severity of the situation" part kind of makes me wonder. It assumes that the husband always knows best. There are more than a few men out there that are dim-wits and if not for the wisdom of their wives would be a mess.

Thats the point Gary, the step are only to be done if the husband is right and the wife is wrong. If the wife feels she is right then their is nothing stopping her from seeking the help of a family member.

[Malaikah]

Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

May god help us all- when it comes to dim wits, no women is safe, no matter what religion the man belongs to because he will always have the ability to overpower her (Also, Even non-mulsims assume the husband to have some level of authority over the wife, with christians it is a part of their religion, the same as Islam, and with others it is something assumed even if they dont admit it). That is why it is so important to pick our husbands carefully.

[GARY]

Anyway as it was explained to me previously on this thread there are times when hitting a man might be useful to help him see the error of his ways but in this case she is not supposed to hit him (because of fear of retaliation) rather bring him to some kind of third party mediator.

But if the proper way is only a tap with no pain involved, then why would she need to fear retaliation?
Could the mediator be her older/bigger brother?

Hi Gary,
Also, no I do not find it humiliating, at the moment I am more worried about having done something so bad that my husband feels he needs to do the steps!!!:offended: (And good on him if he does the steps rather than just acting on his own desires)
.

This is where one of the potential problems arises. What if you don't feel that you have done anything "bad"? What if your husband decides many things you do are "bad", while you feel you are being good?

Thats the point Gary, the step are only to be done if the husband is right and the wife is wrong. If the wife feels she is right then their is nothing stopping her from seeking the help of a family member.

What about the husband that thinks he is right when he is not?

It's just my opinion, and obviously we will disagree, but I see the "steps" as something that is meant for an imaginary, magical, perfect world. It reminds me of the movie 'Pleasantville'. It is extremely unlikely that a man that cannot have a rational, reasonable discussion with his wife to settle a marital dispute, is going to be able to rationally, without anger, follow a set of steps, that leads to him being in a position that allows him to give her a tap. If he lacks the ability to reason with her, and is prone to 'tapping', he is likely going to be an angry man. That tap, will be more of a 'slap'.

[chris4336]

May god help us all- when it comes to dim wits, no women is safe

Haha finally something we can agree on!

[Malaikah]

This is where one of the potential problems arises. What if you don't feel that you have done anything "bad"? What if your husband decides many things you do are "bad", while you feel you are being good?
What about the husband that thinks he is right when he is not?

He would use Islamic standards, and like I said if the wife thinks he is wrong then she can take it to a third person to help them settle the issue.

It's just my opinion, and obviously we will disagree, but I see the "steps" as something that is meant for an imaginary, magical, perfect world. It reminds me of the movie 'Pleasantville'.

No they are meant for Muslims.

It is extremely unlikely that a man that cannot have a rational, reasonable discussion with his wife to settle a marital dispute, is going to be able to rationally, without anger, follow a set of steps, that leads to him being in a position that allows him to give her a tap. If he lacks the ability to reason with her, and is prone to 'tapping', he is likely going to be an angry man. That tap, will be more of a 'slap'.

But that discussion IS step one of the steps! He reasons with her, but she doesnt respond.

[GARY]

He would use Islamic standards, and like I said if the wife thinks he is wrong then she can take it to a third person to help them settle the issue.



No they are meant for Muslims.

But that discussion IS step one of the steps! He reasons with her, but she doesnt respond.

Sounds like you got it all figured out.

Life is not like the scenario you described. That would not work. A situation that developed that way would not be a calm situation that you described, with 'steps'. That option should not be availiable, it's a dangerous door to open. If a man feels the need to 'tap' a woman, he will be angry. Muslims are people too.

But hey, what do I know. It's just the opinion of an ignorant kafir.

I hope for your sake, and safety, that your future husband does not ever feel the need to 'tap' you.
Peace.

[Malaikah]

But hey, what do I know. It's just the opinion of an ignorant kafir.

Exactly.:thumbs_up God knows better than you or I do.

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
Recitation by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au

whole Quran recitation: http://quran.jalisi.com
&&&

What about a society that thinks "Its not right to believe in God" can they reject all religion based on that?

----- a good point , bro . In another forum , an Atheist told me he did not find it wrong that 2 brothers had secret relationship with step-mom when she was still dad's wife ( Bold & Beautiful). So, chris , if human being have to decide which is good , which is bad , there will be chaos. We all have differenet opininions.

Why would God let men have 3 more wives even if the first one would be really upset?"

----well Sis Chris , u did not give any suggestion for that young man who's wife is extremely sick ( unable to perform her duty as a wife ). Should he divorce her, cheat her or deprive himself for the rest of his life or what ?????


related link:

Dr. Zakir Naik
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/1.htm
Qur'ân permits limited polygyny
As I mentioned earlier, Qur'ân is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur'ân 4:3]



Before the Qur'ân was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur'ân 4:129]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:
(i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
(ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged


(iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
(iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged


(v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.

.... polygamy gives the opportunity for more unmarried women to be married, considering the fact that women exceed men in number. This in turn eliminates fornication and prostitution, thus greatly reducing the number of children born out of wedlock. Unfortunately, children born out of wedlock are being ostracized in the same way as their mothers are being look down by the society. In polygamy, children are recognized as legal offspring of their fathers just as their mothers are respected as legally married women.
There are several other reasons, why Islaam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.



For your Comments/ Suggestions/Criticisms, please do not hesitate to mail us at: answers@allaahuakbar.net
http://www.allaahuakbar.net

[hidden_treasure]

If you ask a Westerner if it’s OK to beat your wife the answer is “no”.

If you ask a Muslim it requires a 10,000 word debate between Muslims!

How can the West understand Islam when Muslims do not!

who said we dont understand Joe??? and yes u may ask a westerner if its ok to beat their wife, and yes they will more than likely say no, but behind closed doors is another story aint it?

Can u tell me what the big deal is about being tapped with a siwak?? it is not meant by any means to harm the woman, but to humiliate her, to show her that she has taken things way too far (for whatever reason)...

[hidden_treasure]

This is the beauty of islam, we have guidelines in all aspects of our lives.
I have never been "tapped" before by my husband, as i am obedient to him, and he in return treats me like his queen. I respect him, and he respects me, and we both try and please Allah as best we can.

When you fear God, you will try and be a good person, and be merciful to others.

[lolwatever]

:sl:
^ btw as for wat joe said that's sooo not true, i swear i've heard with my very own ears @ uni non Muslims going on about how 'women bashers are cool' :offended: let alone the other sexual insaults and harassment comments they hurl at girls ifnrotn and behind their backs!

so stop trying to claim moral high grounds that don't belong to you,

Funny some non Muslims jump to moral high grounds on thing slike this and polygamy without taking a good look at their own sorry states first :grumbling (trust me no matter how much they deny cheating doesnt occur, i assure u it's something taht non Muslims explicitly boast about in my work place :uuh: )

slightly off topic but i think they should keep out of this if ppl r gonna try pretend they're angelic, and finally.. i think this thread is going in circles man, pls b4 ne1 objects or post a question.. hav a read thru i assure u ur point has been answered or mentioned!!!!!!

:w:

[hidden_treasure]

[QUOTE=chris4336;593121]Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

yes, men are "supposed" to be the leaders of the household, thats correct. Its funny when i see western men for example, as i myself am a westerner, who are ruled by their nagging wives on the street. It just looks so ridiculous. He is too afraid to upset his wife, so he gives in to her every demand...these marriages only last a few years at the most, as he usually ends up in bed with another woman. He cannot stand his wife and her nagging, ruling, oppresive, aggresive, over the top ways any longer...
Thank God i have a real man.....!!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

The point was not that the actions were similiar.

Then by your own admission, the analogy was unwarranted.

And there seems to be another misunderstanding here. A rational objection is not one that entails constant recourse to statements such as "it is just my opinion" or "personally, i think"; nor is a rational objection something that is subjective. For you to bring a rational objection you would need to clearly demonstrate a logical contradiction or fallacy in the arguments I am advancing. As of yet, you have not done this.

It is not in my opinion an effective way of "snapping someone out of it," if it were we would see psychiatrists and therapists "tapping" their patients all the time.

Another flawed analogy. Psychiatrists are not living with their patients and going through all the steps (they only have enough time to go through the dialogue stage), nor are they even interested in saving a fictitious marital relationship with their patient from deterioration. Secondly, they are bound by legal restraints as well in terms of what they are allowed to do with their patient. Thirdly, cultural attitudes play a large role in shaping therapeutic theories - keep in mind that you are appealing to the same group of people that used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder only to have now replaced it with homophobia.

If it were effective, why doesn't the wife bring her husband to a third party mediator who will tap him?

Because typically mediation has nothing to do with that and a mediating party maintains trust from both sides by negotioating in an unbiased manner between both groups; they are not there for the purpose of hitting one party on behalf of the other. If the husband is still obtuse enough at the mediation stage to warrant a smack, then in all likelihood if the wife returns to him he might become even more abusive towards her.

Sure, you can always get someone to come hit the husband to get him to "snap out of it" but it is usually more trouble than he's worth.

Why don't we just leave it as I find it an objectional ruling and you do not.

By all means if you want to leave the issue and move on to other issues, go ahead, I'm not forcing you to continue posting in this thread. This thread is for the purpose of explaining the Islamic law pertaining to this issue, not for the purpose of me trying to convince chris4336 of a particular point of view. So if you have no further questions on the Islamic jurisprudence underlying this issue, then feel free to leave this thread and move on.

That is my opinion and I am entitled to it even if you consider it illogical or irrational or whatever.

I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion; but if you do not want to subject it to rational scrutiny and criticism then why espouse it in such a debate in the first place? If its your personal opinion that you don't want to discuss, fine keep it to yourself.

Islam contains rulings that I personally consider objectional, so that is something that I personally have to deal with.

...and just on a linguistic note, I wanted to point out that the word is objectionable not objectional!

Regards

[Iwant2no2]

I can't understand any type of domestic violence, meaning: "wife beating", "wife battering", "Man Beating", "husband battering", "relationship violence", "domestic abuse", "spousal abuse", and "family violence", or even the beating of an animal. That I do not understand, I will never understand anyone condoning this type of behaviour. I feel I never will understand it, maybe because I lived it for about one year and half.

I was in a very domestic violent relationship/marriage about 11 years ago. My views on this type of relationship is when the battering starts it never stops. It just gets worse. There are many different theories as to the causes of domestic violence. As with many phenomena regarding human experience, no one approach appears to cover all cases. Identified and proposed causes include a need for power and control, a form of bullying and social learning of abuse. Abusers' efforts to dominate their partners have been attributed to low self-esteem or feelings of inadequacy, unresolved childhood conflicts, the stress of poverty, hostility and resentment toward women, hostility and resentment toward men, personality disorders, genetic tendencies and sociocultural influences, among other possible causative factors. Most authorities seem to agree that abusive personalities result from a combination of several factors, to varying degrees. Factors associated with domestic violence also include substance abuse, mental illness, and many more.

These are my views, just as said above "when it starts it never stops". I just can not see anyone condoning wifebeating of any kind. It's a bad thing to think that any type strategy to gain or maintain power and control over any victim is a good thing to have in any marriage or relationship.

Just my views...... :peace:
Take care....

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,

I agree with everything you said, and I am very sorry to hear about what you had to go through. Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form. All such things are against Islam; it is interesting that you mentioned beating of an animal because even this too is prohibited in Islam:

A'isha said: 'I was once riding a difficult (slow-moving) camel, so I kept hitting it. When the Prophet saw me, he said: 'Be gentle, for gentleness adorns everything in which it is found, and its absence leaves everything tainted.' (Musnad Ahmad)

Islam commands kindness and compassion and prohibits harshness and cruelty. Look at the example of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH:

Mu'awiyah ibn al-Hakam al-Sulami said: 'By my father and mother, (I swear that) I never saw a teacher, before or after him, who was a better teacher than the Messenger of Allah. By God, he never shouted at me, or punished me, or insulted me.' (Sunan Ad-Dârimî)

When I went back to my userpage to copy these ahadith, I was reminded of some of the ahadith on anger and controlling anger:

The Prophet said: 'If one of you happens to be standing when he becomes angry, then he should take a seat. If this helps his anger to subside, then good and well. Otherwise, he should go and lie down.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî


Peace!

[Iwant2no2]

[QUOTE]

Greetings,

I agree with everything you said, and I am very sorry to hear about what you had to go through. Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form. All such things are against Islam; it is interesting that you mentioned beating of an animal because even this too is prohibited in Islam:

Thank you for your kind remarks Ansar Al-'Adl;593491. I was reading on the second posting on this thread, a guy with the screen name' "Igram" quoted from the Quran' the following: and I quote.... "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

What if it's the other way around and the man does all the wrong to her, can he be beat by his wife, and later divorced by her if he continues wronging her? I didn't read anything about what a woman can do to her husband if he wrongs her... Can a woman do anything to HIM? Then you said: "All such things are against Islam" If you say "Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form"... Then the Quran does use the word "beat" them. Just seems to me like a double standard on what the Quran says and what you are saying. I'm just not understanding that part. I like the things you said much more..... :) If I am wrong please explain........

That was a sweet story about the Camel. I have a horse, up until he was at least 4 years old he was little mean at times about bitting me. I can not count how many times he bite me, sometimes hard and sometimes just a nip, but a nip can hurt to and leave a nasty bruse. I found myself loosing my temper a few times with him, specially after a real brusing bite from him... :ouch: I would hit him with my open hand, { yeah just like that's really going to hurt a 1400 pound horse}, but never did I ever beat him with anything that would really hurt him. There were times I really wanted to kick the.... well ya know!! Then one day and old man told me if I didn't want to get bitten by my horse any longer to grab him by his halter, after he bites, and hold on tight with your hands {if you don't want to loose your teeth} and then bite him myself on his top lip, OK so I tried that one day, and believe me it worked, he never bite me every again. He is a now a great horse, and a good friend....

Take care... :peace:

[chris4336]

Ansar - Just because you do not see a fallacy in your arguments doesn't mean that I do not see a fallacy in your arguments. That is where the opinion factor comes in. I think its illogical to say that "It is only to be used when the husband is sure it will be effective" and give angry men the responsibility of determining when it will be effective. You think this is logical, so now what do we do? I also think that giving men the right to hit their wife lightly is a pretty bad idea because of the possible behavior it could lead to. These seem like rational objections to me, but they might seem irrational to you.

The analogy was misunderstood. My point was about the difficulties with accepting a religion while I still find some parts of it objectionable. Maybe this is something you cannot appreciate. I was not comparing the behaviors, which I thought I had stated. Rather I choose something that all people would find objectionable, so that maybe they could understand. You obviously cannot understand that its difficult to accept a religion that permits lightly tapping of a wife, because you do not find that objectional. So replace "lightly tapping of a wife" with any behavior that you find objectionable and then hopefully you can understand where I am coming from.

I now very clearly understand the Islamic law so I will move on.

Thanks for your concern about my language.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

What if it's the other way around and the man does all the wrong to her, can he be beat by his wife, and later divorced by her if he continues wronging her? I didn't read anything about what a woman can do to her husband if he wrongs her... Can a woman do anything to HIM? Then you said: "All such things are against Islam" If you say "Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form"... Then the Quran does use the word "beat" them. Just seems to me like a double standard on what the Quran says and what you are saying. I'm just not understanding that part. I like the things you said much more..... :) If I am wrong please explain........

We have been over each of these questions again and again in quite some detail. Please read the thread for the detailed answers. I really don't want to regurgitate all that info all over again, but since you asked so nicely I'll give you a quick run-down and for more detail, read my previous posts in this thread
1. The verse is speaking about a scenario where the wife is guilty of manifest indecency
2. In the scenario the husband has exhausted other methods of dispute resolution such as dialogue and temporary seperation
3. In this scenario the Qur'an gives a dispensation - not a command or even a recommdation - to use the method of 'daraba', when it will prove productive in evoking recognition on the part of the other party of the gravity of the situation and the manner in which their behaviour is threatening the relationship.
4. The word 'daraba' has been grossly distorted when translated as 'beat' because 'beat' implies repetitive violent strikes with intent to cause injury and harm - all of which is against Islam.
5. Daraba has been described as a non-violent swat/hit that does not cause harm, nor targets the face or private parts, but is almost as mild as the strike of a miswâk (twig).
6. Also, one is prohibited from hitting when angry, as the other hadith on anger show.
7. If the man is guilty of manifest indecency, then the wife can seek third-party mediation or get the arbitration of a judge. She should never stay in an abusive household, and the reason why she is not given the option to hit him is because that may endanger her further.
8. However, if he hurts her and she takes him to court, then by Islamic law she can have the same done to him that he did to her.

Again, these are just basic points without the detailed explanation and justification - if you're interested in that please go through and read the thread. Here are some teachings from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh on the subject in case you have not seen them either:

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'The believer should not harbor hatred towards his wife. If he dislikes something in her, then surely he will be pleased with another quality in her.' (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night: 'Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "he kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets.' (Sahîh Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abû Dawûd)
The Prophet said: "Iblîs (Satan) sets up his throne on water, then he sends out his armies of devils (to incite humans to do evil). The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation. One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' Iblîs says, 'You have not done enough.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then Iblîs comes close to this devil and says, 'How excellent you are!' " (Sahîh Muslim)

The Prophet said: 'If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11).' (Al-Kabâ'ir of Adh-Dhahabî)
The Prophet said: 'Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.' (Musnad Ahmad)

That was a sweet story about the Camel. I have a horse, up until he was at least 4 years old he was little mean at times about bitting me. I can not count how many times he bite me, sometimes hard and sometimes just a nip, but a nip can hurt to and leave a nasty bruse. I found myself loosing my temper a few times with him, specially after a real brusing bite from him... :ouch: I would hit him with my open hand, { yeah just like that's really going to hurt a 1400 pound horse}, but never did I ever beat him with anything that would really hurt him. There were times I really wanted to kick the.... well ya know!! Then one day and old man told me if I didn't want to get bitten by my horse any longer to grab him by his halter, after he bites, and hold on tight with your hands {if you don't want to loose your teeth} and then bite him myself on his top lip, OK so I tried that one day, and believe me it worked, he never bite me every again. He is a now a great horse, and a good friend....

Take care... :peace:

wow, that's a neat story! :) Thanks for sharing!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello chris,

Ansar - Just because you do not see a fallacy in your arguments doesn't mean that I do not see a fallacy in your arguments.

It is not a question of who sees what. If there is a logical fallacy in my arguments you should be able to expose the flaw - where is it? What is the logical error? You haven't mentioned it all, you just continue to say that in your opinion it is not effective, which does not amount to establishing fallacious reasoning in the opponent's argument in the first place.

I think its illogical to say that "It is only to be used when the husband is sure it will be effective" and give angry men the responsibility of determining when it will be effective.

Angry men are not give the decision. Re-read what I posted on anger:


The Prophet said: 'If one of you happens to be standing when he becomes angry, then he should take a seat. If this helps his anger to subside, then good and well. Otherwise, he should go and lie down.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî)

You can't even shout or yell when you're angry, let alone beat others. So your presumtion that angry men are given authority here and licence to unleash their anger is totally baseless.

I also think that giving men the right to hit their wife lightly is a pretty bad idea because of the possible behavior it could lead to.

First, your not even objecting to the act in and of itself, your only objection is that someone can misuse the dispensation. Right from here YOU need to recognize that none of your objections are against what the Qur'an says, but only against how people can misuse it. Second, I already answered this objection as well way at the beginning of our debate.
1. Qur'an and Sunnah lay down strict guidelines and stringent conditions for the implementation of such rules
2. The slippery slope argument can apply to absolutely anything. Human beings are not robots who need 800 page programs delineating thousands of parameters which still will not cover all scenarios. We have brains and we are responsible for making sound judgements and we know the sunnah and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh which we have to follow.
3. If we apply the same slippery slope argument to both sides, you would have to object to every single marital law system in the world because none of them have turned the grey area black and white; as I said:

Actually the same 'slippery-slope' argument can be applied to anything in this regard, irrespective of where you choose to draw the line. When does a spouse's playful shove become an aggressive push? When does an annoyed slap become an inappropriate smack? When does an exasperated grab become a threatening clutch? When does an unwanted pinch become a abusive squeeze?

What you must realize is that there is inherent subjectivity when it comes to physical contact and interactions amongst human beings. And most people have reasonable judgement; we're not robots or computers who need an 800 page programming of the exact parameters of appropriate contact, which will never be free of grey areas anyway. In your day to day interactions you need to be a judge on what kind of conduct is allowed. If someone acts excessively it is usually quite obvious, especially if the case winds up in court for domestic violence.

As Muslims we have the lofty standard of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to apply in all aspects of our lives and this is how his own wife described him:
`Âishah said: “Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) never once struck a servant of his nor a woman, nor did he strike anyone with his hand.” [Sahîh Muslim (2328), Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4786), Sunan Ibn Mâjah (1984), as quoted from Sunan Ibn Mâjah]

So even if you say 'no hitting period', the 'period' is only in your imagination since the grey areas continue forever and physical contact will still occur between couples; and when it is deemed excessive by one party it will be brought before the courts and the decision will be clear as will the punishment.

The analogy was misunderstood.

The analogy was not misunderstood, it was an awful, ludicrous and completely baseless analogy. Your pertinacious insistence on such a perverted scheme of reasoning serves you no benefit if you intend to have a productive dialogue.

I was not comparing the behaviors, which I thought I had stated. Rather I choose something that all people would find objectionable, so that maybe they could understand.

so if in my personal opinion biking is not as effective as skateboarding, should I just compare all bikers to baby-killers?!

So replace "lightly tapping of a wife" with any behavior that you find objectionable and then hopefully you can understand where I am coming from.

It doesn't work that way - the behaviour must be analogous. If I replace 'lightly tapping' with 'mass genocide' that is not a fair comparison!!

I now very clearly understand the Islamic law so I will move on.

Bravo. Hope you find other more fruitful discussions on the forum.

Regards

[Chuck]

5. Daraba has been described as a non-violent swat/hit that does not cause harm, nor targets the face or private parts, but is almost as mild as the strike of a miswâk (twig).

One thing I don't understand, how this kind of tapping gona have any effect on the spouse. If they are cheating, this wouldn't force them to change. The word also means part or separate. I also read somewhere in a hadiths that prophet (pbuh) tapped a companion with miswak to warn the person that he have to leave the mosque if he continues the behavior.

[chris4336]

One thing I don't understand, how this kind of tapping gona have any effect on the spouse. If they are cheating, this wouldn't force them to change. The word also means part or separate. I also read somewhere in a hadiths that prophet (pbuh) tapped a companion with miswak to warn the person that he have to leave the mosque if he continues the behavior.

At least I am not the only one who doesn't think its a great way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways. But Ansar said you can only use it if you think it will be effective. I would love to see that Hadith because I think it would be wonderful to see the "tapping" is not just something that women have to put up with.

Ansar - How can you even say the man won't be angry if his wife is acting with such "nasty conduct?" If he is not angry, then why does he even bother tapping her?

Since you since have absolutely no regards for unIslamic behavior let the women hit the men as well. If the men retaliate they are outside of Islam and its not your problem.

And since you are such an expert on analogies, let me remind you that you compared a religion to a car, and permission to hit your wife lightly to a "Km/h" part of that car. But I'm sure your analogy makes perfect sense to you.

[Chuck]

At least I am not the only one who doesn't think its a great way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways. But Ansar said you can only use it if you think it will be effective. I would love to see that Hadith because I think it would be wonderful to see the "tapping" is not just something that women have to put up with.

I don't have the hadiths, I bumped into the hadith when I was searching for another hadith. I think my point was not clear. I meant this kind of tapping can't force anyone to change, in other words, it is not something forceful. Unless it has a symbolic meaning or you go by the other meaning of the word, which is to leave/depart.

[chris4336]

Ah okay I misunderstood. It seems to me that Muslims think its symbolic meaning might get people to change, however I find this doubtful.
I am really in no place to respond, but I would think if a correct interpretation is "leave/depart" it wouldn't have been necessary to have this whole discussion.

[soulsociety]

:sl:

Everyone needs to understand that Islam is not pacifism. It allows Corporal punishment at many levels, state and domestic. What's the problem with that? At least it is consistent with itself.

1. You try reasoning with her.
2. Don't sleep together.
3. Slap her, but not on the face and do not leave a mark.

I'm quite dubious about this toothbrush thing. I mean there's record of Umar(RA) giving his wife a good smack, Abu Bakr (RA) telling a man to discipline his wife and so on.

[chris4336]

I found this Hadith hopefully someone can explain why Mohamed did not say anything to the husband about the bruise:

Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/072.sbt.html

[IbnAbdulHakim]

because Abdur Rahman (RA) had good reason and the womans statement of calling her husband useless is a comment which according to another hadith the women of hell make. (i only came to this conclusion because the prophet saws didnt admonish abdur rahman)

Whats Rifa'a?

[chris4336]

I thought men had no right in Islam to leave a mark even if they have a "good reason"?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I thought men had no right in Islam to leave a mark even if they have a "good reason"?

Laa adree, sorry chris i honostly dont know. Thanks for showing me that hadith subhaNAllah, i'll research on it, sorry for not being able to provide an answer straight away. i'll hopefully find out tonight inshaAllah (God willing)

[chris4336]

thanks anyway

[Iwant2no2]

Ansar Al-'Adl

4. The word 'daraba' has been grossly distorted when translated as 'beat' because 'beat' implies repetitive violent strikes with intent to cause injury and harm - all of which is against Islam.
5. Daraba has been described as a non-violent swat/hit that does not cause harm, nor targets the face or private parts, but is almost as mild as the strike of a miswâk (twig).
6. Also, one is prohibited from hitting when angry, as the other hadith on anger show.

Thank you for your great answers. I am so sorry you have talked about this many times before. I haven't read all the forums, so please understand. I did a bit a research in the Arabic dictionary on the word "Daraba"..... I found also that the word has many different meanings, {like you said grossly distorted". Could be it's an arabic word that's been translated maybe in the "wrong way". Instead of using the word "beat", it could be translated as "strike, and seperate them out" (from you). I mean look at it this way. How could it be said: "beat out from you?" It seems it makes more sense' since the Quran is against "wifebeating". The words striking, and beating can mean many different things in English too, so I truly think the word "Daraba" is a wrongly Arabic translated word with-in the English language...(ya never know, as they say) I did read also that Daraba is a verb.... as having at least ten different meanings. "daraba" has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, I read in the Arabic language, you do not print money--you "daraba" money, you do not multiply numbers--you "daraba" numbers, you do not cease the work--you "daraba" the work. In Turkish they have many verbs similar to daraba, such as "tutmak", "calmak", "vurmak" etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to "daraba". These are "strike" and "beat".

Seems to make more sense now... Thanks you so much for helping me out on this one. I do wish I knew a bit of the Arabic language. I think if I knew just a little' it would help me know more about what Iwant2no. :) You have been kind, thank you.

Take care....

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

One thing I don't understand, how this kind of tapping gona have any effect on the spouse. If they are cheating, this wouldn't force them to change. The word also means part or separate. I also read somewhere in a hadiths that prophet (pbuh) tapped a companion with miswak to warn the person that he have to leave the mosque if he continues the behavior.

:sl: Chuck,
I already answered that here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/591600-post101.html

I don't have the hadiths, I bumped into the hadith when I was searching for another hadith. I think my point was not clear. I meant this kind of tapping can't force anyone to change, in other words, it is not something forceful.

It is not meant to force anyone to change. The hitting is meant to evoke recognition of the deterioration of the marriage and the manner in which the other party's behaviour is threatening the family.

Greetings Chris,

Ansar - How can you even say the man won't be angry if his wife is acting with such "nasty conduct?"

Very simple - I never said that. I said that he is obligated to control his anger and not to let his anger control him:

The Prophet said: 'If one of you happens to be standing when he becomes angry, then he should take a seat. If this helps his anger to subside, then good and well. Otherwise, he should go and lie down.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî)

So the image you painted of giving an angry or enraged man this decision is not true; if he gets angry he is not even allowed to scream and shout he has to go lie down and calm down.

If he is not angry, then why does he even bother tapping her?

I said alreayd at the beginning that he is not trying to punish her or unleash his anger. The hit is to evoke recognition of the gravity of the situation.

Since you since have absolutely no regards for unIslamic behavior

False accusation.

let the women hit the men as well. If the men retaliate they are outside of Islam and its not your problem.

I already answered this. If the women do such a thing they could be endangering themselves especially if they do it to a man who is already guilty of manifest indecency.

And since you are such an expert on analogies, let me remind you that you compared a religion to a car, and permission to hit your wife lightly to a "Km/h" part of that car. But I'm sure your analogy makes perfect sense to you.

I compared this whole issue to the "km/hr" marking because this is a trivial issue in the grand scope of doctrine and theology, since this is a specific discouraged but allowed method of reconcilliation confined to a very specific set of circumstances and restricted under very stringent conditions. So to make this an obstacle to one's acceotance of Islam is only oppressing oneself. That example was about accepting Islam, but I gave that example back there when I had a very different impression of you and your attitude!

I found this Hadith hopefully someone can explain why Mohamed did not say anything to the husband about the bruise:

Actually, the other hadith fill in the picture, and they tell us that the Prophet said after such complaints reached him from women, "Many women have come to the family of Muhammad complaining about their husbands. Those men are certainly not the best of you!" (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan An-Nasâ'î, and others)

The Prophet also expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Sahîh Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim).

Regards

[Malaikah]

:sl:

Ansar Al-'Adl, is there any punishment specified punishment or required course of action for men who hit their wives in a way not allowed by the Quran and sunnah?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

:sl:

Ansar Al-'Adl, is there any punishment specified punishment or required course of action for men who hit their wives in a way not allowed by the Quran and sunnah?

Yes, he is taken to court and then he is punished as much as the amount of harm he caused his wife, as per the law of retribution.

:w:

[SirDemonic]

wife beating is just bang out of order

theirs the word "DIVORCE" use it if you need it :happy:

[cali dude]

how about husband beating? is it allowed in islam?

[zaki.aumeerudy]

salaam walaykum,
as you can see from my avatar i am a revert and this ayat was my main obstacle on my way to islam. if you read it carefully, in most of translations it mentions beating of a wife. even though i do understand that it means lightly and not to hurt, i still feel it goes in contradiction with prophet's SAW teachings where women are supposed to be highly respected and beating avoided and never resorted to.

can anyone with a deeper knowledge of islam clarify it for me please as i still can't understand it.

as far i as know the ulama has explained that thsi beating should be in a certain way that no mark is left on the persons body and never in the face
the word beating is not good here i am not native english to give another word i look into the dictionary it syay rebuky,reprove

[Malaikah]

how about husband beating? is it allowed in islam?

No. Why would she hit her husband, when he has the potential to hit her back, and harder? Especially considering how arrogant men are with respect to such things, what kind of trap would that be setting? It would not achieve anything and would just put the wife in a very dangerous position.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

how about husband beating? is it allowed in islam?

---hehe , be practical.



U can’t beat anyone who is physically stronger than u , u will hurt badly then.



If situation is that bad that wife & hubby need to fight with each other , then it’s better to end the married life. OF course , they should follow the correct procedure.


Some religions have restriction on woman’s divorcing husband & re-marry. Islam does not prohibit women doing so if necessary.

Islam does not encourage divorce but allows it if needed.

[Emperor]

Interesting article, thanks for posting it.

[Emperor]

Here's Ahmed Ali's rendering of that verse.

4:34. Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great.

[zaki.aumeerudy]

No. Why would hit her husband, when he has the potential to hit her back, and harder? Especially considering how arrogant men are with respect to such things, what kind of trap would that be setting? It would not achieve anything and would just put the wife in a very dangerous position.

We have come many cases of wives hitting their husband and it nearly ended to divorce when we found that it were cases of devil possesion .The hitting was very violent
I would rather say if the idea of hitting your wife come you would better go out of the house and take some fresh air till u become normal because normally hitting is done in case of anger and the prophet has always disapproved of it
to remember that a sahabah came to the prophet and ask for an advice and the prophet said three times do not get angry
hope it did not offence anyone

[tomtomsmom]

If I get hit, I am going to hit back......period. I don't care how big he is or how much stronger than me he is. That just means that I won't fight fair. The first thing I can get my hands on will go directly to the side of his head and he better be smart enough to not get back up.

[zaki.aumeerudy]

If I get hit, I am going to hit back......period. I don't care how big he is or how much stronger than me he is. That just means that I won't fight fair. The first thing I can get my hands on will go directly to the side of his head and he better be smart enough to not get back up.

this depends on people character but it is also human
i was attacked by a chinese guy who hit me hard but since i was practising martial arts i did not reply and the kick did not do much on me .I just look at him he felt afraid and run away.I was afraid to kick him .i KNOW THAT with one punch i could kill him . On my side i do not reply if i do it could be disastrous till now

[ella]

Islam is very definitive about a women's position in regards to a man. The Quran commands men to beat their wives if their wives persist in disobedience to her husband's requests or orders. This is a brutal way to subject women to men's commands, and as we see in Saudi, it opened the door for women to become almost de-humanized. By establishing that a women is not able to control herself, placing men as 'managers' of women, and further even commanding men to beat women, Islam makes women 2nd class people. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical and psychological abuse of women allowed and commanded by Islam……………

[zaki.aumeerudy]

Islam is very definitive about a women's position in regards to a man. The Quran commands men to beat their wives if their wives persist in disobedience to her husband's requests or orders. This is a brutal way to subject women to men's commands, and as we see in Saudi, it opened the door for women to become almost de-humanized. By establishing that a women is not able to control herself, placing men as 'managers' of women, and further even commanding men to beat women, Islam makes women 2nd class people. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical and psychological abuse of women allowed and commanded by Islam……………

are u referring to the verse 4;34

[Emperor]

Are you here for any reason other than to attack Islam?

[zaki.aumeerudy]

Islam is very definitive about a women's position in regards to a man. The Quran commands men to beat their wives if their wives persist in disobedience to her husband's requests or orders. This is a brutal way to subject women to men's commands, and as we see in Saudi, it opened the door for women to become almost de-humanized. By establishing that a women is not able to control herself, placing men as 'managers' of women, and further even commanding men to beat women, Islam makes women 2nd class people. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical and psychological abuse of women allowed and commanded by Islam……………

I thinl u are mis- informed about islaam
the verse of quran u are talking about talks about woman practising infidelity

[Malaikah]

The Quran commands men to beat their wives if their wives persist in disobedience to her husband's requests or orders.

You must have missed the part that said beating is only allowed to occur after she has been told off for her wrong behaviour, and after her husband has abandoned her bed, and only if she persists? And that the hit isn't allowed to leave any marks or bruises and isn't allowed to be on the face? And that it only applies when women are clearly in the wrong?

This is a brutal way to subject women to men's commands,

It is brutal to force men to talk to their wives who are guilty of manifest indecency and then to leave their beds and then to hit them but only lightly as a last resort only? Don't you see how that is a protection for women?

By establishing that a women is not able to control herself, placing men as 'managers' of women,

Excuse me? Just because men are in control of the household and responsible for taking care of their wives, doesn't mean that Islam degraded women in anyway! All it means is extra work and responsibility for the men!

and further even commanding men to beat women,

Commanding? Get the context correct before you make such claims please.

Islam makes women 2nd class people.

False.

women are people who are to treated kindly,

And treating someone kindly is a crime?:uuh:

but severely disciplined when they get out of line.

As are men! Except that the women isn't the one who disciplines her husband, since she does not have the power to do so, she takes it to a higher authority to do the disciplining for her!

There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical and psychological abuse of women allowed and commanded by Islam……

Obviously, when you twist the facts around the way you have, there is no justification. But when you actually look at what Islam teaches you will realise the wisdom and beauty behind it, and the elevation of the status of women.

As Muslim women, we know fully well how we are treated, considering that this is how we live our lives, and we happy enough without people coming into our territory and accusing us of being oppressed, second class citizens, I don't think you realise how offensive your post was. Let's leave the Islam-bashing for the media please.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Islam is very definitive about a women's position in regards to a man. The Quran commands men to beat their wives if their wives persist in disobedience to her husband's requests or orders. This is a brutal way to subject women to men's commands, and as we see in Saudi, it opened the door for women to become almost de-humanized. By establishing that a women is not able to control herself, placing men as 'managers' of women, and further even commanding men to beat women, Islam makes women 2nd class people. Like a kept prized animal, women are people who are to treated kindly, but severely disciplined when they get out of line. There is no way to justify this degrading, institutionalized, physical and psychological abuse of women allowed and commanded by Islam……………

Lol, I wanna laugh at you but i wont. Ill just say, as long as this thread has gone...nothing really sat in your mind...:X

[zaki.aumeerudy]

Lol, I wanna laugh at you but i wont. Ill just say, as long as this thread has gone...nothing really sat in your mind...:X

i think that the importance of thsi conversation is beating
we should compare beatings in islamic country and non islamic one,then we will know who is the best beater ,muslim or non muslim .what do you think .
u will be the winner before the start

[NoName55]

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Author:
Br. Estes

RasulAllah P.B.U.H. Said:
"Never beat God's handmaidens."
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

Question:
Could you please tell me why the Quran tells men to "beat them" meaning their wives? (chapter 4, verse 34)

Answer:
Thank you for asking about Islam. It is our committment to try our best to provide answers to questions to the best of our ability. However, sometimes we come across questions for which we do not have answers. In this case we will refer you to others who may be able to provide you with proper answers.

Please be aware that we as Muslims, must never lie about anything, especially our religion.

Secondly, we do have the original text of the Quran and the preserved teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him. This enables us to verify exactly what was said, intended and taught by Muhammad, peace be upon him, as being the religion of Islam.

Third, I would like to remind myself and all who read this in the future that not all questions are purely questions. Some contain statements and implications, that may or may not be true.

Finally, it is important to keep in mind anytime we discover something in the answers to actually be better than what we already have, we should be committed to change our position and accept that which is true over that which is false and take that which is better for that which is inferior.

After taking all of the above into consideration, if we find that the answer to this question provides us with a better approach to understanding what Almighty God has provided us with as a way of life on this earth and in the Next Life, we should then make the logical decsion to begin to worship Him on His terms.

Having said that, let us now look to the particular verse in question in the original text (Arabic), followed by the phonetic sounds in Latin letters and then finally, followed by a translation of the meaning to the English language by experts in both Arabic and in Quranic meanings.

Transliteration
Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisa-i bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran

Explanation (tafsir) of Sura 4:34
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding the woman who is guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Meaning of the Words
For the three words fa'izu, wahjaru, and wadribu in the original, translated here ‘speak to them in a persuasive manner’, ‘leave them alone (in bed - fi'l-madage'),’ and ‘have intercourse’, respectively, see Raghib Lisan al-'Arab and Zamakhsari. Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qur'an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. Fa-'izu, he says, means to 'to talk to them so persuasively as to melt their hearts.'
(See also v.63 of this Surah where it has been used in a similar sense.)
Hajara - Wahjaru (do not touch or moleste them)
Hajara, he says, means to separate body from body, and points out that the expression wahjaru hunna metaphorically means to refrain from touching or molesting them. Zamakhshari is more explicit in his Kshshaf when he says, 'do not get inside their blankets.'
Here is the translation of meaning of the verse as best can be defined according to the rules of understanding Quran with the explanations following this translation:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). Regarding women guilty of lewd, or indecent behavior, admonish her (if she continues in this indecency then), stop sharing her bed (if she still continues doing this lewd behavior, then), [set forth for her the clear meaning of either straighten up or else we are finished and when she returns to proper behavior take up sharing the bed with her again], but if she returns in obedience (to proper behavior and conduct) then seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.”

Let me begin by explaining the English language is not powerful enough when it comes to translating the meanings of the Arabic of the Quran. Nor for that matter, is any other language on earth. So, all we have is translations of meanings according to the best understanding of the translators.

The operative word in this verse in Arabic is "daraba." While there are literally hundreds of uses for this word varying from "tap" to "walk in stride" to "strike at something" to "set a clear example", the only meaning that can be assigned to something in the Quran must be according to the rules of Quran. And Allah has used the same word a number of times with a consistent meaning. Let us examine them.

Here is what we find from the scholars of the Arabic language:
Daraba (to have intercourse, not to beat)

Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-fahl an-naqah, 'the stud camel covered the she-camel,' which is also quoted by Lisan al-'Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

Daraba (to set forth, to make a clear statement or proclamation)
One of the key rules of understanding words of the Quran is to go to other places in the Quran to investigate the usage in other places. This word is used by Allah in other places in the Quran to mean "set forth" or "sets up for you" or "makes known to you" - as is demonstrated in the following verses:
Surah Ar-Ra'd (13:17) yadribu Allahu al-amthala “Thus Allah sets forth a parable”
[here the word "yadirbu" is from the exact same root da-ra-ba]
Surah Ibrahim (14:24): Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan .. “Don’t you see how Allah sets forth a parable?..”
And again in the next verse: Surah Ibrahim (14:25) wa yadribu Allahu al-amthala li-naasi
“..and Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
[again the word yadirbu is from da-ra-ba]
Surah An-Nur (24:35) wa yadribu Allahu al0amthala lin-naasi
“And Allah sets forth parables for mankind..”
Surah Ar-Rum (30:28) Daraba lakum mathalan min anfusikum
“He sets forth for you a parable from yourselves..”
Surah At-Tahreem (66:10) Daraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena kafaroo..
“Allah sets forth an example for those disbelievers..”
In fact, the word daraba has not been translated to mean (beat) or (hit) or (strike) in any other verse of the Quran except this one.
The words for (beat) as in [to hit] found in Surah Baqarah 2:275 ... kama yaqoomu allathee yatakhabbatuhu ash-shaytanu mina almassi..
"..like the standing of someone beaten by the devil (Satan) leading him to insanity."

And in Surah Ta Ha 20:18 Allah Says, “Qala hiya Aasaya atawakkao Aalayha waahushshu biha Aala ghanamee waliya feeha maaribu okhra.”
"This is my stick, whereon I lean, and wherewith I beat down branches for my sheep and wherein I find other uses."

As you can see, these are not even related to the word (daraba).
Verses 34 and 35 in Surah An-Nisaa' need to be read together to understand this is the proper relationship between men and women in general and husband and wife specifically.

Islam seeks to hold the family together and to make peace and reconciliation between spouses. The next verse makes it clear what to do in the case where it seems that divorce may be the result of the uncorrected bad behavior. It stresses appointing arbitrators from both sides and seeks reconciliation.

The first part of 34 deals with all men taking care of all women. Then goes on to explain the wife's proper obedience to Allah because He is the One Who has ordained this relationship of provision and protection for her and to be appreciative and respectful of her husband, guarding herself and his property in his absence. The man is told the proper way to behave when he finds his wife not complying with decency and proper behavior of a Muslim wife. He has a direct order to begin with admonishing her and then if there is compliance to leave her be and don't give her a hard time about it.

However, if this continues, he should not have sex with her and this makes it clear to her that he is most serious and this not a joke. Again, if she comes around then he is to let it go and not bother her about it. Finally, if she still insists on such lewdness and bad conduct, he is to make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that they are going to be heading for separation or even divorce unless she comes back to proper behavior. Again, if she complies, then he should not bring it up and return to the bed with her.
And of course, this is all in an effort to translate one short but powerful phrase from Arabic to English. The sources are quoted herein and there may be other interpretations but the only acceptable ones are those based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.
And as always, Allahu 'Alim (Allah is the Knower)

Source: al-Qur'an: a contemporary translation by Ahmed Ali, Princeton University Press, 1988; pp78-79

In the past, some translators of this verse have mistakeningly used the word "beat" or "hit" or even "scourge" (as in the case of an old translation) to represent the word "daraba" in Arabic. This is not the opinion of all scholars especially Raghib and Zamakhshari as mentioned above and those who are well grounded in both Islam understanding and the English language.
34.
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill*conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great.
The understanding now is that some of the translations are not properly representing the spirit of the meaning. Therefore, they cannot be considered to be the representation of what has been intended by Almighty God.

Now we can properly understand that Almighty God has commanded the men to provide for the women and allow them to keep all of their wealth, inheritance and income without demanding anything from them for support and maintenance. Additionally, if she should be guilty of lewd or indecent conduct, the husband is told to first, admonish her and then if she would cease this lewdness. If she should continue in this indecency, then he should no longer share the bed with her, and this would continue for a period of time. Finally, if she would repent then he would take up sharing the bed with her again.

And Allah is All Knowing of the meanings.

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[mustafajadeed]

Salam Alay Koom:

Let's try to make life simple as possible:

Did you ever read where the Prophet (saw) beat his wives? No. He was the Example to follow, was he not?

For those who are "weaker" is the rule of Beat your wife <I>Lightly</I>. Does that mean beat her up? no.

But I repeat, did the Prophet (saw) beat his wives? No.

I rest my case.

Salam Alay koom

[NoName55]

why are you bumping needlessly with the message?

Let's try to make life simple as possible

it is irritating the hell out of me!

wa-salam

[Uthman]

:sl:

Brother NoName55, please calm down. :) I'm sure it wasn't mustafajadeed's intention to offend you.

Btw, your post above his is extremely useful, especially the analysis of the word 'Daraba'. :)

:w:

[yahia12]

Anyone explain this:

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 2127:
”…He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?...”


004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

Anyone explain this:

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 2127:
”…He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?...”

Answer to the mistranslation:


The term used in the hadith is:


Imam Nawawi in his Sharh states that:


The word "lahada" according to the lexicographers means, "to push" (dafa'a).

The usage of the word "struck" is not a correct translation. Rather, the phrase should be translated as (as sheikh Gf haddad said):

- He pushed my chest with a push that made me sore

Secondly, this calls to an important matter that is related to the Hand imposition of the Prophet - Allah bless him - because it is a gesture associated with driving away evil influence (wasw&#226;s) and conferring blessing as the following reports show:





1. Ubay ibn Ka`b said:


"There occurred in my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah - Allah bless and greet him - saw how I was affected, he slapped me on the chest. I broke into a sweat and felt as if I were looking at All&#226;h in fear." (Sahih Muslim)


2. Jarir ibn Abdullah Al Bajal&#238; was sent by the Prophet - Allah bless him - on a mission to destroy Dhu Al Kahalasa, the idol-house of Khatham, nicknamed the Yemenite Kaba. Jarr narrates:

"I went along with a hundred and fifty horsemen but I could not sit steadily on horse. I mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah - Allah bless and greet him - who then struck his hand on my chest so hard that I could see the trace of his fingers on it, saying: 'O Allah! Grant him steadfastness and make him a guide of righteousness and a rightly-guided one!' (Bukhari and Muslim)



More proof that the correct translation is ‘He pushed my chest with a push that made me sore’

Aaishah (Radhiallahu 'Anha) said: "Allaah's Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of Allaah. Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman." [Recorded by Ibn Maajah. Al-Albaanee graded it Saheeh.]

Wife-beating can’t be considered "in the Cause of Allaah" - the reference in the Hadeeth is a reference to Jihaad on the battlefield. "When the prohibitions of Allaah were violated" is a reference to someone committing a crime, and their being tried and then punished by flogging. This is not a reference to the way a husband should treat his wife. So here we clearly see in a sahih (authentic) hadith that Aisha clearly told that the prophet ‘never hit a servent or a women’.


So this is also a clear proof that the usage of the word "struck" is not a correct translation. Rather, the phrase should be translated as (as Gf haddad said):

- He pushed my chest with a push that made me sore

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

This has been explained in this thread already in depth. And Allaah knows best.

[islamirama]

i think clarification is in order here. Islam does NOT allowed wife beating, kids beating, or any beating of that sort. The word beating itself signifies striking violently without holding back and doing so repeatedly.

So does islam allow beating? No.

why did islam mention this then?

As we already know, domestic violence is in every society. And men abuse and hit their wives at the slightest things sometimes (yes, in the west too) and they do get carried away 9/10 times. so?

So islam limited the "beating" as a last result when the wife does not obey and all other means have been exhausted, and it also has put a LIMIT on as to how much force you can use to strike her and where at. By doing so, it has actually protected women from men from hitting and from the amount of force they can use or where they hit.

Blessing in disguise that the ignorants like to pick on and not opening their eyes to the real domestic abuse going on in each of their own society.

[NoName55]

islam limited the "beating" as a last result when the wife does not obey

no beating of any sort, as first or last resort!

we are given other remedies as first and last resort!

[Umm Yoosuf]

This thread is getting very boring and tiring with repetitive statements/comments/ remarks etc . I shall reply with what I hope would be the very last of this thread.


:threadclo