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Muslim Woman
12-28-2006, 12:53 AM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&


In the Quran, God directs Muslims to call readers of the Bible back to that true faith.

God have said in the Quran:


Say: “O people of the Book (Christians and Jews)! Come to a word that is just between us and you:

that we shall worship none but God, ]/b]and that we shall [u]associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords beside God.” (Quran, 3:64)



Home Page: http://www.islam-guide.com


The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus


This article1 has been taken from the web site of Br. Shabir Ally, Islam Answers Back, with some editing.



John quotes Jesus as saying: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (see 1 Corinthians 11:3).



... Peter must have known that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob never spoke of a Triune God. They always spoke of God as the only God. Here, as in Matthew 12:18, Jesus is the servant of God. Matthew tells us that Jesus was the same servant of God spoken of in Isaiah 42:1.




The Reality of JESUS


1. . God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not



When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all.


2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not



While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19).


3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God


God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17).


He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?".



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glo
12-29-2006, 11:39 AM
I could have sworn that I replied to this post yesterday ... :?
Hmmm, in case I was mistakes, here it is my reply:

Greetings, Muslim Woman

I too worship the One God, the creator of all life, who made his convenants through the prophets Moses and Abraham.

Peace
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-29-2006, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I could have sworn that I replied to this post yesterday ... :?
Hmmm, in case I was mistakes, here it is my reply:

Greetings, Muslim Woman

I too worship the One God, the creator of all life, who made his convenants through the prophets Moses and Abraham.

Peace
hi glo,

but do you truly?

i dont want this to sound insulting but if you believe God to be part of a trinity, that jesus and the holy spirit deserve to be worshipped along with God, as part of God then are you truly worshipping him sincerely and singling him out in worship or are you worshipping others besides God as the muslims would say you are?

the pagans of mekkah said the same thing, that they worshipped Allah but through intermediaries, but you just like them association partners instead of worshipping God alone.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah
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brenton
12-29-2006, 11:52 AM
Dawud_UK, to disagree should mean no offense, I don't think. When people who introduce Muslim & Christian & Jewish religions talk about the same "god" in all, I wonder how a Muslim could agree, since the Christian definition of god is much different.

But to view a trinitarian approach to the Christian god as "intermediaries" is to misunderstand how Christians view God.
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glo
12-29-2006, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hi glo,

but do you truly?

i dont want this to sound insulting but if you believe God to be part of a trinity, that jesus and the holy spirit deserve to be worshipped along with God, as part of God then are you truly worshipping him sincerely and singling him out in worship or are you worshipping others besides God as the muslims would say you are?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah
Yes, I truly believe in One God, Abu Abdullah.

I don't worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with God. They are not intermediaries, they are a part of God ... the One God, whom I love, worship and serve!
Amen. :statisfie

Peace
Reply

duskiness
12-29-2006, 11:57 AM
I hope you both don't mind me jumping into discussion... :rollseyes
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i dont want this to sound insulting but if you believe God to be part of a trinity
we don't believe God is a PART of Trinity. God IS Trinity
that jesus and the holy spirit deserve to be worshipped along with God
along FATHER (I think that was what you meant). Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God, Father is God, God is God.
as part of God then are you truly worshipping him sincerely and singling him out in worship or are you worshipping others besides God as the muslims would say you are?
so you are saying we should worship 1/3 of God? :D ..don't answer - it's just a joke.
Form my point of view we don't differ in number of Gods we worship, we differ when we speak about His nature.
peace be with you Abu Abdullah :)

ps: what have happend to your rose Glo??? :?
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Dawud_uk
12-29-2006, 12:07 PM
the point is from a muslim point of view, and we believe from God's point of view you are associating partners with God, you of-course disagree which is fine we cant force you to believe.

Abu Abdullah
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glo
12-29-2006, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
ps: what have happend to your rose Glo??? :?
The rose was deemed to be an 'unnecessary smilie' ... and was removed from the list together with other unnecessary smilies, duskiness.

So I am protesting quietly! :)

Are you okay? I read one of your posts in another forum ...

Peace
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AvarAllahNoor
12-29-2006, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
Jesus is God, Father is God, God is God.
These born again Christians twist things around.

If you follow the Bible then why can you not read it i wonder!

"Why callest me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17)

". . .for my Father is greater than I. . ." (John 14:28)

"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matthew 26:39)

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)

"Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (Peter 3:22)

But, all this means Jesus is God!
:X
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glo
12-29-2006, 02:04 PM
Greetings, AvarAllahNoor

I feel your frustration ...
It has first been described in scripture:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
[...]
We preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. (1Corinthians 18-19 and 23-25)
There is no obligation for you to either believe or understand the Christian faith.

Peace, brother :)
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Dawud_uk
12-29-2006, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Greetings, AvarAllahNoor

I feel your frustration ...
It has first been described in scripture:

There is no obligation for you to either believe or understand the Christian faith.

Peace, brother :)
to be fair glo he was mostly qouting what christians believe to be the words of jesus, you qouted from paul who most non christians accept twisted christianity out of all recognition of the original message of jesus.
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glo
12-29-2006, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
to be fair glo he was mostly qouting what christians believe to be the words of jesus, you qouted from paul who most non christians accept twisted christianity out of all recognition of the original message of jesus.
You forget to mention that the entire NT is corrupted, Abu Abdullah - thereby deeming this whole conversation pointless ... :rollseyes
Are you saying that some parts of the NT (perhaps the ones who fit Muslims thinking more than others) are less corrupted than others???

I think it is all or nothing.
I believe the entire NT represents the basis for Christian teaching:
(Mind you, this is Paul speaking again ... oops!! :D )
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy3:16-17)
What do you think? Is it all? Or nothing?

Peace, brother.
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Dawud_uk
12-29-2006, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by glo
You forget to mention that the entire NT is corrupted, Abu Abdullah - thereby deeming this whole conversation pointless ... :rollseyes
Are you saying that some parts of the NT (perhaps the ones who fit Muslims thinking more than others) are less corrupted than others???

I think it is all or nothing.
I believe the entire NT represents the basis for Christian teaching:
(Mind you, this is Paul speaking again ... oops!! :D )


What do you think? Is it all? Or nothing?

Peace, brother.
not quite,

i do believe it to be a corrupted compilation of corrupted documents but i am only pointed out to you as are others that JC (pbuh) according to you and your religion didnt believe in the things you and others believe in.

it would like qouting darwin or mao to show a darwinist or maoist why the theories they follow are false.

i do believe there is general good in the bible but it is mixed in with a lot of falsehood and hence why i dont follow it as a book from God, but dont worry! God would not leave humanity without help and you have the final and last testiment from God - the Quran!

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
12-29-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Greetings, AvarAllahNoor

I feel your frustration ...
It has first been described in scripture:

There is no obligation for you to either believe or understand the Christian faith.

Peace, brother :)
I believe in Jesus Christ. He's one of the greatest Prophets. - But what i don't see is how some Christians percieve Jesus to be God. This alone shows you're not following his message, But you've decided you know best. :)

Sat Shri Akal (God is Truth)
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Muslim Woman
12-29-2006, 04:07 PM
Salaam/peace ;


visit website of our revert bro ( ex-Christian missionary)









"Allah" is the perfect word to describe the "One God" of monotheism.


Is "Allah" only for Islam and Muslims? - [No!]-

[Get the whole story: click here]

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/allah


Shirk in Islam

La ilaha illa llah” [there is non worthy of worship accept Allah ( God )

Your God is surely One

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/article...d_nuradeen.htm

Shirk – Polytheism

The opposite of Tawhid is expressed by the Arabic term Shirk (polytheism), derived from the root Sh-r-k which conveys the notion of “sharing” or “partnerships.”


The word Sharik (plural shurakaa) means “partner” or “associate.” It encompasses far more than the more blatant forms of idolatry and denial of Allah’s Unity.

The term Shirk means associating partners with Allah, and the related term mushrik is applied to someone guilty of such polytheistic association.
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Muslim Woman
12-29-2006, 04:14 PM
Salaam/peace to u Sister & all ;

Originally Posted by glo
Greetings, AvarAllahNoor

I feel your frustration ...
It has first been described in scripture:

There is no obligation for you to either believe or understand the Christian faith.

Peace, brother :)



I read Bible long ago...i remember few verses...writing from memory; so it won't be the same words but meaning is same.


Bible tells u that God is very jealous & He will take revenge if anyone worship any diety besides One God. So, why take risk & associate partner with Him ? I m not asking anyone to accept Islam but pl. don't worship anyone besides God. I read that many Chrisitans don't believe that Jesus (p) is God but they are still religious Christians & holding senior positions in the Church.


So, pl give a serious thought about worshipping 2 other dieties besides One God. Remember ur own holy book that God is very jealous & wont' tolerate any partner.
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duskiness
12-29-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
[B]These born again Christians twist things around.
by "these" you me me?:?
I'm not a "born again" (in the meaning you give to this words...) Christian. (btw: why do you think so?).
If that interests you I have Catholic background.
as for "twisting" things - I just wrote about basic dogma of Christianity.

...having a second thought. Bible is corrupted -> Christianity is illogical -> twisted dogmas -> Christians twist things around.
It makes sense now...:rollseyes
But what i don't see is how some [emphasis mine]Christians percieve Jesus to be God.
Most would be more accurate. (nontrinitarian Christians - about 28800000. that's around 2.7%. source: adherents.com and my calculator)
Are 97% "some"?
I read that many Chrisitans don't believe that Jesus (p) is God but they are still religious Christians & holding senior positions in the Church.
that would be quite hard. As hard as to be an imam and not believe in Quran to be word of God.
So, why take risk & associate partner with Him ?
but from our point of view we worship ONLY God!
"you shall have no other gods before me", isn't it the first commandment?
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brenton
12-30-2006, 12:08 AM
I'm abit surprised that Muslims would not understand more how Christians feel when others misunderstand our faith. Many Canadians, and by a Brit survey, Brits (and I assume Americans too) misunderstand Islam.

It is probably worth taking the time to understand the Christian doctrine of God. The earliest Christian writings are by Paul, and he was a worshipper of Jesus, and called Jesus "Lord," quoting verses from the Old Testament where "Lord" was the holy name for God.

You can disagree with the trinity. You can say, "I get what Christians are saying, and it is still idolatry." But please don't misrepresent it. Part of respect is seeking to understand, even if we think it is wrong, idiotic, or flawed.
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Muslim Woman
12-30-2006, 12:21 AM
Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by duskiness
......
that would be quite hard. As hard as to be an imam and not believe in Quran to be word of God.



---if anybody does not believe that Quran is from God , then s/he can't remain even as an ordinary Muslim , no question of become an Imam.

In a survey , it was revealed most Anglican Bishops don't believe that Jesus (p) is God. To my knowledge , few other sects of Chrisitans belief also don't worship Jesus (p) as God.



but from our point of view we worship ONLY God!
"you shall have no other gods before me", isn't it the first commandment?

Of Course , If u take more deities besides One God , u r disobeying ur holy book , u r making God angry as described in ur own holy Book. God has no partner . If u listen to debate/lecture of late Ahmed Deedat or Dr. Zakir Naik , u will understand that Revised Bible edited many verses that is very popular among Christians ...say about baptism ...water , fire etc . Free online videos are available .......pl. see. I saw Deedats' & Zakir's debate.
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Muslim Woman
12-30-2006, 12:23 AM
Salaam/peace;
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I believe in Jesus Christ. He's one of the greatest Prophets. -

Sat Shri Akal (God is Truth)
does ur holy book teaches so or it's ur personal belief ?
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AvarAllahNoor
12-30-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;

does ur holy book teaches so or it's ur personal belief ?
Yes the Scriptures refer to Jesus and Moses.
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AvarAllahNoor
12-30-2006, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by duskiness
by "these" you me me?:?
I'm not a "born again" (in the meaning you give to this words...) Christian. (btw: why do you think so?).
If that interests you I have Catholic background.
as for "twisting" things - I just wrote about basic dogma of Christianity.
No not you. I mention Born Again Christians because they are the only denomination that see Jesus to be God. I know Christians from my local Church they do not say Jesus is God, but the Son.
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duskiness
12-30-2006, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I mention Born Again Christians because they are the only denomination that see Jesus to be God.
What about Easter Orthodox, Catholic Church, Anglican Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Reformed, Baptists, Pentecostals.....? the list is long. They all hold that Jesus was God. Believing that Jesus is God is one of most typical beliefs Christians have. Only a few don't believe it. Many Christians also say that you can't be a Christian without believing it!!
I know Christians from my local Church they do not say Jesus is God, but the Son
Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God. One God. (...that's a bit boring to repeat, but nobody said Trinity is easy :giggling: ). When we say "Father" we mean "God", when we say "Son" - also, when "Holy Spirit" - the same; we are still speaking about God. One God :D

unless your "local Christians" are Jehovah Witnesses...
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AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
What about Easter Orthodox, Catholic Church, Anglican Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Reformed, Baptists, Pentecostals.....? the list is long. They all hold that Jesus was God. Believing that Jesus is God is one of most typical beliefs Christians have. Only a few don't believe it. Many Christians also say that you can't be a Christian without believing it!!
Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God. One God. (...that's a bit boring to repeat, but nobody said Trinity is easy :giggling: ). When we say "Father" we mean "God", when we say "Son" - also, when "Holy Spirit" - the same; we are still speaking about God. One God :D

unless your "local Christians" are Jehovah Witnesses...
I know they are not Jehovah Witnesses. All though i do like a good old banter wit them when they come knocking. - As for the above mentioned. I don't know. It's just my local church with a vicar. Have no idea what denomination they fall under. I just see them as Christians.
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Muslim Woman
01-04-2007, 01:36 AM
Salaam/peace;


Yes the Scriptures refer to Jesus and Moses.
---- pl. explain more. If possible , share the verses or give link . Thanks
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Muslim Woman
02-15-2007, 04:18 PM
Salaam/peace;



CONCEPT OF GOD IN MAJOR RELIGIONS

---Dr. Zakir Naik


(Back Ground Azaan, By Brother Yusuf Islam)


.........It reminds me of an incident where Maulana Rahmatullah Karanvi - he was having a discussion with a Christian missionary, who was trying to prove to Maulana Shahib that ‘Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God Almighty, and that Jesus (peace be upon him) died for the sins of human beings’.







After a great deal of time, without any results, the discussion was continued. Later on, the servant of Maulana Shahib, he comes and whispers something in the Maulana’s ears.

The Maulana’s face becomes sad - he starts crying.




The Christian missionary asks, ‘Maulana Shahib, ‘what is the bad news?’.


The Maulana Shahib said in a very sad tone, ‘My servant, he just gave me information, - he brought news, that Arch Angel Gabriel - he died’.


The Christian missionary began to laugh loudly.



‘Maulana Shahib, you being such an intelligent person, how can you believe in such absurd things – Can Angels die?’


The Maulana Shahib said, ‘When God can die, why can’t Angels die?’ And the Christian missionary, without speaking a single word, he left – It is a battle of wits.


Lets discuss – ‘The Concept of Almighty God in Islam’.



The best answer that any one can give you, regarding ‘the Concept of Almighty God in Islam’, is quote to you the Surah of the Holy Qur’an,

Surah Ikhlas, Ch.No. 112, V.No. 1 to 4, which says… (Arabic)…. ‘Say He is Allah, One and only’. (Arabic)…


‘Allah the Absolute and Eternal’. ‘As-Samad’ is a bit difficult to translate - It means, that ‘He exists’, and ‘He has created things, when nothing existed’.



Everything and every person is dependent on Him, but he is not dependent on any person, or anything.


‘As Samad’ – ‘The Absolute and Eternal’ (Arabic….) ‘He begets not, nor is He begotten’,(Arabic….) ‘There is nothing like Him’.


This is a four line definition of Allah Subhana Wa Talaah, which is the touch stone of Theology - Surah Iklas, is the touch stone of Theology.



‘Theo’ in greek means God – ‘Logy’ mean study. ‘Theology’ means study of God.


Surah Ikhlas is the touchstone of Theology.


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Pygoscelis
02-15-2007, 07:39 PM
The best God is the Sun.

It gives me life.
My world revolves around it, literally.
Most important, it clearly exists, for all to behold.

Seriously though, if you trace the roots of most religions back you will find that most of them are derived from sun worship and seasons. Christianity and Judaism both came out of the region of ancient Egypt and are heavily influenced by the zodiac.
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Trumble
02-15-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I don't worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with God. They are not intermediaries, they are a part of God
Just to point out, as a 'neutral' on this one, that I find the concept of the Trinity reasonable (from a theistic standpoint), easy to understand and happily monotheistic. I really don't understand why muslims have such trouble with it, even if, obviously, they can't agree with it. Three aspects of the same, one, thing - what's the problem?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-15-2007, 07:51 PM
Teen Dayv Ayk Sang Laa-ay.

Forsake the trinity, and attach yourself to the One God. (Bhagat Kabir)
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-15-2007, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Yes, I truly believe in One God, Abu Abdullah.

I don't worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit along with God. They are not intermediaries, they are a part of God ... the One God, whom I love, worship and serve!
Amen. :statisfie

Peace
umm... im sorry if im misunderstanding but im guessing you either think the allmighty who created the universe in such perfection and holds the heavens and the earths came to earth in a feeble form of a human who ended up dying or you believe that God can seperate himself into three parts and still comes to earth.

im sorry but i see nothing but numerous flaws in this logic, how can this be? please help me understand how you can believe this
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Muslim Woman
02-16-2007, 12:29 AM
Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Trumble
....I find the concept of the Trinity reasonable (from a theistic standpoint), easy to understand and happily monotheistic. ..........what's the problem?
problem is if u write in ur exam script that 3=1 , u will fail in this world ; if u believe in Trinity u will fail in the test of hereafter.

Muslims give much importance on the life hereafter & don't want to fail there , so avoid this concept .

Trinity is called as a mystery. If it's easy to understand , then why it's called as mystery ?:rolleyes: If it's a mystery , then it can not be understand easily .:p

Do u understand Hindu's Trinity ? One diety was running to save his own life from a man who wanted to kill him , another diety came to rescue him & disguised himself as a beautiful woman & after a trick could save his life. :uuh:

Do u understand how a diety can be All powerful but unable to save his own life ? :playing:


I don't understand this kind of story & miserably failed to swallow Trinity . BTW , do Buddhist believe in God Almighty ? Is Lord Buddha God ?





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Pygoscelis
02-16-2007, 08:23 AM
The trinity is nowhere near simple. It confuddles the entire idea of the Jesus story.

Without the trinity, the Jesus story is at least coherent (and copied from earlier mythological stories). It has the Son of the God loving the mortals and sacrificing himself to convince his father to forgive the mortals for their sins. That is a coherent story.

Add the trinity, and now you've got God sacrificing himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind. It makes absolutely no sense at all. Jesus' sacrifice becomes a mere ritual, and a violent one at that. One has to wonder why God couldn't simply have shouted from the heavens "I forgive, now be good you silly humans!" Apparently God likes the theatrics and having people die.
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