Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

[waldolicous]

I hear from one that they do worship the same God, but simply believe God had said different things. I hear from another that since one religion worships Jesus, and another worships Allah, they do not.

What is your opinion?

[tresbien]

Praise be to Allaah.

“And whomsoever Allaah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam…” [al-An’aam 6:125]

With regard to this important question – who do the Muslims worship? – the answer is to be found in the Holy Qur’aan, which is the Scripture of Islam, and in the words of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who received Revelation from his Lord.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“In the name of Allaah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All praises and thanks be to Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists), the Most Beneficient, the Most Merciful, the Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). You (Alone) we worship, and You (alone) we ask for help (for each and every thing).” [al-Faatihah 1:1-5]

“O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allaah), Who has created you and those before you so that you may become al-muttaqoon (the pious).” [al-Baqarah 2:21]

“Such is Allaah, your Lord! None has the right to be worshipped but He, the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakeel (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian) over all things.”[al-An’aam 6:102]

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him, and that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.” [al-Isra’ 17:23]

Muslim worship Allaah [the One True God] whom all the Prophets worshipped. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya’qoob [Jacob]? When he said unto his sons, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They said, ‘We shall worship your God, the God of your fathers, Ibraaheem [Abraham], Ismaa’eel [Ishmael] and Is-haaq [Isaac], One God, and to Him we submit (in Islam).” [al-Baqarah 2:133]

The Muslims worship Allaah and call others who follow different religions to worship Allaah Alone, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say [O Muhammad]: ‘O People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians]: come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah, and we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say, ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims.’” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:64]

It is Allaah Alone Whom Nooh [Noah] (peace be upon him) called his people to worship, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Indeed, We sent Nooh [Noah] to his people and he said: ‘O my people! Worship Allaah! You have no other god but Him. Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day!.’” [al-A’raaf 7:59]

It is Allaah Alone whom the Messiah [Jesus] (peace be upon him) called people to worship, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Surely they have disbelieved who say: ‘Allaah is the Messiah [Jesus] son of Maryam [Mary].’ But the Messiah said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.” [al-Maa’idah 5:73]

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when Allaah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): ‘O ‘Eesa [Jesus], son of Maryam [Mary]! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allaah?’ He will say: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours. You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allaah) did command me to say: “Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.” And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.’”[al-Maa’idah 5:116-117]

When Allaah spoke to His Prophet Moosa [Moses] (peace be upon him), He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, I am Allaah! None has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me, and perform al-Salaah [prayer] for My Remembrance.”

[Ta-Ha 20:14]

Allaah commanded His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as follows (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say [O Muhammad]: ‘O mankind! If you are in doubt as to my religion (Islam), then (know that) I will never worship those whom you worship, besides Allaah. But I worship Allaah Who causes you to die, I am commanded to be one of the believers.” [Yoonus 10:104]

It is Him Alone, with no partner or associate, Whom the angels worship and do not worship anyone or anything besides Him, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“To Him belongs whosoever is in the heavens and on earth. And those who are near Him (i.e., the angels) are not too proud to worship Him, nor are they weary (of His worship).”[al-Anbiya’ 21:19]

Everything that is worshipped instead of Allaah can neither bring benefit nor cause harm, it can neither create nor provide. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muhammad, to mankind); ‘How do you worship besides Allaah something which has no power either to harm or to benefit you? But it is Allaah Who is the All-Hearer, All-Knower.’” [al-Maa’idah 5:76]

“You worship besides Allaah only idols, and you only invent falsehood. Verily, those whom you worship besides Allaah have no power to give you provision, so seek your provision from Allaah (Alone), and worship Him (Alone), and be grateful to Him. To Him (Alone) you will be brought back.” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:17]

Having explained this, we must complete the topic by asking: why should we worship Allaah Alone with no partner or associate? The answer is as follows:

Firstly: because there is nothing and nobody else in the universe that deserves to be worshipped, for Allaah is the Creator and Sustainer, Who has created the universe out of nothing and has bestowed so many blessings upon us. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“So glorify Allaah, when you come up to the evening [i.e., offer the Maghrib (sunset) and ‘Isha’ (night) prayers], and when you enter the morning [I.e., offer the Fajr (morning) prayers].

And His is all the praise and thanks in the heavens and the earth, and (glorify Him) in the afternoon [i.e., offer ‘Asr (mid-afternoon) prayer] and when you come up to the time when the day begins to decline [i.e., offer the Zuhr (mid-day) prayer].

He brings out the living from the dead, and brings out the dead from the living. And He revives the earth after its death, and thus shall you be brought out (resurrected).

And among His Signs is this, that He created you (Adam) from dust, and then [Hawwa (Eve) from Adam’s rib, then his offspring from the semen, and], - behold you are human beings scattered!

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.

And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.

And among His Signs is the sleep that you take by night and by day, and your seeking of His Bounty. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who listen.

And among His Signs is that He shows you the lightning, by way of fear and hope, and He sends down water (rain) from the sky, and therewith revives the earth after its death. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who understand.

And among His Signs is that the heaven and the earth stand by His Command, then afterwards when He will call you by single call, behold, you will come out from the earth (ie.e, from your graves, for reckoning and recompense).

To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient to Him.

And He it is Who originates the creation, then will repeat it (after it has perished), and this is easier for Him. His is the highest description (i.e., none has the right to be worshipped but He, and there is nothing comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.” [al-Room 30: 17-27]

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any god with Allaah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!

Is not he (better than you gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water). Is there any god with Allaah? Nay, but most of them know not.

Is not He (better than your gods) Who responds to the distressed one, when He calls Him, and Who removes the evil, generations after generations. Is there any god with Allaah? Little is it that you remember!

Is not He (better than your gods) Who guides you in the darkness of the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His mercy (rain)? Is there any god with Allaah? High Exalted be Allaah above all that they associate as partners (to Him)!

Is not He (better than your so-called gods) Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any god with Allaah? Say: ‘bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful’

Say: ‘None on the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except Allaah, nor can they perceive when they shall be resurrected.’”

[al-Naml 27:60-65]

So is there anyone or anything besides Allaah that deserves to be worshipped?

Secondly: Allaah did not create us except to worship Him, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).”[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Thirdly: No one will be saved on the Day of Resurrection except those who used to worship Allaah truly and sincerely. After death Allaah will resurrect His slaves and call them to account, rewarding or punishing them according to their deeds. No one will be saved on that day except for those who used to worship Allaah Alone. The rest will be gathered into a Hell, a terrible fate! The Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), was asked by his Companions: “Will we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” He told them:

“Do you doubt that you can see the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?” We [his Companions] said, “No.” He said, “Then you should not doubt that you will see your Lord on that Day, you will see Him as you see them (the sun and moon).” Then he said, “A caller will call out, ‘Let every people go to that which they used to worship.’ So the worshippers of the cross will go with their cross, the worshippers of idols will go with their idols and the worshippers of every god will go with their gods, until there will be left those who used to worship Allaah, whether they were righteous or otherwise, and a few of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians]. Then Hell will be brought and shown to them as if it is a mirage. It will be said to the Jews, ‘What did you used to worship?’ They will say, ‘We used to worship ‘Uzayr, the son of God.’ It will be said, ‘You have lied. Allaah does not have a wife or son. What do you want?’ They will say, ‘We want something to drink.’ It will be said to them, ‘Drink!’ and they will fall into Hell. Then it will be said to the Christians, ‘What did you used to worship?’ They will say, ‘We used to worship the Messiah, the son of God.’ It will be said, ‘You have lied. Allaah does not have a wife or son. What do you want?’ They will say, ‘We want something to drink.’ It will be said to them, ‘Drink!’ and they will fall into Hell. Then there will be left those who used to worship Allaah, whether they were righteous or otherwise. It will be said to them, ‘What are you waiting for? All the people have gone.’ They will say, ‘We have separated from them and we need Him more today. We heard a caller saying that every people should follow that which they used to worship, so we are waiting for our Lord.’ He will say, ‘Al-Jabbaar [the Compeller, i.e., Allaah] will come…’ And He will say, ‘I am your Lord.’ They will say, ‘You are our Lord,’ but none will speak to Him except the Prophets… then every believer will prostrate to Him.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, no. 6886). These believers are the people of Paradise on whom shall be no fear neither shall they grieve, and they will dwell therein for ever.

We hope that this matter has now become clear. In conclusion we can say nothing except that which Allaah has said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes stray, then he goes astray to his own loss…” [al-Isra’ 17:15]

Peace be upon him who follows the guidance

[Grace Seeker]

I am sure that I will have people from all three religions disagree with me. But my personal opinion is that all who worship the God of Abraham, whether the person be Jew, Christian, or Muslim, are worshipping the one and the same God.

[waldolicous]

I am sure that I will have people from all three religions disagree with me. But my personal opinion is that all who worship the God of Abraham, whether the person be Jew, Christian, or Muslim, are worshipping the one and the same God.

That is understandable. So based on your personal opinion, do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

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[Malaikah]

The way I see it, Jesus was the prophet of God, and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was also the Prophet of God- the same God. Based on this we worship the same God.

BUT Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and worship him too.

So it would seem that they worship the same God but they worship others along side Him. (Even though they believe in only one God).

[Grace Seeker]

That is understandable. So based on your personal opinion, do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

Yes.

I understand Malaikah's contention that we Christians worship another alongside of God. As I said, I expected people from all three religions to disagree with me. However I understand worshipping Jesus to be worship of the one and the very same God that Abraham worshipped.

[waldolicous]

The way I see it, Jesus was the prophet of God, and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was also the Prophet of God- the same God. Based on this we worship the same God.

BUT Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and worship him too.

So it would seem that they worship the same God but they worship others along side Him. (Even though they believe in only one God).

Christians believe Jesus is not only the son of God, but they also believe that Jesus is God.

[Malaikah]

Yes I understand that waldolicous, which really is just as bad and further highlights the problem that they can not be same God as Muslims if they are worshipping Jesus, because in Islam Jesus is a human, not God (or the Son of God)

[waldolicous]

It is also interesting that in certain beliefs, such as Gnostic Christianity, the worshiped Jesus as being God, but refused to worship the God of Abraham. I wonder if they worship the same God as Christianity.

[Malaikah]

That doesn't make sense at all. Does that mean they reject the Trinity and believe that Jesus is God full stop? No Father and Holy spirit? :?

[waldolicous]

Yes I understand that waldolicous, which really is just as bad and further highlights the problem that they can not be same God as Muslims if they are worshipping Jesus, because in Islam Jesus is a human, not God (or the Son of God)

Thanks for your reply.

It seems that only the trinity is the difficulty, although Christians generally accept Jews as believing in their God, yet they do not believe in the trinity. Of course, there are Christian Unitarians where there is no such barrier.

[Abu Zakariya]

To understand the Muslim point of view of this, one has to understand our concept of Tawhid (monotheism).

For instance, one aspect of tawhid is Tawhid al-Rububiyyah (the Oneness of God in His Lordship). This basically means that God is the one and only Creator, Lord, Controller, Provider etc. of everything. This is one aspect of monotheism which basically every religion accepts. Christians and Jews agree with this.

However, in another aspect of tawhid we disagree, and that is in Tawhid al-Uloohiyyah (the Oneness of God in worship). Islam teaches that every single act of worship is to be directed to God alone, and this includes supplication, fear (in the way you fear your Lord, Controller etc.), love (the type of intense love you only direct to God) etc. So supplication to Jesus (peace be upon him) would be a violation of this aspect of Islamic monotheism.

Therefore, even though we do believe in the same God, from our perspective, others may be directing worship to other than God alone.

My explanation is only scratching the surface, one would need to study this to understand it adequately. Also, there are other differences as well when it comes to the Oneness of God in His Names and Attributes (called Tawhid al-Asmai was-Sifat).

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you waldolicous, And welcome to the forum,

How can Hindu, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs claim an exclusive path to God?

Regardless as to what any of us might believe, the same God hears all our prayers. The same God created each and everyone of us, we are all related to each other as a part of God’s wonderful creation.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Malaikah]

Regardless as to what any of us might believe, the same God hears all our prayers. The same God created each and everyone of us, we are all related to each other as a part of God’s wonderful creation.

Of course the same God hears all our prayers, God hears everything! However, just because He hears it, does not mean it was directed to Him.

According to Muslim belief, on the Day of Judgement, that same God will tell everyone who directed their prayer towards any one other than Him to claim their reward from who ever they worshipped. If you worship God, hoping that God will reward you, then you have the right to that reward. If you worshipped an idol instead of God, hoping for reward from the idol, then go to the idol for your reward. It, of course, can not reward you. Then the idol that was worshipped will be thrown in to hell, and those who worshipped it will follow it. :X

May Allah protect us from that.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Malaikah;

Thank you for your explanation how God answers our prayers and it did make a lot of sense. I have this feeling that the idols we worship that take us away from God are lust, power and wealth. These idols can seem more important than God in this life, but I sense that they will not be a comfort to us in any life after death with God.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

[Abu Zakariya]

Greetings and peace be with you Malaikah;

Thank you for your explanation how God answers our prayers and it did make a lot of sense. I have this feeling that the idols we worship that take us away from God are lust, power and wealth. These idols can seem more important than God in this life, but I sense that they will not be a comfort to us in any life after death with God.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

Your post reminded me of this Ayah from the Qur'an:

Have you seen him who takes his own lust (vain desires) as his ilâh (god), and Allâh knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and put a cover on his sight. Who then will guide him after Allâh? Will you not then remember? (Al-Jathiyah 45:23)

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^Nice reminder.:thumbs_up

Thank you for your explanation how God answers our prayers and it did make a lot of sense. I have this feeling that the idols we worship that take us away from God are lust, power and wealth. These idols can seem more important than God in this life, but I sense that they will not be a comfort to us in any life after death with God.

Yes, definitely. However, it also, more specifically, included literal idols, such as people who worshipped the sun and moon, statues etc... anything that people worship other than God. Even Jesus (as)... Not that he will be thrown in to the fire... rather the cross will be.

[Eric H]

Blessings and peace Malaikah;

I have family and friends of other faiths to mine and others who have no faith at all. I pray that a loving and merciful God will grant us all salvation despite our many differences.:)

In the spirit of praying for peace.

Take care

Eric

[tresbien]

[Praise be to Allaah.

The entire universe, in the way it is created and the way it is controlled, bears witness to the oneness of Allaah:

“Surely, His is the creation and commandment. Blessed is Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)!

[al-A’raaf 7:54 – interpretation of the meaning]

The creation of the heavens and the earth, the alternation of night and day, the different kinds of inanimate objects, plants and fruits, the creation of humans and animals… all of that indicates that the Almighty Creator is One with no partner or associate:

“That is Allaah, your Lord, the Creator of all things, Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). How then are you turning away (from Allaah, by worshipping others instead of Him)?[Ghaafir 40:62 – interpretation of the meaning]
The variety and greatness of these created things, the perfect way in which they are formed, the way in which they are maintained and controlled, all indicate that the Creator is One and that He does as He wills and rules and decides as He wants:

“Allaah is the Creator of all things, and He is the Wakeel (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian) over all things” [al-Zumar 39:62 – interpretation of the meaning]

All of the above indicate that this universe has a Creator, that this dominion has a Sovereign, that behind these forms is One Who gives them shape:

“He is Allaah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names”

[al-Hashr 59:24 – interpretation of the meaning]

The soundness of the heavens and the earth, the order of the universe, the harmony among created things, all indicate that the Creator is One, with no partner or associate:
“Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) aalihah (gods) besides Allaah, then verily, both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allaah, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above all that (evil) they associate with Him!”[al-Anbiya’ 21:22 – interpretation of the meaning]

These great created things either created themselves – which is impossible – or man created himself then created them – which is also impossible:

“Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief”[al-Toor 52:35-36 – interpretation of the meaning]

Reason, Revelation and the original state of man (fitrah) all indicate that this universe has One Who brought into being, that these created things have a Creator Who is Ever-Living and Eternal, All-Knowing and All-Aware, Powerful and Almighty, Kind and Most Merciful. He has the Most Beautiful Names and Sublime Attributes and He knows all things. Nothing is beyond His control, and there is nothing like unto Him:

“And your Ilaah (God) is One Ilaah (God — Allaah), Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He), the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

[al-Baqarah 2:163 – interpretation of the meaning] The existence of Allaah is something that is there is no excuse for not knowing. It is the matter of common sense:

“Their Messengers said: What! Can there be a doubt about Allaah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth?”

[Ibraaheem 14:10 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah has created people with the natural instinct (fitrah) to affirm His Lordship and Oneness, but the shayaateen (devils) came to the sons of Adam and caused them to deviate from their religion. According to a hadeeth qudsi, “I created all My slaves as haneefs (monotheists), but the shayaateen (devils) came to them and made them deviate from their religion, and they forbade them that which I had permitted to them.” (Narrated by Muslim, no. 2865)

Among them are those who deny the existence of Allaah, and those who worship the Shaytaan, and those who worship man. And there are those who worship the dinar [money], or fire, or genital organs, or animals. And there are some who associate in worship with Him a stone from the earth or a star in the sky.

These things which are worshipped instead of Allaah, cannot create or provide; they cannot hear or see, or bring benefits or cause harm. So how can they worship them instead of Allaah?

“Are many different lords (gods) better or Allaah, the One, the Irresistible?”[Yoosuf 12:39 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah has condemned those who worship these idols which cannot hear, see or think:

“Verily, those whom you call upon besides Allaah are slaves like you. So call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful.

Have they feet wherewith they walk? Or have they hands wherewith they hold? Or have they eyes wherewith they see? Or have they ears wherewith they hear?”

[al-A’raaf 7:194-195 – interpretation of the meaning]

“Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘How do you worship besides Allaah something which has no power either to harm or benefit you? But it is Allaah Who is the All‑Hearer, All‑Knower”

[al-Maa'idah 5:76 – interpretation of the meaning]

How ignorant man is of his Lord Who created him and provides for him. How he rejects Him and forgets Him, and worships others instead of Him:

“Verily, it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind”

[al-Hajj 22:46 – interpretation of the meaning]

Glorified be Allaah far above that which they associate with Him. Praise be to Allaah the Lord of the Worlds:

“Say (O Muhammad): Praise and thanks be to Allaah, and peace be on His slaves whom He has chosen (for His Message)! Is Allaah better, or (all) that you ascribe as partners (to Him)?” (Of course, Allaah is Better).

Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilaah (god) with Allaah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!

Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water)? Is there any ilaah (god) with Allaah? Nay, but most of them know not!

Is not He (better than your gods) Who responds to the distressed one, when he calls on Him, and Who removes the evil, and makes you inheritors of the earth, generations after generations? Is there any ilaah (god) with Allaah? Little is that you remember!

Is not He (better than your gods) Who guides you in the darkness of the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain)? Is there any ilaah (god) with Allaah? High Exalted be Allaah above all that they associate as partners (to Him)!

Is not He (better than your so‑called gods) Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any ilaah (god) with Allaah? Say: ‘Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful’”

[Jayda]

I hear from one that they do worship the same God, but simply believe God had said different things. I hear from another that since one religion worships Jesus, and another worships Allah, they do not.

What is your opinion?

hola waldolicous,

i believe that muslims adore the same God in that they know He is there and want to please but... but they reject His unity, Covenant and Church which is blasphemy... so i do not believe they worship Him and i am not sure if it can be said they truly believe in Him...

Dios te bendiga

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I'd just like to mention these verses from the Qur'an, Allaah Almighty says:

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibrahim (Abraham), while the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?

Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.


Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (the polytheists)

Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allah is the Wali (Protector and Helper) of the believers.


[Qur'an Aal Imraan (3: 65-68)]

[Jayda]

hola Fi_Sabilillah,

so this means muslims do not consider christians and jews followers of abraham i think? does that by extension mean muslims do not believe we follow the same God?

Dios te bendiga

[- Qatada -]

We believe that the jews and christians are not following the way of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) because he was purely monotheistic. He never claimed that God has a son, or any relative whatsoever. Nor did he claim to be a jew. Abraham (peace be upon him) was a muslim, which comes from the root word islaam which means submission towards the Creator. That was the way of Abraham (peace be upon him) and we follow his way.


Peace.

[Pygoscelis]

All three religions come from the same lineage.

It always strikes me as odd that they fight so much amongst themselves than against faiths that are truly different, like buddhism, taoism, shinto, hinduism etc.

[Grace Seeker]

We believe that the jews and christians are not following the way of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) because he was purely monotheistic. He never claimed that God has a son, or any relative whatsoever. Nor did he claim to be a jew. Abraham (peace be upon him) was a muslim, which comes from the root word islaam which means submission towards the Creator. That was the way of Abraham (peace be upon him) and we follow his way.


Peace.

Just a point of information. Not all of the 12 Tribes of Israel (the descendants of Ibrahim through first Isaac, and then his son Jacob) were Jews. Sloppy language todays mislead many to believe that. And because Jews today trace their lineage back to Abraham, at least spiritually even if converts cannot do it physically, and the Bar and Bat Mitzvahs declare them to be "sons" and "daughters" of Abraham, it does not mean that they are declaring Abraham to be Jewish. (I don't know, maybe some are in their own minds.) The origin of the word Jew comes from the tribe of Judah. The Jews are those who come out of Judah and occupied the land that was the remaining kingdom of Judah after the divided kingdom. Also living in this Kingdom was the tribe of Benjamin and the Levites attached to the temple. Collectively these are who are Jews today.

( I ask our Jewish friends to correct me if I have mis-spoken.)

[snakelegs]

yes, they both worship the same god, but christians are a little fuzzy around the edges.

[Umar001]

I believe both Muslims and Christians recognise the same God, i.e. The God of Abraham, but they rely on different accounts which describe him, the Christians in the Bible and their personal Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, whilst Muslims rely on the Qu'ran, claiming that the Bible is not a reliable source nor a revelant one.

Thus because of this fundamental difference which leads to different understanding and types of worship, you can conclude that Christians view and worship a different God than Muslims. Whilst they both claim to follow the God of Abraham, they then both disagree on who the God of Abraham is, is He a Three in One God which has manifested himself on earth among men as a person named Jesus, or is He God indivisible, who did neither come as man nor a part of His own Creation.

The study of each positions and their reasons why they hold the view is crucial in oder to arrive on the straight path.

[Grace Seeker]

Eesa, nicely worded. Even if we may up with different conclusions regarding what is and isn't the truth, I believe you have framed the issue very well.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all,

The same God created each and everyone of us but,

It seems he has chosen whom he wills in very different ways some Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc. but why?

Did God create us with so many differences that he intended us to try and compete against each other, convert each other, and wage war against each other?

Because this is what the majority of the human race seems to do with so many differences, we seem so stupid, why can’t we get on with people who are different?

Could God’s plan be that we should all get along with each other in peace, helping each other, building communities and celebrating our differences? Or does he really want each faith group to try and convert the others, which often leads to conflict?

In the spirit of searching.

Eric

[north_malaysian]

For outsiders (non Muslim, non Jewish, non Christian, non Baha'is)

It seems that all Muslims, Jews, Christians and Baha'is worship the same Abrahamic God.

I dont know about Christians, Jews and Baha'is.

But for us, Muslims and Jews worship the same God, but God doesnt accept the Jews religious deeds as they refused to recognise Muhammad. In Al Qur'an the Jews are referred as "Al Magdhoub" (Angered by God).

And it's totally hard for us to accept Christians to worship the same God, as Jesus is included as part of God. In the Qur'an they're referred as "Adh-Dhaaliin" (People who have gone astray)

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

Difference between Muslims & Chrsitians:

God is only One . Chrsitians are worshipping 2 more dieties besides One God....that's the differences.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

All three religions come from the same lineage.

It always strikes me as odd that they fight so much amongst themselves than against faiths that are truly different, like buddhism, taoism, shinto, hinduism etc

I can fully relate to what you are saying, I left the Catholic Church as a teenager mainly because I could not understand the churches confrontational stance against people of other faiths. The church has changed a lot in the last fifty years, but I feel there is still much bridge building to be done.

In the spirit of seeking peace

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al Habeshi;

I believe both Muslims and Christians recognise the same God,

The greater question might be, what does the same God think about each of us?

We have to be as truthful as possible when answering this question because our answers are based on beliefs and not facts. The same God created each and every one of us despite all our differences in belief. But can anyone truthfully claim to know the mind of God and his ultimate purpose for mankind in all its diversity?

In the spirit of seeking peace on Earth

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

Eric, I think I want to rephrase your question.

If Muslims, Christians, and Jews each themselves claim to be worshipping the same God who Abraham worshipped who all claim to be the one and only true God, but they do not recognize each other's worship to in fact be worship of the one same God, what does God recognize?

[Jayda]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;



I can fully relate to what you are saying, I left the Catholic Church as a teenager mainly because I could not understand the churches confrontational stance against people of other faiths. The church has changed a lot in the last fifty years, but I feel there is still much bridge building to be done.

In the spirit of seeking peace

Eric

hola Eric H,

i hope i am not prying but have you come back to the Catholic Church since you were a teenager?

muchos gracias
Dios te bendiga

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Grace Seeker;

what does God recognize

I think the question goes beyond what God recognises, how does God want us to treat the people who believe differently from ourselves?

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[naz87]

there is no trinity in Allah which consists of the father, son, and holy spirit so no we don't worship the same god as christians.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you naz87;

so no we don't worship the same god as christians

History keeps showing that people will kill because they believe the other person has false beliefs. I believe that we still have to search for a greater meaning of one God.

God has to be greater than the sum of all the religions in the world put together. One thing is certain that the same God who created you a Muslim also created me a Christian. We both worship God the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

Why would the same God give us religions that seem to compete against each other, and seem to be in conflict with each other? Is all this conflict what God intended to happen?

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda;

i hope i am not prying but have you come back to the Catholic Church since you were a teenager?

I came back to the church when I was around fifty searching for just one thing, the greatest meaning of one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen. I believe that the answer lies within your avatar, but I wonder if you have challenged the power of the greatest commandments to an ultimate truth?

Take care

Eric

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ;

Eric : how does God want us to treat the people who believe differently from ourselves?



Surah 29. The Spider


And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say,

"We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." (29:46)



Surah 60. She That Is To Be Examined, Examining Her





Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. (60:8)


Surah 6. Cattle, Livestock

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings.


In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.(6:108)

[pntman]

Hi Everyone,

I just had a wonderful time reading through all your posts about this topic. I will tell you that I am a christian and consider Jesus Christ as savior and Lord of my life.
As I have studied the claims of Christ about himself I was surely faced with a choice. Either He is a madman or he is God in the flesh. If you have read the Bible in its entirety I believe anyone who is truely honest with him/herself must come to that conclusion.
I believe he is who he claims to be. I beleive he is alive. And it is by God's grace that I know this.

Ephesians 2.8-10 says

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Bless You

[Grace Seeker]

Welcome pntman. It's nice to meet another Christian here on LI. You'll find that there are several of us. I appreciate your witness on behalf of Christ.

Now reflecting on the topic of this thread, Do you think that Christians and Muslims worship the same God or different ones?

Having read the thread, you know that we've had opinions going both ways from both Christians and Muslims alike. Perhaps you could also share with us the reasons behind your point of view as well.

[Keltoi]

While it is understandable that many Christians and Muslims like to "claim" God as their own, that somehow seems exceedingly arrogant to me. God created us all, and I believe He has no greater desire than to reward us all with salvation and eternal life.

I'm going to take the humble approach and suggest that all faiths worship God in the way they believe is correct. It will be up to God to decide our individual fates. So in that context, our opinions mean nothing.

[pntman]

Hi again,

I agree with keltoi that our opinions are meaningless. The only opinion that matters is God's opinion.

So with that in mind I must say that the historic Christian faith is a faith in evidence.

Jesus was definitely a man Christians and Muslims agree. He lived on the earth was killed by men and was ressurected back to life.

It is through his ressurection that gives hope to all mankind.

What hope is there in life and death? None all who have lived have had life and death.

There is however hope in ressurection.

Again I say who is alive and who is dead?

[Talha777]

Jesus was never resurrected since he never died in the first place.

[pntman]

Hi Grace Seeker,

Thanks for the pm. I am so new it wont let me pm you back.

You are right about that, i'm sorry about that.

I should have simply said that

Jesus answered "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

I hope that is a little clearer.

pntman

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

......claims of Christ about himself ....... Either He is a madman or he is God in the flesh.

what about a 3rd choice ??? He was a blessed Prophet (pbuh) of God Almighty ?

:D

[Jayda]

hola,

gracias, this is an interesting question. assuming we are permitted to speak freely on the subject: i think muslims believe in the God of Abraham... but they do not have a full understanding of Him or what He requires, given the significant problems that arise from their faith in islam and mohamed consequently i do not think they worship Him. they honor things that are true about Him but have a limited understanding, and i think that while God accepts love like love He does not accept that as true worship.

this is covered in our catechism i think under 841 and explained very well with this article, in case anyone is interested in a better understanding of Catholic teachings in this regard.

que Dios te bendiga

[Keltoi]

hola,

gracias, this is an interesting question. assuming we are permitted to speak freely on the subject: i think muslims believe in the God of Abraham... but they do not have a full understanding of Him or what He requires, given the significant problems that arise from their faith in islam and mohamed consequently i do not think they worship Him. they honor things that are true about Him but have a limited understanding, and i think that while God accepts love like love He does not accept that as true worship.

this is covered in our catechism i think under 841 and explained very well with this article, in case anyone is interested in a better understanding of Catholic teachings in this regard.

que Dios te bendiga

From what I gathered from the article, Muslims are recognized as believing in the same Creator, but are not promised salvation as a result. Which is what I believe as a non-Catholic as well. Without Christ there can be no salvation. However, we are all in the hands of God.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

i think muslims believe in the God of Abraham... but they do not have a full understanding of Him or what He requires,

all major holy books tells us to worship God alone & Muslims do exactly the same :smile: ...worshipping God without any partnership / committing shirk / blashphemy.

i think ......He does not accept that as true worship.

:rolleyes: God does not accept worship without partnership ....how is that ?

Read ur holy book again & u will find out that God is very jealous & won't tolerate any one with Him

[Jayda]

Salaam/peace;




all major holy books tells us to worship God alone & Muslims do exactly the same :smile: ...worshipping God without any partnership / committing shirk / blashphemy.




:rolleyes: God does not accept worship without partnership ....how is that ?

Read ur holy book again & u will find out that God is very jealous & won't tolerate any one with Him

hola,

that is what islam says, christianity and the bible teach that God is a Trinity and there is no salvation outside of Christ and His Church. i'm only commenting on the issue at hand, since it was asked... a debate about the Trinity, Bible and Church with non believers would be fruitless and off topic...

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

From what I gathered from the article, Muslims are recognized as believing in the same Creator, but are not promised salvation as a result. Which is what I believe as a non-Catholic as well. Without Christ there can be no salvation. However, we are all in the hands of God.

hola Keltoi,

that is correct... we believe that they believe in the same God but do not know Him fully (denial of the Trinity is such an example) and are outside of salvation (their sins are upon them) for not holding the New Covenant in Christ.

que Dios te bendiga

[Whatsthepoint]

hola Keltoi,

that is correct... we believe that they believe in the same God but do not know Him fully (denial of the Trinity is such an example) and are outside of salvation (their sins are upon them) for not holding the New Covenant in Christ.

que Dios te bendiga

How you blame them for denying something you yourself admit is inconceivable?:ooh:

[Omari]

My dear Muslim and non muslim brothers and sisters, asalamualaukum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu. :peace:

I am posting to reply to the question Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

__________________________________________________ ___________
Before I start I would like to note that when discussing religion and facts the words, In my opinion, or I think, should not be used, as this weakens the statement or counterstatement.

LA ILAHA ILLALAHU MUHAMADUR RASULULAH.

There is NO god but ALLAH, and muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

This kalima must be accepted by every person that calls themself a muslim. ANYONE who goes against it, or has doubts is NOT a muslim.
by accepting this kalima a muslim agrees that there is only ONE god.

The christians belive in God, the same god that muslims believe. HOWEVER muslims do not assign ANY partners to Allah, He has no partners, he has no father, son, mother, daughter, he is ONE and ONLY.

Jesus christ, which the christians believe to be god (or son of god) was a Prophet sent by Allah.

The christian's have evidence to prove their point, but the evidence is misunderstood by them.
they say:

Since god and god only is the master of life and death.
jesus christ brought the dead to life.
Therefore jesus christ is God.

Jesus christ cured those who were blind and once again gave them the ability to see.

these two points are the two major points that are currently being asked from the islamic scholars.

__________________________________________________ ____________

God is the master of life and death,
Muslims belive that prophets performed MIRACLES with the power of God.
We belive that jesus DID bring the dead to life, but only with the power of allah subhanawu ta'la

throughout the Quran, one can read that in many places does it mention the FACT that prophets performed miracles.

__________________________________________________ ______________

(reference to the verses and so on are available upon request.)

__________________________________________________ ______________

Conclusion: Muslims and Christians DO belive in the same god, however muslims belive in only ONE god.

[Isambard]

Christians and Muslims dont worship the same god.

"But we both worship the god of Abraham!"

No you dont. Abraham was a pantheist. Not a monotheist.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

...bible teach that God is a Trinity

God is a Trinity....is there any such verse in Bible ?



verses we need specially for hereafter



Now if God were to take men [immediately] to task for all the evil that they do [on earth],

He would not leave a single living creature upon its face.


However, He grants them respite until a term set: but when the end of their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment, nor can they hasten it.

-Quran (16:61)

[Keltoi]

How you blame them for denying something you yourself admit is inconceivable?:ooh:

God Himself is "inconceivable" if you look at it from that perspective.

[Keltoi]

Christians and Muslims dont worship the same god.

"But we both worship the god of Abraham!"

No you dont. Abraham was a pantheist. Not a monotheist.

I trust you can find evidence of pantheism in the Book of Moses?

[Omari]

There is NO such verse in the OLD testiment. Please talk with reference.

[Isambard]

I trust you can find evidence of pantheism in the Book of Moses?

Why yes. Quite a few of the earlier texts in genisis seem to imply that Yahwey is the most powerful God, but not necessarily the only God.

Ill get verses when I come back from class.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;




God is a Trinity....is there any such verse in Bible ?

There is no verse in the Bible saying that what Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, or Jesus taught was Islam either. Does lack of that term prove to you that they didn't practice Islam?

[Amadeus85]

Salaam/peace;




God is a Trinity....is there any such verse in Bible ?

Trinity,The father, The Son and Holy Ghost, appear in Bible for example during Christ's baptism.

[Omari]

There is no verse in the Bible saying that what Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, or Jesus taught was Islam either. Does lack of that term prove to you that they didn't practice Islam?

Islam existed since adam set foot on earth. Islam means submitting to god. And I know as a fact that Adam, abraham, moses, david, jesus peace be upon all of them, taught their followers to submit to god. So yes, all of them taught islam to their people at their time.

:D

[Grace Seeker]

Islam existed since adam set foot on earth. Islam means submitting to god. And I know as a fact that Adam, abraham, moses, david, jesus peace be upon all of them, taught their followers to submit to god. So yes, all of them taught islam to their people at their time.

:D

My point being that the absence of the use of the term "Islam" does not led you to believe that Islam didn't exist, likewise the absence of the use of the term "Trinity" is hardly proof that the Trinity does not exist.

Christians don't believe "IN" the Trinity, we believe in God and that God exists "AS" a Trinity. God does appear in the Bible as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; yet God is still just one.

[Jayda]

hola,

the reason i didn't respond to the Trinity stuff was to keep this on topic... there are countless threads about the meaning, importance and foundations of the Holy Trinity in christianity, this thread is asking a specific question about whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God... i provided my answer and would be happy to explain anything as long as it actually relates to my answer. demanding biblical exegesis for the Trinity is not related to my answer, nor the topic.

and as you can see, attempts to discuss this only drove the topic further off course, now we are also talking about whether islam is in the bible.

que Dios te bendiga

[Omari]

and as you can see, attempts to discuss this only drove the topic further off course, now we are also talking about whether islam is in the bible.

que Dios te bendiga

your right. i should create a new thread, "islam in the bible"

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

There is no verse in the Bible saying that what Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, or Jesus taught was Islam either. Does lack of that term prove to you that they didn't practice Islam?

hehehe , nuh :giggling:

to me , Quran is the cretiria as to u is Bible. So , when Quran is telling me that Prophets (pbut ) were Muslims , i don't have to look for proof in Bible .

But as Jesus (p) never uttered the word Trinity in the whole Bible ( from OT to NT ) , if i were a Christian , i m sure , i would have asked myself ---if our salvation depends on Trinity , why no Prophet including my Lord ever pronounced it ??? :confused:


verses we need specially for hereafter

Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians?

Say: Are you better knowing or God?

And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from God? And God is not at all heedless of what you do.

holy Quran , 2.140

[Grace Seeker]

to me , Quran is the cretiria as to u is Bible. So , when Quran is telling me that Prophets (pbut ) were Muslims , i don't have to look for proof in Bible .

Certainly, but you miss my point.

But as Jesus (p) never uttered the word Trinity in the whole Bible ( from OT to NT ) , if i were a Christian , i m sure , i would have asked myself ---if our salvation depends on Trinity , why no Prophet including my Lord ever pronounced it ?

I truly think I addressed that above in post #64.

[Omari]

grace i get ur point. but islam is EVEN mentioned in the bible let alone the Quran...would u like to read verses that ask people to submit (definition of Islam) to the Lord?

[Omari]

went off topic 2 prove my point.. . Sorry...

[Nasir666]

:sl:to all of my muslim brothers and Sister, hello to all of my Chirstain friends.

Imo Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God, Christians follow Jesus and his father,who have more incommon with the old european pagans gods than The God of the Torah and Quran.

I apologize if this offends anyone.:hiding:

[Grace Seeker]

grace i get ur point. but islam is EVEN mentioned in the bible let alone the Quran...would u like to read verses that ask people to submit (definition of Islam) to the Lord?

And by that way of figuring, since there are verses that refer to the Father as God, the Son as God, and the Holy Spirit as God and that there is still just one God it seems obvious that even without the exact term the definition of Trinity is mentioned in the Bible.

By the way, since I try to live a life of submission to the Lord (your definition of Islam) and I truly do, then also by your way of thinking, I must be a Muslim. So, most certainly Christians and Muslims worship the same God for I am both and worship only one God.

If this offends anyone, Nasir has taught me above that all I now need say is:
I apologize if this offends anyone. :hiding:

[Nasir666]

If this offends anyone, Nasir has taught me above that all I now need say is:
I apologize if this offends anyone. :hiding:

Thank you? :-[

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you? :-[

Well, I don't think that Christians' worship of God is connected with Eurpoean paganism at all, except to try to convert them from it. Thus, I find the allusion to such to be at least mildly offensive, even though I doubt that you seriously intend it that way.

However, I suspect that in the same way that I am offended at having a faith that is in fact rooted in the worship of Yahweh to be equated with paganism, that you may have felt the same with my own self references by which I ascribed Islam to my worship simply because I understand myself to be seeking to live a life of submission to God, as I'm sure it doesn't really fit your definition. Since you probably see that as shirk, I suspect you might be offended, even though I do not mean it that way. But by my way of thinking if Jesus taught Islam, then I am following it because I am attempting to follow what I understand to have been his teachings. We just disagree with regard to what we believe it was that Jesus taught.

[Omari]

Grace, its not "my way of thinking" its the way of thinking. If you think that by such way you are a muslim, then i welcome you to the religion of peace :)

lol
jk


but honestly we're getting off topic, and I think we should end this discussion right here :). And I would love to debate wether Islam is in the bible or not, if you would make a new thread that is :P.

---peace be with you Grace.

Omari

[Omari]

if Jesus taught Islam, then I am following it because I am attempting to follow what I understand to have been his teachings. We just disagree with regard to what we believe it was that Jesus taught.

IF jesus taught us to submit to the lord, then in definition and in fact, he was teaching Islam. As far as what he thaught goes, I can say for a fact that a prophet of Allah, or in your belief, a God, would teach anything that is against humanity as a whole. I mean to say the following in no offence, but rather a challenge;
There are many verses in the bible that teach Rape, Hatred and Racism.
And I personaly challenge any person to bring me out ONE verse in the holy quran, one verse translated ACCURATLY, that is against humanity as a whole :)

and if you WANT to follow what Jesus Christ (PBUH) taught, then I suggest you read the Quran, and pay a little more time to researching Islam. :D

[Grace Seeker]

We're not off topic. The topic is do Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

You claim that Islam is in the Bible, that it is the faith of all the OT prophets and of Jesus. That they all worshipped the same God that Muslims today worship.

And I claim that Christians worship the same God as did Jesus and that he worshipped the same God as all the OT prophets.

Therefore both Muslims and Christians claim to be worshipping the same God as did Jesus and all the OT prophets.

Thus, if the above claims are in fact true, it follows that Muslims and Christians must worship the same God.

[Omari]

Grace, Muslims and Christians and ANYONE who belives that their is only ONE god , THEY ALL WORSHIP the same god :)

The conclusion of the first post I made in this thread was that Muslims and Christians belive in the same god. :)

I am uncertain why certain Muslims brothers choose to argue against that point, NO one can argue against a fact, a fact will remain a fact if it is a fact. And the fact is that Jesus Christ had one god, all the messengers had one god, all the muslims and christians have one god, and thus we all worship the SAME god.

:D

Peace be with you,
Omari

[Nasir666]

Well, I don't think that Christians' worship of God is connected with Eurpoean paganism at all, except to try to convert them from it. Thus, I find the allusion to such to be at least mildly offensive, even though I doubt that you seriously intend it that way.

However, I suspect that in the same way that I am offended at having a faith that is in fact rooted in the worship of Yahweh to be equated with paganism, that you may have felt the same with my own self references by which I ascribed Islam to my worship simply because I understand myself to be seeking to live a life of submission to God, as I'm sure it doesn't really fit your definition. Since you probably see that as shirk, I suspect you might be offended, even though I do not mean it that way. But by my way of thinking if Jesus taught Islam, then I am following it because I am attempting to follow what I understand to have been his teachings. We just disagree with regard to what we believe it was that Jesus taught.

Excellent post brother, i have to say i am quite surprised that you didnt take the easy route and bashed my opinion, i understand your point and i am not offended at all. i have few questions about christianity,would be great if you can answer them,do you want me to post them here or just PM you?

[Grace Seeker]

Excellent post brother, i have to say i am quite surprised that you didnt take the easy route and bashed my opinion, i understand your point and i am not offended at all. i have few questions about christianity,would be great if you can answer them,do you want me to post them here or just PM you?

PM me if you wish. But sometimes I'm not on for several days at a time. Another place you can post questions about Christianity is this thread, Questions About Christians, Requesting Answers From Christians. One of the mods, Brother Woodrow, started it, and it has been running about a year and a half:

This thread is to be strictly Q&A no validation is being asked why something is believed. It is simply an oppotunity for members of The Christian faith to state what they believe, with no need to explain why. Anyone with questions about Christianity please ask them here. Christians if you feel capable please answer such questions here.

If anyone feels that any question or answer needs to be debated, please start a new thread regarding that. Let us try to keep this thread open for honest Questions and honest answers, with no need to explain.

[Whatsthepoint]

Grace, Muslims and Christians and ANYONE who belives that their is only ONE god , THEY ALL WORSHIP the same god :)

Does this include mormons, hindus, sikhs, bahais, deists etc etc?

[Omari]

since when do hindus worship ONE god? ill pm you a full detailed post regarding your question

[Whatsthepoint]

since when do hindus worship ONE god? ill pm you a full detailed post regarding your question

I think they worship one god with multiple avatars.

[Omari]

You've slightly mistaken. Besides, in Islam we do not draw images, statues, or compare our lord with any of his creation. The hindu's on the other hand worship elephants, cows, apes and many other creations. So my answer to you is a no, hindus do not worship the same god as muslims or christians.
For more information you can refer to a dvd by Dr. Zakir Naik; Similarities between hinduism and Islam.

Peace be with you brother
Omari

[ricardo_sousa]

it is the God of Abraham that Jewish, Muslims and Christians worship.. am i wrong?

[Omari]

You aren't wrong brother. Jewish Muslims and Christians do worship the God of Abraham...

Peace
Omari

[ricardo_sousa]

So Abraham must be considered the the must influential man of all times, because he created the "God" that 4 billion people follow this day!

[Omari]

Actualy the most influential man of all times is considered to be Muhammad (PBUH), for muslims anyway. You can easily have asked if we all worship the god of moses or the god of isaac and my reply would have been the to you. Because for us abraham was a prophet like the rest of the prophets.

However, I understand what your intent was by saying that, I just posted this to just give you some information, hopefully you don't mind :)

peace be with you
Omari

[Muslim Woman]

salaam/peace;

So Abraham must be considered the the must influential man of all times, because he created the "God" that 4 billion people follow this day!

huh...nobody created God.

[Omari]

yeah, he knows. He [im sure] said created meaning told people about his god. He used the wrong word though.
Peace,
Omari

[ricardo_sousa]

He [im sure] said created meaning told people about his god.

correct. Thank you.

Abraham teachings were followed by lots of people and ultimate created three big religions.

So the God of Christians and Muslims is the same. They may disagree with several aspects, but the God is the same.

[Omari]

yup :)

[Whatsthepoint]

You've slightly mistaken. Besides, in Islam we do not draw images, statues, or compare our lord with any of his creation. The hindu's on the other hand worship elephants, cows, apes and many other creations. So my answer to you is a no, hindus do not worship the same god as muslims or christians.
For more information you can refer to a dvd by Dr. Zakir Naik; Similarities between hinduism and Islam.

Peace be with you brother
Omari

You said everyone who worships one god is a muslim. Hindus claim they worship one god, therefore they must be muslims. You did not specify people have to believe in the god of Abraham to be considered muslims, that's why I brought up mormons and hindus etc at the first place.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Hindus claim they worship one god, therefore they must be muslims. .

only learned Hindus know that God is one.

Others worship 3 gods ( one god Shiva is the most powerful among Triune gods . I wonder ,
if this is like God the father is most powerful among God the son & holy Spirit ??) . Besides they worship 33 millions gods & goddess.

So , they are committing the blashphemy & MUST not be considered as Muslims as they did not surrender their wills to God & assoiciating partners with HIM

[Whatsthepoint]

Salaam/peace;



only learned Hindus know that God is one.

Others worship 3 gods ( one god Shiva is the most powerful among Triune gods . I wonder ,
if this is like God the father is most powerful among God the son & holy Spirit ??) . Besides they worship 33 millions gods & goddess.

So , they are committing the blashphemy & MUST not be considered as Muslims as they did not surrender their wills to God & assoiciating partners with HIM

Hindus worship one god, that's what they say.
I'm not an expert in Christian theology, but I know none of the persons in the trinity surpasses the other two.
Christians also associate partners with god (at least from an Islamic standpoint), they make images, catholics have saints and AMry...Why are they considered the people of teh book and not Hindus?

[Whatsthepoint]

Abraham teachings were followed by lots of people and ultimate created three big religions.

there's no proof Abraham actually existed, so he can't make it to the most influental people list.
The most influental men in recorded history are Jesus and Muhammad, I can't decide which one to put on the top.

[Omari]

You said everyone who worships one god is a muslim. Hindus claim they worship one god, therefore they must be muslims. You did not specify people have to believe in the god of Abraham to be considered muslims, that's why I brought up mormons and hindus etc at the first place.

Whatsthepoint, I merely translated the word "Islam" into english. Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law. So sure anyone who does the above, be they christian, jew, muslim, even hindu. Then they are already following part of the religion of peace. But then the first sentence of the translation reads ...and obedience to His law. Which is the shariah, [yes i know im giving you information you already know] but hey, what do you have to lose? :)
the shariahis only followed by muslims, and a muslim is somone who does follow the law and sumbits to Allah. Which hindus don't do, I am aware that i didn't mention that before, but I thought you already knew the answer, it's either you didn't know or you just wanted to challenge me. :playing:lol. fair enough.

And about abraham (PBUH), Allah says in the quran (Surah Al-Imran, 67)
"Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's, and he joined not gods with Allah."

hopefully this post was useful to you brother.
Omari

[Omari]

The most influental men in recorded history are Jesus and Muhammad, I can't decide which one to put on the top.

Well technically it can't be jesus, as those who currently follow him are all believing that he was god. So he can't exactly be th emost influental "man" in recorded history...

[Whatsthepoint]

Well technically it can't be jesus, as those who currently follow him are all believing that he was god. So he can't exactly be th emost influental "man" in recorded history...

Lol, true.:D
From an objective, historical point of view Jesus was a man. And anyway, Christians say he is 100% god and 100% man.

[Whatsthepoint]

the shariahis only followed by muslims, and a muslim is somone who does follow the law and sumbits to Allah. Which hindus don't do, I am aware that i didn't mention that before, but I thought you already knew the answer, it's either you didn't know or you just wanted to challenge me. :playing:lol. fair enough.

I'm a bit confused. Some people say that, some say something else...
for instance, your post raises some new questions. Why do you claim Jesus was a muslims eventhough he did not follow the shariah law?

[Omari]

yeah I know that according to the Orthodox Christian belief, Jesus was perfect man and perfect God at the same time. This belief is necessary for salvation according to the Athanasian creed held dear by most Christians. Modern Christian scholars reject this idea not because it is difficult to understand but because it cannot be meaningfully expressed. The doctrine cannot be stated in any way that is free from contradictions. It is impossible for Jesus to have been perfect man and perfect God at the same time, for this would mean that he was finite and infinite at the same time, that he was fallible and infallible at the same time. This cannot be.:heated:
:D

[Omari]

oh, simply because the official shariah law came after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) all the other prophets brought their OWN words from god but it was for their OWN time. In fact in the bible it says, there are so many things that I must tell you , but I cannot, then he should come teach you.[referring to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)]

Question answered? [please let me know]

[Whatsthepoint]

yeah I know that according to the Orthodox Christian belief, Jesus was perfect man and perfect God at the same time. This belief is necessary for salvation according to the Athanasian creed held dear by most Christians. Modern Christian scholars reject this idea not because it is difficult to understand but because it cannot be meaningfully expressed. The doctrine cannot be stated in any way that is free from contradictions. It is impossible for Jesus to have been perfect man and perfect God at the same time, for this would mean that he was finite and infinite at the same time, that he was fallible and infallible at the same time. This cannot be.:heated:
:D

Well, they say anything's possible with god, and a god is not a god if he can't transorm himself into a fallible human...and according to christians only one third transformed, two thirds remained omniscient...They also say god is above human logic, so all this nonsense is useless.
I don't like philosophy/theology all that much...:-[

[Whatsthepoint]

oh, simply because the official shariah law came after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) all the other prophets brought their OWN words from god but it was for their OWN time. In fact in the bible it says, there are so many things that I must tell you , but I cannot, then he should come teach you.[referring to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)]

Question answered? [please let me know]

Jesus mostly followed the jewish/toraic law, which has remained unchanged eversince. He did not bring new laws, according to the Bible. Does that mean the jews are muslims?
That verse refers to the Holy Spirit, at least according to Christians.

[Omari]

They also say god is above human logic, so all this nonsense is useless.

sure, when you can't explain somthing...
unfortunatly for the christian, Jesus christ (PBUH) never claimed divinity in the bible. Where are the christian scholars coming up with the philosophy in the first place :S

I don't like the philosophy/theology all that much...:-[

All i can say to that is...:beard: lol

peace

Omari

[Omari]

Jesus mostly followed the jewish/toraic law, which has remained unchanged eversince. He did not bring new laws, according to the Bible. Does that mean the jews are muslims?
That verse refers to the Holy Spirit, at least according to Christians.

brother, by saying he brought new laws to the land I was refering the the Holy book, (toraic law). Before him there was surely other laws.

And yes, ANYONE who followed ANY of the prophets correctly WERE muslims. How ever new laws must be replaced by old ones to fit the time. For example I cannot give you an instruction manual for a gramophone to come with your iPod. Get what i'm pointing at?

Peace.

[Whatsthepoint]

sure, when you can't explain somthing...
unfortunatly for the christian, Jesus christ (PBUH) never claimed divinity in the bible. Where are the christian scholars coming up with the philosophy in the first place :S

He never denied it.
This reminds me: if the greedy church changed the bible to suit its nasty intentions, why did it not include a clear verse about Jesus' divinity, or a clear verse about the church's dominance...

[Omari]

Lol that's a question to be asked in the other thread, "Questions about christians, requesting answers from Christians"

And you're so right. But they KNOW that we [muslims, specifically] are going to point at the older version and say, hello you just changed a big part, and that would make the bible lose it's once had authencity yet a bit more.

ii guess thats why.
Omari

[Whatsthepoint]

brother, by saying he brought new laws to the land I was refering the the Holy book, (toraic law). Before him there was surely other laws.

And yes, ANYONE who followed ANY of the prophets correctly WERE muslims. How ever new laws must be replaced by old ones to fit the time. For example I cannot give you an instruction manual for a gramophone to come with your iPod. Get what i'm pointing at?

Peace.

Sure.
How come God sent thousands of prophets in a period of a couple millenia, which consisted of only minor social changes, couple of wars etc, yet he has not sent a single prophet in the last 13 centuries, which are probably the most exiting, the most bloody, the most decadent, the most anti-god of all the eras in history?
Sure, you'll say the Quran is for every place and every time...why hasn't god sent such a book at the first place?
Sure, you'll say he did, but the humans changed and distorted it.
Well, why did he not protect it from distortion?
Sure, you'll say...hmm, I don't know what you'll say here, It never came that far before.

[Omari]

This is what i say brother.

God says in the quran, I will protect this book from DISTORTION :). and he did, there is a thread here, [if you choose not to find it i should find it for you ] that talks about the authencity of the quran. The quran has never, isn't, and never will be changed.

peace be with you brother.
Omari

[Whatsthepoint]

Lol that's a question to be asked in the other thread, "Questions about christians, requesting answers from Christians"

And you're so right. But they KNOW that we [muslims, specifically] are going to point at the older version and say, hello you just changed a big part, and that would make the bible lose it's once had authencity yet a bit more.

ii guess thats why.
Omari

no, it's muslims who claim the Bible's been changed.
Lol, you say they changed it but now you're saying they wouldn't change it because they were to afraid to do it.
Can you prove the older versions of the original (hebrew and greek) Bible differ from the newer ones? And don't bring up the gnostic gospels.

[Omari]

yet he has not sent a single prophet in the last 13 centuries, which are probably the most exiting, the most bloody, the most decadent, the most anti-god of all the eras in history?

Allah says in the quran Chapter 33, verse 40."Muhammad is not the father of anyone of your men, but he is the messenger of God and the SEAL OF THE PROPHETS; God has knowledge of everything."

peace
Omari

[Whatsthepoint]

This is what i say brother.

God says in the quran, I will protect this book from DISTORTION :). and he did, there is a thread here, [if you choose not to find it i should find it for you ] that talks about the authencity of the quran. The quran has never, isn't, and never will be changed.

peace be with you brother.
Omari

I know, but why hasn't he done so with the revelatons prior to the Quran?
And the Quran says nothing about iPods, shouldn't God have sent another by now?
iPods are a metaphor, of course.

[Omari]

Can you prove the older versions of the original (hebrew and greek) Bible differ from the newer ones? And don't bring up the gnostic gospels.

yes i can brother. infact, YOU can. Simply by googling it. :D

[Whatsthepoint]

yes i can brother. infact, YOU can. Simply by googling it. :D

I'd appreciate if you did it.:)
There are plenty of sites claiming the Bible hasn't been changed and many claiming it has.

[Omari]

Sure brother, then you'l have to give me some time, because merely copy pasting somthing has a big risk attached to it.

[Whatsthepoint]

Sure brother, then you'l have to give me some time, because merely copy pasting somthing has a big risk attached to it.

Such as?
If the mods don't like it, they'll simply erase your post.
You can provide a link if you want.

[Omari]

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16).

[Omari]

Cheers

click on it :)

[Whatsthepoint]

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16).

This does not prove the Bible was changed. For this to be a proof of your claims, you have to take into account that the Bible was once perfect, which cannot be proven.

[Omari]

http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/r...n/spurious.htm

[Whatsthepoint]

Cheers

click on it :)

thanks!

[Whatsthepoint]

http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/r...n/spurious.htm

I haven't read the entire site but it's not hard to notice, the site is inconsistent. Sometimes it mentions the actual changs, sometimes the translatiosn, next there are contradictions as such, there are many if's and assumptions. I wouldn't call this a reliable site.
Well, I am sure there have been changes, the New Testament has been transmitted by oral tradition, the gospels were written down after Jesus's death, even after some of the disciples' deaths. There were many manuscripts and hence the possible changes.
And anyway, the Church gathered the Bible after many years of theological debate, councils etc, so they more or less excluded intentionally changed writings, I guess it must have resembled the hadith science.
I don't think the Bble was changed in order to fit the Church's needs and wishes.

Here's one of the claims from the site:

• Ten to 12.5 per cent of the New Testament is possibly tainted.

Now, don't you think if the the 87,5-90% of the Bible were unchanged, it's original message(Islam in your opinion) would be clearly visible (more clearly than it is now)?

[ummsara1108]

assalam alaakium/Hello first time poster here.

I believe christians, muslims and jews all believe in the same and one and only unique god, however jesus (peace be upon him) is part of the trinity to christians as a way to get to god, almost like believing in Muhammad (peace be upon him) if you don't believe your not a muslim.

Just my two sense, no offence intended

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;



only learned Hindus know that God is one.

Others worship 3 gods ( one god Shiva is the most powerful among Triune gods . I wonder ,
if this is like God the father is most powerful among God the son & holy Spirit ??) .

Just a correction to the assumption that God the Father is considered more powerful than God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. That is not actually a teaching of Christianity.

[Grace Seeker]

there's no proof Abraham actually existed, so he can't make it to the most influental people list.
The most influental men in recorded history are Jesus and Muhammad, I can't decide which one to put on the top.

Well, normally I would say Jesus. But see, that's just me favoring my religion. I'm feeling a little more conciliatory today. What if we agree that Muhammad was the most influential MAN, but I'll be expecting something in return, like the reason Jesus doesn't qualify as the most infuential man is because my Muslim friends have decided to recognize him in the category of God.:okay:

[Grace Seeker]

yeah I know that according to the Orthodox Christian belief, Jesus was perfect man and perfect God at the same time. This belief is necessary for salvation according to the Athanasian creed held dear by most Christians. Modern Christian scholars reject this idea not because it is difficult to understand but because it cannot be meaningfully expressed. The doctrine cannot be stated in any way that is free from contradictions. It is impossible for Jesus to have been perfect man and perfect God at the same time, for this would mean that he was finite and infinite at the same time, that he was fallible and infallible at the same time. This cannot be.:heated:
:D

The "modern" Christian scholars you refer to would be themselves rejected as not speaking with integrity on behalf of the faith. Christianity most certainly allows for the concept of Jesus as both God and Man, fully human and fully divine, just exactly as described in the Council of Chalcedon. If you have been taught otherwise by some "modern" theologians, I would question whether they are really either "Christian" or "scholars". We can live with the paradox of holding two apparently contravening thoughts as both true at the same time, without a problem.

But as for the "problems" you mention, I don't actually see them as even being real problems. For instance, an apple seed, an apple peal, and the flesh of an apple are none of them 100% of the apple. But each of them are still 100% apple, for they most certainly are not orange, pineapple, pear, watermelon or kumquat. Jesus could be 100% man and 100% God, both at the same time. Just as he was not all of humanity, he also did not have to be all of divinity. So there is no issue of him being finite and infinite at the same time. As for his fallibiity/infallibity, I've never heard it suggested that he was fallible, though I grant that I don't see him as having been omniscent. But I would also suggest that the reality of his divinity does need to hang on any of those attributes.

unfortunatly for the christian, Jesus christ (PBUH) never claimed divinity in the bible. Where are the christian scholars coming up with the philosophy in the first place :S

It is enough for me that Thomas recognized and addressed Jesus as "my God", and Jesus accepted it (John 20:28). There is much more in the scriptures than that, but that simple exchange is all I really need to know that Jesus was God.

oh, simply because the official shariah law came after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) all the other prophets brought their OWN words from god but it was for their OWN time. In fact in the bible it says, there are so many things that I must tell you , but I cannot, then he should come teach you.[referring to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)]
[please let me know]

Actually, the Bible does not refer to Muhammad at all. I know you are taught that as a Muslim, but it requires reading into the text in a way that is a perversion of what it is actually saying to arrive at such a conclusion. You are also taught that since Jesus said to the Canaanite woman, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) that Jesus' message was only for that select group. Unfortunately those who have taught you that have completely neglected to also inform you that Jesus himself sent his disciples out further afield than he had ever gone: "go and make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19) and "you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8). I am sorry to tell you that while the scriptural passages you have been taught are correct, their application has been stilted so as to result in an error in understanding.

[ummsara1108]

1. Where does it spacificaly say TRINITY in the bible? Not the (meaning) but the (word) TRINITY.

2. Why do most chrisitans follow the new testament? is it not part of abandonment for the old original testament?

3. why is it ok to eat pork in the new testament and forbiden in the old?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Just a correction to the assumption that God the Father is considered more powerful than God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. That is not actually a teaching of Christianity.

but when we read Bible , always we see that it's the Father who is giving orders or deciding matters for son & others.

It's the son who is confirming that my father is greater than all etc. So , why it's wrong to say that father is the most powerful ? After all father never died but son died .

[Grace Seeker]

1. Where does it spacificaly say TRINITY in the bible? Not the (meaning) but the (word) TRINITY.

It's in the same verse that says all prophets taught Islam.

2. Why do most chrisitans follow the new testament? is it not part of abandonment for the old original testament?

All Christians follow the New Testament or they are not actually Christians, but Jews. Why? Because Jesus instituted a new covenant, and Christians are partakers of that new covenant that Jesus instituted and the story of which is told in the New Testament. This new covenant is for all people. One does not have to become a participant in the old covenant (a Jew) to be a Christian.

3. why is it ok to eat pork in the new testament and forbiden in the old?

For the same reason that Muslims do not worship on the Saturday Sabbath. Not eating of pork was one of the requirements of the old covenant, but it was not made one of the requirements of the new covenant. Remember, most Christians are not Jews. The old covenant was never binding upon them to begin with. Those few Christians that have Jewish heritage often do keep the practice of not eating pork.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;



but when we read Bible , always we see that it's the Father who is giving orders or deciding matters for son & others.

It's the son who is confirming that my father is greater than all etc. So , why it's wrong to say that father is the most powerful ? After all father never died but son died .

But that has to do with submission, not power.

[ummsara1108]

ok then if jews follow the old testament and christians are not jewish then why is it in the bible (the old testament) then do christians only follow half of the bible?

[ummsara1108]

please don't get me wrong, I am not debating just need more info. ty

[Omari]

....huh?

[Omari]

But that has to do with submission, not power.

Not neccessarily, If jesus christ could bring the dead back to life, could cure the blind, why take dicisions from "the father". God doesn't need to submit to anyone, ITS GOD! It sounds slightly hypothetical to me, god submitting to god.
[not much of a god if his decisions are taken by the father.]


Ofcourse, this is my opinion grace, and i am 125% sure you're going to correct me :)
hit me with your best shot

Peace be with you
Omari

[Muslim Woman]

salaam/peace;

But that has to do with submission, not power.

pl. explain more. Why Jesus (p) needed to submit himself to father ?

Why he asked help from father when he was in danger ?

These indicate that father was always more powerful than his son .


Verses we need specially for hereafter :


"Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam.

He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace :)



Muslims believe Jesus (p) spoke as infant. Do Christians have any such belief ?

"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?'

He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " chapter Mary (19:29-30).



Grace Seeker : Jesus doesn't qualify as the most influential man is because my Muslim friends have decided to recognize him in the category of God

---I think , Christians must not compare Jesus (p) with any human being as they worship him as God. They should do it with other deities i.e. father & holy spirit





Grace Seeker : It is enough for me that Thomas recognized and addressed Jesus as "my God", and Jesus accepted it (John 20:28)


---but what if like the poison verse , this verse was also added later ? Very few ( only 3 or 4 verses ) go against the entire Bible & u r putting ur hereafter only on those few verses & ignoring the rest of the teaching ?


Hope I don’t sound rude but is it wise to do so ?

Omari:. im a full member Wooooot

Congrates

Verses we need for this world --specially hereafter....so pl. read carefully






Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides God; they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either, nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up.
[34.22]




God sets forth an example:



There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man.



Are the two alike in condition?



(All) praise is due to God. Nay! most of them do not know.[39.29]

[ummsara1108]

Muslim Woman,

As a person that grew up chirstian, I have heard the same story about jesus (pbuh) speaking as an infant. The similarity of Jesus (pbuh) in the bible and the koran are amazing except the few things like son of god, trinity and died on the cross and arose from the dead, but the other stories are amazingly the same, as is moses, abaraham/ibraham, adam and so on. Learning between the two I find many similarities. Good question by the way. hope i didn't go on and on and on and on....lol

[ummsara1108]

oh and mabrak/congrats on becoming a full member, I am working on it...lol

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker : Jesus doesn't qualify as the most influential man is because my Muslim friends have decided to recognize him in the category of God

---I think , Christians must not compare Jesus (p) with any human being as they worship him as God. They should do it with other deities i.e. father & holy spirit

I'm not sure what you are saying, but I hope you realized that I was speaking in jest. For that reason you can't isolate just one part of what I said from the rest and think it has any meaning of its own. To understand what I was saying you must read the whole of it in context:

originally quoted by Grace Seeker in answer to a previouly posted question, "Who was the most influential man in history, Jesus or Muhammad?"

Well, normally I would say Jesus. But see, that's just me favoring my religion. I'm feeling a little more conciliatory today. What if we agree that Muhammad was the most influential MAN, but I'll be expecting something in return, like the reason Jesus doesn't qualify as the most infuential man is because my Muslim friends have decided to recognize him in the category of God.:okay:

As a person that grew up chirstian, I have heard the same story about jesus (pbuh) speaking as an infant.

Really? I obviously went to the wrong church, wrong Sunday school classes, wrong summer Vacation Bible School programs, and read the wrong Bible. I never heard such stories until I was in college, and then they came from non-Christian sources.

[Omari]

Really? I obviously went to the wrong church, wrong Sunday school classes, wrong summer Vacation Bible School programs, and read the wrong Bible. I never heard such stories until I was in college, and then they came from non-Christian sources.

Well obviously your own chiristian freinds are not going to tell you things that is going to make you think twice. [Keep in mind I have no idea what he's talking about].
But it's not at all surprising that you heard such things in college from non-christian sources, I rarely get into a debate with my own muslim people...

Omari

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker : It is enough for me that Thomas recognized and addressed Jesus as "my God", and Jesus accepted it (John 20:28)


---but what if like the poison verse , this verse was also added later ? Very few ( only 3 or 4 verses ) go against the entire Bible & u r putting ur hereafter only on those few verses & ignoring the rest of the teaching ?


Hope I don’t sound rude but is it wise to do so ?

You have made several statements here, and poised more than one question. Because they are interwoven it will take some time to unpack what you have said so that they can be properly discussed.

First, there is the implied accusation that it is unwise to base one's faith on just a few select verses. I would agree. I also would suggest that the same standard be applied to the Islam and the Qur'an. Would you concur with that? It is far to ease for people to misunderstand the meaning behind a single verse. Even when attempting to read it in context, it may be that because we are not from that time, that culture that we still do not fully grasp it the import of what it is saying. When those who know us well are known to sometimes misunderstand us, surely we can see how this could happen with something read in scriptures, even by those who might have been present at the time it was spoken. For this reason, I do not make it a habit of hanging my beliefs on any single passage.

Second, with regard to Jesus being God, I did say that the passage about Thomas is enough for me, but I also noted that there are many other passages I could have referred to that also convey the same idea. Thus you note that while I did not cite every one of those passages to you, that in formulating my belief I have remained consistant to what I already addressed in point #1.

Third, the integrity of the Johanine passage in which Thomas greets Jesus as "My Lord and my God." has never been seriously challenged, and I am aware of no textual variants with regard to this passage.


But this raises a larger question. I wonder if you understand the science of textual criticism with regard to the Bible? I suggest that you should. Most Christians would not, nor would they be expected to. Just as you have scholars for the work of interpretation in Islam, so we have scholars for the work of textual criticism with regard to the Bible. But it might help you to have some idea as to what they do in order to better understand the difference between questioning a passage such as the longer ending of Mark which included the comments about the poison and the passage in John where Thomas calls Jesus "my God" and Jesus accepts it.

I know that you are very much aware that the original autographs of the Bible have been lost to history (and probably crumbled into dust). Thus all that remains are copies and copies of copies. You probably are also aware, but haven't spent much time thinking about the fact that originally the bible was not written as a single book. But that means that when copies were made, they didn't always copy the whole Bible. Sometimes they only copied portions of it. The might have copied the Torah, or the Prophets, or just one prophet when dealing with the Tanakh. And with regards to what became the New Testament, the folks who handled the first copies might not have even thought of them as anything extra special at the time, but just a letter from a friend, something to share with other friends. Have you ever gotten a multipage letter from a friend while sitting in the midst of a bunch of other friends who knew the writer as well, and rather than reading the letter as a whole taken it apart and passed it around for all to read in bits and pieces. In the process of making copies, this could easily have happened with some of the material.

Knowing this is why I try not to get too bent out of shape when Muslims talk about the Bible being corrupted. I don't think it is in the way they mean, that it isn't trustworthy, but to try to say that nothing has happened to any of it is equally ludicrous, and not a postion that I would feel comfortable trying to defend. Indeed, in the process of copying and making copies of copies, the Bible (or portions of it) had been reproduced literally thousands of times (even tens of thousands of times) before the invention of the printing press. (One can hardly imagine how many copies of it exist today.) For the purpose of textual criticism. Some of the latter copies are preserved in full. Some of them where never meant by the writer to be used as part of a Bible, but were just copies from a Bible to be used as the lessons to be read in worship for a given Sunday's lesson. (These sorts of copies are called lectionaries.) And of course some of what we have found are but the tattered remains of very early copies, where sometimes more is lost than remains. Each one of these early handwritten manuscripts, no matter what its original purpose or how small the piece of it left, has been given a name or a number.

When publishers prepare to print a Bible, the first thing they do -- long before translating -- is try to determine what the original autographs actually where. In other words they need to determine among the tens of thousands of copies and copies of copies, and passages copied into lectionaries, and small fractions of copies that exist just as scraps, etc... what the original text actually said.

It is of course a huge task, and we are fortunate that there are people who make it their life's work to study these things. But it isn't quite as bad as it might at first sound. The good news is that for the vast majority of the scriptures there really aren't any questions or doubts. Copy after copy after copy, even those that were simply people quoting passages in letters to friends and writing them for lectionary readings say exactly the same thing. The passage about Thomas calling Jesus "My Lord and my God." from John 20:28 is one of those type of passages.

But the passage about drinking poison and handling snakes in Mark 16 is not. With that passage we have what are called variant readings. And in fact, the ending of Mark 16 is one of the most contested passages with variant readings in the entire Bible.

Variant readings can occur in several ways. And once they have occurred, unless you have the original to compare it with, you probably wouldn't realize that it was in error.

One of the drawbacks of making copies is that once a mistake has been made, unless it is so obvious as to be corrected, it will appear in all the copies of that copy from now on. Because of this, consideration must be given to the age of the manuscripts that contain a particular reading as well as the number of manuscripts that contain it. If an error is made in an early manuscript, all the copies from it will contain that error. If it was an often copied manuscript, there will be many manuscripts that contain that error, so the true text cannot be arrived at by counting manuscripts.

But with the Bible these copyists errors tended to group themselves geographically to the general regions in which the text that was being copied existed and was copied over and over again. Today, we have access not just to one text, but to texts from all over the world, and by comapring them are able to work backwards with a high degree of certainty to what the original text most probably was. (If you would be interested in learning more about this process, I recommend the following site: An Introduction To Textual Criticism.)

Of course, "probably" is the operative word. With most passages, because there are no variants, we have complete certainty. With others, because the variant is something as simple as failing to dot an "i", we have every bit as much as if there were no variant at all.

One of the jobs of the scholar of textual criticism is to help us make a determination of exactly what level of confidence we can have in any given text as rightly reflecting the original autograph or not. Different people have different personal rating systems. But one of the most common is to rate them like with grades in school: A, B, C, and D. A passage that has no variants simply isn't rated at all, as there is no question as to what it was. But when there exists 2 or more different possibilities, each is graded as to the level of confidence that the textual scholar is willing to assign to it after comparing it with the other possibilities. That passage to which the highest level of certainty can be assigned is the one from which the translation used by the publisher will be made. However, sometimes, with a famous passages such as the Mark 16 passage, the publisher may wish to include a translation of the famous passage even though it is doubted and indicate such by way of a footnote. So read your footnotes. But also let that information be a hint to you. If you are reading a Bible and see a footnote that says: "other ancient manuscritps read xyz" it is telling you that the xyz is actually considered less likely than what was printed. It is put in there for information purposes only, not because reading the footnoted passages will give you a more accurate understanding of the original text.


What any of this has to do with the actual topic of this thread, I don't know. Perhaps, if you have more questions along this line, you should make them and I can answer them in a thread where such questions are more appropriate.

[Grace Seeker]

ok then if jews follow the old testament and christians are not jewish then why is it in the bible (the old testament) then do christians only follow half of the bible?

The first Christians were all Jewish. They never threw away their scriptures. They said that God initiated a new covenant with people in Jesus Christ. Both Jews and non-Jews were invited to participate in this new covenant. But the Old Covenant was never rejected for those who were Jewish. Rather, Christians of Jewish heritage saw the Old Covenant as being fulfilled in Jesus. And Christians of non-Jewish heritage simply entered into this New Covenant. But even it made frequent reference to facets of the Old Covenant. For instance, righteousness was understood as that type which Abraham practiced. So, Abraham was sort of a spiritual forefather even for non-Jews. And the history of God's interaction with his chosen people was seen as important for now all who came to him in Christ understood themselves to be chosen people. Thus, preserving the record of the old covenant was important, even if keeping all the specifics of it were not binding on any except those who were actually Jews.

Even today, Christians read the Old Testament to get a better understanding of God and his ways, for reading the New Testament without the Old is like reading the American Declaration of Independence without knowing anything about the history of the colonies before 1776. After all, Christians would claim that we worship the same God as the Jews, and that the only difference is we have a better understanding of the fullness of who he is because of Jesus, that they are missing.

[ummsara1108]

I never said you went to the wrong church, or the wrong sunday school, or the wrong vacation bible school, that statement was presented only by you, I mearly answered a question that was asked, and my answer is something that I heard of from a fellow chirstian, I never said that I had proof, but noted that I had heard that, but seeing that you went to all the right churches and the best sunday school and the greatest vacation bible school, and I obviously did not, you tell us...why don't jews believe jesus (pbuh) is the son of god or even god himself?

[Grace Seeker]

I never said you went to the wrong church, or the wrong sunday school, or the wrong vacation bible school, that statement was presented only by you, I mearly answered a question that was asked, and my answer is something that I heard of from a fellow chirstian, I never said that I had proof, but noted that I had heard that, but seeing that you went to all the right churches and the best sunday school and the greatest vacation bible school, and I obviously did not, you tell us...why don't jews believe jesus (pbuh) is the son of god or even god himself?

I'm not a Jew. How can I answer that question for them?


As for my other comment. You said that during the time that you were a Christian you had heard stories of Jesus talking as an infant.

Muslims believe Jesus (p) spoke as infant. Do Christians have any such belief ?

Muslim Woman,

As a person that grew up chirstian, I have heard the same story about jesus (pbuh) speaking as an infant.

The way you write this implies that it was a part of what you learned growing up as a Christian.

For myself, growing up as a Christian, I never heard any of those stories. If you did and I did not, then obviously our Christian experience was significantly different.

Now my question to you. Did these stories you heard of a talking infant Jesus come through your church or from some other, perhaps non-Christian, source?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;


a related question about Jesus's (p) talking as infant :


why Christians think people did not punish Mother Mary (pbuh) when she gave birth to Jesus (p) ? At that time , she was not married , right ?

stoned to death was common ....so what's the explanation for not punishing her ??

[ummsara1108]

from another fellow christian, which means 1, and I was told such, so to imply I said stories meaning more than or all of, means you misread me.

[ummsara1108]

but more so, this subject has gone off path, origianl question was... Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? The answer is Yes

but i'm sure someone else has something better to say

[Keltoi]

On the issue of the infant Jesus speaking...I had never heard that before either. I think it is safe to say that is not traditional Christian doctrine.

[Omari]

Christians and Muslims worship the same god. <<------ Period.

Peace,
Omari

[Grace Seeker]

On the issue of the infant Jesus speaking...I had never heard that before either. I think it is safe to say that is not traditional Christian doctrine.

No, it is not Christian teaching. Where it is found is in some of the gnostic writings. As I know you know, there is a difference.

[BlackMamba]

The God of Muslims and all the people of the book is the same. It says this in Surah Al-Ankaboot beginning of the 21st juz.
وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ
ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

[Grace Seeker]

Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

From a Muslim perspective, that sounds pretty definitive. Given that, why have some Muslims in this thread said otherwise?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Something I found...

Muslim writers have been using Allah in their quotations of the Christian Bible since the ninth century. Jewish scholars have also been translating elohim and elah as Allah since the earliest known Arabic translations of the Torah in the ninth century until today. So in spite of the apparent differences in how God is understood according to Biblical and Qur’anic content, Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims together have been addressing God as “Allah” over the last fourteen centuries.

[BlackMamba]

The Arab Jews and Christians called God Allah even before the birth of Muhammad (s). So even more than 1400 years.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God

This may be a question that we humans keep asking, but I feel the greater question is what do Christians and Muslims mean to God.

In the spirit of praying to one God

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

Because of the computer burp, it may be the my question has been answered and I've missed it. So I would like to ask again.


From a Muslim perspective, the following sounds pretty definitive:

Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Given that, why have some Muslims in this thread said otherwise?







I will also add another poster's comments that I know were lost in the computer burp. To the question:

How can Hindu, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs claim an exclusive path to God?

AntiKarateKid originally responded:
Simple really, we all believe that there is some specific truth God has sent us. Through debating, God's will, and open mindedness we find this truth. As Muslims, we believe that truth will overcome falsehood and this is why we debate other religions and even why we are here on this very thread. Man can have only what he strives for and we will strive for truth and not accept vagueness or falsehood.

[AntiKarateKid]

Graceseeker: Given that, why have some Muslims in this thread said otherwise?

We have differences because when you ask if we worship the same God there are different ways to approach the problem. You can cut right to the Trinity part and shout that we don't worship the same one. OR you can point out the similarities, up until the trinity. Coincidentally the latter way is what Allah intends us to do.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will)." Quran 3.64

It will not do for us to reject Christians and Jews outright like that. They are people of the book too, instead of abandoning them, show them the path that Allah intends. If they still turn away, the fault is on them. Was that not what the Prophet ( pbuh) did?

[snakelegs]

i think it is the same God, but the christian concept of God is completely different and practically incomprehensible to me and most (?) other non-christians.

[MustafaMc]

i think it is the same God, but the christian concept of God is completely different and practically incomprehensible to me and most (?) other non-christians.

That is a very good point. We both believe in the God of Abraham, but we have different concepts and understandings of Who God is. From my perspective, the Muslim concept of Allah is best illustrated by Ayat al-Kursi 2:255 Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and behind them, and they can grasp only that part of His knowledge He wills. Hos pedestal embraces the heavens and the earth, and it tires Him not to uphold them both. He is the High, the Formidable. We Muslims have no mental image of Allah, but we know that He exists by His signs - which for me include His creations (including life itself) and His revealed scriptures.

The Christian concept of God includes the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I personally equate Allah with the Christianity concept of the Father only because that is Who Jesus prayed to and Who in Acts Jesus was indicated as being a servant of. I believe that I am correct in saying that Christians believe that Muslims (and Jews) have an incomplete concept of God because we exclude the Son and Holy Spirit manifestations or persons of God. For myself, I have trouble understanding how Jesus is God and at the same time the Son of God. My understanding is that the Trinity concept of God can't be adequately explained and must be accepted solely on faith.

[barney]

i think it is the same God, but the christian concept of God is completely different and practically incomprehensible to me and most (?) other non-christians.

There was a writer on a christian blog who talked of the infinate patience of God. He cited the numerous times that the Chosen People of God, IE the Jews, transgressed and required God to slaughter them in bundles of either 10000 or 50117, depending on whaich particular epidemic hit them at any given time.(thats my interpretation, not his). However he always returned to them and "forgave" them. The writer noted that it was strange how God hadnt just given up on them and chosen a new people.
When my mind takes me to such things, I wonder if the Yahweh of the jews finally gave up and looked for a new chosen Tribe.

[YusufNoor]

Because of the computer burp, it may be the my question has been answered and I've missed it. So I would like to ask again.


From a Muslim perspective, the following sounds pretty definitive:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Given that, why have some Muslims in this thread said otherwise?

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

in the past [1400 years ago], even the polythiests of Makka admitted that Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, was the god who created the world. as time goes on it appears to Muslims that "Christians" worship Jesus and rarely, IF EVER speak of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. everything is all about Jesus and it seems as if Jesus is THE God[head] (for the "Christians") to us.

we could equated the God the Father[even if you don't KNOW His Name(s)] portion of "Christianity", nearly to Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. but as i hear "Christians" here explain their religion today it seems to me that "their God" cannot exist without the help of 2 other Gods, and has lots of associates.

in Islam, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is PERFERCT and needs no help, neither can we benefit Him nor can we harm Him. that being the case, as "Christians" speak of God nowadays, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is much more powerful than the Trinity God. as MustafaMc put it so well:

the Muslim concept of Allah is best illustrated by Ayat al-Kuris 2:255 Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and behind them, and they can grasp only that part of His knowledge He wills. Hos pedestal embraces the heavens and the earth, and it tires Him not to uphold them both. He is the High, the Formidable

i hope your question wasn't rhetorical!

:w:

[YusufNoor]

double post n00b...

[Grace Seeker]

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

in the past [1400 years ago], even the polythiests of Makka admitted that Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, was the god who created the world. as time goes on it appears to Muslims that "Christians" worship Jesus and rarely, IF EVER speak of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. everything is all about Jesus and it seems as if Jesus is THE God[head] (for the "Christians") to us.

we could equated the God the Father[even if you don't KNOW His Name(s)] portion of "Christianity", nearly to Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. but as i hear "Christians" here explain their religion today it seems to me that "their God" cannot exist without the help of 2 other Gods, and has lots of associates.

in Islam, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is PERFERCT and needs no help, neither can we benefit Him nor can we harm Him. that being the case, as "Christians" speak of God nowadays, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is much more powerful than the Trinity God. as MustafaMc put it so well:




i hope your question wasn't rhetorical!

:w:

No, it wasn't. You and AntiKarateKid have well said why Muslims can be told that we have the same God in the Qur'an and yet act like we have different ones.

Might I suggest that just as you and Mustafa perceive the Christian understanding of the Father to be similar to the Muslim understanding of God that the disciples were in about that same position prior to their encounter with Jesus. And while Jesus directed them to God, and even to call God Father, they also had another experience. It was that other experience that not only was the Father God and Jesus able to help them reconnect with God in a way they had never done so before, but that it was because they came to believe that being with Jesus was to experience being with God himself, in the flesh. They were not trying to explain the Trinity, they didn't even conceive of the Trinity. Rather they were trying to explain what they could not conceive of, that the same God that Jesus was teaching them to worship and call Father, was in fact present amongst them in the person of Jesus himself. Somehow they wanted to declare that and yet remain true to their faith as good Jews that there was only one God. What they realized was that the statement was true, but their expectation of what that statement meant had been too small. God was one, but he was bigger than there understanding of what one was. He did not become three, for there was only one God, but that one God could be experienced in more than one way. That one God could and did reveal himself not only as Father, but had become incarnate and walked among them, and as spirit was not just transcendent, but so imminent as to live within them. I suggest to you that this God is still the living One God whom you choose to worship, but in rejecting Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting neither multiple gods nor associates, but the fullness of God himself.

Now, snakelegs makes a good point, this is in some ways hard to explain. Having been raised with it, I suppose it is easier for me, just like it is easier to speak the language one is raised with than to learn a new langauge. But I don't think that it is incomprehensible. But, one must do a paradigm shift and quit thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind. God is wholly other than ourselves. Thus, human comparisons and saying that no person can be both this and that at the same time are irrelevant, because we are not talking about a person, we are talking about a divine, supernatural being. Those restrictions that belong to things in the natural order do not apply when speaking of one who is outside of and above nature.

[MustafaMc]

Might I suggest that just as you and Mustafa perceive the Christian understanding of the Father to be similar to the Muslim understanding of God that the disciples were in about that same position prior to their encounter with Jesus.

Likewise, would you not agree that the Muslim understanding of God is more similar to that of the people in the OT than the Christian understanding is? The Christian understanding of God would be alien to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David.

And while Jesus directed them to God, and even to call God Father, they also had another experience. It was that other experience that not only was the Father God and Jesus able to help them reconnect with God in a way they had never done so before, but that it was because they came to believe that being with Jesus was to experience being with God himself, in the flesh. They were not trying to explain the Trinity, they didn't even conceive of the Trinity. Rather they were trying to explain what they could not conceive of, that the same God that Jesus was teaching them to worship and call Father, was in fact present amongst them in the person of Jesus himself. Somehow they wanted to declare that and yet remain true to their faith as good Jews that there was only one God. What they realized was that the statement was true, but their expectation of what that statement meant had been too small. God was one, but he was bigger than there understanding of what one was. He did not become three, for there was only one God, but that one God could be experienced in more than one way. That one God could and did reveal himself not only as Father, but had become incarnate and walked among them, and as spirit was not just transcendent, but so imminent as to live within them.

I believe that one could come to that understanding of the disciples' experience of Jesus through much study, putting various verses of the NT together and reading between-the-lines, but I don't believe that it would be readily apparent to the layman through reading on his own Matthew to Revelations.

I suggest to you that this God is still the living One God whom you choose to worship, but in rejecting Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting neither multiple gods nor associates, but the fullness of God himself.

Yes, according to Christian theology everyone who rejects Jesus as God also rejects the "fullness" of God. However, my understanding of Allah is similar to what one would gather from reading the OT as exemplified by Ex. 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. My understanding of the Majesty of Allah is such that we humans can't bear to look upon Him in any fashion while we are mere mortals on earth. I can't imagine God being born of a woman and suffering the humiliations of becoming and being a man.

Now, snakelegs makes a good point, this is in some ways hard to explain. Having been raised with it, I suppose it is easier for me, just like it is easier to speak the language one is raised with than to learn a new langauge. But I don't think that it is incomprehensible. But, one must do a paradigm shift and quit thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind.

I don't see that the Muslim concept of the One God is in any way related to human beings, but I am sure that I missed your point here. Yes, I agree with the paradigm shift analogy. In simplistic terms, what would be required for a Muslim to accept the Christian concept of God is the rejection of the Quran as the Word of God and the rejection of Muhammad (saaws) as the last Messenger of Allah. Likewise, for a Christian to accept the Muslim concept of God, he would have to reject the Bible as the Word of God and any notion that Jesus was "God in the flesh". For this to happen, one must indeed go through a paradigm shift that I contend comes only through Divine guidance.

God is wholly other than ourselves. Thus, human comparisons and saying that no person can be both this and that at the same time are irrelevant, because we are not talking about a person, we are talking about a divine, supernatural being. Those restrictions that belong to things in the natural order do not apply when speaking of one who is outside of and above nature.

Yes, the Divine Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe is incomprehensible to my limited understanding. I chose to believe what the Quran says about the Unseen and Unseeable.

[Grace Seeker]

Likewise, would you not agree that the Muslim understanding of God is more similar to that of the people in the OT than the Christian understanding is? The Christian understanding of God would be alien to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David.

Very much agree. Though I don't think that this in anyway makes Christianity a perversion of the OT understanding of God, rather I find it to be perfecting of it.

I believe that one could come to that understanding of the disciples' experience of Jesus through much study, putting various verses of the NT together and reading between-the-lines, but I don't believe that it would be readily apparent to the layman through reading on his own Matthew to Revelations.

I don't know. It seems that lots of people have.

Yes, according to Christian theology everyone who rejects Jesus as God also rejects the "fullness" of God. However, my understanding of Allah is similar to what one would gather from reading the OT as exemplified by Ex. 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. My understanding of the Majesty of Allah is such that we humans can't bear to look upon Him in any fashion while we are mere mortals on earth. I can't imagine God being born of a woman and suffering the humiliations of becoming and being a man.

I accept that this is your understanding and the extent of your imagination.

I don't see that the Muslim concept of the One God is in any way related to human beings, but I am sure that I missed your point here. Yes, I agree with the paradigm shift analogy. In simplistic terms, what would be required for a Muslim to accept the Christian concept of God is the rejection of the Quran as the Word of God and the rejection of Muhammad (saaws) as the last Messenger of Allah. Likewise, for a Christian to accept the Muslim concept of God, he would have to reject the Bible as the Word of God and any notion that Jesus was "God in the flesh". For this to happen, one must indeed go through a paradigm shift that I contend comes only through Divine guidance.

What I mean by the Muslim concept of the One God being one of "thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind" are some of the arguments against Jesus being God. I continue to read objections to the idea that the infinite can reside in the finite. That if Jesus died then God must have died. If Jesus is God then why would he bother to pray or teach the disciples to pray to the Father? Where was God while Jesus was on earth? I believe that these are specious arguments, at first glance having the ring of truth to them, but based on an entirely false premise. The ring of truth is that in our normal world we expect one object to occupy one physical space at any one given point in time. You and I as human beings are limited in the manner in which we can occupy both time and space to be one place at one time. But I see no such limitation on God. To suggest that the God whom we both admit it eternal and omniprescent can't or wouldn't do something because it would be outside of our human experience is to limit God to that which is part of human experience, and that is what I see Muslim doing when they object to the Christian understsanding of God. The very idea of Christianity is that God is one but that his being is uniquely different than ours existin not in one person as our being does, but as three distinct but intewoven persons, much as the individual strands of a rope are interwoven to create the whole. But when Muslims call this shirk and say that we are ascribing partners or associates to God, it is clear that they simply have yet to understand the very nature of the God that we are talking about.

Somehow Muslims look at each of the strands of the rope as if it stands alone as a rope on its own. Nothing could be farther from the truth with regard to the Christian understanding of the nature of God. We may focus on the different strands one at a time, and some people might use sloppy language referring to the Father as if that was all that one had to say about God, thus leading Muslims to think that their view of God and our view of the Father are on par with each other. They are not. For the Christian view of the Father without the Son is just as incomplete as the Christian view of Jesus apart from the Father and the Spirit. Yet because of their interwovenness, one can never truly be speaking of the Father, the Son or the Spirit without speaking of all three at the same time even if only one is named.

There is just one God, no more, no less. But to say that God is only the Father is in fact to make him less than his full self, because God is by his very nature bigger than either you or I. We do not ascribe partners to him, for they are not partners unless we think of them as partners in a waltz. And then once you remove one partner, the waltz ceases to be a dance and becomes just an indiividual human going through some steps, but it takes the partners interacting with each other to make it into a waltz. Likewise to think of God as just the Father or just the Son or just the Spirit is to limit him.

From a purely human perspective there appears to be two people involved in our waltz, or two people involved in a marriage. But those who have been part of these experiences know that the partnership one experiences as a member of a dance or a marriage creates something brand new, its own unique being. Somehow though there are two people there is just one being. In the case of a dance, it might be one person supporting with feet firmly planted on the ground and the other person lifted up high in the air, but they are still just one. In the case of a marriage it might be one person at work earning a living and another person at home raising children, but together they are still just one being. Attack the wife and the husband experiences being attacked as well. Give praise to the husband and the wife is encouraged by it as well. What others do to one they do to both.

Now those outside of that relationship may not get how that works like that, they may say to the husband, I never said a word against you; what I said was about your wife, not you. That will not change how it is received by the husband. And the fact that others find the nature of this relationship incomprehensible does not make it any the less true. In treating the husband and the wife as individuals they are treating them as human beings, but because they are married they are more than human beings, they are a couple, and in reality a couple is something altogether different than just two human beings associated with each other. Likewise the Christian understanding of God is something altogether different than just God the Father associated with Jesus and the Spirit. And to miss that is to actually make God less than he is, to treat him as nothing more than an individual like two separate human beings are treated in a marriage. It shows a lack of understanding of the full nature of the relationsip as it really exists.

Yes, the Divine Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe is incomprehensible to my limited understanding. I chose to believe what the Quran says about the Unseen and Unseeable.

So you have chosen. As long as you find it to be more authoritative than the Bible we are going to just have to continue to agree to disagree about some of these things.

[MustafaMc]

What I mean by the Muslim concept of the One God being one of "thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind" are some of the arguments against Jesus being God....

GraceSeeker, this entire post was the best explanation of the Christian concept of God that I have ever seen. Although we disagree, I believe that at the very least we understand each other within the limitations of looking at the other's beliefs through our own "lenses" of understanding.

To suggest that the God whom we both admit it eternal and omniprescent can't or wouldn't do something because it would be outside of our human experience is to limit God to that which is part of human experience, and that is what I see Muslim doing when they object to the Christian understsanding of God.

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

But when Muslims call this shirk and say that we are ascribing partners or associates to God, it is clear that they simply have yet to understand the very nature of the God that we are talking about.

Perhaps this does show a lack of understanding; however, if Jesus is in fact only a human being and not God incarnate, then yes indeed it is shirk to say that Jesus is the Son of God.

...some people might use sloppy language referring to the Father as if that was all that one had to say about God, thus leading Muslims to think that their view of God and our view of the Father are on par with each other. They are not.

Yes, this is a good point, thus my usual hesitation to use the term "Father" because by default it implies offspring which we Muslims reject. So in this sense it is obvious that we don't worship the same God because Christians include Jesus in their concept of God while Muslims exclude him.

For the Christian view of the Father without the Son is just as incomplete as the Christian view of Jesus apart from the Father and the Spirit. Yet because of their interwovenness, one can never truly be speaking of the Father, the Son or the Spirit without speaking of all three at the same time even if only one is named. ... Likewise the Christian understanding of God is something altogether different than just God the Father associated with Jesus and the Spirit. And to miss that is to actually make God less than he is, to treat him as nothing more than an individual like two separate human beings are treated in a marriage. It shows a lack of understanding of the full nature of the relationsip as it really exists.

By our rejection of Jesus as God incarnate, Christians see Muslims as rejecting the totality of God's nature. It just so happens that this rejection of the Triune nature of God also means a rejection of the "free gift of salvation" through believing that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their sins.

By Christians equating Jesus with God, we Muslims see Christians as ascribing partners with Allah as made crystal clear in the Quran. It just so happens that this shirk is also the unforgivable sin according to Islamic theology.

Again, it all boils down to a matter of faith and what we chose to believe is True.

Peace.:peace:

[Grace Seeker]

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

Really? So, in that sense Allah is limited. I never would have guessed.

For Christians, while some of these are gross and places that we would not want to live; God is greater. I guess I shouldn't really leave anyone thinking that God exists within these places either. In saying that God is greater, one of the things that I am saying is that God exists outside of time and space. God doesn't even exist in the sanctuary of a church or the temple that Solomon built for him.

Therefore God is not impunged because of something that you or I would find despicable ourselves. When God's temple is desecrated, it isn't because God is somehow lessened, it is because the people who desecrate are showing disrespect and not honoring God. But a catepillar and a butterfly equally bring glory to God. One form is not superior to the other. And king's throne or bathroom throne neither of these is superior either, all are beneath God. When we fail to recognize that God's valuation has nothing to do with our way of valuing things, it is because we once again project man's ways of thinking and valuing on to God.

This really makes the understanding of the incarnation a pretty incredible statement. For to suggest that God would take upon himself that which is so limited is worse than to suggest that he might, in a pantheistic understanding, exist in toilets and cesspools.

Perhaps this does show a lack of understanding; however, if Jesus is in fact only a human being and not God incarnate, then yes indeed it is shirk to say that Jesus is the Son of God.

Oh, I would whole-heartedly concur. "IF" being the operative word.

Yes, this is a good point, thus my usual hesitation to use the term "Father" because by default it implies offspring which we Muslims reject. So in this sense it is obvious that we don't worship the same God because Christians include Jesus in their concept of God while Muslims exclude him.

Two thoughts here.

First, just a reminder that when Christians use the terms "Father" or "Son" we are not trying to imply offspring any more than the Muslim does. We are talking about the nature of relationship. Perhaps if we were to create this language today, we would use different langauge. Some prefer the terms "Creator", "Redeemer", and "Sustainer" to "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit". But I'm a enough of a traditionalist to stick with the biblical language.

Second, I don't know that it means that we don't worship the same God. When my son was about 4 we made a trip to Chicago, and driving north on Lakeshore Drive, with Lake Michigan stretching out before him as far as he could see, he called it "my pool". Now, you won't find "my pool" on a map of the Great Lakes, but if you talk to anyone in my family we would tell you that "my pool" and Lake Michigan are one and the same. Oh most certainly, Brian's concept of what Lake Michigan was were much different even from his sister only a year older, but even with those different lenses through which they looked at and understood the world we all understood that we were talking about the same body. And my friends up in Mackinaw City who live on the shores of that very same lake, yet it experience it completely differently at it's northernmost reaches from those of us at its southern terminous know we are all still talking about the same body of water, though we each conceive of it quite differently from the other.

By our rejection of Jesus as God incarnate, Christians see Muslims as rejecting the totality of God's nature. It just so happens that this rejection of the Triune nature of God also means a rejection of the "free gift of salvation" through believing that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their sins.

Well, rejecting Jesus doesn't mean that you have rejected the grace that God offers in Jesus. To tricky for this post to explain, but I still hold out hope for many who are do not themselves profess Christ.

By Christians equating Jesus with God, we Muslims see Christians as ascribing partners with Allah as made crystal clear in the Quran. It just so happens that this shirk is also the unforgivable sin according to Islamic theology.

Which is exactly why I cannot except the Qur'an as a true revelation from God. The Qur'an claims as a truth something that I know to be untrue.

Again, it all boils down to a matter of faith and what we chose to believe is True.

Yes, it does. We can try to respect each other all we want, but eventually there are some points where we just run out of wiggle room to accomodate alternatre beliefs.

Peace.:peace:

I continue to wish you the same.
:sl:

[MustafaMc]

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

Can one more knowledgeable of Islam correct my post if I am in error?

[snakelegs]

i am not knowledgeable in islam, but what i have read is that God is above his throne (outside of his creation) although his knowledge is everywhere.
i guess this would mean that he is beyond time and space?

[*Hana*]

Can one more knowledgeable of Islam correct my post if I am in error?

I am not more knowledgeable, brother, but that is absolutely my understanding as well.

To Graceseeker: This has nothing to do with limitations, but has everything to do with ummmm, surroundings. Associating human attributes to God is what limits Him. For example: Why would God need to be in the bathroom, cesspools, etc? It is not necessary. If something horrible happens to me in a bathroom, like maybe a slip and fall, and I pray for help, He doesn't have to be there to hear my prayers. The idea of God being "everywhere" just doesn't make sense. Inside a cat? Hanging around the sewage? No, no, it's not necessary. He is far above all that. :)

Peace,
Hana

[MustafaMc]

i am not knowledgeable in islam, but what i have read is that God is above his throne (outside of his creation) although his knowledge is everywhere.
i guess this would mean that he is beyond time and space?

Yes, Snakelegs, this is according to my understanding as well. Allah is closer to us than our in juglar vein, but that does not mean that He courses through my body, rather He knows our innermost thoughts and intentions. I took the liberty of quoting "Fatima" from her answer to this question on another forum that may explain the Muslim understanding of Allah's Presence better than I did.


"Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sorry for late reply, had few other things to do so it took me time to find these ayaat.

“And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then, I am indeed near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he calls on Me. So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright” {2:186}

“And indeed We have created man and We know what his own-self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him then his jugular vein.” {50:16}

“Should not He Who has created know? And he is the Most Kind and courteous (to His slaves), All-Aware (of everything). {67:14}

[2:115] And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

[57:4] He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.

Obviously one can easily understand these verses to mean, that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is near to you and to everyone equally since he is not in any location in particular. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is "everywhere" in the sense that there is no place that is without his presence. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is close to us through His complete knowledge. What about the throne?

[32:5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.

[70:4] To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

[67:16] Do ye feel secure that He Who is Fi-sama (above the heaven) will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)?

Muawiyah bin Al-Hakam As-Salmi said: "I had a slave-girl who used to herd sheep for me. One day I discovered that a wolf had killed one of her sheep, and I'm a man from the children of Adam, I get upset like they get upset, and I slapped her in the face. Then I went to the Prophet who impressed upon me the seriousness of my act. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, should I not set her free?' He said, 'Bring her to me.' He asked her, 'Where is Allah', She said, 'He is above the heavens.' He said, 'Who am I?' She said, 'You are the Messenger of Allah.' He said, 'Free her, for she is a believer.' (Muslim and Abu Dawud)

Now I am sure you are aware that our creator can not be bound in time and space so His presence is above every thing and We can not give a physical decription of His throne. As you said earlier that creation is been given a limited mind so all I know is through Holy Quran that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is above His throne which is above heavens.

Wassalam" - by Fatima at http://www.islamicity.com/forum/foru...s.asp?TID=6721

[Trumble]

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

I too find that most odd. Surely it is "despicable places" where God would be most needed?

[*Hana*]

I too find that most odd. Surely it is "despicable places" where God would be most needed?

Why would you find it odd that God, the most pure, would need to be in the same place where you defecate and urinate, where raw sewage flows, etc. He is far above that and it places limitations on Him to say "He has to be there in order to do His work." Please, give Him a little more credit than that. He doesn't have to be in these places to hear. He's not deaf!! You have to stop applying human attributes to God.

What I find not only odd, but rather disgusting is the fact anyone would think God Almighty would hang out in these places.

Hana

[KAding]

There is nothing evil about defecating or urinating!

[Trumble]

Why would you find it odd that God, the most pure, would need to be in the same place where you defecate and urinate, where raw sewage flows, etc. He is far above that and it places limitations on Him to say "He has to be there in order to do His work." Please, give Him a little more credit than that. He doesn't have to be in these places to hear. He's not deaf!! You have to stop applying human attributes to God.

What I find not only odd, but rather disgusting is the fact anyone would think God Almighty would hang out in these places.

It's you that are applying human attributes to God, not me!! 'Disgust' is a purely human concept, as is 'pure' come to that. Why should God find those places any more 'disgusting' than anywhere else, or indeed in anyway different from anywhere else? They are all part of (His) creation. 'Disgust' is your problem, not God's.

[MustafaMc]

I too find that most odd. Surely it is "despicable places" where God would be most needed?

I can understand why some people believe that God exists within His creation. For myself, I see evidence of Allah through the beauty of nature and the complexity of life processes, but that is not to say that Allah exists within the Grand Canyon or within DNA as it is being transcribed into mRNA and then translated into proteins. What I am trying to explain is my understanding of Allah's omniscience (possessed of universal or complete knowledge) as opposed to His omnipresence (present in all places at all times). Muslims believe that Allah is established on His Throne (Arsh in Arabic) and does not reside within His creation. I believe that this passage illustrates this concept.

Quran 57:1-6 All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah, and He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. To Him belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; it is He Who gives life and causes death; and He has power over all things. He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent, and He has the knowledge of all things. It is He Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then firmly established Himself on the throne of authority. He knows all that enters the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from Heaven and all that ascends to it; and He is with you wherever you are. Allah is aware of all your actions. To Him belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and all affairs go back to Allah for decision. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day to pass into the night, and He has knowledge of the inmost secrets of your hearts.

This phrase, "He is with you wherever you are" could be interpreted on its own to mean that Allah is at all places (top of tallest mountain, bottom of lowest oceanic trench and on the fartherest star) at the same time (past, present and future), but I understand it within the context of the other ayat that He is with us in His Knowledge. Now how Allah knows all that happens and all that is even thought by billions of people until the end of time without actually "being there" is beyond my meager comprehension. Quite simply I have an infinitesimally minute knowledge of Allah (as revealed in the Quran), but He has complete knowledge of me.

...and Allah knows best. Those Muslims who are more knowledgeable than me will kindly correct my errors.

[*Hana*]

It's you that are applying human attributes to God, not me!! 'Disgust' is a purely human concept, as is 'pure' come to that. Why should God find those places any more 'disgusting' than anywhere else, or indeed in anyway different from anywhere else? They are all part of (His) creation. 'Disgust' is your problem, not God's.

nope, it's not, we are ordained to perform wudu to clean ourselves before prayer and yet you would have God come hang around a place impure. Even the bible says to clean yourself and yet you would have the most pure; God Almighty tromping through filth. He doesn't have to be physically in a room to hear a prayer. What part of that don't you understand? THAT is a human attribute.

You may think God has no problem with disgust and filth and you may think it's HIS problem to deal with, but when He tells me to clean myself before prayer and pray in an area that is clean, etc., then I tend to think He has a problem with filth. Even Moses and Jesus cleaned themselves before prayer. So, save your rhetoric for another, non-Abrahamic faith...it doesn't apply here.

Kading: don't be an idiot. Try to keep up!! Who said there was something wrong with defecating and uninating? NO ONE. I said it is impure, unless of course you disagree that it isn't. In which case you need to attend health class 101. Next time try reading before making a ridiculous comment.

[Trumble]

You may think God has no problem with disgust and filth and you may think it's HIS problem to deal with, but when He tells me to clean myself before prayer and pray in an area that is clean, etc., then I tend to think He has a problem with filth. Even Moses and Jesus cleaned themselves before prayer. So, save your rhetoric for another, non-Abrahamic faith...it doesn't apply here.

I think you might want to consider the difference between 'rhetoric' and 'argument' before issuing spurious instruction.

The origins of Biblical ritual purity (Leviticus 13-15) are clearly health related; nothing to do with what God may, or may not, find 'disgusting'. As far as cleansing before prayer goes surely the reason for that is as a mark of respect for God, not because He might be offended by your appearance. People certainly find filth disgusting and hence it is common sense that they make the effort to put themselves in a non-filthy position by washing and cleaning the mosque or room before prayer when that is possible. I assume you agree that if it was not possible, God would not be unduly perturbed.. or perhaps you are suggesting he might say to someone lost and alone in the wilds "sorry, come back when you've had a bath"?

I certainly do not think 'disgust' is God's problem to deal with.. my point is that it is absurd to think He would have a problem. If he did, a universe without either filth or disgust would have been easy enough to come up with. The suggestion He might is pure anthropomorphism.

[*Hana*]

I think you might want to consider the difference between 'rhetoric' and 'argument' before issuing spurious instruction.

The origins of Biblical ritual purity (Leviticus 13-15) are clearly health related; nothing to do with what God may, or may not, find 'disgusting'. As far as cleansing before prayer goes surely the reason for that is as a mark of respect for God, not because He might be offended by your appearance. People certainly find filth disgusting and hence it is common sense that they make the effort to put themselves in a non-filthy position by washing and cleaning the mosque or room before prayer when that is possible. I assume you agree that if it was not possible, God would not be unduly perturbed.. or perhaps you are suggesting he might say to someone lost and alone in the wilds "sorry, come back when you've had a bath"?

I certainly do not think 'disgust' is God's problem to deal with.. my point is that it is absurd to think He would have a problem. If he did, a universe without either filth or disgust would have been easy enough to come up with. The suggestion He might is pure anthropomorphism.

Blah, blah, blah

I said nothing about appearance. Get your facts straight before you respond. There is still a way to clean yourself without water. The topic was about God being everywhere. You want to believe He can be found in a toilet bowl that's your choice. It most certainly isn't mine. This is not something I'm going to argue about, believe what you want.

I said Rhetoric and that's exactly what I meant. You want to pray in filth, you want to be filthy, you want to believe God would hang around in filth...fill your boots. It has no effect on me whatsoever.

However, in Islam, we differ. Accept it or reject it and move on.

Tata

[Grace Seeker]

I am not more knowledgeable, brother, but that is absolutely my understanding as well.

To Graceseeker: This has nothing to do with limitations, but has everything to do with ummmm, surroundings. Associating human attributes to God is what limits Him. For example: Why would God need to be in the bathroom, cesspools, etc? It is not necessary. If something horrible happens to me in a bathroom, like maybe a slip and fall, and I pray for help, He doesn't have to be there to hear my prayers. The idea of God being "everywhere" just doesn't make sense. Inside a cat? Hanging around the sewage? No, no, it's not necessary. He is far above all that. :)

Peace,
Hana

Hana, I think you must have missed this part of what I said above:

For Christians, while some of these are gross and places that we would not want to live; God is greater. I guess I shouldn't really leave anyone thinking that God exists within these places either. In saying that God is greater, one of the things that I am saying is that God exists outside of time and space. God doesn't even exist in the sanctuary of a church or the temple that Solomon built for him.
:sl:

See, I specifically excluded the idea that you made of what I said that God hangs around in sewage. Just as you said:

He [God] doesn't have to be physically in a room to hear a prayer.

Of course God does NOT have to be physically present in a room. God isn't physically present any place, not in sewage and not in a church, temple or mosque either. God isn't a physical being; God is a spiritual being.

But, I wonder if I see a little bit of (coining a new word) "filth-ophobia" in your responses:

You may think God has no problem with disgust and filth and you may think it's HIS problem to deal with, but when He tells me to clean myself before prayer and pray in an area that is clean, etc., then I tend to think He has a problem with filth. Even Moses and Jesus cleaned themselves before prayer. So, save your rhetoric for another, non-Abrahamic faith...it doesn't apply here.

Kading: don't be an idiot. Try to keep up!! Who said there was something wrong with defecating and uninating? NO ONE. I said it is impure, unless of course you disagree that it isn't. In which case you need to attend health class 101. Next time try reading before making a ridiculous comment.

You see Kading is on target. It is something that is impure for us, because from it we can get diseases. God isn't going to be infected with a disease. He instructs us in these things for our sake. And then, because we are human beings living in a physical world, he encourages us in the use of the things from our world to help to bring us into a deeper relationship with God himself. For instance, there is nothing sacred about circumcision, except that God has made it so. There is nothing unholy about eating pork, except that God has asked us to avoid it in obedience. There is nothing special about the position we get in to pray, except that our very human conditioning has taught us that we prostrate ourselves before those who are greater than us, so of course we should prostrate ourselves before God who is greater than all. I dare say that if our human experiences was that we were conditioned to stand on our heads when addressing kings and other superiors in our lives, that we would find ourselves being taught to stand on our heads when we pray. (No, that is not a joke, and if you don't get the subtlety of how and why God might so direct us, then I suggest you don't call Kading an idiot.) God uses the physical things of the physical world that we know and see to teach us truths about the spiritual world which we cannot see and only know in part. So, God instructed his people to purify themselves as they approached God because the physical act of so doing would help to reming them of the importance of purity of heart and spirit as well. These things are called rituals. And in case you are not aware of it the rituals for cleansing oneself before prayer that Moses and Jesus would have practiced would have done nothing to make one truly physically clean, it used just a few drops of water more likely to make mud than to wash off any real dirt. But doing so was a ritual way of reminding oneself of the importance of coming clean before God, even of letting him cleanse one of spiritual dirt and living a spiritually clean life. (I thought this understanding still existed in Islam; if you have lost it, I grieve for that loss in your life.)


Again, Mustafa, as you and I talk, I find that we actually have much in common, we just all too often find different words to express it. I see now that what you meant above -- by "Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places." -- is not really all that different from what I believe.

Allah is closer to us than our in juglar vein, but that does not mean that He courses through my body, rather He knows our innermost thoughts and intentions.

I took the liberty of quoting "Fatima" from her answer to this question on another forum that may explain the Muslim understanding of Allah's Presence better than I did.

“And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then, I am indeed near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he calls on Me. So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright” {2:186}

COLOR=blue]He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth [/B]out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.

See how much that sounds like one of our Psalms:

Psalm 139:1-12
1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

So, I am in full agreement with Fatima when she writes:
Obviously one can easily understand these verses to mean, that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is near to you and to everyone equally since he is not in any location in particular. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is "everywhere" in the sense that there is no place that is without his presence. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is close to us through His complete knowledge.

Indeed, when she writes:
Now I am sure you are aware that our creator can not be bound in time and space so His presence is above every thing and We can not give a physical decription of His throne.
Is it not the essence of what I have already referred Hana to above: "In saying that God is greater, one of the things that I am saying is that God exists outside of time and space." The difference is that because I understand God to exist outside of time in space, that I also understand that God cannot be soiled by the things of this world. So, concerns that there is something untoward about associating God with things that we think of is filthy seems a bit anthropomorphizing with regard to God. Now, granted sometimes I do this -- I put on my "Sunday best" to go to worship, but that is as much for me and my attitude as it is for God. I don't think it matters to God if I worship in a pair of holy jeans if I am truly offering worship.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

There is a wonderful story from the life of Jesus that I think applies to this part of our overall discussion:

Mark 7
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

I understand this to mean that the type of "filth" that God is concerned with is not that which makes a man's hands dirty, but that which shows that his heart is impure. This "spiritual filth" is what can actually separate us from God. But, though revolting to us humans, something as simple as some soil on the hands while eating or even an entire cesspool, God is big enough to handle those sorts of things no problem. He doesn't even really have to deal with them because he lives outside of them.

[*Hana*]

Graceseeker:

I did miss that part of your post, Sorry about that.

The rest wasn't directed at you but I don't agree with your response at all. If you read what I said, it has nothing to do with filthophobia at all.

I said Kading was an idiot for responding TOTALLY inappropriately and had nothing to do with what I posted. If he wants to discuss the wonders of defecation and urination he can open another thread.

As I said, I'm not wasting my time arguing about such things. Anyone can believe as they please, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. Be clean, be dirty, pray filthy, pray in filth...whatever floats your boat. In Islam it is not acceptable to intentionally dismiss wudu. Period. (To clarify when I say "you" it's generic...not directed at you personally.)

Those who will continue to argue and ask "what if you're in the middle of nowhere and there's no water, and it's all dusty...blah, blah, blah" Islam takes care of that too.

Anyway, carry on, have fun and enjoy. Graceseeker and MustafaMc are having an interesting conversation and I shouldn't have interrupted.

Peace,
Hana

[Keltoi]

Grace Seeker posted the verses that I look to for my understanding of what is "filth" to God. It isn't dirt on your feet and hands that makes one "dirty" in the eyes of God, but the spiritual filth that we carry with us all the time, whether we took a 4 hour shower or not.

[Trumble]

I said Rhetoric and that's exactly what I meant.

If you did, you do not understand the distinction I tried to draw to your attention. However, as you seem incapable of producing any argument to support your point of view beyond ad hominem waffle I certainly agree there seems little point in discussing the point further.

[MustafaMc]

See, I specifically excluded the idea that you made of what I said that God hangs around in sewage. Just as you said:Of course God does have to be physically present in a room.

Did you mean to say "does NOT have to be physically present"?

God isn't physically present any place, not in sewage and not in a church, temple or mosque either. God isn't a physical being; God is a spiritual being.

I am not sure that we can say, "God is a spiritual being" any more than we can say that God said "Let us make man in Our image, according to our likeness". We don't know the nature of Allah, but He knows our nature. Quran 24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp is enclosed in crystal, the crystal is of a starlike brilliance, it is lit with the olive oil from a blessed olive tree which is neither eastern nor western, its very oil would almost be luminous though no fire touched it - as though all the means of increasing Light upon Light are provided - Allah guides to His Light whom He pleases. Allah cites such parables to make His message clear to the people; and Allah has knowledge of everything.
This does not sound like a "spirit" to me.

For instance, there is nothing sacred about circumcision, except that God has made it so. There is nothing unholy about eating pork, except that God has asked us to avoid it in obedience. There is nothing special about the position we get in to pray, except that our very human conditioning has taught us that we prostrate ourselves before those who are greater than us, so of course we should prostrate ourselves before God who is greater than all.

Another way of looking at these very points is that Allah is testing us to see if we are obedient or disobedient, submissive to His Will or self-serving.

So, God instructed his people to purify themselves as they approached God because the physical act of so doing would help to reming them of the importance of purity of heart and spirit as well.

I don't disagree with you on this point that inner cleanliness is very important

These things are called rituals. And in case you are not aware of it the rituals for cleansing oneself before prayer that Moses and Jesus would have practiced would have done nothing to make one truly physically clean, it used just a few drops of water more likely to make mud than to wash off any real dirt. But doing so was a ritual way of reminding oneself of the importance of coming clean before God, even of letting him cleanse one of spiritual dirt and living a spiritually clean life. (I thought this understanding still existed in Islam; if you have lost it, I grieve for that loss in your life.)

Again, inner cleanliness is very important. This reminds me of Quran 107:1-7 Have you seen the one who denies the Day of Judgment? He it is who drives away the orphan with harshness and does not encourage the feeding of the poor. So woe to those who offer Salah (prayers), but are neglectful of their Salah (offer Prayers but disregard the very purpose of establishing Salah - to have the fear of Allah and be mindful to the needs of other people); those who make a show of piety and refuse to share the necessities of life. Note that the portions in parenthese are explanatory interjections in the translation.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

.... carry on, have fun and enjoy. Graceseeker and MustafaMc are having an interesting conversation and I shouldn't have interrupted.

Peace,
Hana

i once thought of jumping in but did not :sunny:

[MustafaMc]

Grace Seeker on another thread said:

But I don't think that a true messenger of God would ever say some of the things about Jesus that Muhammad said. For all to good he did in bringing knowledge of God to Arab pagans, to then say that belief in Jesus, his divinity, his crucifixion and resurrection are shirk and would keep a person from God -- these statements as so far off the mark it is like he was temporarily playing for the other team. No prophet of the God of the Bible would do these things.

According to this quotation, it sounds like Christians worship the "God of the (NT) Bible" more specifically Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit. This is NOT Allah that we know through the Quran because Christians include Jesus in their concept of God. Therefore, the God that they worship is not the One God, Allah, that Muslims worship.

Quran 3:64 Say: "O People of the Book! Come to an agreement between us and you, that we shall worship none but Allah, that we shall assign no partner to Him, and that none of us shall take for lords beside Allah." If they turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we are those who surrender [to Allah]."

[jd7]

The correct answer is No. Although they both acknowledge “The Prophet” they disagree as to who/what the “prophet" is/was.

[Keltoi]

The correct answer is No. Although they both acknowledge “The Prophet” they disagree as to who/what the “prophet" is/was.

As I said before, if Christians and Muslims weren't worshipping the same God, then we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. It boils down to Jesus Christ in the end, that is the doctrine that divides us and it must be that way. Christians cannot and will not reject Christ as God, and Muslims cannot and will not accept Him as God. However, in the end we are talking about the same God. We simply understand Him much differently.

[MustafaMc]

As I said before, if Christians and Muslims weren't worshipping the same God, then we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

This is correct to an extent. There is but One God; however, our respective concepts of God are in fact very different.

It boils down to Jesus Christ in the end, that is the doctrine that divides us and it must be that way. Christians cannot and will not reject Christ as God, and Muslims cannot and will not accept Him as God. However, in the end we are talking about the same God. We simply understand Him much differently.

You clearly illustrated the primary point of contention. You and I both know what you mean here, but to an independent observer your post is completely illogical. To paraphrase:

Christians believe that Jesus is God, but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God; however, they both believe in the same God.

Can anyone come up with a more illogical statement than that?

[Grace Seeker]

There is but One God; however, our respective concepts of God are in fact very different. You clearly illustrated the primary point of contention. You and I both know what you mean here, but to an independent observer your post is completely illogical. To paraphrase:

Christians believe that Jesus is God, but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God; however, they both believe in the same God.

Can anyone come up with a more illogical statement than that?

And you've just given the best simple exposition on the hypostatic union that I have ever seen. It is a completely illogical statement, yet I think most people on this board know intuitively that each part of the statement is indeed true.

[MustafaMc]

Only a Christian would come back to the ludicrous statement, "Christians believe that Jesus is God, but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God; however, they both believe in the same God" with an equally ludicrous statement "most people on this board know intuitively that each part of the statement is indeed true". Clearly, the Quran teaches us that Jesus is not God, yet Christians persist in their disbelief in the Oneness of Allah. Although there is but One God, Christians associate others (Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him) with Allah in their worship. In Islam this is clearly shirk - the Unforgivable Sin if one dies in that state of disbelief. Repent before it is too late.

5:17 Indeed those have committed Kufr (rejected faith) who said, "God is the Messiah, son of Maryam." O Muhammad, ask them, "Who has the power to prevent Allah if He chose to destroy the Messiah the son of Maryam, his mother and all that is in the earth? Allah has the sovereignty over the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He pleases and has power over everything".

5:72 Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers.

5:116 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen.

9:30 The Jews say: "Uzair (Azra) is the son of Allah," and the Christians say: " Messiah (Christ) is the son of Allah." That is what they say with their mouths, imitating the sayings of the former unbelievers. May Allah destroy them! How perverted they are!

4:171 O People of the Book! Do not transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The Messiah, Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary) was no more than a Rasool of Allah and His Word "Be" which He bestowed on Maryam and a Spirit from Him which took the shape of a child in her womb. So believe in Allah and His Rasools and do not say: "Trinity"." Stop saying that, it is better for you. Allah is only One Deity. He is far above from the need of having a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the Earth. Allah Alone is sufficient for protection.

[YusufNoor]

And you've just given the best simple exposition on the hypostatic union that I have ever seen. It is a completely illogical statement, yet I think most people on this board know intuitively that each part of the statement is indeed true.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i would agree that the hypostatic union is a completely illogical idea, which proves that it cannot represent Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. True worship is not a trick question decided by necromancers supported by mysterious rituals.

there may be descriptions of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala that we don't understand fully, but Islam is completely logical; maybe not to those who absolutely refuse to see the truth, but completely logical nonetheless!

like i've stated before, there are similarities between Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala and the "father" part of the Christian trinity, as for God and Jesus it is strickly Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala and servant Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, Alaihe Salaam, which is VERY LOGICAL.

if one human could've been born without "original sin", then all can be...

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Only a Christian would come back to the ludicrous statement, "Christians believe that Jesus is God, but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God; however, they both believe in the same God" with an equally ludicrous statement "most people on this board know intuitively that each part of the statement is indeed true". Clearly, the Quran teaches us that Jesus is not God, yet Christians persist in their disbelief in the Oneness of Allah. Although there is but One God, Christians associate others (Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him) with Allah in their worship. In Islam this is clearly shirk - the Unforgivable Sin if one dies in that state of disbelief. Repent before it is too late.

What is wrong with my statement? Or with my coming back to your statement?

It is true what you said: Christians believe that Jesus is God.

It is also true: but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God;

And as I read this forum it seems that the last part of your statement is also true: however, they both believe in the same God.

You may choose to dispute that the last part of this is true, but I just went back and read through this thread. Here are the results.

Regarding the question which is the topic of this thread: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

Christians who answered in the affirmative -- 4

Christians who answered in the negative -- 0

Muslims who answered in the affirmative -- 9

Muslims who answered in the negative -- 3

Muslims who answered both Yes and No -- 3
(These are ones who, like yourself, initially said YES that Christians do worship the same God as Muslims because Christians do worship the God of Abraham, that is Christians do worship the God that Jesus worshipped and therefore that Muslims worshipped; yet also NO because in worshipping Jesus too Christians are adding associates or partners to God thus Christians are also worshipping different gods.)

Well, for those 13 people who understand that Christians and Muslims do worship the same God, yet for whom it is obvious that there are also different views with regard to Jesus, your statement rings true: Christians believe that Jesus is God, but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God; however, they both believe in the same God.

You may call it shirk. Yusuf may call it illogical. But the majority of us on this board (and not just Christians but Muslims too) that have posted a position on it have affirmed it.

[YusufNoor]

What is wrong with my statement? Or with my coming back to your statement?

It is true what you said: Christians believe that Jesus is God.

It is also true: but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God;

And as I read this forum it seems that the last part of your statement is also true: however, they both believe in the same God.

You may choose to dispute that the last part of this is true, but I just went back and read through this thread. Here are the results.

Regarding the question which is the topic of this thread: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

Christians who answered in the affirmative -- 4

Christians who answered in the negative -- 0

Muslims who answered in the affirmative -- 9

Muslims who answered in the negative -- 3

Muslims who answered both Yes and No -- 3
(These are ones who, like yourself, initially said YES that Christians do worship the same God as Muslims because Christians do worship the God of Abraham, that is Christians do worship the God that Jesus worshipped and therefore that Muslims worshipped; yet also NO because in worshipping Jesus too Christians are adding associates or partners to God thus Christians are also worshipping different gods.)

Well, for those 13 people who understand that Christians and Muslims do worship the same God, yet for whom it is obvious that there are also different views with regard to Jesus, your statement rings true: Christians believe that Jesus is God, but Muslims don't believe Jesus is God; however, they both believe in the same God.

i know quite a few Christians who don't believe that Jesus is god, only a somewhat lesser form such as His son or just a tiny part but definitely NOT equal to.

You may call it shirk. Yusuf may call it illogical. But the majority of us on this board (and not just Christians but Muslims too) that have posted a position on it have affirmed it.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,


as for:

Yusuf may call it illogical.]

i believe i said:

i would agree that the hypostatic union is a completely illogical idea,

we only equate Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala with the God of Irbahim, Alaihe Salaam, and with "the God that Jesus worshipped", but IN NO WAY would we equate Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala with His slave & servant Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam Alaihe Salaam.

just to clarify...

:w:

[MustafaMc]

An analogy for this discussion is color blindness. According to Wikipedia the series of bars on the left appear as red, orange, yellow, green blue and magenta to a person with normal vision, but to a color blind person the two series of bars are indistinguishable. For example, green and orange on the left series appear nearly identical to a color blind person, but to one with normal vision they are distinctly different colors.

To a Christian, Jesus and the Father are different persons (shades) of the same entity, but, to a Muslim, they are distinctly different entities (colors) with one being the servant of the Other. Can a normal sighted person ever prove to the color blind one that the image on the left is actually 6 distinct colors instead of shades of only 2 colors? What about vice versa for a color blind person to prove that they are really the same and indistinguishable? Likewise, can a Muslim ever prove to the Christian that Jesus and Allah are distinctly different entities? What about vice versa for a Christian to prove that they are really the same?

Honestly, these concepts about Jesus and Allah are fundamental to our respective faiths and one cannot change his understanding of these concept without changing his entire belief system - or religion. That "paradigm shift" is not likely to happen without Divine guidance, such as happened to me 26 years ago.

[Muezzin]

If two different religions both believe in one God, surely that God must be the same God? Simple mathematics. :p

[MustafaMc]

If two different religions both believe in one God, surely that God must be the same God? Simple mathematics. :p

From your perspective, do Christians believe in One God with Jesus being fully human and yet fully God?

[Muezzin]

From your perspective, do Christians believe in One God with Jesus being fully human and yet fully God?

I don't fully understand the concept of the Trinity. I was just injecting a little levity into proceedings. :)

[Grace Seeker]

An analogy for this discussion is color blindness. According to Wikipedia the series of bars on the left appear as red, orange, yellow, green blue and magenta to a person with normal vision, but to a color blind person the two series of bars are indistinguishable. For example, green and orange on the left series appear nearly identical to a color blind person, but to one with normal vision they are distinctly different colors.

To a Christian, Jesus and the Father are different persons (shades) of the same entity, but, to a Muslim, they are distinctly different entities (colors) with one being the servant of the Other. Can a normal sighted person ever prove to the color blind one that the image on the left is actually 6 distinct colors instead of shades of only 2 colors? What about vice versa for a color blind person to prove that they are really the same and indistinguishable? Likewise, can a Muslim ever prove to the Christian that Jesus and Allah are distinctly different entities? What about vice versa for a Christian to prove that they are really the same?

Honestly, these concepts about Jesus and Allah are fundamental to our respective faiths and one cannot change his understanding of these concept without changing his entire belief system - or religion. That "paradigm shift" is not likely to happen without Divine guidance, such as happened to me 26 years ago.

So, if you had two people, one who looked a a flag, said it was one flag but made up of three fabrics with colors red, orange and green and another that said it was one flag and not to associate different fabrics with it, which person would you suspect is color blind and which one is not?

[MustafaMc]

So, if you had two people, one who looked a a flag, said it was one flag but made up of three fabrics with colors red, orange and green and another that said it was one flag and not to associate different fabrics with it, which person would you suspect is color blind and which one is not?

That is the opposite, but, equally valid, way of looking at it. The point is, however, that they are still not seeing exactly the same thing.

Even assuming normal vision, if one said that the flag is a 3'X5' sheet of fabric and another said no, the flag is a 3'x5' sheet of fabric, a 15' aluminum pole, and a rope on a pulley, which would be correctly describing the flag? Is the flag pole an essential part of a flag? What about a flag draped over a coffin, or hanging flat on the side of a building?

[Seeker of Peace]

I am a Christian and believe that there is only one god. I also believe God tries to communicate with people in many ways because people learn and pay attention in many ways.

Jewish people have Yahweh (God) plus they have prophets and the Torah.

Muslims have Allah and Allah’s prophet Mohamed. Islam also has the Koran, which was revealed to Mohamed by Allah (God).

Christians believe in one god and have the Bible that contains the old and new testaments. Christians believe in Jesus, who is part of God and called the Son of God.

Many people ask a valid question; How can a Christian who worships God believe in the Holy Spirit and believe in Jesus and still say they believe in one god?

Here is the answer; A man can be a father to his children, a husband to his wife, and a son to his father. A man can be a friend, a boss, and an employee. To different people a man can be different things, or one man can be many things to people he knows and communicate with them in different ways. God communicates to us in many ways too. God is all things and all powerful and placing human limits on God is not wise. I believe Jesus is part of God and my savior. All who say they are Christians, truly believe in Jesus and what he did for all of us are saved and will be with God.

Muslims, Christians, and Jews who truly pursue worship of God, seek a relationship with God, work for God and struggle against sin will be with God.

God pursues us with his books, which are the Torah, Bible, and the Koran. God weeps when his children make war on each other for human reasons. Fighting among God’s religions or sects within the individual religions distracts us away from God. Peace does not distract us from God and helps us to focus on serving God (Allah, Yahweh).

God bless all who hear and follow the one true God. Peace be with you.

[Grace Seeker]

That is the opposite, but, equally valid, way of looking at it. The point is, however, that they are still not seeing exactly the same thing.

No, they are not seeing exactly the same thing. But the question is not about whether they see exactly the same thing, but (1) if they are talking about exactly the same thing and (2) which one of them as closer to the truer perception of what they do see?

Even assuming normal vision, if one said that the flag is a 3'X5' sheet of fabric and another said no, the flag is a 3'x5' sheet of fabric, a 15' aluminum pole, and a rope on a pulley, which would be correctly describing the flag? Is the flag pole an essential part of a flag? What about a flag draped over a coffin, or hanging flat on the side of a building?

It sounds like they both correctly described the flag, but the second also described ancillary items associated with but not actually a part of the flag.

The first analogy seems to be to be the difference between Christianity and either Judaism or Islam. The second analogy seems to be what happens when people move from talking about God to talking about religion and the manner by which one must worship God (i.e. standing, sitting, bowing, kneeling, prostrating, in a temple, in a church, in a mosque, outside, facing east, facing an altar, facing the rising/setting sun, with trumpet and timbrel, with songs, without music, wearing a certain garmet, using special words or rubrics). Get focused on enough of this other stuff and one can begin to think they doing them right is the same thing as worshipping God. While those things might have some importance, one can still have all of that "right" and if one's heart is not centered on God, one has not truly worshipped God. And vice versa, one can do all of that "wrong" yet if one has one's heart truly focused on God, then one's worship of God is just as pure and righteous.

[MustafaMc]

I am reading a book where William Ellery Channing is quoted as saying, "We do, then with all earnestness, though without reproaching our brethern, protest against the irrational and unscriptural doctrine of the Trinity. 'To us,' as to the Apostle and the primitive Christians, 'there is One God, even the Father.' With Jesus, we worship the Father, as the only living and true God. We are astonished, that any man can read the New Testament, and avoid the conviction, that the Father alone is God."

How is this understanding by an American Unitarian minister (1780-1842) different from some of the posts on this thread?

[Grace Seeker]

I am reading a book where William Ellery Channing is quoted as saying, "We do, then with all earnestness, though without reproaching our brethern, protest against the irrational and unscriptural doctrine of the Trinity. 'To us,' as to the Apostle and the primitive Christians, 'there is One God, even the Father.' With Jesus, we worship the Father, as the only living and true God. We are astonished, that any man can read the New Testament, and avoid the conviction, that the Father alone is God."

How is this understanding by an American Unitarian minister (1780-1842) different from some of the posts on this thread?

It is not different than some of the posts in this thread. It is also not something that I would say is representative of the true Christian faith, but very much outside of it.