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MTAFFI
03-01-2007, 06:49 PM
From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?
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AbuAbdallah
03-01-2007, 07:05 PM
Islam has existed since the time of Adam. All of the Prophets were Muslim, and none of them worshiped partners with Allah, they only worshiped Allah alone.
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Abdul Fattah
03-01-2007, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?
There is some disagreement on this matter. One might claim as you say, while others might claim that those who don't believe because they do not know anything about Islam aren't really kufars since technically they can't "disbelief" in something they don't know. I don't know, Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
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MTAFFI
03-01-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
Islam has existed since the time of Adam. All of the Prophets were Muslim, and none of them worshiped partners with Allah, they only worshiped Allah alone.
really? I find this a little hard to believe, especially since history proves otherwise... Jesus was not a Muslim either in fact none of the prophets other than Muhammad claimed to be Muslim
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MTAFFI
03-01-2007, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by steve
There is some disagreement on this matter. One might claim as you say, while others might claim that those who don't believe because they do not know anything about Islam aren't really kufars since technically they can't "disbelief" in something they don't know. I don't know, Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
this makes sense to me
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Talha777
03-01-2007, 08:56 PM
really? I find this a little hard to believe, especially since history proves otherwise... Jesus was not a Muslim either in fact none of the prophets other than Muhammad claimed to be Muslim
This is completely false and ridiculous. First of all what historical document besides the Holy Quran as a primary source gives the history of Adam? The answer is the Bible. Ask any neutral non-religious historian if he regards the account of Adam and Eve in the Bible as "history", and he will without a doubt say no.

Islam as a general religion was always there, its main principle being submission to Allah. However, in terms of shariat it has been evolving and changing until its completion with the last Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa salam) in accordance with the wisdom and "master plan" of Almighty Allah Tala.

The words Islam and Muslim, however, were not always there as these are Arabic words, and the Prophets of old spoke different languages, for example, Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) spoke Aramaic as the lingua franca vernacular, and understood Hebrew for religious purposes.

However, the word Islam in its Aramaic equivalent (shlam) is mentioned in several places in the Bible.
http://www.answering-christianity.co...he_teacher.pdf
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AmarFaisal
03-01-2007, 09:05 PM
Islam is the belief in Allah and his holy prophets (Alaihum Salam) and angels and the day of judgement. From Adam(Alaihi Salam) upto Prophet Muhammad(SAW) all preached this same msg. So all who followed these believes "There is no God but Allah" were Muslims in their own times and followed Islam(though the same Arabic words were not used to denote their religion).Whenever there was a subsequent gap b/w generations and the msg of Allah was lost a Prophet was sent to them to revive the Religion and msg of Allah.
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- Qatada -
03-01-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
really? I find this a little hard to believe, especially since history proves otherwise... Jesus was not a Muslim either in fact none of the prophets other than Muhammad claimed to be Muslim

A muslim is someone who submits to God. :) All the prophets called to the worship of God, without associating partners [i.e. idols, human legislations etc.] with Him. This was the call of all the prophets of God, and anyone who submitted to Him, submitted to God, hence he/she was a muslim. Including the prophet himself.

The prophets came with the message that no soul bears the burden of another, and that we are all responsible for our own actions. That we will be brought back to life by God and be judged on all that we did in this life. Those who submitted to God and did good will be rewarded with Paradise, and those who rejected God and His message will be punished for taking God's message in jest.


And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. [Qur'an 14:4]
This is even proven in the bible many times when Jesus was ordered to:
“Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel!” Matthew 10:6]
Whereas Muhammad (peace be upon him) is being told:

"Say: 'O mankind! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth." (Qur'an 7:158)
Regards. :)
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MTAFFI
03-01-2007, 09:57 PM
so are all of you saying that basically every religion is actually Islam? Jesus was a self proclaimed Jew, but since he submitted to God then he was actually a Muslim. To me this seems rather ridiculous, I too submit to God, however I am not a Muslim. Seems to me like it is a play on words, by this I mean I could create a new religion called Devotism and say that every religion in the world is actually mine since every religion calls on its followers to devote themselves to God. Basically what I am saying, is you cant say "Oh everyone before Muhammad was a Muslim" just because Muhammad decided to name his religion (or the religion God called on him to deliver to people, depending on what you believe) after a word that happened to mean to submit to God. It is just to general, also back to my original question what of the people who lived before these times of prophets and believed in multiple Gods on mountains, or the Indians who believed in Gods of the elements and prayed to the elements? What of these people, just because they never encountered a prophet do they automatically go to hell because they didnt believe in the same teachings as yourself? Or is it as Steve says above, that if you dont read the Quran you are actually not a disbeliever. If this is the case then I ask, what difference does it make then what religion you follow as long as you worship God or what you believe to be God, and why would anyone go to hell over their religion?

Personally I dont believe anyone goes to hell over their religion, and I would never label another person with an ugly name like "Kuffar" or label another group of people as "hellbound" just because they didnt follow my religion, nor would I follow a religion that did such.
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Trumble
03-01-2007, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
and I would never label another person with an ugly name like "Kuffar"
I must admit I don't like that word much, simply because of the way it was used in connection with the slave trade and in apartheid South Africa.
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Talha777
03-01-2007, 10:16 PM
so are all of you saying that basically every religion is actually Islam? Jesus was a self proclaimed Jew, but since he submitted to God then he was actually a Muslim. To me this seems rather ridiculous, I too submit to God, however I am not a Muslim. Seems to me like it is a play on words, by this I mean I could create a new religion called Devotism and say that every religion in the world is actually mine since every religion calls on its followers to devote themselves to God. Basically what I am saying, is you cant say "Oh everyone before Muhammad was a Muslim" just because Muhammad decided to name his religion (or the religion God called on him to deliver to people, depending on what you believe) after a word that happened to mean to submit to God.
No it is not a play on words. Your premise that you submit to God is also false. Submitting to the will of Allah in different times manifested itself in different ways, because of the will of Allah for mankind has been evolving until its completion with the Khatam-ul-Anbiya, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (salallahu alaihi wa salam).

Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) was sent to the people of Israel. If they accepted him as their Messiah, than they are considered as Muslims. They were under the obligation to follow the Gospel revealed from Allah. So they submitted to Allah in accordance from what He expected from them.

What Allah expects from you and I, however, is different. He expects that we accept His last Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) and accept the Holy Quran. If we submit to His new expectations, than we are Muslims, if not, than we are disbelievers.

also back to my original question what of the people who lived before these times of prophets and believed in multiple Gods on mountains, or the Indians who believed in Gods of the elements and prayed to the elements? What of these people, just because they never encountered a prophet do they automatically go to hell because they didnt believe in the same teachings as yourself? Or is it as Steve says above, that if you dont read the Quran you are actually not a disbeliever. If this is the case then I ask, what difference does it make then what religion you follow as long as you worship God or what you believe to be God, and why would anyone go to hell over their religion?

Personally I dont believe anyone goes to hell over their religion, and I would never label another person with an ugly name like "Kuffar" or label another group of people as "hellbound" just because they didnt follow my religion, nor would I follow a religion that did such.
To answer your "original" question, you need to know the story of Noah (alaihi salam). Noah (alaihi salam) was sent for all humanity as well, but of course in his time humanity was still small and in its primitive development. Most of humanity, however, rejected Noah (alaihi salam), so Allah destroyed them all by a worldwide flood except for the Muslims and the animals. Allah Tala also revealed a shariat (divine law) to Noah (alaihi salam) which was binding on his followers. Thereafter, humanity began to expand into tribes and nations throughout the world. So Allah would send different Messengers and Prophets to update His laws and commandments for them separately. The Holy Quran says:

إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا وَإِن مِّنْ أُمَّةٍ إِلَّا خلَا فِيهَا نَذِيرٌ

Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past). [35:24]

So every nation had a Warner sent to them, only a small fraction of them have been mentioned by name in the Holy Quran. If people in the past worshipped idols instead of Allah, it is because they turned away from the teachings of their Prophets. Even the Israelities, who had dozens of Prophets sent for them because they were an exalted nation, would many times abandon their divine laws and indulge in idol worship. Why, even in lifetime Moses (alaihi salam) they shamelessly created the "golden calf" and worshipped it! So your point about Indians worshipping the elements, nature, etc., is not valid.

I don't know who Steve is, but he is incorrect to say that people who reject the Quran are not disbelievers, even if they haven't read it. Islam is incumbant upon all humanity, whether they have read the Quran or not.
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AbuAbdallah
03-02-2007, 05:39 AM
so are all of you saying that basically every religion is actually Islam?
NO. We are saying that Islam is the ONLY religion that ALL of the Prophets preached, including Jesus. We don't believe in the bible.

also back to my original question what of the people who lived before these times of prophets and believed in multiple Gods on mountains, or the Indians who believed in Gods of the elements and prayed to the elements? What of these people, just because they never encountered a prophet do they automatically go to hell because they didnt believe in the same teachings as yourself?
First of all, there weren't any people before Prophets because Adam was the first human being who was also a Prophet. Secondly, Prophets were sent to every nation. As for those that never heard of Islam they will be faced with tests on the Day of Judgment that will determine whether or not they will go to Heaven or Hell. Allah is the most Just being in the Universe, there will be no injustices on the Day of Judgment (i.e. people being thrown in Hell for not hearing about Islam).
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snakelegs
03-02-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Personally I dont believe anyone goes to hell over their religion, and I would never label another person with an ugly name like "Kuffar" or label another group of people as "hellbound" just because they didnt follow my religion, nor would I follow a religion that did such.
i share your feelings, BUT
more than one christian on here has said that salvation is based on belief (some say belief alone and others say belief + good works). in any case, you must be a christian to go to heaven.
so i'm confused about your paragraph above. do you disagree that you must be a christian to go to heaven? almost all christians seem to hold this belief.
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Malaikah
03-02-2007, 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Personally I dont believe anyone goes to hell over their religion, and I would never label another person with an ugly name like "Kuffar" or label another group of people as "hellbound" just because they didnt follow my religion, nor would I follow a religion that did such.
Then why are you a Christian?:?
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Pygoscelis
03-02-2007, 10:18 AM
Like Malaikah and Snakelegs above I have to wonder about your paragraph MTAFFI. Isn't the whole basis of Jesus that he came to save you Christians from hell and that the only way to God is through accepting him as your lord and saviour?

Doesn't that mean all of us who don't accept Jesus or believe in God are automatically hell bound?
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Kathleena
03-02-2007, 11:04 AM
Actually, the Qur'an says that all muslims will go to hell as well:


According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell. :/
Sucks for humanity, huh?

Oh how rude of me, forgetting to quote:

No one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; That for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were god-fearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees.
-- Sura 19:71-72
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IceQueen~
03-02-2007, 11:18 AM
Suran 19 ayahs 71-2 :"There is not one of you who will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished.
Then we shall save those who used to fear Allah and were dutiful to Him. And we shall leave the wrongdoers therein humbled to their knees"


honey it's talking about passing over hell not 'in' Hell- on the Day of Judgement everyone will have to pass over the bridge which is over hell- the believers will pass over unharmed and the wrongdoers will fall into Hell
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Malaikah
03-02-2007, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by Kathleena
Actually, the Qur'an says that all muslims will go to hell as well:

According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell. :/
Sucks for humanity, huh?
LOL. How does everyone passing over hell translating into all Muslims will go to hell?

Many, many Muslims will enter paradise without even being put on trial, let alone being forced into hell fire. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Kathleena
No one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; That for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were god-fearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees. -- Sura 19:71-72
Your translation is terrible. which anti-Islamic website did you get this from?
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YusufNoor
03-02-2007, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?
Assalamu Alaikum MTAFFI,

i'm a bit of a n00b but, let me try this and i hope, Insha' Allah, not to offend anyone.

Muslims aren't supposed to run around and tell everyone that they are going to hell if they aren't Muslim as only Allah(SWT) is "Maliki Yawmid Deen", that is" the Owner of the Day of Judgement (which actually has a plethora of other meanings); therefore Allah(SWT) and Allah ALONE will decide who goes/remains in the hellfire.

you can be a practicing Muslim and do EVERYTHING that a Muslim is supposed to do BUT if you do them without the right intentions or with arrogance or hypocrisy, then the deeds aren't even counted as having been done. OR you may do all of those things correctly BUT, and Allah forbid, you abandon your faith before you die and that is MUCH WORSE than never having believed...

a non-Muslim may have never understood Islam (and you MUST understand it to revert) for whatever reasons but their INTENT for all the good things that they did pleased Allah(SWT) so they get rewarded and as Allah(SWT) is the SOLE JUDGE, HE may award certain [seemingly] small good deeds a thousand fold and that person gets Jannah(Heaven).

as for previous Ummahs, those that followed their prophets PROPERLY are in good company, as in "submitting to Allah(SWT)'s Prophets" they are [what we now call] true Muslims.

the Messenger of Allah(SWT), Peace be upon him, came to "perfect manners" and to "enjoin good and forbid evil". IF that's NOT what you see when you view Muslims/Islam (and what are the odds today!), then the Ummah of the Rasulullah(pbuh) has some serious explaining to do on Judgement Day.

in other words... WE ARE probably in MORE trouble than non believers because we've tarnished such a beautiful religion and have failed utterly to follow the example of the Messenger of Allah(SWT), peace be upon him...

just my thoughts...

:w:

Yusuf
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aamirsaab
03-02-2007, 01:12 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?
I've said it before and i'll say it again. At the end of the day, God decides who enters heaven or hell.
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-02-2007, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?
:salamext:

islam was the religion of Adam (peace be upon him) therefore it existed from the beginning of time and kept getting distorted along the line to form other branches such as judaism/christianity etc.

However there are those that never heard the message of islam and for them i heard they will have a trial at the day of judgement (heard it from awlaki) and this trial is exclusive for such a people.
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Eesa Abdullah
03-02-2007, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777

This is completely false and ridiculous. First of all what historical document besides the Holy Quran as a primary source gives the history of Adam? The answer is the Bible. Ask any neutral non-religious historian if he regards the account of Adam and Eve in the Bible as "history", and he will without a doubt say no.

Islam as a general religion was always there, its main principle being submission to Allah. However, in terms of shariat it has been evolving and changing until its completion with the last Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa salam) in accordance with the wisdom and "master plan" of Almighty Allah Tala.

The words Islam and Muslim, however, were not always there as these are Arabic words, and the Prophets of old spoke different languages, for example, Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) spoke Aramaic as the lingua franca vernacular, and understood Hebrew for religious purposes.

However, the word Islam in its Aramaic equivalent (shlam) is mentioned in several places in the Bible.
http://www.answering-christianity.co...he_teacher.pdf
indeed. All the Prophets were Muslims however, they did not use the Arabic equivalent for the word.When Muhammad (saw) came the terms was new, but the idea was perpetual.

WaAllaahualam

wasalaam
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MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
No it is not a play on words. Your premise that you submit to God is also false. Submitting to the will of Allah in different times manifested itself in different ways, because of the will of Allah for mankind has been evolving until its completion with the Khatam-ul-Anbiya, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (salallahu alaihi wa salam).
First of all, you can believe it is not a play on words, but if this were the case why was it not always called "Islam"? Second I do submit to God, I will do anything he asks of me without question, the difference here is I am not Muslim and just as you do not accept my views as a Christian, I dont have to believe that Muhammad was the last prophet or a prophet at all for that matter.
Originally Posted by Talha777
Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) was sent to the people of Israel. If they accepted him as their Messiah, than they are considered as Muslims. They were under the obligation to follow the Gospel revealed from Allah. So they submitted to Allah in accordance from what He expected from them.
Yes and they are called Christians, not Muslims

Originally Posted by Talha777
What Allah expects from you and I, however, is different. He expects that we accept His last Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) and accept the Holy Quran. If we submit to His new expectations, than we are Muslims, if not, than we are disbelievers.
Being a Christian I believe in Jesus's word and he did not mention (as far as I know) that there was to be another prophet, in fact I believe he said that he would return for the end of days. So why would I listen to what Muhammad said?


Originally Posted by Talha777
So every nation had a Warner sent to them, only a small fraction of them have been mentioned by name in the Holy Quran. If people in the past worshipped idols instead of Allah, it is because they turned away from the teachings of their Prophets. Even the Israelities, who had dozens of Prophets sent for them because they were an exalted nation, would many times abandon their divine laws and indulge in idol worship. Why, even in lifetime Moses (alaihi salam) they shamelessly created the "golden calf" and worshipped it! So your point about Indians worshipping the elements, nature, etc., is not valid.
If there were all of the prophets, then why is there so much evidence that people worshipped nature and other idols? Also why would the Quran and the Bible not mention all of them? Are they all not equally important?

Originally Posted by Talha777
I don't know who Steve is, but he is incorrect to say that people who reject the Quran are not disbelievers, even if they haven't read it. Islam is incumbant upon all humanity, whether they have read the Quran or not.
Steve is someone who replied above, and this is what I disagree with and the reason I started this thread. Thank you for your response
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MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i share your feelings, BUT
more than one christian on here has said that salvation is based on belief (some say belief alone and others say belief + good works). in any case, you must be a christian to go to heaven.
so i'm confused about your paragraph above. do you disagree that you must be a christian to go to heaven? almost all christians seem to hold this belief.
I am not what would be considered a typical Christian, I have read the bible and several other religious books. I think each religion that I have read into has alot to offer and the people practicing these religions are doing what they believe they need to do to enter heaven. I do not reject or accept, I just take what I can from the knowledge given to me and apply it to my life. I also do not believe that Jesus was actually God, I believe he was an extension of God to bring Gods word to everyone and die for the sins of man. So anyways I do not believe that because someone is not a Christian they will go to hell, in fact I believe if a person believes in God and does good for himself and the people around him he will actually be rewarded in the next life.

Also just so you know the Quran is the next book on my list to read
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MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

I've said it before and i'll say it again. At the end of the day, God decides who enters heaven or hell.
I very much agree with this
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- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
First of all, you can believe it is not a play on words, but if this were the case why was it not always called "Islam"? Second I do submit to God, I will do anything he asks of me without question, the difference here is I am not Muslim and just as you do not accept my views as a Christian, I dont have to believe that Muhammad was the last prophet or a prophet at all for that matter.

It was Islaam because it was submission towards God, thats what all the prophets called to. :) So anyone who submitted was a muslim. And you do have to accept Muhammad (peace be upon him) the same way the jews needed to accept Jesus. It's not a pick and mix, but we take the whole package.


Yes and they are called Christians, not Muslims
Maybe you could prove that with some evidence? :)


Being a Christian I believe in Jesus's word and he did not mention (as far as I know) that there was to be another prophet, in fact I believe he said that he would return for the end of days. So why would I listen to what Muhammad said?
We also believe he will return on the end days and slay the anti-christ. Jesus is the messiah and the part in the bible when it says that there will be others claiming to be false messiah's is true, because the anti-christ will also claim to be a messiah. Muhammad (peace be upon him) never was the messiah, because that was Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.)


If there were all of the prophets, then why is there so much evidence that people worshipped nature and other idols?

That's the catch. All other ways of life associate partners with God whether these partners are stone idols, or man made systems. So God sends messengers to call people to the obedience of God instead of worshipping man made objects [idols, laws etc.] That's why you hear so much controversy about muslims not wanting to vote in man made laws and philosophies.

Also, shirk which is the most heinous of sins in islaam doesn't simply mean to reject the fact that God exists. But shirk is to associate partners with God, and this is how satan decieved the people to believe that they should pray to a stone idol, to a pious human [i.e. a saint] in order to connect with God, yet God is the All Hearing so why doesn't the person pray to Him alone? This is where the majority of mankind has deviated, because their forefathers did this. The forefathers who disobeyed the Messenger of God.


Also why would the Quran and the Bible not mention all of them? Are they all not equally important?
Because there are 124,000 prophets as stated by the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon them.) And there's no real reason to mention all of them and God only relates to us the stories of those prophets which may affect our lives. I.e. Prophet Noah for his patience, Prophet Abraham for his sacrifices, Prophet Joseph as an example for the youth, Prophet Moses for his striving hard with his people to gain their freedom, Prophet Jesus in his patience when there were so much enemies against him etc. All the prophets are an example for us. So God relates to us the stories through His final messenger (peace be upon him.)


Steve is someone who replied above, and this is what I disagree with and the reason I started this thread. Thank you for your response

Brother ibnabdulHakim already stated earlier that those who never recieved the message will be trialled on the day of resurrection to see if they are worthy of paradise or not.

However, those who recieve the message clearly and still turn away are liable to God's punishment - as they had the chance to submit to God but they chose to turn away.



And God knows best.


Regards.
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paarsurrey
03-02-2007, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?

The Muslim Prayer Surah Al-Fatihah or the Opener mentions four basic attributes of GodAllahYHWH; one of them is Malik-e Yomuddin or the Master of the Day of Judgment, so finally He would decide, we humans cannot interfere with His decision. It is He who would decide who would go to heaven or hell. GodAllahYHWH is kind and gracious; one who died before Muhammad (SAW), so naturally his fate would be decided according to the truth of his time, the religion/Book he followed faithfully. This is clearly mentioned in Quran. Even one to whom the message of Islam has not yet reached for no fault of his, he would be excused.
Thanks
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vpb
03-02-2007, 03:30 PM
selam alaikum,


honey it's talking about passing over hell not 'in' Hell- on the Day of Judgement everyone will have to pass over the bridge which is over hell- the believers will pass over unharmed and the wrongdoers will fall into Hell
as far as I know, all people will see hell, basiclly HELL will be demonstrated to everyone wether he/she is a muslim or not. Hell has 7 doors, and those 7 doors will be used only for non-muslims, basiclly only non-muslims will enter HELL throught its doors, and every door is for different type of non-believer. Muslim don't enter HELL through its doors but they enter it by falling from the bridge of Sirat (the only way to paradise), those who are sucessfull will pass it. and I think there is a hadith which tells that there will be muslims who will pass the bridge of sirat (which is the only way to paradise) in speed of light, speed of horse etc etc, till to the lowest one, who that person will pas it so slow (dragging himself) that when he reaches the doors of jannah, he will be left almost nothing, and then he will be cleaned etc etc and then enter jannah.

if I made a mistake somewhere, please correct me.
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MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It was Islaam because it was submission towards God, thats what all the prophets called to. :) So anyone who submitted was a muslim. And you do have to accept Muhammad (peace be upon him) the same way the jews needed to accept Jesus. It's not a pick and mix, but we take the whole package.
So what if you submit, but do not accept Muhammad, and live by the word of Jesus?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Maybe you could prove that with some evidence? :)
I am not sure what you need proof of, a Christian is someone who follows Christ. If I misunderstood your request please let me know and I will do my best to provide evidence.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
We also believe he will return on the end days and slay the anti-christ. Jesus is the messiah and the part in the bible when it says that there will be others claiming to be false messiah's is true, because the anti-christ will also claim to be a messiah. Muhammad (peace be upon him) never was the messiah, because that was Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.)
I agree with this

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
That's the catch. All other ways of life associate partners with God whether these partners are stone idols, or man made systems. So God sends messengers to call people to the obedience of God instead of worshipping man made objects [idols, laws etc.] That's why you hear so much controversy about muslims not wanting to vote in man made laws and philosophies.
But if all of these prophets were sent are you saying that in many cases people didnt listen?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Also, shirk which is the most heinous of sins in islaam doesn't simply mean to reject the fact that God exists. But shirk is to associate partners with God, and this is how satan decieved the people to believe that they should pray to a stone idol, to a pious human [i.e. a saint] in order to connect with God, yet God is the All Hearing so why doesn't the person pray to Him alone? This is where the majority of mankind has deviated, because their forefathers did this. The forefathers who disobeyed the Messenger of God.
This I kind of agree with and kind of dont, in Catholicism there are many patron saints. You dont just pray to them at night like you would God, but you ask them to help you in life with things, kind of like an angel, but the prayer type is not the same. There is a prayer to the mother of Jesus, but it is not the same as praying to God, it is thanking her for doing what she did. It is a complicated thing and very hard to explain for me, however to the point, I pray to no thing but God.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Brother ibnabdulHakim already stated earlier that those who never recieved the message will be trialled on the day of resurrection to see if they are worthy of paradise or not.

However, those who recieve the message clearly and still turn away are liable to God's punishment - as they had the chance to submit to God but they chose to turn away.
And God knows best.
Regards.
So if I read the Quran, but I do not recieve the message the way I do from the bible, am I then condemned to hell? Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?
Reply

IceQueen~
03-02-2007, 03:38 PM
"...Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, or a strong wind, or fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe wthout any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches and some will down into Hell. The last person will cross as if being dragged (over the bridge)..." Sahih Bukhari
Reply

Ayesha Rana
03-02-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI

Also just so you know the Quran is the next book on my list to read
Please bro do us a favour. When u read the Qur\'an, read it with an open heart without prejudice and i hope u benefit from it. May Allah guide u Insha\'Allah
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 03:52 PM
So what if you submit, but do not accept Allah, and live by the word of Jesus?
:) i think you mixed Christianity with Islam, bc in Islam , Jesus(Isa a.s) is a prophet, he was sent with the gospel (injeel), and he called to oneness of Allah, same as all other prophets. but the question you stating is from a christian point of you, because you believe the Jesus is God, but from our point of view, if you don't accept Allah, then basiclly you have rejected God, which leads to rejection of many other things. so in order for a person to submit to God he needs to recongnize Allah as the only one worthy of worship, one absolute God, recognize all his prophets (from Adam to Muhammed), his books, , angels etc. . so for instance, if you say that Moses a.s was not a prophet, then basiclly you reject what God told you , and you not submitting to God anymore.

So if I read the Quran, but I do not recieve the message the way I do from the bible, am I then condemned to hell? Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?
If you get the message then you are classified as "He has recieved the message", but as for the
Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?
the thing is that you need to open the heart and ask God for his guidance. Because it is you who decides wether to accept the message or not, bc Allah swt said that he made clear false from truth. so it's you who studies them and decide. because none of us is able to guide people, we can just deliver the message and Allah swt is the only who guides people, even the Prophet Muhammed saws could NOT guide people, as Allah swt says in the Quran , he (Muhammed saws) was sent only as a warner, just to warn people.. So if you get the message but not open the heart, and think about what it says, then it's obvious that you will not accept it. after u get the message from us, then it is between you and Allah swt.
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 03:53 PM
"...Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, or a strong wind, or fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe wthout any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches and some will down into Hell. The last person will cross as if being dragged (over the bridge)..." Sahih Bukhari
jazakallah for the hadith.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana
Please bro do us a favour. When u read the Qur\'an, read it with an open heart without prejudice and i hope u benefit from it. May Allah guide u Insha\'Allah
I will read it as I have read anything else, my mind is always open and I will try to pull everything that is good from this book. I believe every book that was written with God in mind can benefit everyone, no matter what your religious background is
Reply

IceQueen~
03-02-2007, 03:56 PM
that's nice masha allah^
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
if you don't accept Allah, then basiclly you have rejected God, which leads to rejection of many other things.
that was a typo, I had Allah on the mind but meant to type Muhammad, sorry about that
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vpb
03-02-2007, 04:09 PM
that was a typo, I had Allah on the mind but meant to type Muhammad, sorry about that
sorry, i dont get what u're saying :D
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- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
So what if you submit, but do not accept Allah, and live by the word of Jesus?

You accept Jesus by accepting Allaah, and please don't be confused with the name Allaah because even christian arabs call God - Allaah. :) So to actually accept Jesus is to accept his message of calling to the worship of our own Creator without associating partners with Him.


I am not sure what you need proof of, a Christian is someone who follows Christ. If I misunderstood your request please let me know and I will do my best to provide evidence.
I meant is there any evidence from your scripture that the followers of Jesus called themselves christians? Because theres proof in our scripture that Jesus son of Mary's disciples called themselves muslims as they submitted themselves by obeying the Messenger Jesus son of Mary, hence they were obedient to God.


This is what is said in the Qur'an:


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit [Gabriel] and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

And [remember] when I inspired to the disciples, "Believe in Me and in My messenger Jesus." They said, "We have believed, so bear witness that indeed we are Muslims [in submission to Allah ]."

[Qur'an 5: 110-111]

I agree with this

That's kool. :)


But if all of these prophets were sent are you saying that in many cases people didnt listen?

Yes, that's why you normally hear that God sends messengers to their people - alot of the time - the people choose to disobey the prophet out of arrogance because they don't want to leave the way of their forefathers.

How did these people follow the way of their forefathers if Adam was the first father? That's when you refer to the story of Prophet Noah, and how satan made the people erect statues of pious people - these pious people reminded them of the times when everyone followed the true message of God. However, when these people erected the statues - their generations died and satan came to them again and made them believe that their forefathers erected these as intercessors between them and God [because they were pious people.] Which is associating partners with God - which is the unforgiveable sin, unless the person repents and turns to obedience to God and His messenger before death approaches them.

You can read the story of Prophet Noah from here insha'Allaah (God willing):
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html


The one's who were warned and turned away - God punished them because they have turned away from the purpose of their own creation. So you see that all these calamities which hit the earth like hurricane's, earthquakes etc. are because of the people's sins, yet still God is prepared to forgive them if they turn to Him in obedience.

However, those who turn obey the Messenger and be obedient - God sends upon them countless blessings in this world and the hereafter. :)


This I kind of agree with and kind of dont, in Catholicism there are many patron saints. You dont just pray to them at night like you would God, but you ask them to help you in life with things, kind of like an angel, but the prayer type is not the same. There is a prayer to the mother of Jesus, but it is not the same as praying to God, it is thanking her for doing what she did. It is a complicated thing and very hard to explain for me, however to the point, I pray to no thing but God.

I think i understand what you mean, but in islaam - we pray to God Alone and thank Him for everything He has given us. Those who did good in this world would do the same, like Mary, like Jesus, and all the prophets and righteous before and after them. They never prayed to others besides God because prayer is a form of worship, and to pray to others is a way of worshipping others besides, or along with God. :)

Those who did good for the sake of pleasing God and without associating partners with Him, they did it to please their own Creator in order to be rewarded by Him. So we don't need to thank them in this world, but we can pray to God to reward them even more. We can follow their way and if we are sincere in that, then we may meet them in paradise and thank them there.



So if I read the Quran, but I do not recieve the message the way I do from the bible, am I then condemned to hell? Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?

If you read it with an open heart and with sincerety, God will guide you. Anyone who is sincere will guide that person because according to a prophetic saying, if one takes a step towards God - God will go to them at speed.


The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

[Authentically recorded in Bukhari]





I know of many stories of muslims who weren't sincere and due to that - they left islaam. And there are stories of many non muslims who were sincere so God guided them. So God guides those who are sincere towards Him. :) And as stated earlier, one can't take a pick and mix of God's signs and messengers - but they have to accept them all.

Try reading the bible, and you'll see that if you are sincere - that will actually compliment the Qur'an. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus say worship me, but he does say that no-one can come to God except through me, and we believe that - nobody can completely reach God except through a messenger. Because the messengers are the link between us and God.



Hope you understand. And please ask if you have any questions! :)


Regards.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
sorry, i dont get what u're saying :D
I said that

"So what if you submit, but do not accept Allah, and live by the word of Jesus?"

What I meant to say was

"So what if you submit, but do not accept Muhammad, and live by the word of Jesus?"

basically the point I was getting at is if you are not a Muslim then you do not believe Muhammad was a prophet, or at least it is not conveyed this way in Catholicism. And instead of living by the words of Muhammad you live by the words that Jesus gave to us.

** I do not think Jesus was God and I do not worship Jesus, I worship God alone
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 04:56 PM
"So what if you submit, but do not accept Muhammad, and live by the word of Jesus?"
but the thing is that Jesus and Muhammed (peace be upon them) taught the same message, but even if you reject Muhammed a.s , at the same time you still fail in submitting to GOd, bc God said "Muhammed is the final prophet". so do you get what I am sayin. Whatever you reject what God says, basiclly you failed to submit to him, bc you're leaving something and accepting something .
Submitting to God, and rejecting his prophet is a contradiction.

basically the point I was getting at is if you are not a Muslim then you do not believe Muhammad was a prophet, or at least it is not conveyed this way in Catholicism. And instead of living by the words of Muhammad you live by the words that Jesus gave to us.
well we believe that the Gospel and Torah were sent by God, to Moses and JEsus(isa) peace be upon them, but they were altered through time, so Allah swt sent the Qur'an as the final revelation which will remain unchanged till the Day of Judgment, so Quran is here to correct the previous scriptures. So if you don't accept Muhammed as the final prophet (at the same time you reject Jesus real teachings, not todays' one) then we have 2 points:
1. you are not accepting the truth what it is and what was sent for years and years.
2.you're disobeying God, bc God said follow your Prophet (Muhammed saws).

so basiclly the person fails to submit to God completely and he fails to be a muslim.

** I do not think Jesus was God and I do not worship Jesus, I worship God alone
but you call Jesus lord, and you pray to him. i'm talking in general for christians, bc i dont know if you have specific christian beliefs.

:D cheers.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
You accept Jesus by accepting Allaah, and please don't be confused with the name Allaah because even christian arabs call God - Allaah. :) So to actually accept Jesus is to accept his message of calling to the worship of our own Creator without associating partners with Him.
I agree, I dont usually get confused with the names, what I actually meant to type in up there was Muhammad and not Allah. If you read the above post i think you will see what I mean. My thing is I accept Jesus was a prophet and came here to spread the word of God and die for our sins, however I have never learned much about Muhammad, and my religion or any other religions that I have dug into didnt mention him either. Therefore I have limited knowledge about him.(which i why i intend to read the Quran)


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I meant is there any evidence from your scripture that the followers of Jesus called themselves christians? Because theres proof in our scripture that Jesus son of Mary's disciples called themselves muslims as they submitted themselves by obeying the Messenger Jesus son of Mary, hence they were obedient to God.
This is the best proof I can find

Acts 11:26 "And when he (Barnabas) had found him (the Apostle Paul), he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I think i understand what you mean, but in islaam - we pray to God Alone and thank Him for everything He has given us. Those who did good in this world would do the same, like Mary, like Jesus, and all the prophets and righteous before and after them. They never prayed to others besides God because prayer is a form of worship, and to pray to others is a way of worshipping others besides, or along with God. :)
I think that is one really good thing about Islam, that you pray only to God, as I said before, that is also how I pray

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If you read it with an open heart and with sincerety, God will guide you. Anyone who is sincere will guide that person because according to a prophetic saying, if one takes a step towards God - God will go to them at speed.
I suppose only time will tell, as I said I will read it with an open mind

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Try reading the bible, and you'll see that if you are sincere - that will actually compliment the Qur'an. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus say worship me, but he does say that no-one can come to God except through me, and we believe that - nobody can completely reach God except through a messenger. Because the messengers are the link between us and God.
I have read the bible and I have noticed that it does not say to worship Jesus or call him God. This is why I get into agruments with others on Christianity, because Catholics worship Jesus and God, and to me it does not make any sense.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 05:04 PM
Sorry about talking too much, but i had this in another post previously which may clarify some things for you God willing:



Allaah Almighty says in the Qur'an:
And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghut (all false deities, etc. i.e. do not worship Taghut besides Allah)." Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified. So travel through the land and see what was the end of those who denied (the truth). [Qur'an 16:36]


We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. [14:4]


You'll see that those who were misguided was because they never wanted to come towards God, so their own sins and stubborness increased them in their misguidance. Anyone who turns away from God has chosen the path towards the darkness and away from God, whereas those who turn to God, if they are sincere - God will bring them closer towards Him, the Most Merciful. And the final destination is either paradise or hellfire.

Now these Prophets who went to other nations were ordered to convey the message to their people. So Noah came to his people, Moses came to his people, Jesus came to his people, all the prophets of the past came to their own people to call to the worship of Allaah alone, and not to associate partners with Him.

Islaam means submission, and all the true prophets of Allaah called their people to Islaam, submission to Allaah Almighty. Some people obeyed the messenger while others rejected the messenger. Those who rejected the messengers were destroyed by Allaah because they turned away from Allaah arrogantly when the clear signs had come to them. Even though these prophets were calling to the obedience of Allaah and His reward of paradise.


Now because these prophets had come to their people, Allaah gave some of the messenger's books or laws. So Moses was given the Torah, Jesus the Gospel (Injeel) etc. But what did these books call to? They called to the worship of Allaah, and His law.


This was on another thread:
First of all, we accept the previous scriptures [the Old Testament, the Gospel etc.] When these were sent down to the prophets, it was upto the nation to preserve it.

We know that from among them, there were some people who distorted them. Why was this? Because they wanted to follow their own whims and desires. For instance we know that there are so much copies of the Bible today, each with its own different interpretation. None of these are in the original language, and we know that if a scriptures not in its original language - then it's just a translation, its not the actual scripture. [Look at the bible, and ask yourself why you're using that specific version, why can't it just be that you get the original one? The reason for this is because the original doesn't remain. What does this mean? It mean's that you can't compare any of these versions to see what the original message sent down to Jesus was.]


Therefore, we as muslims do believe that the previous scriptures were revealed to the prophets of the earlier nations, however - these got distorted, even though it was upto these people to preserve the message which was sent to their prophet. And we can rightly say that it doesn't exist no more.



Due to the fact that these scriptures were distorted, and the people started worshipping others besides Allaah, and said things about Him which they shouldn't have said (i.e. we're God's children etc.) Allaah sent the message to the final prophet - Muhammad (peace be upon him.) Muhammad (peace be upon him) would come to confirm what was in the previous scriptures [calling to the worship of Allaah/God Alone without any associates] and this message would be for all of mankind (instead of just for the children of Isra'eel.) This message will be preserved by Allaah, and no-one is able to alter it by Allaah's Mercy. We know that till this day [since over 1400yrs ago] the Qur'an is still in arabic and is still preserved the same way it was over 1400yrs ago.

Why you may ask? Why did Allaah not preserve the message of the previous prophets, yet He preserves the message of Muhammad (peace be upon him)? The answer to this is simple. When Allaah sent a messenger to his people, it was upto the people to preserve the message, but they never had to spread it to different parts of the world. However, the message given to Muhammad (peace be upon him) was for the whole world, so Allaah has preserved it, but it is our duty to spread it to mankind. [If you feel this is wrong, you will find verses from the bible which claim Jesus (peace be upon him) being commanded to “Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel!” Matthew 10:6]

Whereas Muhammad (peace be upon him) is being told:

"Say: 'O mankind! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth." (Qur'an 7:158)



If you use try reading the Qur'an, you may find things which you find confusing, or verses which you don't understand. You may even accidentally take the verses out of context, so i'd just like to point out that the Qur'an can't be interpreted to our own understanding, rather - it should be understood according to how the Messenger of Allaah, and his companions understood it, due to the fact that they lived it throughout their life.


Therefore you'll have to look at the sciences of tafseer to get a true understanding of the interpretation of the Qur'an. You can do that by visiting these sites insha'Allaah (God willing: )


http://www.tafsir.com/

http://www.theholybook.org/




We don't totally reject the previous scriptures, we believe that they were original once upon a time. Think of it this way, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Final Testament (the Qur'an.) The Final Testament confirms what was in the previous scriptures, yet whatever was fabricated/distorted in the previous scriptures has been refuted in the Qur'an/Final Testament, and the Authentic Sunnah [prophetic way/sayings etc.]


If you have any questions, please don't be afraid to ask. And Allaah Almighty knows best.


PS: Now that i've seen your post above, if you try reading in the Qur'an - you won't find much direct information on Muhammad (peace be upon him.) Infact if you look in the Qur'an, Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) is mentioned more times than Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mentioned. The word Muhammad is only mentioned 4 times, whereas the name of Jesus is mentioned much, much more than that.

The best way to study the life of Muhammad (peace be upon him) is through looking at his biography, which is recorded through the sciences of hadith, so it really happened. We believe in it due to solid facts, and also faith. One doesn't lack the other, rather they both are hand in hand - faith and real life. :)
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
but the thing is that Jesus and Muhammed (peace be upon them) taught the same message, but even if you reject Muhammed a.s , at the same time you still fail in submitting to GOd, bc God said "Muhammed is the final prophet". so do you get what I am sayin. Whatever you reject what God says, basiclly you failed to submit to him, bc you're leaving something and accepting something .
Submitting to God, and rejecting his prophet is a contradiction.
But if you believe Jesus was the final prophet and everything you have learned tells you Jesus was the final prophet then why would you believe that Muhammad was? If you do not know that Muhammad was the final prophet then how do you know the Quran is the "true word of God"? This is the problem I am running into, I still give myself to God, it is just hard for me to determine what is right and wrong between religions

Originally Posted by vpb
but you call Jesus lord, and you pray to him. i'm talking in general for christians, bc i dont know if you have specific christian beliefs.

:D cheers.
I dont, most Christians do though.... I guess I am some sort of religious mutant :confused:
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 05:10 PM
Fi_Sabilillah, very good post . MashaAllah.

jazakallah bro.
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 05:15 PM
But if you believe Jesus was the final prophet and everything you have learned tells you Jesus was the final prophet then why would you believe that Muhammad was? If you do not know that Muhammad was the final prophet then how do you know the Quran is the "true word of God"?
by your religious point of view, christianity says that Jesus is son of God, or God at the same time, does it say anywehre that he was the last prophet sent to all humanity ? i hope i understood right what you said.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
by your religious point of view, christianity says that Jesus is son of God, or God at the same time, does it say anywehre that he was the last prophet sent to all humanity ? i hope i understood right what you said.
by my religious point of view Jesus was the son of God, or an extension of God, but not God himself. It does not say that he is the last prophet, however he said to live by his word, and since he is the son of God this is what I choose to do. This is where I ask, how am I supposed to know Muhammad was a true prophet or truly spread the word of God? I believe Jesus's words were the true word of God so by that I cannot believe that Muhammads words were unless they were the exact same
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Umar001
03-02-2007, 05:40 PM
I think the significant point is submission.

It is clear, if one submits to Islam then one must accept Islam in it's totality. Thus as a Muslim, when a person says 'I submit to God' the Muslim will say, well God's message to us is Islam so submit to it. But in reality the person might be submitting to their understanding of God. Just as a Muslim's understanding is that God revealed His message to Muhammad peace be upon him, the Christian understanding is different, thus submission can be relative to the individual's understanding.

To move on, is it acceptable for a person to submit to God from an Islamic view point but follow what he believes to be the words of Jesus only? The answer is No.

There are two paths for this answer,


1.
It has been narrated by Abu Hurayra that Allah's Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, said: "By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, there is none from amongst the Jews and Christians (of these present nations) who hears about me and then dies without believing in the MEssage with which I have been sent but he will be from the dwellers of the Fire"

Muslim Book of Faith V1 Chapter 240

Alongside this there are also verse which make it clear that a person cant reject one prophet and accept another and that no other religion except Islam will now be accepted.

2. From a technical point of view claiming to only want to follow Jesus' words, whilst believing in the Qu'ran would contradict it since the Qu'ran says that the Scripture has been changed by people.
Also on the same note the authenticity of the Bible is something debetable.

But even to break it down further, we should realise not all knowledge is obligatory upon someone. Meaning there are some things which a person can be escused of because he did not have the knowledge.


With regards to those who could not follow Islam before Muhammad, well again if we understand Islam then we see that it is possible to be a Muslim before Muhammad. If we look at the above hadith, we are told 'who hears about me' this is a condition, if a person does not know Muhammad how can he say I believe in Muhammad?

So this is where the rule comes in that in general Jews and Christians are disbelievers, but, it depends on individual cases also, and this is where Allah's knowledge comes in which we do not have. There were many Christians, I being one of them, who did not know bout Islam, but then when we were told we followed it.
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 05:43 PM
by my religious point of view Jesus was the son of God, or an extension of God, but not God himself. It does not say that he is the last prophet, however he said to live by his word, and since he is the son of God this is what I choose to do. This is where I ask, how am I supposed to know Muhammad was a true prophet or truly spread the word of God? I believe Jesus's words were the true word of God so by that I cannot believe that Muhammads words were unless they were the exact same
lol, because Muhammed saws told what went wrong with previous scriptures, as brother "fisebili.." wrote on the above post. He didnt say that Jesus a.s taught the wrong message , but he warned us that the message he taught has been altered by people, to meet their own desires, and Muhammed saws didn't ask people for any wealth or anything else, he was sent just to warn people.
It is true that if you look from the christian prespective than he is not a true Prophet, but Qur'an is telling you who Jesus (pbuh) is, what he taught and that what people claim that he taught this and this or he was Son of God is wrong, and how it is wrong , everything, because Allah swt is self-sufficient, he is not in need of anything. Praise be to him. Everythin that exists in heavens and earth and between them belongs to him.
I hope i answered your question. if not tell me i'll try to answer it better :)
Reply

- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 05:45 PM
MTAFFI, do you believe in One God, our Creator? :) If so, how can someone really be a child of someone else? It's through having a spouse right? Then they have children and have a family.


Now ask yourself, i don't even like saying this - but does God have a mother? Or uncle? If not - why not? If someone claims that God has children, then they believe that He has to have an equal so they can have that child? Which mean's there's two God's and a junior? Now if you say that God only has a child but no 'spouse' - then that can't really be a child can it?



This leads to the arguments of the philosophers that can God pick up a rock so heavy that no-one can pick it up? Or can God create another God like Himself?

You see that these arguments can't be argued against, however in islaam they can. It's only one statement - God only does what befits His Majesty.



So God doesn't need children, He doesn't need an associate. He doesn't need to create a rock so heavy that no-one picks up. God doesn't make our beliefs so hard for us. Our God is One God, the One who gave us life, and the One who will cause us to die. Then we'll be raised back again and be judged on all that we did by Him.


Do you understand? Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) is an honorable messenger in the sight of God, but he is created by God, the same way God created Adam without a father and mother - God can easily create Jesus without a father.



Try looking in your scripture, and try looking in the previous scriptures. All of the true scriptures call to the worship of God Alone, this is the same message revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him.) Maybe you could read the small biography from this site:

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...mmad-saws.html


Hope you benefit from it, and thanks for hearing me out. :)



Peace.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Hope you benefit from it, and thanks for hearing me out. :)



Peace.
no problem so far the knowledge you have offered has been very beneficial and helpful to me, in fact everyone ones input has been very helpful and thought provoking. I am going to do some research and see if I can find some more questions.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-02-2007, 07:23 PM
^^Good for u :) Always seek knowledge. Ask whatever you can and we'll try our best to answer.
Reply

vpb
03-02-2007, 07:29 PM
MTAFFI,

it's a good website for the Qur'an translation.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
Reply

- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
no problem so far the knowledge you have offered has been very beneficial and helpful to me, in fact everyone ones input has been very helpful and thought provoking. I am going to do some research and see if I can find some more questions.

Thanks for the input. :) I know we all throwing loads of links infront of you, but i think that we need to discuss a topic which might make the understanding easier, this site will help you understand alot of similarities between christianity and islaam insha'Allaah [God willing.]

http://beconvinced.com/


Maybe by seeing the similarities, we'll understand that they are all revelation sent by the same God to His Messengers (peace be upon them all.)



Peace.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-02-2007, 09:04 PM
thank you all for your links, there is a lot of information to go through so forgive me if I dont respond immediately. From what I see so far this stuff is very interesting, I am comparing it with some sites that are a little more pro christian as most of these seem to be geared straight into the Muslim faith (which isnt a bad thing, I just like to look at things from all angles)
Reply

- Qatada -
03-02-2007, 09:14 PM
Yeah thats ok, trust me i questioned my own faith before taking them steps forward. I was born in a muslim family, but I think that God only guided me because i was sincere in wanting to understand.

The problem usually lies when people don't understand the fundamental beliefs and fall into the error of the propaganda, which makes them turn away.. so yeah, reasoning is good. :)



Regards.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-03-2007, 01:45 AM
^^Same here. Me questioning is what got me interested in Islam more, Alhumdulillah. I didnt know enough even to answer people up until 9 grade. After i realized i didnt know anything, i started researching, Alhumdulillah.
Reply

vpb
03-03-2007, 08:28 AM
Alhumdulillah. I didnt know enough even to answer people up until 9 grade.
so you are in 10th grade now ? :D lol, just kidding
Reply

- Qatada -
03-03-2007, 03:00 PM
Here's a site which has some good info on how Jesus (peace be upon him) gave glad tidings on the final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him):

http://prophetofislam.com/index.php


Just found it today, praise be to Allaah. :)



Regards.
Reply

Muslim Woman
03-04-2007, 12:13 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&



Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Here's a site which has some good info on how Jesus (peace be upon him) gave glad tidings on the final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him):

http://prophetofislam.com/index.php

----this site is created by our revert bro ( ex -Christian missinary )





http://www.islamtomorrow.com/default.asp

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