Question for Muslims

[IbnAbdulHakim]

From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?

:salamext:

islam was the religion of Adam (peace be upon him) therefore it existed from the beginning of time and kept getting distorted along the line to form other branches such as judaism/christianity etc.

However there are those that never heard the message of islam and for them i heard they will have a trial at the day of judgement (heard it from awlaki) and this trial is exclusive for such a people.

 

[Eesa Abdullah]

This is completely false and ridiculous. First of all what historical document besides the Holy Quran as a primary source gives the history of Adam? The answer is the Bible. Ask any neutral non-religious historian if he regards the account of Adam and Eve in the Bible as "history", and he will without a doubt say no.

Islam as a general religion was always there, its main principle being submission to Allah. However, in terms of shariat it has been evolving and changing until its completion with the last Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa salam) in accordance with the wisdom and "master plan" of Almighty Allah Tala.

The words Islam and Muslim, however, were not always there as these are Arabic words, and the Prophets of old spoke different languages, for example, Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) spoke Aramaic as the lingua franca vernacular, and understood Hebrew for religious purposes.

However, the word Islam in its Aramaic equivalent (shlam) is mentioned in several places in the Bible.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/being_like_the_teacher.pdf

indeed. All the Prophets were Muslims however, they did not use the Arabic equivalent for the word.When Muhammad (saw) came the terms was new, but the idea was perpetual.

WaAllaahualam

wasalaam

 

[MTAFFI]

No it is not a play on words. Your premise that you submit to God is also false. Submitting to the will of Allah in different times manifested itself in different ways, because of the will of Allah for mankind has been evolving until its completion with the Khatam-ul-Anbiya, Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa (salallahu alaihi wa salam).

First of all, you can believe it is not a play on words, but if this were the case why was it not always called "Islam"? Second I do submit to God, I will do anything he asks of me without question, the difference here is I am not Muslim and just as you do not accept my views as a Christian, I dont have to believe that Muhammad was the last prophet or a prophet at all for that matter.

Jesus Christ (alaihi salam) was sent to the people of Israel. If they accepted him as their Messiah, than they are considered as Muslims. They were under the obligation to follow the Gospel revealed from Allah. So they submitted to Allah in accordance from what He expected from them.

Yes and they are called Christians, not Muslims

What Allah expects from you and I, however, is different. He expects that we accept His last Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salam) and accept the Holy Quran. If we submit to His new expectations, than we are Muslims, if not, than we are disbelievers.

Being a Christian I believe in Jesus's word and he did not mention (as far as I know) that there was to be another prophet, in fact I believe he said that he would return for the end of days. So why would I listen to what Muhammad said?

So every nation had a Warner sent to them, only a small fraction of them have been mentioned by name in the Holy Quran. If people in the past worshipped idols instead of Allah, it is because they turned away from the teachings of their Prophets. Even the Israelities, who had dozens of Prophets sent for them because they were an exalted nation, would many times abandon their divine laws and indulge in idol worship. Why, even in lifetime Moses (alaihi salam) they shamelessly created the "golden calf" and worshipped it! So your point about Indians worshipping the elements, nature, etc., is not valid.

If there were all of the prophets, then why is there so much evidence that people worshipped nature and other idols? Also why would the Quran and the Bible not mention all of them? Are they all not equally important?

I don't know who Steve is, but he is incorrect to say that people who reject the Quran are not disbelievers, even if they haven't read it. Islam is incumbant upon all humanity, whether they have read the Quran or not.

Steve is someone who replied above, and this is what I disagree with and the reason I started this thread. Thank you for your response

 

[MTAFFI]

i share your feelings, BUT
more than one christian on here has said that salvation is based on belief (some say belief alone and others say belief + good works). in any case, you must be a christian to go to heaven.
so i'm confused about your paragraph above. do you disagree that you must be a christian to go to heaven? almost all christians seem to hold this belief.

I am not what would be considered a typical Christian, I have read the bible and several other religious books. I think each religion that I have read into has alot to offer and the people practicing these religions are doing what they believe they need to do to enter heaven. I do not reject or accept, I just take what I can from the knowledge given to me and apply it to my life. I also do not believe that Jesus was actually God, I believe he was an extension of God to bring Gods word to everyone and die for the sins of man. So anyways I do not believe that because someone is not a Christian they will go to hell, in fact I believe if a person believes in God and does good for himself and the people around him he will actually be rewarded in the next life.

Also just so you know the Quran is the next book on my list to read

 

[MTAFFI]

I've said it before and i'll say it again. At the end of the day, God decides who enters heaven or hell.

I very much agree with this

 

[- Qatada -]

First of all, you can believe it is not a play on words, but if this were the case why was it not always called "Islam"? Second I do submit to God, I will do anything he asks of me without question, the difference here is I am not Muslim and just as you do not accept my views as a Christian, I dont have to believe that Muhammad was the last prophet or a prophet at all for that matter.

It was Islaam because it was submission towards God, thats what all the prophets called to. So anyone who submitted was a muslim. And you do have to accept Muhammad (peace be upon him) the same way the jews needed to accept Jesus. It's not a pick and mix, but we take the whole package.

Yes and they are called Christians, not Muslims

Maybe you could prove that with some evidence?

Being a Christian I believe in Jesus's word and he did not mention (as far as I know) that there was to be another prophet, in fact I believe he said that he would return for the end of days. So why would I listen to what Muhammad said?

We also believe he will return on the end days and slay the anti-christ. Jesus is the messiah and the part in the bible when it says that there will be others claiming to be false messiah's is true, because the anti-christ will also claim to be a messiah. Muhammad (peace be upon him) never was the messiah, because that was Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.)

If there were all of the prophets, then why is there so much evidence that people worshipped nature and other idols?

That's the catch. All other ways of life associate partners with God whether these partners are stone idols, or man made systems. So God sends messengers to call people to the obedience of God instead of worshipping man made objects [idols, laws etc.] That's why you hear so much controversy about muslims not wanting to vote in man made laws and philosophies.

Also, shirk which is the most heinous of sins in islaam doesn't simply mean to reject the fact that God exists. But shirk is to associate partners with God, and this is how satan decieved the people to believe that they should pray to a stone idol, to a pious human [i.e. a saint] in order to connect with God, yet God is the All Hearing so why doesn't the person pray to Him alone? This is where the majority of mankind has deviated, because their forefathers did this. The forefathers who disobeyed the Messenger of God.

Also why would the Quran and the Bible not mention all of them? Are they all not equally important?

Because there are 124,000 prophets as stated by the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon them.) And there's no real reason to mention all of them and God only relates to us the stories of those prophets which may affect our lives. I.e. Prophet Noah for his patience, Prophet Abraham for his sacrifices, Prophet Joseph as an example for the youth, Prophet Moses for his striving hard with his people to gain their freedom, Prophet Jesus in his patience when there were so much enemies against him etc. All the prophets are an example for us. So God relates to us the stories through His final messenger (peace be upon him.)

Steve is someone who replied above, and this is what I disagree with and the reason I started this thread. Thank you for your response

Brother ibnabdulHakim already stated earlier that those who never recieved the message will be trialled on the day of resurrection to see if they are worthy of paradise or not.

However, those who recieve the message clearly and still turn away are liable to God's punishment - as they had the chance to submit to God but they chose to turn away.



And God knows best.


Regards.

 

[paarsurrey]

From what I understand, in Islam if you are not a Muslim then you are a Kuffar, and if you are Kuffar then you go to hell. If this is the case what happened to everyone who didnt follow Islam when it didnt exist?

The Muslim Prayer Surah Al-Fatihah or the Opener mentions four basic attributes of GodAllahYHWH; one of them is Malik-e Yomuddin or the Master of the Day of Judgment, so finally He would decide, we humans cannot interfere with His decision. It is He who would decide who would go to heaven or hell. GodAllahYHWH is kind and gracious; one who died before Muhammad (SAW), so naturally his fate would be decided according to the truth of his time, the religion/Book he followed faithfully. This is clearly mentioned in Quran. Even one to whom the message of Islam has not yet reached for no fault of his, he would be excused.
Thanks

 

[vpb]

selam alaikum,

honey it's talking about passing over hell not 'in' Hell- on the Day of Judgement everyone will have to pass over the bridge which is over hell- the believers will pass over unharmed and the wrongdoers will fall into Hell

as far as I know, all people will see hell, basiclly HELL will be demonstrated to everyone wether he/she is a muslim or not. Hell has 7 doors, and those 7 doors will be used only for non-muslims, basiclly only non-muslims will enter HELL throught its doors, and every door is for different type of non-believer. Muslim don't enter HELL through its doors but they enter it by falling from the bridge of Sirat (the only way to paradise), those who are sucessfull will pass it. and I think there is a hadith which tells that there will be muslims who will pass the bridge of sirat (which is the only way to paradise) in speed of light, speed of horse etc etc, till to the lowest one, who that person will pas it so slow (dragging himself) that when he reaches the doors of jannah, he will be left almost nothing, and then he will be cleaned etc etc and then enter jannah.

if I made a mistake somewhere, please correct me.

 

[MTAFFI]

It was Islaam because it was submission towards God, thats what all the prophets called to. So anyone who submitted was a muslim. And you do have to accept Muhammad (peace be upon him) the same way the jews needed to accept Jesus. It's not a pick and mix, but we take the whole package.

So what if you submit, but do not accept Muhammad, and live by the word of Jesus?

Maybe you could prove that with some evidence?

I am not sure what you need proof of, a Christian is someone who follows Christ. If I misunderstood your request please let me know and I will do my best to provide evidence.

We also believe he will return on the end days and slay the anti-christ. Jesus is the messiah and the part in the bible when it says that there will be others claiming to be false messiah's is true, because the anti-christ will also claim to be a messiah. Muhammad (peace be upon him) never was the messiah, because that was Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.)

I agree with this

That's the catch. All other ways of life associate partners with God whether these partners are stone idols, or man made systems. So God sends messengers to call people to the obedience of God instead of worshipping man made objects [idols, laws etc.] That's why you hear so much controversy about muslims not wanting to vote in man made laws and philosophies.

But if all of these prophets were sent are you saying that in many cases people didnt listen?

Also, shirk which is the most heinous of sins in islaam doesn't simply mean to reject the fact that God exists. But shirk is to associate partners with God, and this is how satan decieved the people to believe that they should pray to a stone idol, to a pious human [i.e. a saint] in order to connect with God, yet God is the All Hearing so why doesn't the person pray to Him alone? This is where the majority of mankind has deviated, because their forefathers did this. The forefathers who disobeyed the Messenger of God.

This I kind of agree with and kind of dont, in Catholicism there are many patron saints. You dont just pray to them at night like you would God, but you ask them to help you in life with things, kind of like an angel, but the prayer type is not the same. There is a prayer to the mother of Jesus, but it is not the same as praying to God, it is thanking her for doing what she did. It is a complicated thing and very hard to explain for me, however to the point, I pray to no thing but God.

Brother ibnabdulHakim already stated earlier that those who never recieved the message will be trialled on the day of resurrection to see if they are worthy of paradise or not.

However, those who recieve the message clearly and still turn away are liable to God's punishment - as they had the chance to submit to God but they chose to turn away.
And God knows best.
Regards.

So if I read the Quran, but I do not recieve the message the way I do from the bible, am I then condemned to hell? Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?

 

[IceQueen~]

"...Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, or a strong wind, or fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe wthout any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches and some will down into Hell. The last person will cross as if being dragged (over the bridge)..." Sahih Bukhari

 

[Ayesha Rana]

Also just so you know the Quran is the next book on my list to read

Please bro do us a favour. When u read the Qur\'an, read it with an open heart without prejudice and i hope u benefit from it. May Allah guide u Insha\'Allah

 

[vpb]

So what if you submit, but do not accept Allah, and live by the word of Jesus?

i think you mixed Christianity with Islam, bc in Islam , Jesus(Isa a.s) is a prophet, he was sent with the gospel (injeel), and he called to oneness of Allah, same as all other prophets. but the question you stating is from a christian point of you, because you believe the Jesus is God, but from our point of view, if you don't accept Allah, then basiclly you have rejected God, which leads to rejection of many other things. so in order for a person to submit to God he needs to recongnize Allah as the only one worthy of worship, one absolute God, recognize all his prophets (from Adam to Muhammed), his books, , angels etc. . so for instance, if you say that Moses a.s was not a prophet, then basiclly you reject what God told you , and you not submitting to God anymore.

So if I read the Quran, but I do not recieve the message the way I do from the bible, am I then condemned to hell? Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?

If you get the message then you are classified as "He has recieved the message", but as for the

Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?

the thing is that you need to open the heart and ask God for his guidance. Because it is you who decides wether to accept the message or not, bc Allah swt said that he made clear false from truth. so it's you who studies them and decide. because none of us is able to guide people, we can just deliver the message and Allah swt is the only who guides people, even the Prophet Muhammed saws could NOT guide people, as Allah swt says in the Quran , he (Muhammed saws) was sent only as a warner, just to warn people.. So if you get the message but not open the heart, and think about what it says, then it's obvious that you will not accept it. after u get the message from us, then it is between you and Allah swt.

 

[vpb]

"...Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, or a strong wind, or fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe wthout any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches and some will down into Hell. The last person will cross as if being dragged (over the bridge)..." Sahih Bukhari

jazakallah for the hadith.

 

[MTAFFI]

Please bro do us a favour. When u read the Qur\'an, read it with an open heart without prejudice and i hope u benefit from it. May Allah guide u Insha\'Allah

I will read it as I have read anything else, my mind is always open and I will try to pull everything that is good from this book. I believe every book that was written with God in mind can benefit everyone, no matter what your religious background is

 

[IceQueen~]

that's nice masha allah^

 

[MTAFFI]

if you don't accept Allah, then basiclly you have rejected God, which leads to rejection of many other things.

that was a typo, I had Allah on the mind but meant to type Muhammad, sorry about that

 

[vpb]

that was a typo, I had Allah on the mind but meant to type Muhammad, sorry about that

sorry, i dont get what u're saying

 

[- Qatada -]

So what if you submit, but do not accept Allah, and live by the word of Jesus?

You accept Jesus by accepting Allaah, and please don't be confused with the name Allaah because even christian arabs call God - Allaah. So to actually accept Jesus is to accept his message of calling to the worship of our own Creator without associating partners with Him.

I am not sure what you need proof of, a Christian is someone who follows Christ. If I misunderstood your request please let me know and I will do my best to provide evidence.

I meant is there any evidence from your scripture that the followers of Jesus called themselves christians? Because theres proof in our scripture that Jesus son of Mary's disciples called themselves muslims as they submitted themselves by obeying the Messenger Jesus son of Mary, hence they were obedient to God.


This is what is said in the Qur'an:

[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit [Gabriel] and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

And [remember] when I inspired to the disciples, "Believe in Me and in My messenger Jesus." They said, "We have believed, so bear witness that indeed we are Muslims [in submission to Allah ]."

[Qur'an 5: 110-111]
​

I agree with this

That's kool.

But if all of these prophets were sent are you saying that in many cases people didnt listen?

Yes, that's why you normally hear that God sends messengers to their people - alot of the time - the people choose to disobey the prophet out of arrogance because they don't want to leave the way of their forefathers.

How did these people follow the way of their forefathers if Adam was the first father? That's when you refer to the story of Prophet Noah, and how satan made the people erect statues of pious people - these pious people reminded them of the times when everyone followed the true message of God. However, when these people erected the statues - their generations died and satan came to them again and made them believe that their forefathers erected these as intercessors between them and God [because they were pious people.] Which is associating partners with God - which is the unforgiveable sin, unless the person repents and turns to obedience to God and His messenger before death approaches them.

You can read the story of Prophet Noah from here insha'Allaah (God willing):
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets-islam/1695-prophet-nuh-noah.html


The one's who were warned and turned away - God punished them because they have turned away from the purpose of their own creation. So you see that all these calamities which hit the earth like hurricane's, earthquakes etc. are because of the people's sins, yet still God is prepared to forgive them if they turn to Him in obedience.

However, those who turn obey the Messenger and be obedient - God sends upon them countless blessings in this world and the hereafter.

This I kind of agree with and kind of dont, in Catholicism there are many patron saints. You dont just pray to them at night like you would God, but you ask them to help you in life with things, kind of like an angel, but the prayer type is not the same. There is a prayer to the mother of Jesus, but it is not the same as praying to God, it is thanking her for doing what she did. It is a complicated thing and very hard to explain for me, however to the point, I pray to no thing but God.

I think i understand what you mean, but in islaam - we pray to God Alone and thank Him for everything He has given us. Those who did good in this world would do the same, like Mary, like Jesus, and all the prophets and righteous before and after them. They never prayed to others besides God because prayer is a form of worship, and to pray to others is a way of worshipping others besides, or along with God.

Those who did good for the sake of pleasing God and without associating partners with Him, they did it to please their own Creator in order to be rewarded by Him. So we don't need to thank them in this world, but we can pray to God to reward them even more. We can follow their way and if we are sincere in that, then we may meet them in paradise and thank them there.

So if I read the Quran, but I do not recieve the message the way I do from the bible, am I then condemned to hell? Would it be my fault that the message did not come through to me as it does you?

If you read it with an open heart and with sincerety, God will guide you. Anyone who is sincere will guide that person because according to a prophetic saying, if one takes a step towards God - God will go to them at speed.


The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

[Authentically recorded in Bukhari]





I know of many stories of muslims who weren't sincere and due to that - they left islaam. And there are stories of many non muslims who were sincere so God guided them. So God guides those who are sincere towards Him. And as stated earlier, one can't take a pick and mix of God's signs and messengers - but they have to accept them all.

Try reading the bible, and you'll see that if you are sincere - that will actually compliment the Qur'an. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus say worship me, but he does say that no-one can come to God except through me, and we believe that - nobody can completely reach God except through a messenger. Because the messengers are the link between us and God.



Hope you understand. And please ask if you have any questions!


Regards.

 

[MTAFFI]

sorry, i dont get what u're saying

I said that

"So what if you submit, but do not accept Allah, and live by the word of Jesus?"

What I meant to say was

"So what if you submit, but do not accept Muhammad, and live by the word of Jesus?"

basically the point I was getting at is if you are not a Muslim then you do not believe Muhammad was a prophet, or at least it is not conveyed this way in Catholicism. And instead of living by the words of Muhammad you live by the words that Jesus gave to us.

** I do not think Jesus was God and I do not worship Jesus, I worship God alone

 

[vpb]

"So what if you submit, but do not accept Muhammad, and live by the word of Jesus?"

but the thing is that Jesus and Muhammed (peace be upon them) taught the same message, but even if you reject Muhammed a.s , at the same time you still fail in submitting to GOd, bc God said "Muhammed is the final prophet". so do you get what I am sayin. Whatever you reject what God says, basiclly you failed to submit to him, bc you're leaving something and accepting something .
Submitting to God, and rejecting his prophet is a contradiction.

basically the point I was getting at is if you are not a Muslim then you do not believe Muhammad was a prophet, or at least it is not conveyed this way in Catholicism. And instead of living by the words of Muhammad you live by the words that Jesus gave to us.

well we believe that the Gospel and Torah were sent by God, to Moses and JEsus(isa) peace be upon them, but they were altered through time, so Allah swt sent the Qur'an as the final revelation which will remain unchanged till the Day of Judgment, so Quran is here to correct the previous scriptures. So if you don't accept Muhammed as the final prophet (at the same time you reject Jesus real teachings, not todays' one) then we have 2 points:
1. you are not accepting the truth what it is and what was sent for years and years.
2.you're disobeying God, bc God said follow your Prophet (Muhammed saws).

so basiclly the person fails to submit to God completely and he fails to be a muslim.

** I do not think Jesus was God and I do not worship Jesus, I worship God alone

but you call Jesus lord, and you pray to him. i'm talking in general for christians, bc i dont know if you have specific christian beliefs.

cheers.