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al-fateh
04-11-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Fateh
are ALL non-muslims abided in HELL...(completely explained here)


Originally posted by hacyec

I believe it says in the Qur'an that there are Muslims even withing the people of the book, people who are considered Muslims. Remember that the biggest sin is to commit Shirk, do Jews do this? I was Catholic and the only time I commited something Shirk was when I was a child, but then learned to think otherwise. Personally, yes I believe that Jew's, Christians, and of course Muslims will go to heaven as long as they deserve it of course, a pious Jew is much more deserving of heaven than a murderous Muslim, you get what I mean? But all is in Allah's hands in the end brother's and sisters, salaam.


Answer by Al-Fateh

not Jew, no Christian, no other religion will have its followers go to heaven

this is agains the Quran

At-Tahreem - (The Prohibition)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
66 7 1 - [66:7]
English Yusuf Ali: [66:7]
(They will say), "O ye Unbelievers! Make no excuses this Day! Ye are being but requited for all that ye did!"

7 36 1 - [7:36]
English Yusuf Ali: [7:36]
But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance,- they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for ever).

2 39 1 - [2:39]
English Yusuf Ali: [2:39]
"But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

2 257 1 - [2:257]
English Yusuf Ali: [2:257]
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

43 77 1 - [43:77]
English Yusuf Ali: [43:77]
They will cry: "O Malik! would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide!"

64 10 1 - [64:10]
English Yusuf Ali: [64:10]
But those who reject Faith and treat Our Signs as falsehoods, they will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein for aye: and evil is that Goal.
moreover....

Originally Posted by Al-Fateh
6 128 1 - [6:128]
English Yusuf Ali: [6:128]
One day will He gather them all together, (and say): "O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men." Their friends amongst men will say: "Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term - which thou didst appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as Allah willeth." for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.



this verse is very misunderstood by MANY muslims....

Tafsir Al-Jalalayn

و اذكر يوم نحشرهم بالنون والياء أي الله الخلق جميعا ويقال لهم يا معشر الجن قد استكثرتم من الإنس بإغوائكم وقال أولياؤهم الذين أطاعوهم من الإنس ربنا استمتع بعضنا ببعض انتفع الإنس بتزيين الجن لهم الشهوات والجن بطاعة الإنس لهم . وبلغنا أجلنا الذي أجلت لنا وهو يوم القيامة وهذا تحسر منهم قال تعالى لهم على لسان الملائكة: النار مثواكم مأواكم خالدين فيها إلا ما شاء الله من الأوقات التي يخرجون فيها لشرب الحميم فإنه خارجها كما قال تعالى ثم إن مرجعهم لإلى الجحيم وعن ابن عباس انه فيمن علم الله أنهم يؤمنون فما بمعنى من إن ربك حكيم في صنعه عليم بخلقه

Al-Qurtubi

خالدين فيها إلا ما شاء الله استثناء ليس من الأول. قال الزجاج : يرجع إلى يوم القيامة، أي خالدين في النار إلا ما شاء الله من مقدار حشرهم من قبورهم ومقدار مدتهم في الحساب، فالاستثناء منقطع. وقيل: يرجع الاستثناء إلى النار، أي إلا ما شاء الله من تعذيبكم بغير النار في بعض الأوقات. وقال ابن عباس: الاستثناء لأهل الإيمان. فــما على هذا بمعنى من. وعنه أيضاً أنه قال: هذه الآية توجب الوقف في جميع الكفار. ومعنى ذلك أنها توجب الوقف فيمن لم يمت، إذ قد يسلم. وقيل: إلا ما شاء الله من كونهم في الدنيا بغير عذاب. ومعنى هذه الآية معنى الآية التي في هود. قوله: فأما الذين شقوا ففي النار وهناك يأتي مستوفىً إن شاء الله. إن ربك حكيم أي في عقوبتهم وفي جميع أفعاله عليم [هود: 106] بمقدار مجازاتهم.


* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
{ وَيَوْمَ يِحْشُرُهُمْ جَمِيعاً يَامَعْشَرَ ٱلْجِنِّ قَدِ ٱسْتَكْثَرْتُمْ مِّنَ ٱلإِنْسِ وَقَالَ أَوْلِيَآؤُهُم مِّنَ ٱلإِنْسِ رَبَّنَا ٱسْتَمْتَعَ بَعْضُنَا بِبَعْضٍ وَبَلَغْنَآ أَجَلَنَا ٱلَّذِيۤ أَجَّلْتَ لَنَا قَالَ ٱلنَّارُ مَثْوَاكُمْ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَآ إِلاَّ مَا شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ حَكِيمٌ عَليمٌ }

And, mention, the day when He, God, shall gather them (yahshuruhum, may also read nahshuruhum, 'We shall gather them'), that is, creatures, all together, and it will be said to them: 'O assembly of jinn, you have garnered much of mankind', by your misleading [them]. Then their friends, those who obeyed them, from among mankind will say, 'Our Lord, we enjoyed one another, mankind enjoyed what the jinn adorned for them of passions, while the jinn [enjoyed] mankind's obedience to them; but now we have arrived at the term which You have appointed for us', that is, the Day of Resurrection - this [statement] expresses extreme regret on their part. He, exalted be He, will say, to them, by the tongues of the angels: 'The Fire is your lodging, your abode, to abide therein' - except what God wills, of those times when they will exit from it in order to drink boiling water, which is located outside it, as God, exalted be He, has said: Then they shall return to the Hell-fire [Q. 37:68]; according to Ibn 'Abbās, this [proviso] pertains to those whom God knows will believe (mā, 'what', thus has the sense of man, 'whom'). Surely your Lord is Wise, in His actions, Knowing, of His creatures.


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
{ وَيَوْمَ يِحْشُرُهُمْ جَمِيعاً يَامَعْشَرَ ٱلْجِنِّ قَدِ ٱسْتَكْثَرْتُمْ مِّنَ ٱلإِنْسِ وَقَالَ أَوْلِيَآؤُهُم مِّنَ ٱلإِنْسِ رَبَّنَا ٱسْتَمْتَعَ بَعْضُنَا بِبَعْضٍ وَبَلَغْنَآ أَجَلَنَا ٱلَّذِيۤ أَجَّلْتَ لَنَا قَالَ ٱلنَّارُ مَثْوَاكُمْ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَآ إِلاَّ مَا شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ حَكِيمٌ عَليمٌ }

(In the day when He will gather them together) the Jinn and human beings ((He will say): O ye assembly of the Jinn! Many of humankind did ye seduce) how many human beings have erred by seeking help in you. (And their adherents) the adherents of the Jinn (among humankind) who sought help in the leaders of the Jinn upon camping at a valley or hunting a beast of theirs, used to say: 'we seek refuge in the master of this valley from the foolish among his people', and used to feel safe after saying this, (will say: Our Lord!) O our Lord! (We enjoyed one another) we benefited from one another; the benefit of the human beings was safety from the Jinn, and that of the Jinn, their status and position among their people (but now we have arrived at the appointed term which Thou appointedst for us) i.e. death. (He) Allah (will say) to them: (Fire is your home) is your dwelling, O group of Jinn. (Abide therein for ever) abiding in the Fire, (save him whom Allah willeth (to deliver)) but Allah wills that they abide therein for eternity. (Lo! thy Lord is Wise) He decreed that they will abide in Hell for ever, (Aware) of them and of their punishment.
Salam!
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AB517
04-11-2007, 07:21 PM
Hello,

Is God infinty loving and Just?

thanks
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-11-2007, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by AB517
Hello,

Is God infinty loving and Just?

thanks
i see where your going with this.

God is just, and he loves those who do righteous good deeds.

How can a man be doing righteous good deeds when he rejects the one who gives him the very air he breathes and lets him free through all his sins till the last breath which is the last chance.


Gods justice is he makes it clear to the people of what is right and wrong, its people who transgress themselves.
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AB517
04-11-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i see where your going with this.

God is just, and he loves those who do righteous good deeds.

How can a man be doing righteous good deeds when he rejects the one who gives him the very air he breathes and lets him free through all his sins till the last breath which is the last chance.


Gods justice is he makes it clear to the people of what is right and wrong, its people who transgress themselves.
I am happy that you know because that means your mind is open and your heart feels what is true from him. He awaits you with open arms and a loving heart. This brings me, but more importly, him (or her) great joy.

This sounds crazy, no it is crazy. I preyed for gods help in forgiving someone. He answered … I know ... I am a sinner and quite frankly a loser.

“Do you want me to punish them forever?”

This got me thinking, what sins are punishable for eternity.
Believing another religion?

I don’t have the answer, that is why I am even here, I am a lost soul seeking answers.

Thank you for taking the time to even answer me.
AB
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-11-2007, 11:13 PM
Hi,


Allah is ready to offer guidance at any time, all a heart has to do is seek. Every human is born upon the fitrah (a natural inclination towards good/islam)

tell me, do you want to worship only one God who gives all good and offers heaven?

or do you want to worship three gods in one ? or idols? or a god who u kno exists but just doesnt wanna send signals (agnostics)... does any of this make sense?


i wouldnt be a muslim if islam wasnt so crystal clear




its nice discussing with you :)
Reply

- Qatada -
04-11-2007, 11:15 PM
Hey AB517.


I posted this in another thread, maybe you could check it out because there may be some things which are irrelevant in this post - however, it will be of some benefit to you inshaa Allaah [God willing]:


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah


We've discussed the issue in depth earlier in this thread, and the reason why the people who don't submit to Allaah [Islaam means submission] don't get rewarded is due to the fact that they rejected Allaah's signs/messengers, and favours which He sent upon them. They chose disbelief over belief even though the proof had become clear and manifest to them.

We explained that believing and submitting to Allaah is being grateful to your Creator, and if you be thankful and grateful - He will bestow upon you more good [in this world and the hereafter - since God cares for His servants from among all of mankind instead of a small minority only], but if you turn away arrogantly then Allaah is not in need of you, and you will have a constricted life, & the One to come will be even worse.


We also discussed that if someone rejected the message when it was clear and manifest to them - then they would probably continue in their disbelief, and if given an immortal life - they would persist in their disbelief. So being punished in the hellfire forever wouldn't be unjust. Since that person if given a life of eternity would remain in the state of disbelief anyway.


We don't need to boast on the number of followers since every person only submits to Allaah for their own good, but those who choose disbelief over belief are doing so for their own loss.


Try checking from page 3 onwards from this thread to read an earlier discussion related to these topics.


The issue of reincarnation isn't really a true belief since none of the earlier prophets brought this concept, because we live in this world for a temporary time only and then die. Then we will be ressurected and questioned by the One who gives us life, sustains us throughout it, then He causes us to die and then He raises us back to life again to be questioned on all that we did. That day the truthful will benefit from their truth and be rewarded for their good, but those who belied the truth will face a humiliating punishment.

To believe in the concept of reincarnation would mean that man is given many chances to change what he/she did in this life, so they have 'many' lives. However, we can see from many stories of the children of Isra'eel who repent for their mistakes and they are forgiven, even if it is through certain punishments. They aren't brought back into new bodies, since death only occurs once for man. And then he/she returns to their Creator, either to be rewarded or to be punished. This is the same message for all of mankind, and a religion which is for a specific set of people can't truelly be a religion if God ignores the rest of His creation.



Regards.


The Messenger of God, peace be upon him said that all the children of Adam sin - but the best of sinners are those who repent. Part of repentance is to feel regret for ones mistakes, and to have the intention not to fall into that sin again.


The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

It was related by at-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound.



The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.


It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).



Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).


I have to go off now, but if you have any questions - then please don't hesitate to PM me! :)




Peace.
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Philosopher
04-11-2007, 11:15 PM
Dont trust Al-Fateh. Only God can judge.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-11-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Dont trust Al-Fateh. Only God can judge.
and God has set certain requirements for jannah. if you dont meet them you dont get admittance into heaven.
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-11-2007, 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Hi,


Allah is ready to offer guidance at any time, all a heart has to do is seek.
Every human is born upon the fitrah (a natural inclination towards good/islam)

tell me, do you want to worship only one God who gives all good and offers heaven?

or do you want to worship three gods in one ? or idols? or a god who u kno exists but just doesnt wanna send signals (agnostics)... does any of this make sense?


i wouldnt be a muslim if islam wasnt so crystal clear




its nice discussing with you :)
:sl:
It mean we seek for knowledge and seek for Allah's rewards to us, InshAllah!

:w:
Reply

AB517
04-12-2007, 12:01 PM
We've discussed the issue in depth earlier in this thread, and the reason why the people who don't submit to Allaah [Islaam means submission] don't get rewarded is due to the fact that they rejected Allaah's signs/messengers, and favours which He sent upon them. They chose disbelief over belief even though the proof had become clear and manifest to them.

English Yusuf Ali: [2:257]
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).



OH MY …
Just like the bible it seems we can pick verses that point the way. Even though man can not handle the flow of God through him, we can pick parts of it up.

Faith is different from religion. I do submit to this being! I reject and I am so … so … sorry for my transgressions and am trying, all-be-it unsuccessfully, trying not to repeat them.

I will buy this Koran and read it. We Christians have different translations of the bible but the center piece of most is the King James Version. Is there the equivalent of the Koran?

Thank You
AB517
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- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 12:16 PM
Hey AB517. :)


The praise is for Allaah Almighty who revealed to His final Messenger the Criterion [The Qur'an], it confirms what came before it (Of Moses [Tawrah] and Jesus's message [the Gospel].) It clears the mistakes which man made when trying to pass on that message.

You may notice that they're are many many denominations within christianity, they even differ on which is the original Gospel revealed to Jesus son of Mary, however the Qur'an confirms what Jesus truely came with, and it clears the misconceptions people had regarding Jesus, that he is the son of God, because we know that God does not have children, He is way above that, the Most Praised, Most Merciful.

The muslims only have One Book - the Qur'an and no muslim differs on that, which is sent down by Allaah to His Final Messenger, Muhammad peace be upon him. We don't reject Jesus son of Mary - the Messiah, nor do we reject Prophet Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc. We believe that all these great prophets called to the worship of God, my Lord and your Lord, the Cherisher and Sustainer of all that exists.


I posted this in another thread, and i hope you don't mind me copying and pasting what i have said earlier:


Let's start off with the fact that the majority of the world believes in a God, or 'Higher being.' The difference between islaam and all other faiths is that instead of just recognising that there is a God, we believe that the Creator created us with the purpose of submitting to Him, worshipping Him alone sincerely without any associates.


These associates can be stone idols, it can be humans (or human legislations) it can be a person's desires etc.



Islaam call's to the worship of God, known as Allaah in arabic. If you're confused about why God is Allaah in arabic, realise that people from spain call God - Dios, the french call God - Dieu etc. Therefore we call God, Allaah in arabic.


Allaah has sent messengers to convey the same message of calling to the worship of God since the beginning of time, since Adam (peace be upon him) the first person to ever live. All the messengers came to call to Allaah's worship, and this is the purpose of our creation - to worship Allaah, without no associates, so no idols, no humans, no law which opposes the law which Allaah has revealed to His messengers.


We as muslims believe that Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) were prophets. There have been a total of 124,000 prophets that have come to mankind to call to the worship of Allaah Alone. However, the majority of mankind has fallen astray, because they do believe in a Creator, but they reject the fact that He should be worshipped alone.


Any deeds we do, we do them sincerely to gain Allaah's Mercy, and if we gain it - we will enter the eternal paradise which all the prophets have called to also. However, if someone rejects the worship of the One God - without any associates, they will be punished in the hellfire. This is the only sin which God does not forgive, why should He, if the person is saying that a stone is God? Or a human is God etc.



We all will die and be raised back on the day of recompense, when Allaah/God will judge between us on all that we did. No-one will be judged unfairly because Allaah is the Most Just. Allaah can bring the dead back to life, the same way He brings the dead land back to life by sending down rain.



If you feel that God is being unfair to His servants by punishing those that associate partners with Him, then the justice for this will also be balanced out. Allaah will ask those who associated partners with Him to ask the one's they worshipped for reward. So if someone worshipped a stone idol, they will ask that for recompense on the day of judgement (obviously the stone won't be able to do anything.) If someone worships a human, even if the human is pious, the person will have to get their reward from this human [but obviously everything is dependant on the Creator.] The one's who worshipped God Alone, sincerely without no associates - they will be rewarded by Allaah, the Exhalted with an eternal paradise where they can have all that they desire, and more.



If anyone feels that it is unjust, then they have to stop being unjust to their own Creator. If Allaah created man so he should worship Him, then why worship the stone idol, or why worship a human when you can turn towards your Creator?




Allaah Almighty knows best.

If you have any questions - please don't hesitate to ask. :)



PS: The Qur'an is only Qur'an if it is in the arabic language, there are many other translations which are simply translations - therefore they are prone to error. However there are no contradictions whatsoever in the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace be upon him) never called people to worship him, he called to the worship of God, our Creator of all that exists. This was the same message of all the prophets, from Adam all the way to Muhammad, peace be upon them all.



Peace.
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AB517
04-12-2007, 03:01 PM
PS: The Qur'an is only Qur'an if it is in the arabic language, there are many other translations which are simply translations - therefore they are prone to error. However there are no contradictions whatsoever in the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace be upon him) never called people to worship him, he called to the worship of God, our Creator of all that exists. This was the same message of all the prophets, from Adam all the way to Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

Can this be said for bible too?
I only know one langue so ill go to the library.

Thank You AB517

There were three child eating dinner. One child said "eat the vetables that will make you healthy. His friend said "no no no ... eat the potatoes that will make you healthy. The third child said "both of you are wrong ... just eat the meat!" The mother standing over them them said in a loving mannor "my children ... eat your dinner."
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NobleMuslimUK
04-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Very interesting a lot of people want to believe in Allah SWT and not follow Islam. Well in the Holy Quran one verse comes to mind clearly, that no other religion except Islam will be accepted.
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- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 03:20 PM
Hey AB517. :)


God would want mankind to follow what He wills right? And if that is the case, He would send us messengers who with come with clear proofs to explain to us what is wrong or right.


If we simply defined what is wrong or right ourselves, do you think that this is okay in the sight of God?

Maybe if we put it this way, it may make more sense. If you were looking after some children and told them that they should do certain acts in order to be rewarded, and the reason for these acts would be to better ones relationship with the Sustainer and Provider, while helping one build their relationship with others among mankind. If they followed what you told them, you would be pleased with them right?

However, now imagine some child comes upto you and starts saying that you have to reward me for what i do, and i'm going to disobey you since i know what is right and i prefer my own laws over what you have told me to do. Would you be pleased with this person? And if they disobeyed you - do they deserve your reward?



Allaah is the Most Merciful and He continues bestowing blessings upon mankind even though the majority are ungrateful to Him since they disbelieve in Him and His Messengers [who all called to the worship and obedience of Him.] The word 'kufr' in the arabic language means disbelief, that is why you may have heard many disbelievers being called 'kaafir (singular) /kuffaar' (plural.) However, in the arabic language - the same word means to be ungrateful. To be ungrateful to God for all that He has given you, yet you still prefer disbelief over belief?


We know that there have been many messengers sent by God, all with the same message - there is none worthy of worship - obedience besides God. Yet mankind has differed, even though the clear proofs have come to them.

God's Messengers warned the people that there would come a day when God would raise us all back to life, the final hour. On the day when mankind would be like scattered moths, and every person would be questioned about his/her actions in this life. Did they obey the Messenger sent to them by Allaah? Those who obeyed the Messenger would have a great reward from their Lord, gardens beneath which rivers flow, in the presence of their Lord, God is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. Whereas those who belied the truth and rejected the messengers would be punished a severe punishment, the fire is a humiliating punishment for those who felt too arrogant to submit to their Lord.



You may accept the bible as a holy book, however you have to ask yourself why you use the king james version? Is it because someone told you to, why not use another version? Why would God's revelation be in many different languages yet not remain in the original?

The praise is for Allaah who sent His final Messenger with the truth, a book which clarified what came before, and cleared the misconceptions the people of old had. This book is the Criterion, the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the speech of God conveyed to His final messenger, through the ark Angel Gabriel.


You may want to read some translations, here's some good links which may be of some benefit:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
http://www.beconvinced.com/
http://islamtomorrow.com/
http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=3



If you need any help or have any questions, please do ask. I hope i'm not dragging this on too long, maybe you could explain the main areas which you're confused about and we could focus on giving you the true islamic stance to it.


Thanks again for your patience. :)



Regards.
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cali dude
04-12-2007, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Very interesting a lot of people want to believe in Allah SWT and not follow Islam. Well in the Holy Quran one verse comes to mind clearly, that no other religion except Islam will be accepted.
Does it really make sense to say that no other religion will be accepted? Apparently there have been religions before Islam. Are you saying that those religions didn't know about God and just made up stories about God?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Does it really make sense to say that no other religion will be accepted? Apparently there have been religions before Islam. Are you saying that those religions didn't know about God and just made up stories about God?

There have never been religions before Islaam - Islaam means submission, and the religion of the first human Adam was also Islaam, so was the religion of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus son of Mary and all the 124,000 prophets of Allaah. Submission to your Creator and Provider.

All the true Prophets of Allaah called to Islaam, none is worthy of worship except Allaah Alone, and to Him you will be returned to be judged on all your deeds. Then those who obeyed the Messengers and submitted to Allaah will be rewarded for their good, whereas those who disbelieved and rejected the Messenger will be punished since their deeds were in vain, why? Because they took God's Message in jest and never did any good to please their Creator. Instead they were ungrateful and attributed partners to Him in worship.
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 04:55 PM
So when you refer to Islam, you are not necessarily talking about following footsteps of Mohammad, instead you are simply talking about submitting to God.

Is this correct?
Reply

------
04-12-2007, 04:57 PM
:salamext:

Islam is a combination of submitting yourself to God, and then following in the footsteps of Muhammad (SAW).
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
So when you refer to Islam, you are not necessarily talking about following footsteps of Mohammad, instead you are simply talking about submitting to God.

Is this correct?

To submit to God, you need to obey His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) There are no more prophets of Allaah after him and therefore we need belief aswell as action for a deed to be accepted in the sight of Allaah. If either is missing - then it shows that the person hasn't truely submitted to God since they are taking a pick and mix of God's message.



Regards.
Reply

AB517
04-12-2007, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
There have never been religions before Islaam - Islaam means submission, and the religion of the first human Adam was also Islaam, so was the religion of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus son of Mary and all the 124,000 prophets of Allaah. Submission to your Creator and Provider.

All the true Prophets of Allaah called to Islaam, none is worthy of worship except Allaah Alone, and to Him you will be returned to be judged on all your deeds. Then those who obeyed the Messengers and submitted to Allaah will be rewarded for their good, whereas those who disbelieved and rejected the Messenger will be punished since their deeds were in vain, why? Because they took God's Message in jest and never did any good to please their Creator. Instead they were ungrateful and attributed partners to Him in worship.
No, thank you for your patients, all of you.

Do I as a Christian fit this description? Do other religions fulfill these requirements?

I submit to its greatness, I listen to the profits, and I try and do good deeds for all of his creation. Submission is an important piece in Christianity.

About the only difference I see (so far … I am new) is that I think God will keep talking, showing, and hopefully guiding us so that we may grow into the loving beings he wants us to be. I also believe this is only a small difference, and that the love and good deeds of all enlightened people and those that follow them are the actions that bind us to the likeness of our father.

Would a loving God condemn a person for such a slight difference?

I await my judgment with a childlike anticipation, for I know we all will walk into heaven arm and arm singing the praise’s god, each in their own voice. Our father will welcome us home in the manor that each of his children’s hearts, minds and bodies will embrace like a child embraces their mother.

Am I way off with this?

AB517
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
To submit to God, you need to obey His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) There are no more prophets of Allaah after him and therefore we need belief aswell as action for a deed to be accepted in the sight of Allaah. If either is missing - then it shows that the person hasn't truely submitted to God since they are taking a pick and mix of God's message.



Regards.
Did Adam and Eve follow Mohammad?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Did Adam and Eve follow Mohammad?

Adam was a prophet of God after he repented for his mistake, and therefore what he was commanded to do - his progeny followed him in that. Therefore they were muslim since they obeyed the Prophet and submitted to Allaah.
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Adam was a prophet of God after he repented for his mistake, and therefore what he was commanded to do - his progeny followed him in that. Therefore they were muslim since they obeyed the Prophet and submitted to Allaah.
Since Adam was a prophet, he had created a complete religion, then why does it become important to follow Mohammad?
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- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by AB517
No, thank you for your patients, all of you.
Thanks. :)


Do I as a Christian fit this description? Do other religions fulfill these requirements?

You have to ask yourself, do you truelly believe in the message of Christ son of Mary (peace be upon him)?


They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.


[Qur'an The Table Spread 5: 72-78]

I submit to its greatness, I listen to the profits, and I try and do good deeds for all of his creation. Submission is an important piece in Christianity.

Then why not submit to the Creator of the worlds? This is the true message of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.) Never did he tell the people to worship him. Even check in the bible yourself.


"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your Name, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." (Luke 11:2; Matt. 6:9-10)

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of Him Who sent me." (John 5:30)

"No one knows about the Day or Hour, not even the angels in heaven, not the son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32)



About the only difference I see (so far … I am new) is that I think God will keep talking, showing, and hopefully guiding us so that we may grow into the loving beings he wants us to be. I also believe this is only a small difference, and that the love and good deeds of all enlightened people and those that follow them are the actions that bind us to the likeness of our father.

God has revealed to His final Messenger the love and Mercy;

And remember! your Lord caused to be declared (publicly): "If ye are grateful [by believing and submitting to Allaah], I will add more (favours) unto you; But if ye show ingratitude [and disbelieve], truly My punishment is terrible indeed." [Qur'an 14:7]

Would a loving God condemn a person for such a slight difference?

God is inviting us towards His paradise, and if we submit to Him and obey His final Messenger, then we will be rewarded an endless reward. But those who turn away when the clear message is given to them, why should they be rewarded when they take God's message in jest?



I await my judgment with a childlike anticipation, for I know we all will walk into heaven arm and arm singing the praise’s god, each in their own voice. Our father will welcome us home in the manor that each of his children’s hearts, minds and bodies will embrace like a child embraces their mother.

The Day of Judgement draws near, and man will be questioned about his deeds. Did they obey the Messenger? If not - why not?

We can't take a pick and mix of the messengers but we accept them all, and God's final Messenger was Muhammad (peace be upon him) who confirmed the message of Moses, Jesus, and cleared the misconceptions the people after them had. How about reading the Qur'an to truely understand the message? :) If you are sincere, God will guide you:


“and ask Allaah of His Bounty. Surely, Allaah is Ever All‑Knower of everything”

[al-Nisa’ 4:32]




Allaah the Almighty said:


“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”


Narrated by Muslim (2577).






Am I way off with this?

AB517

If you are sincere, then God will guide you. How many people are they who were sincere and they were guided on the straight path, and how much people ignored the clear proofs when they came to them, and they lost the great reward that Allaah had in store for them.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-12-2007, 05:22 PM
online dawah requires too much patience, wallahi how do we know if the people are listening? How do we know if they are mocking us, we cant even modify ourselves to suit the situation!!




fi-sab, utmost respect, keep it up akhee :)
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Since Adam was a prophet, he had created a complete religion, then why does it become important to follow Mohammad?

He never created a completely new religion since he was the first human. He submitted to Allaah and so did his family. Which shows that the first religion among mankind was Islaam.

As time progressed - people turned away from the religion of Allaah and started worshipping idols, although they thought them to be saints. This is when Prophet Noah was sent - to call them back to the original religion of submission to Allaah.


As time has progressed, people have strayed from the true religion of the previous Messenger, so Allaah sent them a prophet. So Allaah sent them a warner and giver of glad tidings, those who believed in the prophet and submitted to Allaah's call were saved, but those who disbelieved were destroyed since they never fulfilled the purpose of creation and rejected Allaah's messengers arrogantly. After them others inherited the land and took their place. Satan would come to them again to make them associate partners with Allaah in worship - even though he can't force no-one to do anything. The people had a freedom of choice, some followed their way while others obeyed the Prophets, the believers were persecuted for this by their people. Those who disbelieved used the excuse that our forefathers did the same. Again - the warner [of the consequences of disbelief and hellfire] and giver of glad tidings [of Allaah's mercy and reward] was sent - some rejected while others accepted.


This has been happening since the beginning of mankind, and satan called the people to disbelief out of envy for the children of Adam. Those who believed & submitted will be rewarded with an endless reward, since that is the eternal home for those who submit to Allaah, the home where Adam and his wife will return to which Allaah has promised for His believing servants. However, those who rejected the message of Allaah and chose disbelief over belief were warned by the Messenger, and if they persisted in their disbelief - they would remain in the fire forever. Since they felt too arrogant to submit to Allaah - their own Creator! and to obey His Messenger.

We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. [Qur'an 14:4]

We know the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said that there have been over 124,000 prophets who were sent by God as is authentically recorded in Musnad Ahmad.


And Muhammad is Allaah's final Messenger (peace be upon him), as Allaah says in His final message in the Qur'an:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. [Qur'an 33:40]

If you have more questions - please don't hesitate to ask. :)




Regards.
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
He never created a completely new religion since he was the first human.
What exactly do you mean? He never created a completely new religion because a religion existed already or are you saying that he didn't create a religion that was complete?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
What exactly do you mean? He never created a completely new religion because a religion existed already or are you saying that he didn't create a religion that was complete?

He never created a new religion since the angels already worshipped Allaah, and Islaam is submission - therefore he was fulfilling the purpose he was created for. Since he was the first man, the first religion revealed to mankind is Islaam.
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
He never created a new religion since the angels already worshipped Allaah, and Islaam is submission - therefore he was fulfilling the purpose he was created for. Since he was the first man, the first religion revealed to mankind is Islaam.
Was the religion revealed to Adam same as religion revealed to Mohammad?

By the way, how years ago were Adam and Eve were created?
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- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Was the religion revealed to Adam same as religion revealed to Mohammad?

The religion was the same - there is none worthy of worship except your Creator, your Sustainer - Allaah, the Lord of all that exists.

However, every prophet who came to his nation may have had different social laws due to the difference of the time-frame, location etc. But the call was the same.



By the way, how years ago were Adam and Eve were created?

I don't know, we havn't been given an exact number since that isn't required for us to realise that Islaam is the truth. Because whether we knew when they were alive or we never, it doesn't really harm or benefit us does it? :)



Regards.
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The religion was the same - there is none worthy of worship except your Creator, your Sustainer - Allaah, the Lord of all that exists.

However, every prophet who came to his nation may have had different social laws due to the difference of the time-frame, location etc. But the call was the same.
So what you are saying is that the main thing common in religion revealed to Adam and Mohammad was to submit to God although there could be social differences. Am I correct?

Did both, Mohammad and Adam, preach the same way to submit to God?

Did the social differences make a religion right or wrong?



Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I don't know, we havn't been given an exact number since that isn't required for us to realise that Islaam is the truth. Because whether we knew when they were alive or we never, it doesn't really harm or benefit us does it? :)

Regards.
It's important to find out the time-frame because apparently there was Hinduism on the other side of the world, which apparently existed even 5000 years ago...
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- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
So what you are saying is that the main thing common in religion revealed to Adam and Mohammad was to submit to God although there could be social differences. Am I correct?

All the Prophets of Allaah recieved revelation from Him, and therefore they worshipped Him in the way Allaah prescribed them to worship Him. So yeah, there were certain differences for example for the Children of Isra'eel [some of the nation who followed the law of Prophet Moses - the spoils of war were forbidden for them, however they are permitted in this ummah [nation.]] And similarly alcohol wasn't forbidden for some nations, whereas it is forbidden in the ummah of Allaah's final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

So the legislations differed because Allaah knew best what the weaknesses of each ummah was, however each prophet called to the worship of Allaah Alone, they warned their people of the Day of Judgement, they told them that if they believed and submitted - they would be rewarded with Paradise by Allaah, and if anyone rejected and rebelled against Allaah - then Allaah is not in need of them and they will be thrown into the fire for disobeying Allaah and His Messenger. We seek refuge in Allaah from that.


Did both, Mohammad and Adam, preach the same way to submit to God?
It's explained above.

Did the social differences make a religion right or wrong?

Whatever messenger is sent to his people, these people have to obey the Messenger sent to them. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is Allaah's final Messenger, and therefore anyone who comes after he recieved revelation - then they have to obey him. There is no other option since we can't take a pick and mix of which messenger/prophet we follow. Since that is taking Allaah's message in jest and mockery. Those who mock Allaah's message and messenger and die without submitting and repenting, then they have disbelieved, and the disbelievers will be in the fire, with no helper to abide therein forever.



It's important to find out the time-frame because apparently there was Hinduism on the other side of the world, which apparently existed even 5000 years ago...

It was way longer than hinduism since we know that Prophet Ibraheem [Abraham] (peace be upon him) was alive longer than 5000years ago, even the jews today can testify to this. We know that there have been prophets before him and we also know that Prophet Ibraheem was a descendant of Prophet Noah, and Prophet Noah was of the first messengers of Allaah. Therefore this earth and the prophets have been coming way longer than just 5000 years ago. And Allaah knows best.



Regards.
Reply

cali dude
04-12-2007, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
All the Prophets of Allaah recieved revelation from Him, and therefore they worshipped Him in the way Allaah prescribed them to worship Him.
Was the way prescribed to Adam the same as the way prescribed to Mohammad?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
So yeah, there were certain differences for example for the Children of Isra'eel [some of the nation who followed the law of Prophet Moses - the spoils of war were forbidden for them, however they are permitted in this ummah [nation.]] And similarly alcohol wasn't forbidden for some nations, whereas it is forbidden in the ummah of Allaah's final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him.)
Does it really make sense to say that they all had the same message of God and yet the message was different?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Whatever messenger is sent to his people, these people have to obey the Messenger sent to them. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is Allaah's final Messenger, and therefore anyone who comes after he recieved revelation - then they have to obey him. There is no other option since we can't take a pick and mix of which messenger/prophet we follow. Since that is taking Allaah's message in jest and mockery. Those who mock Allaah's message and messenger and die without submitting and repenting, then they have disbelieved, and the disbelievers will be in the fire, with no helper to abide therein forever.
If there is one way to submit to God, how would it matter which prophet one followed? You are actually following the way to submit to God, not necessarily the prophet. Why should it matter? Why should the way to submit in Islam be any different than any of the other religions before Islam?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Was the way prescribed to Adam the same as the way prescribed to Mohammad?

Some of the social laws probably differed, like i said previously - due to the different circumstances.


Does it really make sense to say that they all had the same message of God and yet the message was different?
Are you purposelly ignoring what i say? I've mentioned that the social laws differed due to the different circumstances, however Allaah told His Messengers how He wanted to be worshipped - and the call of the Messengers was the same. To shun all false deities and to obey Allaah and the Messenger, the Messenger who had clear proofs and told the people to obey for their own benefit, while the messenger asked for no profit from his people.


If there is one way to submit to God, how would it matter which prophet one followed?

You are actually following the way to submit to God, not necessarily the prophet. Why should it matter? Why should the way to submit in Islam be any different than any of the other religions before Islam?

Because Allaah chose His final messenger to be the One whose law we follow after him, all the previous laws have been distorted as we can see today. And due to that - we can't follow something which has been distorted by the people since the prophets only came to their own people, unlike Allaah's final Messenger.


For example if we take the bible, we see that Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him is being ordered to:

“Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel!” Matthew 10:6]


Whereas Muhammad (peace be upon him) is being told:

"Say: 'O mankind! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth."
(Qur'an 7:158)



You see the difference? :)



Regards.

Reply

England
04-12-2007, 07:40 PM
I don't care what Islam says, Buddhism says, Sikhism says, Judaism says.

I am not going to hell as the God I know isn't evil.
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- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 07:42 PM
God isn't evil ^ You're judged on your own actions and whether you obeyed the Messenger He sent to you. If you obeyed and did good, then you did good for your own sake [and you will be rewarded for that], but if you rejected God's Messengers', were ungrateful and disobeyed - then you do so for your own loss.

God is not injust to any of His servants. However man is unjust to his ownself.


Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-12-2007, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
God isn't evil ^ You're judged on your own actions and whether you obeyed the Messenger He sent to you. If you obeyed and did good, then you did good for your own sake [and you will be rewarded for that], but if you rejected God's Messengers', were ungrateful and disobeyed - then you do so for your own loss.

God is not injust to any of His servants. However man is unjust to his ownself.


Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).
:salamext:

Second on that, brother! :thumbs_up

:wasalamex
Reply

Kittygyal
04-12-2007, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by England
I don't care what Islam says, Buddhism says, Sikhism says, Judaism says.

I am not going to hell as the God I know isn't evil.
Hi.

edit
Bye!
Reply

England
04-12-2007, 07:52 PM
I've done good throughout my life, done deeds. God won't send me to hell because I didn't go down on my knees 5 times a day. God, I am sure, is proud of the way I have lived my life and my way of life.

Any religion that preaches that God will send you to hell because you didn't get down and pray to Him is false. I can say that with full confidence because like I said, God isn't evil.
Reply

England
04-12-2007, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
Edited as requested.
You read my comment wrong. Being told that God will send me to hell because I'm not a muslim needs that response. That is insulting to God itself. Anyone that would even think of that would portray Him as evil. He isn't and I'm not going to hell.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by England
I've done good throughout my life, done deeds. God won't send me to hell because I didn't go down on my knees 5 times a day. God, I am sure, is proud of the way I have lived my life and my way of life.

Any religion that preaches that God will send you to hell because you didn't get down and pray to Him is false. I can say that with full confidence because like I said, God isn't evil.

Did you do good to please God alone? Sincerely to gain His reward? If a person does deeds in order to gain favours off others besides Allaah, then they're in a way associating partners with God in the acts of worship that they're performing.

So for example if you do a favour for someone hoping to get a favour in return from them in the future - then that isn't really hoping for God's reward is it? It's more as in you want to get a reward off that person in the future.


Also - if you've read the bible, you'll see many situations where Jesus son of Mary, Moses, and all the other prophets of God fell down on their faces - you know why? Because they were bowing down to God. God tells us how He wants to be worshipped, and this is a fact - in paradise God will continously ask His servants what they want since these people are guests of Allaah in His Paradise, the ordering is only in this life so we become successful in this life & the hereafter. So justice and fairness is established among mankind.



Regards. :)
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
04-12-2007, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Does it really make sense to say that no other religion will be accepted? Apparently there have been religions before Islam. Are you saying that those religions didn't know about God and just made up stories about God?
Islam Means submission to the Will of God, if you dont submit yourself to the will of God why would He accept you ?:rollseyes


Get this:

Islam was sent to:
Noah Abraham, Lot,Salih, Shuaib(jethro), Musa(Moses),Isa(Jesus),yusuf(joseph),Jaqub(Jacob), Ishaq(Isaac),Idris,Ismail,Ayub,
Harun(Aaron),Dawud(David)Sulayman(Solomon), Ilyas(Elijah) Al-Yasa (Elisha) Yunus(Jonah) Zakariya,Yahya(Joshua)

ALL Prophets of God

Jesus's message was misunderstood, he came to re-establish what Moses was given, he was rejected. and a people whom he came NOT to( christians) accepted him but in a wrong way.

These 'other' religions were in fact ALL Islam but in different times and ages.

And Muhammad (SAW), the Final one... :)

Got it ???
Peace
Reply

AB517
04-12-2007, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Did you do good to please God alone? Sincerely to gain His reward? If a person does deeds in order to gain favours off others besides Allaah, then they're in a way associating partners with God in the acts of worship that they're performing.

So for example if you do a favour for someone hoping to get a favour in return from them in the future - then that isn't really hoping for God's reward is it? It's more as in you want to get a reward off that person in the future.


Also - if you've read the bible, you'll see many situations where Jesus son of Mary, Moses, and all the other prophets of God fell down on their faces - you know why? Because they were bowing down to God. God tells us how He wants to be worshipped, and this is a fact - in paradise God will continously ask His servants what they want since these people are guests of Allaah in His Paradise, the ordering is only in this life so we become successful in this life & the hereafter. So justice and fairness is established among mankind.



Regards. :)
You are right about quoting, so that means you have a good memory. That’s not what he meant. Perception is the evils one's way to distort lies so that they appear truthful. Christians, Jews, and Moslem alike do this.

He meant people doing good for the sake of being good to a fellow child (or any creation) of god. We fear no reprisals from God when we walk together in the light of God.

How joyous will it be when a Jew, Moslem, Christian, Buddhist, and all others walk arm in arm and stand before God as one being to sing its praises?

AB517
Reply

England
04-12-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Did you do good to please God alone? Sincerely to gain His reward? If a person does deeds in order to gain favours off others besides Allaah, then they're in a way associating partners with God in the acts of worship that they're performing.

So for example if you do a favour for someone hoping to get a favour in return from them in the future - then that isn't really hoping for God's reward is it? It's more as in you want to get a reward off that person in the future.


Also - if you've read the bible, you'll see many situations where Jesus son of Mary, Moses, and all the other prophets of God fell down on their faces - you know why? Because they were bowing down to God. God tells us how He wants to be worshipped, and this is a fact - in paradise God will continously ask His servants what they want since these people are guests of Allaah in His Paradise, the ordering is only in this life so we become successful in this life & the hereafter. So justice and fairness is established among mankind.



Regards. :)
I don't expect favours for people in return. Most of them I have never seen again therefore there isn't a chance of a returned favour but nevertheless hell isn't coming my way. I don't pray to God unless I need His help. "God tells us how He wants to be worshipped" is a fact? It isn't fact. It's religion. There is no facts in religion but beliefs.
My beliefs are all spiritualism. The people I've known to have passed away weren't muslims and they're not in hell either. You should check through spiritualism, you'll be surprised.

I'll tell you who will go to hell though.... terrorists.
Reply

al-fateh
04-12-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Dont trust Al-Fateh. Only God can judge.
have i quoted anything but the Quran?

u dont need to trsut me, for i look for no praise, i am simply a humble servant of Allah and my loyalty is to Islam

like i said, u dont need to trust me, but trust in the words of the Quran, which is the words of Allah.
Reply

al-fateh
04-12-2007, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
and God has set certain requirements for jannah. if you dont meet them you dont get admittance into heaven.

ofcourse akhi...but some people refuse to admit it, and they think religion is a play for the mean time. Allah (swt) clearly said:

55 60 1 -

English Yusuf Ali: [55:60]
Is there any Reward for Good - other than Good?



subhanallah

Allah has clearly said

3 19 1 -

English Yusuf Ali: [3:19]
The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

we dont doubt in what Allah has ordained to us in the Quran

2 2 1 -

English Yusuf Ali: [2:2]
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;


there is exceptions on youth , and people who died without hearing the name of Islam, they are not accountable, for they dont know the message. Allah will judge them accodringly to what good or bad they did in their life, Allah is most Just.

like Moses replied to Pharoah

20 51 1 -

English Yusuf Ali: [20:51]
(Pharaoh) said: "What then is the condition of previous generations?"

20 52 1 -

English Yusuf Ali: [20:52]
He replied: "The knowledge of that is with my Lord, duly recorded: my Lord never errs, nor forgets,-

:w:
Reply

- Qatada -
04-12-2007, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by England
I don't expect favours for people in return. Most of them I have never seen again therefore there isn't a chance of a returned favour but nevertheless hell isn't coming my way.

If you believe in God, then do you do these favours in order to get His reward?


I don't pray to God unless I need His help. "God tells us how He wants to be worshipped" is a fact? It isn't fact. It's religion. There is no facts in religion but beliefs.

So you believe that God would create us and then not tell us how we should live our lives, what is good/bad etc? Or would he leave it upto our cultures which are continouslly changing all the time in their 'morals' anyway?



My beliefs are all spiritualism. The people I've known to have passed away weren't muslims and they're not in hell either. You should check through spiritualism, you'll be surprised.

Only God knows who will be rewarded or punished, and we hope for His reward. However, we keep our duty to God and obey His Messengers' since we can only find out what truely is good and bad by seeing their example. Without an example to follow - we're simply wandering in the darkness with no light. But Allaah has sent us a guidance [the Qur'an] which is a light that guides man to the truth.

If we're good to the creation, shouldn't we also be thankful to God for the good He bestowed upon us? We should, so we follow the examples of the Prophets like Jesus son of Mary, Moses, Abraham, Noah, refer to the christian scripture and you'll see that they submitted to God. Since being good to the creation isn't sufficient on its own. Being thankful to the Creator and doing good expecting His reward is also important. Since one will only get their reward off the one they did the good for on the Day of Recompense.



I'll tell you who will go to hell though.... terrorists.

Depends on what you mean by terrorists, since many acts we see on the media today aren't a part of islaam anyway. But yeah - those who kill innocents should repent sincerely to God and submit to Him whole-heartedly, and they will find God the Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. :)



Regards.
Reply

England
04-12-2007, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If you believe in God, then do you do these favours in order to get His reward?
No I do it because it is the person I am. I don't always think about God. I'm not religious.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
So you believe that God would create us and then not tell us how we should live our lives, what is good/bad etc? Or would he leave it upto our cultures which are continouslly changing all the time in their 'morals' anyway?
Of course we have rules but I don't think worshipping is one of them. There is "the spirit world." If you're bad you do not enter and that would be a murderer, paedophile etc.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If we're good to the creation, shouldn't we also be thankful to God for the good He bestowed upon us? We should, so we follow the examples of the Prophets like Jesus son of Mary, Moses, Abraham, Noah, refer to the christian scripture and you'll see that they submitted to God. Since being good to the creation isn't sufficient on its own. Being thankful to the Creator and doing good expecting His reward is also important. Since one will only get their reward off the one they did the good for on the Day of Recompense.
I'm thankful to God and He knows it but I don't think it's imperative for me to get down on my knees and worship Him. Same with my parents. I'm thankful they gave birth to me but I don't worship them, they know I'm thankful.


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Depends on what you mean by terrorists, since many acts we see on the media today aren't a part of islaam anyway. But yeah - those who kill innocents should repent sincerely to God and submit to Him whole-heartedly, and they will find God the Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. :)
Anyone that kills for no reason at all will go to hell.
Reply

------
04-13-2007, 08:25 AM
Anyone that kills for no reason at all will go to hell.
:salamext:

Except those who repent sincerely and don't do it again.

Allahu Aalim. (Allah knows best.)
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by England
No I do it because it is the person I am. I don't always think about God. I'm not religious.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
[Qur'an 49:13]


Righteous in that verse refers to the one who has the most taqwa.

Taqwa:
piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.



Of course we have rules but I don't think worshipping is one of them. There is "the spirit world." If you're bad you do not enter and that would be a murderer, paedophile etc.
So you keep your duty to the creation and not to the Creator? The only reason you can do good is because God bestowed upon you all that you have, so shouldn't you be thankful to Him for that and therefore submit to Him?


And remember! your Lord caused to be declared (publicly): "If ye are grateful [by believing and obeying the Messenger], I will add more (favours) unto you; But if ye show ingratitude [and disbelieve], truly My punishment is terrible indeed." [Qur'an Abraham 14:7]


I'm thankful to God and He knows it but I don't think it's imperative for me to get down on my knees and worship Him. Same with my parents. I'm thankful they gave birth to me but I don't worship them, they know I'm thankful.
Who is more pious in the sight of God, you or Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them)? If Jesus bowed down to God, and other prophets did also - don't you think you need to bow down and worship God also?



Anyone that kills for no reason at all will go to hell.

However if they repent, submit and do righteous deeds - Allaah will forgive them and grant them an endless reward. Even if george bush did the same, and even if osama bin ladin did. Allaah is prepared to forgive mankind for their mistakes, so long as they submit to Him and obey His final Messenger (peace be upon him) before death overtakes them.
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Some of the social laws probably differed, like i said previously - due to the different circumstances.

Are you purposelly ignoring what i say? I've mentioned that the social laws differed due to the different circumstances, however Allaah told His Messengers how He wanted to be worshipped - and the call of the Messengers was the same. To shun all false deities and to obey Allaah and the Messenger, the Messenger who had clear proofs and told the people to obey for their own benefit, while the messenger asked for no profit from his people.
No, I wasn't ignoring what you said, simply trying to get you to be on the same page because I have seen in past that you would say something and then you would ask to prove it you that you said it even though I would paste the quote right in front of you.

But this is my point. A prophet's life style would not be affected by social circumstances. A true prophet would preach and practice only the truth. So, if Jesus and Mohammad were both true prophets, then they would both teach exactly the same thing. It simply could not be true that one of them said that drinking alcohol was OK and the other one said that alcohol was not OK.

So, if we know the truth, why would it matter which prophet you followed or followed no prophet at all as long as you practice the truth?


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Because Allaah chose His final messenger to be the One whose law we follow after him, all the previous laws have been distorted as we can see today. And due to that - we can't follow something which has been distorted by the people since the prophets only came to their own people, unlike Allaah's final Messenger.


For example if we take the bible, we see that Jesus son of Mary, peace be upon him is being ordered to:

“Go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel!” Matthew 10:6]


Whereas Muhammad (peace be upon him) is being told:

"Say: 'O mankind! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth."
(Qur'an 7:158)



You see the difference? :)



Regards.
I am a little confused here. Mohammad did go his own people as well, or at least the people who believed him. In Islam, non-Muslims are not to be treated the same way as Muslims. So, Islam is designed only for the benefit of Muslims, Mohammad's "own people".
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
However if they repent, submit and do righteous deeds - Allaah will forgive them and grant them an endless reward. Even if george bush did the same, and even if osama bin ladin did. Allaah is prepared to forgive mankind for their mistakes, so long as they submit to Him and obey His final Messenger (peace be upon him) before death overtakes them.
This for sure caught my eye. So what you are saying is that you could commit any crime in the world as long as you repent.

What an excuse to commit crimes on humanity!!!
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
No, I wasn't ignoring what you said, simply trying to get you to be on the same page because I have seen in past that you would say something and then you would ask to prove it you that you said it even though I would paste the quote right in front of you.
You never, thats why i used to ask. :)


But this is my point. A prophet's life style would not be affected by social circumstances. A true prophet would preach and practice only the truth. So, if Jesus and Mohammad were both true prophets, then they would both teach exactly the same thing. It simply could not be true that one of them said that drinking alcohol was OK and the other one said that alcohol was not OK.

I've explained before that the historical and social context differed a great deal, thats why laws within a certain nation were different. For instance God may have known that the spoils of war will make the children of Isra'eel extravagant and therefore it should be forbidden for them so there is less harm.

The same way God knows that alcohol may be a big trial for the whole world, and therefore the prohibition was more strict in this regard. Because alcohol may not have been such a big problem for the Israelites for example compared to people from different areas of the world. You'll see that there are many accidents and harmful effects when people take alcohol, even in countries like the US. So the prohibition was more important in the sight of Allaah for this ummah in this regard compared to an ummah of the past which was for a specific set of people only.



So, if we know the truth, why would it matter which prophet you followed or followed no prophet at all as long as you practice the truth?

Because all other Prophets revelations have been distorted, and the only divine revelation which remains the truth is the message revealed to Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

If you want proof if it still exists, heres the copy in the Museum of Turkey today:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html



I am a little confused here. Mohammad did go his own people as well, or at least the people who believed him. In Islam, non-Muslims are not to be treated the same way as Muslims. So, Islam is designed only for the benefit of Muslims, Mohammad's "own people".
You really think so?


Try looking at the rights of non muslims and also muslims in an Islamic State:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...democracy.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...em-rights.html


Muhammad (peace be upon him) came to all of mankind as Allaah has stated in the Qur'an:

"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." (Qur'an 7:158)



And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Regards.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
This for sure caught my eye. So what you are saying is that you could commit any crime in the world as long as you repent.
Originally Posted by cali dude

What an excuse to commit crimes on humanity!!!

Part of repentance is to feel regret for your sin, imagine you had commited many sins and you felt that you had wronged yourself and others.

Well thats when Allaah shows to His servants that He is prepared to forgive them so long as they are sincere. The Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him said that all the children of Adam sin, but the best of sinners are those that repent. Don't tell me that you've never sinned in your life.


To repent means to have the intention not to commit the sin again, its to be regretful for ones errors. And if the person turns to Allaah in forgiveness and submission before death overtakes them - then Allaah is the Most Merciful. No matter who the person is. Since we are all the servants of Allaah.

The Noble Qur'an Al-Baqarah 2:30-38

30. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."

31. And He taught Adam all the names (of everything), then He showed them to the angels and said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful."

32. They (angels) said: "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise."

33. He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the Ghaib (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?"

34. And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam." [in obedience to Allaah]. And they prostrated except Iblîs (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allâh).

35. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers)."

36. Then the Shaitân (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."

37. Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.

38. We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.


Our father is an example to us all that if we sin - we should regret it, repent and Allaah is prepared to forgive us for our errors.


The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said:

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).



However if someone continously persists in sin, and disbelieves when the clear signs have come to them - then why should they be forgiven? If they shun their false deities and turn to Allaah in submission before death overtakes them - then Allaah will forgive them, however if they die in a state of associating partners with Allaah, then they are being unjust to themselves, being ungrateful to their Creator, and therefore why should they be rewarded from Him? Infact they should be punished since they were ungrateful and rebellious to the One who sustained them and gave them all they had in this world.



The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said: Allah Almighty has said:

The son of Adam denied Me and he had no right to do so. And he reviled Me and he had no right to do so. As for his denying Me, it is his saying: He will not remake me as He made me at first (1) - and the initial creation [of him] is no easier for Me than remaking him. As for his reviling Me, it is his saying: Allah has taken to Himself a son, while I am the One, the Everlasting Refuge. I begot not nor was I begotten, and there is none comparable to Me.

(1) i.e., bring me back to life after death.

It was related by al-Bukhari (also by an-Nasa'i).
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
You never, thats why i used to ask. :)
No, actually it was more like that you never acknowledged even though I gave you the quotes...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I've explained before that the historical and social context differed a great deal, thats why laws within a certain nation were different. For instance God may have known that the spoils of war will make the children of Isra'eel extravagant and therefore it should be forbidden for them so there is less harm.

The same way God knows that alcohol may be a big trial for the whole world, and therefore the prohibition was more strict in this regard. Because alcohol may not have been such a big problem for the Israelites for example compared to people from different areas of the world. You'll see that there are many accidents and harmful effects when people take alcohol, even in countries like the US. So the prohibition was more important in the sight of Allaah for this ummah in this regard compared to an ummah of the past which was for a specific set of people only.

Because all other Prophets revelations have been distorted, and the only divine revelation which remains the truth is the message revealed to Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

If you want proof if it still exists, heres the copy in the Museum of Turkey today:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html
So what you are saying is that the message of prophets was the same but it was distorted because of social interpretations?

Still, if the message was the same, all people really need to do is to find out the true message was and follow the message. Then what's point of classifying yourself as Muslim or Christian or Jew as long as you know the true message and follow it?

Also what if someone practices something that's even better?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
You really think so?

Try looking at the rights of non muslims and also muslims in an Islamic State:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...democracy.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...em-rights.html


Muhammad (peace be upon him) came to all of mankind as Allaah has stated in the Qur'an:

"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." (Qur'an 7:158)



And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Regards.
Maybe....
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Well thats when Allaah shows to His servants that He is prepared to forgive them so long as they are sincere. The Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him said that all the children of Adam sin, but the best of sinners are those that repent. Don't tell me that you've never sinned in your life.
See this is where we are stuck.

When you say that all people sin, does that mean they sinner by nature? If so, it doesn't matter how many times they repent, they are going to keep sinning unless they change their nature, which in turn will change their behaviour. You can keep doing all of the religious stuff you want but unless you change yourself, your personality, your behaviour, the way you do things, it's all useless.

That's why it's important to first understand what you are doing wrong and then change it instead of blindly following a religion.
Reply

England
04-13-2007, 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
[Qur'an 49:13]


Righteous in that verse refers to the one who has the most taqwa.

Taqwa:
piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.





So you keep your duty to the creation and not to the Creator? The only reason you can do good is because God bestowed upon you all that you have, so shouldn't you be thankful to Him for that and therefore submit to Him?


And remember! your Lord caused to be declared (publicly): "If ye are grateful [by believing and obeying the Messenger], I will add more (favours) unto you; But if ye show ingratitude [and disbelieve], truly My punishment is terrible indeed." [Qur'an Abraham 14:7]




Who is more pious in the sight of God, you or Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them)? If Jesus bowed down to God, and other prophets did also - don't you think you need to bow down and worship God also?






However if they repent, submit and do righteous deeds - Allaah will forgive them and grant them an endless reward. Even if george bush did the same, and even if osama bin ladin did. Allaah is prepared to forgive mankind for their mistakes, so long as they submit to Him and obey His final Messenger (peace be upon him) before death overtakes them.
You're sending me all these passages but I'm not reading them. I don't follow Islam and I don't believe in the Quran, especially if it says we're deemed for hell if we don't worship God. We are put on this earth to experience life not to worship and no way will I be sent to hell because of that. God knows I'm thankful and I'm sure he's happy with the way I've lived my life. The only way to get me to believe that we are put here to submit to God will be by God Himself telling me.
Reply

AB517
04-13-2007, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by England
You're sending me all these passages but I'm not reading them. I don't follow Islam and I don't believe in the Quran, especially if it says we're deemed for hell if we don't worship God. We are put on this earth to experience life not to worship and no way will I be sent to hell because of that. God knows I'm thankful and I'm sure he's happy with the way I've lived my life. The only way to get me to believe that we are put here to submit to God will be by God Himself telling me.
England:

I cant PM so I posted this.

I am a Chemistry and Physics guy. I had an awaking that can only be described as “spooky”. There is a huge difference between spirituality and religion.

Thank you
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
No, actually it was more like that you never acknowledged even though I gave you the quotes...

Okay, fair enough.


So what you are saying is that the message of prophets was the same but it was distorted because of social interpretations?

Yes.


Still, if the message was the same, all people really need to do is to find out the true message was and follow the message. Then what's point of classifying yourself as Muslim or Christian or Jew as long as you know the true message and follow it?
Because Moses nor Jesus son of Mary never called themselves christians or jews, they called themselves muslims [a muslim is someone who submits to God.]

And because there message was distorted, we can't really follow a distorted message now can we, since that would mean we're following something which isn't even true.

This is why the Qur'an was revealed - it is the Criterion [Furqaan] to confirm the message of the previous prophets [i.e. none is worthy of worship except Allaah] since the people of the other scriptures are in doubt in regard to what the true message of Allaah was. The final messenger confirmed it and Allaah will save it from being distorted till the Day of Judgement.


Also what if someone practices something that's even better?
There is nothing better since only God's messengers recieve divine revelation from Him, no-one else does since this is what Prophets and Messengers are - those who convey God's whole message. And as stated in Surah Al-Ahzaab [33] in the Qur'an - Muhammad (peace be upon him) is Allaah's final Prophet and Messenger and there will be no more prophets after him.


Maybe....

Kool. :)
Reply

al-fateh
04-13-2007, 05:52 PM
Imaam Ibn Hazm said in his book Maraatib al-Ijmaa’: “Hell is real; it is an abode of torment that will never cease to exist, and its people will never cease to exist, they will remain there without end.”

Al-Tahhaawi said in his ‘Aqeedah: “Paradise and Hell are two created entities that will never cease to exist or come to an end.”

Al-Tahhaawi said in his ‘Aqeedah: “Paradise and Hell are two created entities that will never cease to exist or come to an end.”

5. Al-Maa'idah - (The Table spread with Food)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
5 37 1 - [5:37]
English Yusuf Ali: [5:37]
Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures.

43. Az-Zukhruf - (The Gold Adornment)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
43 75 1 - [43:75]
English Yusuf Ali: [43:75]
Nowise will the (Punishment) be lightened for them, and in despair will they be there overwhelmed.

2. Al-Baqarah - (The Cow)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
2 167 1 - [2:167]
English Yusuf Ali: [2:167]
And those who followed would say: "If only We had one more chance, We would clear ourselves of them, as they have cleared themselves of us." Thus will Allah show them (The fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire.

7. Al-`Araaf - (The Heights)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
7 40 1 - [7:40]
English Yusuf Ali: [7:40]
To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.





35. Faatir - (The Orignator)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
35 36 1 - [35:36]
English Yusuf Ali: [35:36]
But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one!

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Death will come on the Day of Resurrection like a black and white ram, and it will stand between Paradise and Hell. It will be said, ‘O people of Paradise, do you recognize this?’ They will crane their necks and look, and will say, ‘Yes, it is death.’
It will be said, ‘O people of Hell, do you recognize this?’ They will crane their necks and look, and will say, ‘Yes, it is death.’ Then the command will be issued and it will be slaughtered. Then it will be said, ‘O People of Paradise, it is eternal and there is no death. O people of Hell, it is eternal and there is no death.’” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning):


19. Maryam - (Mary)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
19 39 1 - [19:39]
English Yusuf Ali: [19:39]
But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe!

This clear saheeh text leaves no room for doubt concerning this matter, which is that the people of Hell will abide therein forever, and will not die or come out, just as the people of Paradise will abide therein forever.
The commentator of al-Tahhaawiyyah said: “Many reports of the Sunnah indicate that those who said Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah will be brought forth from Hell. The ahaadeeth about intercession clearly indicate that the sinners among the people of Tawheed will be brought forth from Hell and that this applies only to them; if the kuffaar were to be brought forth from it, they would be like the believers, and that contradicts the exclusiveness indicated in the hadeeth.”



With regard to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):


Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
78 23 1 - [78:23]
English Yusuf Ali: [78:23]
They will dwell therein for ages.
Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
78 24 1 - [78:24]
English Yusuf Ali: [78:24]
Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink,
Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
78 25 1 - [78:25]
English Yusuf Ali: [78:25]
Save a boiling fluid and a fluid, dark, murky, intensely cold,
Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
78 26 1 - [78:26]
English Yusuf Ali: [78:26]
A fitting recompense (for them).

what is meant, as al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, is “They will stay in the Fire for as long as those ages last, and these ages will never cease. Every time one age ceases, another will come. Huqub means a lifetime or an age, and (the plural) ahqaab means ages. Hiqbah means a year, the plural of which is hiqab. Huqb means eighty years, or it was said that it means more than that, as we shall see, and the plural is ahqaab. The meaning in this verse is that they will abide therein for the ages of the Hereafter, to which there is no end. The verse does not specifically mention the Hereafter (by saying “the ages of the Hereafter”) because it is clear that the context here is speaking of the Hereafter.

35. Faatir - (The Orignator)

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
35 37 1 - [35:37]
English Yusuf Ali: [35:37]
Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): "Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness, not the (deeds) we used to do!" - "Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition? and (moreover) the warner came to you. So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds): for the wrong-doers there is no helper."

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
43 77 1 - [43:77]
English Yusuf Ali: [43:77]
They will cry: "O Malik! would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide!"

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
43 78 1 - [43:78]
English Yusuf Ali: [43:78]
Verily We have brought the Truth to you: but most of you have a hatred for Truth.

moreover...

Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
68 34 1 - [68:34]
English Yusuf Ali: [68:34]
Verily, for the Righteous, are Gardens of Delight, in the Presence of their Lord.
Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
68 35 1 - [68:35]
English Yusuf Ali: [68:35]
Shall We then treat the People of Faith like the People of Sin?
Recitation: wwwislamicboardcom -
68 36 1 - [68:36]
English Yusuf Ali: [68:36]
What is the matter with you? How judge ye?








Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
See this is where we are stuck.

When you say that all people sin, does that mean they sinner by nature? If so, it doesn't matter how many times they repent, they are going to keep sinning unless they change their nature, which in turn will change their behaviour. You can keep doing all of the religious stuff you want but unless you change yourself, your personality, your behaviour, the way you do things, it's all useless.

Yes humans sin by nature. But the best sinners are those that feel regret for their error, repent and change their ways for the better. Obviously its not good to sin, we know that. However if we do fall into it - atleast we know that if we turn to Allaah - He will forgive us inshaa Allaah [God willing.]


The concept in Islaam is love, hope and fear. The love is the driving force, the hope is for Allaah's reward and Mercy, and the fear is to disobey Him out of love for Him, and fear of punishment. A famous scholar said that its like the wings of a bird, if one of these concepts [of hope and fear] were to outweigh the other - then the bird would fall. Hence man would fall.

Therefore we should strive not to sin, however if we do fall into it - we should repent before death overtakes us. There are among mankind people who feel too arrogant to own up to their mistakes, however when one repents they are humble before their Creator and own up to their mistake, hoping that Allaah will forgive them. Therefore it is a form of removing arrogance also since one knows they are responsible for their actions.




That's why it's important to first understand what you are doing wrong and then change it instead of blindly following a religion.

We understand what is good and evil by looking at what Allaah has prohibited and forbidden since this is how we realise what is permissible and sinful etc. This is where morals come from, otherwise man is continously in dispute in regard to what is wrong or right, so Allaah revealed revelation to His Messengers on issues where mankind differed - in order to help them unite on something positive together.



Regards.
Reply

AB517
04-13-2007, 06:00 PM
For a meadow to be so beautiful it must contain the creatures of god’s creation. The trees, grass, flowers, creators, and wind. What is the grass that said, "I am the only true beauty here?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by England
You're sending me all these passages but I'm not reading them. I don't follow Islam and I don't believe in the Quran, especially if it says we're deemed for hell if we don't worship God. We are put on this earth to experience life not to worship and no way will I be sent to hell because of that. God knows I'm thankful and I'm sure he's happy with the way I've lived my life. The only way to get me to believe that we are put here to submit to God will be by God Himself telling me.

When Allaah sends revelations to mankind, He sends them in order to bring together mankind in peace and unification.

It doesn't really matter what propaganda you see on tv, but what they show isn't the true islaam since this is exactly what Islaam calls against. If you don't want to see the proof for it - then that's upto you. However you will be resurrected infront of your Lord and be questioned on your actions that you performed in this life. Jesus son of Mary bowed down to God, he worshipped him and if you truely believe in him, and he is more pious than any of us here - then why shouldn't we be thankful to our Creator either? Isn't He the One who gives us all we got?

Submitting to God is a sign that you're grateful to Him for all the good that He has given you. Imagine one day God says that i can't be bothered giving you your sight, your food, your clothes, your house and everysingle thing you got. Will you be happy? Well these are all favours of God which you take for granted, and if you truely are thankful to God then you should atleast be prepared to search for the truth. If you don't understand anything - ask away since God gives the answers. Ask God to guide you to what is right and He will do so. There is a great reward in store for God's believing servants, and there is a great punishment for those who feel that they are not in need of being thankful to God.



Regards.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by AB517
For a meadow to be so beautiful it must contain the creatures of god’s creation. The trees, grass, flowers, creators, and wind. What is the grass that said, "I am the only true beauty here?

If you taught a child that you should do good for your own benefit in order to be rewarded. Would you tell them to do what is right? You would wouldn't you? Since you know better than them since you're more wiser.

God sends His Prophets to tell us what is wrong and right in order to gain His reward and Mercy.


If we all do whatever we want and what we feel is right, isn't that saying we know better than God? God tells us through His Messengers what is wrong and right, and if we do that - then mankind will be at peace with one another. However, man can be rebellious and oppose that out of his/her own desires. But why does man heedlessly turn away when God is calling them towards His Mercy and reward (of this life and the hereafter)?
Reply

England
04-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by AB517
England:

I cant PM so I posted this.

I am a Chemistry and Physics guy. I had an awaking that can only be described as “spooky”. There is a huge difference between spirituality and religion.

Thank you
Are you spiritual?
As I said I'm not religious, I believe in spirituality and that this body of ours is an egg. Once we pass away our sole hatches out of this "egg" and then our spirit is seperated from the good and the bad. The good enters the spirit world but the bad isn't granted access. I've witnessed spiritual things going off in my life. I've also had extremely accurate readings from spiritualists. So accurate that not even I had known until after confirmation.
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
And because there message was distorted, we can't really follow a distorted message now can we, since that would mean we're following something which isn't even true.

This is why the Qur'an was revealed - it is the Criterion [Furqaan] to confirm the message of the previous prophets [i.e. none is worthy of worship except Allaah] since the people of the other scriptures are in doubt in regard to what the true message of Allaah was. The final messenger confirmed it and Allaah will save it from being distorted till the Day of Judgement.
How do you really know that the message was distorted? Just because it says in Quran or something? Have the Christians and Jews confirmed this?

I personally think Christianity has had more positive effect on humanity than Islam.


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
There is nothing better since only God's messengers recieve divine revelation from Him, no-one else does since this is what Prophets and Messengers are - those who convey God's whole message. And as stated in Surah Al-Ahzaab [33] in the Qur'an - Muhammad (peace be upon him) is Allaah's final Prophet and Messenger and there will be no more prophets after him.
You simply assume there is nothing better because you think Quran is word of God and there couldn't be anything better than what it says in Quran.

Let's take eating meat for example. Could being a vegetarian be practically more merciful than killing a goat? If I understand it correctly what you call Halaam meat, you kill an animal and then you read some religious stuff (Kalam or something). Do you actually think it pleases God to kill, even if it's goat? I think you also something called Bakar Eid when they do the same.
Reply

England
04-13-2007, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
When Allaah sends revelations to mankind, He sends them in order to bring together mankind in peace and unification.

It doesn't really matter what propaganda you see on tv, but what they show isn't the true islaam since this is exactly what Islaam calls against. If you don't want to see the proof for it - then that's upto you. However you will be resurrected infront of your Lord and be questioned on your actions that you performed in this life. Jesus son of Mary bowed down to God, he worshipped him and if you truely believe in him, and he is more pious than any of us here - then why shouldn't we be thankful to our Creator either? Isn't He the One who gives us all we got?

Submitting to God is a sign that you're grateful to Him for all the good that He has given you. Imagine one day God says that i can't be bothered giving you your sight, your food, your clothes, your house and everysingle thing you got. Will you be happy? Well these are all favours of God which you take for granted, and if you truely are thankful to God then you should atleast be prepared to search for the truth. If you don't understand anything - ask away since God gives the answers. Ask God to guide you to what is right and He will do so. There is a great reward in store for God's believing servants, and there is a great punishment for those who feel that they are not in need of being thankful to God.



Regards.

Prove to me what you all you have said is true. Don't send me passages of the Quran, the bible, the scroll or whatever. I'm not religious. I feel you look too deeply into things. I give favours but I don't do it to get thanked or repaid. My parents have fed me since birth but they didn't do it for the thanks or to be repaid or to worship.


God isn't evil. I can say this 100% without doubt... I am not going to hell.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-13-2007, 06:46 PM
What does it say about Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains Hindus, Etc etc??
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
How do you really know that the message was distorted? Just because it says in Quran or something? Have the Christians and Jews confirmed this?

I personally think Christianity has had more positive effect on humanity than Islam.

Ask the christians on which is the book of God, they won't come upon a common agreement. Infact it's not even in the language which Jesus son of Mary spoke. The earliest manuscripts found are in greek whereas Jesus spoke the Aramaic tongue (Syrian.)


By the way, history has proved that Islaam has had a great impact on the world as a whole compared to christianity. When muslims were at their peak - Islaam made Europe what it is today, infact it brought the whole world out of the middle ages.

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622), in Cordova

"there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)

This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Muslim Spain,
"thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)



Muslim Spain and European Culture
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...lamic%20histor



The only time christianity had an impact at the social level was when they separated the state from the church. In other words - when they threw the bible behind their backs.

You simply assume there is nothing better because you think Quran is word of God and there couldn't be anything better than what it says in Quran.

Yeah, that's what i believe, with billions of others from different races and nationalities also. :)



Let's take eating meat for example. Could being a vegetarian be practically more merciful than killing a goat? If I understand it correctly what you call Halaam meat, you kill an animal and then you read some religious stuff (Kalam or something). Do you actually think it pleases God to kill, even if it's goat? I think you also something called Bakar Eid when they do the same.

Did you know God made animals out of meat, so we could eat them. :) Then He made some cattle which we could use for riding [i.e. horses, donkeys], others for eating and drinking their milk [cows, goats, sheep etc.]


Before sacrificing them - yes we recite Allaah's name over it, this shows that this animal is being sacrificed in the name of God and not any other deity.


The issue of slaughtering it is much more human compared to todays western standards, since they place the animals in water and electricute them till death.

Whereas in Islaam:


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

This method of slaughtering animals is done by many people around the world.

I think what they do is cut the main artery (the aorta) which is specifically in the neck area. When this is cut, the blood that reaches the other parts of the body is stopped, so the signal sent to the brain is limited to a really short time span only. And once the animal has been slaughtered, it doesn't die a slow death, but instead it dies on the spot. So the pain is kept to a minimum [since the link of pain has been cut off] and the sacrifice is swift without causing too much pain to the animal.

Hope that makes sense. :)

Also, we are told to sacrifice with a sharp knife [as the example of Prophet Ibraheem] since that causes the least pain to the animal because its swift/quick and to the point.




Regards.
Reply

al-fateh
04-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
What does it say about Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains Hindus, Etc etc??
if they are not informed about Islam, and they dont know of the message, Allah will judge them according to their sins and good in life.

but if they are informed and reject Islam, they are accounted

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by England
Prove to me what you all you have said is true. Don't send me passages of the Quran, the bible, the scroll or whatever. I'm not religious. I feel you look too deeply into things. I give favours but I don't do it to get thanked or repaid. My parents have fed me since birth but they didn't do it for the thanks or to be repaid or to worship.

Your parents knew what was better for you right? They told you what was good and bad, but who told them what was good or bad, was it their parents? Who taught them? Was it God's Messengers?

The main principle is that we can only truely find out what is good and bad by learning from soneone who recieved revelation from God, and those are His Messengers. Otherwise one culture may like something whereas that exact same thing maybe hated in another culture. Do you see what i mean? So having messengers and prophets is required to truely distinguish between what is truth and what is falsehood.


God's final Messenger was Muhammad, peace be upon him. What you might have heard off others doesn't mean they're telling the truth, so if you really want to see who Muhammad, God's final Messenger was - then i invite you to check this link:

http://mohammed.islamonline.net/Engl...es/index.shtml


God isn't evil. I can say this 100% without doubt... I am not going to hell.

I agree with you, God isn't evil. However there are people among mankind who are evil, those who are unthankful to God for the favours He has bestowed upon them, even though they never worked for these favours. You never worked to have eye-sight, or hearing, or taste, or wealth, or clothing.. but God gave this all to you, as a trust - to see if you would use all these in order to draw closer to Him, in order to search for the truth about God so you could be successful in this world and the one to come.

Those who are sincere, God will bring them closer towards Him. However, those who reject the clear signs when they come to them are showing that they truely aren't sincere, these people turn away when God gives them a sign and may simply say that its 'by chance.' When we know its not. The same way a movie isn't acted out by chance, but its directed by the Director.


Don't you know that God has made a place for you in His paradise? That is the original place for all the children of Adam, all you need to do is obey the Messenger God sent to you, and if you are sincere - then know that God has a huge reward instore for His obedient servants, since He is the Most Loving. If He gives you so much good in this life without you striving for it, imagine how much good He would bestow upon you for the good that you did strive for!



Regards. :)
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-13-2007, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
if they are not informed about Islam, and they dont know of the message, Allah will judge them according to their sins and good in life.

but if they are informed and reject Islam, they are accounted

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly.
I'm aware of it but reject it as I''m shown another path by Allah. And choose to follow that. Like you say Allah knows best!
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I'm aware of it but reject it as I''m shown another path by Allah. And choose to follow that. Like you say Allah knows best!
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). [Qur'an 3:85]

The message isn't a joke bro, there is only one path which leads mankind to God's Mercy and reward. That is in the obedience to His true Messengers.
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Did you know God made animals out of meat, so we could eat them. :) Then He made some cattle which we could use for riding [i.e. horses, donkeys], others for eating and drinking their milk [cows, goats, sheep etc.]
Meat of what? Where did the meat come from out of which God made the animals?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Before sacrificing them - yes we recite Allaah's name over it, this shows that this animal is being sacrificed in the name of God and not any other deity.


The issue of slaughtering it is much more human compared to todays western standards, since they place the animals in water and electricute them till death.

Whereas in Islaam:





Also, we are told to sacrifice with a sharp knife [as the example of Prophet Ibraheem] since that causes the least pain to the animal because its swift/quick and to the point.




Regards.
If you are supposed to use sharp knife so that it does cause too much, you do understand that causing pain is wrong. Then isn't causing no pain at all better than causing some pain?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-13-2007, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). [Qur'an 3:85]

The message isn't a joke bro, there is only one path which leads mankind to God's Mercy and reward. That is in the obedience to His true Messengers.
I know! But I can't fathom, as the Guru Granth Sahib states otherwise. I can't obey the Quran or any other because of the my religion being the true path for me.:statisfie
Reply

cali dude
04-13-2007, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). [Qur'an 3:85]

The message isn't a joke bro, there is only one path which leads mankind to God's Mercy and reward. That is in the obedience to His true Messengers.
If Islam only means submission to God, then yes Sikhs follow Islam as well, but we don't necessarily follow Mohammad's path, although there could be some similarities...
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Meat of what? Where did the meat come from out of which God made the animals?
Allaah is the Creator of all things.


If you are supposed to use sharp knife so that it does cause too much, you do understand that causing pain is wrong. Then isn't causing no pain at all better than causing some pain?
I said we use a sharp knife so it causes the least pain to the animal. And Allaah out of His eternal Wisdom has made certain meats permissible for us due to health benefits etc.


There are many benefits in eating meat:

- “According to nutritionists with the National Livestock and Meat Board, in general animal foods - meat, poultry, fish and eggs - contain top quality protein. This means all these foods supply the necessary amounts of all essential amino acids.”

- “it contains significant amounts of zinc and copper in their readily absorbable forms”
It is well established that eating meat improves the quality of nutrition, strengthens the immune system, promotes normal growth and development, is beneficial for day-to-day health, energy and well-being, and helps ensure optimal learning and academic performance.”

- “The long-term Bogalusa Heart Study finds that children who eat more meat are less likely to have deficiencies than those who eat little or no meat. Kids who don’t eat meat — and especially if they restrict other foods, as many girls are doing — are more likely to feel tired, apathetic, unable to concentrate, are sick more often, more frequently depressed, and are the most likely to be malnourished and have stunted growth. Meat and other animal-source foods are the building blocks of healthy growth that have made America’s youngsters among the tallest, strongest and healthiest in the world.”

http://www.healthyweightnetwork.com/zart6.htm

Anyway if you want to discuss the issue of meat further, i think its better to create a new thread since that is a totally different discussion. :)



Regards.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
If Islam only means submission to God, then yes Sikhs follow Islam as well, but we don't necessarily follow Mohammad's path, although there could be some similarities...

Submission to God means to submit to Allaah in the way He wants you to submit to Him. So it means to obey His Messenger (peace be upon him.) In our case, anyone who has lived after Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the revelation, then they will be brought forth and be responsible in the sight of God on whether they obeyed him or not. If they submitted and obeyed - their reward is with Allaah, if they rejected it when it became clear to them, then know that this life is only temporary, and you will without a doubt return to your Lord and be accountable for your ownselves.




Regards.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I know! But I can't fathom, as the Guru Granth Sahib states otherwise. I can't obey the Quran or any other because of the my religion being the true path for me.:statisfie

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

[Qur'an 2: 256-7]
Reply

ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Submission to God means to submit to Allaah in the way He wants you to submit to Him. So it means to obey His Messenger (peace be upon him.) In our case, anyone who has lived after Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the revelation, then they will be brought forth and be responsible in the sight of God on whether they obeyed him or not. If they submitted and obeyed - their reward is with Allaah, if they rejected it when it became clear to them, then know that this life is only temporary, and you will without a doubt return to your Lord and be accountable for your ownselves.

Regards.
How do we know who is right. I have read Muslim and Christian texts and I see no difference. Can someone not just submit to God? The whole, I sent a book down, so whole world follow it, jst doesn't convince me. I'm sorry.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-13-2007, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

[Qur'an 2: 256-7]
This referrs to Islam??
Reply

al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:25 PM
to understand Islam, u must know and understand the Attributes of Allah and the system of belief in Allah

otherwise there is no difference between the concept of GOD among the rest, for they give Allah creation qualities, and they know not of HIM

to understand the concept of Allah, you will see the great difference in appraoch of Muslims in contrast to other non-muslims

1. We say about Allah's unity believing by Allah's help - that Allah is One, without any partners.
2. There is nothing like Him.
3. There is nothing that can overwhelm Him.
4. There is no god other than Him.
5. He is the Eternal without a beginning and enduring without end.
6. He will never perish or come to an end.
7. Nothing happens except what He wills.
8. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can comprehend Him.
9. He is different from any created being.
10. He is living and never dies and is eternally active and never sleeps.
11. He creates without His being in need to do so and provides for His creation without any effort.
12. He causes death with no fear and restores to life without difficulty.
13. He has always existed together with His attributes since before creation. Bringing creation into existence did not add anything to His attributes that was not already there. As He was, together with His attributes, in pre-eternity, so He will remain throughout endless time.
14. It was not only after the act of creation that He could be described as `the Creator' nor was it only by the act of origination that He could he described as `the Originator'.
15. He was always the Lord even when there was nothing to be Lord of, and always the Creator even when there was no creation.
16. In the same way that He is the `Bringer to life of the dead', after He has brought them to life a first time, and deserves this name before bringing them to life, so too He deserves the name of `Creator' before He has created them.
17. This is because He has the power to do everything, everything is dependent on Him, everything is easy for Him, and He does not need anything. `There is nothing like Him and He is the Hearer, the Seer'. (al-Shura 42:11)
18. He created creation with His knowledge.
19. He appointed destinies for those He created.
20. He allotted to them fixed life spans.
21. Nothing about them was hidden from Him before He created them, and He knew everything that they would do before He created them.
22. He ordered them to obey Him and forbade them to disobey Him.
23. Everything happens according to His decree and will, and His will is accomplished. The only will that people have is what He wills for them. What He wills for them occurs and what He does not will, does not occur.
24. He gives guidance to whoever He wills, and protects them, and keeps them safe from harm, out of His generosity; and He leads astray whoever He wills, and abases them, and afflicts them, out of His justice.
25. All of them are subject to His will between either His generosity or His justice.
26. He is exalted beyond having opposites or equals.
27. No one can ward off His decree or put back His command or overpower His affairs.
28. We believe in all of this and are certain that everything comes from Him.
29. And we are certain that Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) is His chosen servant and selected Prophet and His Messenger with whom He is well pleased.
30. And that he is the seal of the prophets and the Imam of the godfearing and the most honoured of all the messengers and the beloved of the Lord of all the Worlds.
31. Every claim to prophethood after Him is falsehood and deceit.
32. He is the one who has been sent to all the jinn and all mankind with truth and guidance and with light and illumination.
33. The Qur'an is the word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how. He sent it down on His Messenger as revelation. The believers accept it, as absolute truth. They are certain that it is, in truth, the word of Allah. It is not created, as is the speech of human beings, and anyone who hears it and claims that it is human speech has become an unbeliever. Allah warns him and censures him and threatens him with Fire when He says, Exalted is He:

`I will burn him in the Fire.' (al-Muddaththir 74:26)

When Allah threatens with the Fire those who say

`This is just human speech' (al-Muddaththir 74:25)

34. we know for certain that it is the speech of the Creator of mankind and that it is totally unlike the speech of mankind. Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings.
35. `The Seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden' is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it:

`Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord'. (al-Qiyamah 75:22-3)

36. The explanation of this is as Allah knows and wills. Everything that has come down to us about this from the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in authentic traditions, is as he said and means what he intended. We do not delve into that, trying to interpret it according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein. No one is safe in his religion unless he surrenders himself completely to Allah, the Exalted and Glorified and to His Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and leaves the knowledge of things that are ambiguous to the one who knows them. A man's Islam is not secure unless it is based on submission and surrender. Anyone who desires to know things which it is beyond his capacity to know, and whose intellect is not content with surrender, will find that his desire veils him from a pure understanding of Allah's true Unity, clear knowledge and correct belief, and that he veers between disbelief and belief, confirmation and denial and acceptance and rejection. He will be subject to whisperings and find himself confused and full of doubt, being neither an accepting believer nor a denying rejector.
37. Belief of a man in the `seeing of Allah by the people of the Garden is not correct if he imagines what it is like, or interprets it according to his own understanding since the interpretation of this seeing' or indeed, the meaning of any of the subtle phenomena which are in the realm of Lordship, is by avoiding its interpretation and strictly adhering to the submission. `This is the din of Muslims. Anyone who does not guard himself against negating the attributes of Allah, or likening Allah to something else, has gone astray and has failed to understand Allah's Glory, because our Lord, the Glorified and the Exalted, can only possibly be described in terms of Oneness and Absolute Singularity and no creation is in any way like Him.
38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.
39. Al-Mi'raj (the Ascent through the heavens) is true. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was taken by night and ascended in his bodily form, while awake, through the heavens, to whatever heights Allah willed for him. Allah ennobled him in the way that He ennobled him and revealed to him what He revealed to him,

`and his heart was not mistaken about what it saw' (al-Najm 53:11).

40. Allah blessed him and granted him peace in this world and the next. Al-Hawd, (the Pool which Allah will grant the Prophet as an honour to quench the thirst of His Ummah on the Day Of Judgement), is true.
41. Al-Shifa'ah, (the intercession, which is stored up for Muslims), is true, as related in the (consistent and confirmed) Ahadith.
42. The covenant `which Allah made with Adam and his offspring' is true.
43. Allah knew, before the existence of time, the exact number of those who would enter the Garden and the exact number of those who would enter the Fire. This number will neither be increaser nor decreased.
44. The same applies to all actions done by people, which are done exactly as Allah knew they would be done. Everyone is cased to what he was created for and it is the action with which a man's life is sealed which dictates his fate. Those who are fortunate are fortunate by the decree of Allah, and those who are wretched are wretched by the decree of Allah.
45. The exact nature of the decree is Allah's secret in His creation, and no angel near the Throne, nor Prophet sent with a message, has been given knowledge of it. Delving into it and reflecting too much about it only leads to destruction and loss, and results in rebelliousness. So be extremely careful about thinking and reflecting on this matter or letting doubts about it assail you, because Allah has kept knowledge of the decree away from human beings, and forbidden them to enquire about it, saying in His Book,

`He is not asked about what He does but they are asked'. (al-Anbiya' 21:23)

46. So anyone who asks: `Why did Allah do that?' has gone against a judgement of the Book, and anyone who goes against a judgement of the Book is an unbeliever. This in sum is what those of Allah's friends with enlightened hearts need to know and constitutes the degree of those firmly endowed with knowledge. For there are two kinds of knowledge: knowledge which is accessible to created beings, and knowledge which is not accessible to created beings. Denying the knowledge which is accessible is disbelief, and claiming the knowledge which is inaccessible is disbelief. Belief can only be firm when accessible knowledge is accepted and inaccessible knowledge is not sought after.
47. We believe in al-Lawh (the Tablet) and al-Qalam (the Pen) and in everything written on it. Even if all created beings were to gather together to make something fail to exist, whose existence Allah had written on the Tablet, they would not be able to do so. And if all created beings were to gather together to make something exist which Allah had not written on it, they would not be able to do so. The Pen has dried having written down all that will be in existence until the Day of Judgement. Whatever a person has missed he would have never got it, and whatever one gets, he would have never missed it.
48. It is necessary for the servant to know that Allah already knows everything that is going to happen in His creation and decreed it in a detailed and decisive way. There is nothing that He has created in either the heavens or the earth that can contradict it, or add to it, or erase it, or change it, or decrease it, or increase it in any way. This is a fundamental aspect of belief and a necessary element of all knowledge and recognition of Allah's Oneness and Lordship. As Allah says in His Book:

`He created everything and decreed it in a detailed way'. (al-Furqan 25:2)

And He also says:

`Allah's command is always a decided decree'. (al-Ahzab 33:38)

49. So woe to anyone who argues with Allah concerning the decree and who, with a sick heart, starts delving into this matter. In his delusory attempt to investigate the Unseen, he is seeking a secret that can never be uncovered, and he ends up an evil-doer, telling nothing but lies. Al-'Arsh (the Throne) and al-Kursi (the Chair) are true.
50. He is independent of the Throne and what is beneath it.
51. He encompasses everything and is above it, and what He has created is incapable of encompassing Him.
52. We say with belief, acceptance and submission that Allah took Ibrahim as an intimate friend and that He spoke directly to Musa.
53. We believe in the angels, and the Prophets, and the books which were revealed to the messengers, and we bear witness that they were all following the manifest Truth.
54. We call the people of our qiblah Muslims and believers as long as they acknowledge what the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, brought, and accept as true everything that he said and told us about.
55. We do not enter into vain talk about Allah nor do we allow any dispute about the religion Of Allah.
56. We do not argue about the Qur'an and we bear witness that it is the speech of the Lord of all the Worlds which the Trustworthy Spirit came down with and taught the most honoured Of all the Messengers, Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. It is the speech of Allah and no speech of any created being is comparable to it. We do not say that it was created and we do not go against the Jama'ah of the Muslims regarding it.
57. We do not consider any of the people of our qiblah to he unbelievers because of any wrong action they have done, as long as they do not consider that action to have been lawful.
58. Nor do we say that the wrong action of a man who has belief does not have a harmful effect on him.
59. We hope that Allah will pardon the people of right action among the believers and grant them entrance into the Garden through His mercy, but we cannot be certain of this, and we cannot bear witness that it will definitely happen and that they will be in the Garden. We ask forgiveness for the people of wrong action among the believers and, although we are afraid for them, we are not in despair about them.
60. Certainty and despair both remove one from the religion, but the path of truth for the people of the qiblah lies between the two (e.g. a person must fear and be conscious of Allah's reckoning as well as be hopeful of Allah's mercy).
61. A person does not step out or belief except by disavowing what brought him into it.
62. Belief consists of affirmation by the tongue and acceptance by the heart.
63. And the whole of what is proven from the Prophet, upon him be peace, regarding the Shari'ah and the explanation (of the Qur'an and of Islam) is true.
64. Belief is, at base, the same for everyone, but the superiority of some over others in it is due to their fear and awareness of Allah, their opposition to their desires, and their choosing what is more pleasing to Allah.
65. All the believers are `friends' of Allah and the noblest of them in the sight of Allah are those who are the most obedient and who most closely follow the Qur'an.
66. Belief consists of belief in Allah. His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and belief that the Decree - both the good of it and the evil of it, the sweet of it and the bitter or it - is all from Allah.
67. We believe in all these things. We do not make any distinction between any of the messengers, we accept as true what all of them brought.
68. Those of the Ummah of Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who have committed grave sins will be in the Fire, but not forever, provided they die and meet Allah as believers affirming His unity even if they have not repented. They are subject to His will and judgement. If He wants, He will forgive them and pardon them out of His generosity, as is mentionied in the Qur'an when He says:

`And He forgives anything less than that (shirk) to whoever He wills' (al-Nisa' 4: 116);

69. and if He wants, He will punish them in the Fire out of His justice and then bring them out of the Fire through His mercy, and for the intercession of those who were obedient to Him, and send them to the Garden. This is because Allah is the Protector of those who recognize Him and will not treat them in the Next World in the same way as He treats those who deny Him and who are bereft of His guidance and have failed to obtain His protection. O Allah, You are the Protector of Islam and its people; make us firm in Islam until the day we meet You. We agree with doing the prayer behind any of the people of the qiblah whether right-acting or wrong-acting, and doing the funeral prayer over any of them when they die.
70. We do not say that any of them will categorically go to either the Garden or the Fire, and we do not accuse any of them of kufr (disbelief), shirk (associating partners with Allah), or nifaq (hypocrisy), as long as they have not openly demonstrated any of those things. We leave their secrets to Allah.
71. We do not agree with killing any of the Ummah of Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, unless it is obligatory by Shari'ah to do so.
72. We do not recognize rebellion against our Imam or those in charge of our affairs even if they are unjust, nor do we wish evil on them, nor do we withdraw from following them. We hold that obedience to them is part of obedience to Allah, The Glorified, and therefore obligatory as long as they do not order to commit sins. We pray for their right guidance and pardon from their wrongs.
73. We follow the Sunnah of the Prophet and the Jama'ah of the Muslims, and avoid deviation, differences and divisions.
74. We love the people of justice and trustworthiness, and hate the people of injustice and treachery.
75. When our knowledge about something is unclear, we say: `Allah knows best'.
76. We agree with wiping over leather socks (in Wudu) whether on a journey or otherwise, just as has come in the (consistent and confirmed) ahadith.
77. Hajj and jihad under the leadership of those in charge of the Muslims, whether they are right or wrong-acting, are continuing obligations until the Last Hour comes. Nothing can annul or controvert them.
78. We believe in Kiraman Katibin (the noble angels) who write down our actions for Allah has appointed them over us as two guardians.
79. We believe in the Angel of Death who is charged with taking the spirits of all the worlds.
80. We believe in the punishment in the grave for those who deserve it, and in the questioning in the grave by Munkar and Nakir about one's Lord, one's religion and one's prophet, as has come down in ahadith from the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and in reports from the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all.
81. The grave is either one of the meadows of the Garden or one of the pits of the Fire.
82. We believe in being brought back to life after death and in being recompensed for our actions on the Day of Judgement, and al-'Ard, having been shown them and al-Hisab, brought to account for them. And Qira'at al-Kitab, reading the book, and the reward or punishments and in al-Sirat (the Bridge) and al-Mizan (the Balance).
83. The Garden and the Fire are created things that never come to an end and we believe that Allah created them before the rest of creation and then created people to inhabit each of them. Whoever He wills goes to the Garden out of His Bounty and whoever He wills goes to the Fire through His justice. Everybody acts in accordance with what is destined for him and goes towards what he has been created for.
84. Good and evil have both been decreed for people.
85. The capability in terms of Tawfiq (Divine Grace and Favour) which makes an action certain to occur cannot be ascribed to a created being. This capability is integral with action, whereas the capability of an action in terms of having the necessary health, and ability, being in a position to act and having the necessary means, exists in a person before the action. It is this type of capability which is the object of the dictates of Shariah. Allah the Exalted says:

`Allah does not charge a person except according to his ability'. (al-Baqarah 2: 286)

86. People's actions are created by Allah but earned by people.
87. Allah, the Exalted, has only charged people with what they are able to do and people are only capable to do what Allah has favoured them. This is the explanation of the phrase: `There is no power and no strength except by Allah.' We add to this that there is no stratagem or way by which anyone can avoid or escape disobedience to Allah except with Allah's help; nor does anyone have the strength to put obedience to Allah into practice and remain firm in it, except if Allah makes it possible for them to do so.
88. Everything happens according to Allah's will, knowledge, predestination and decree. His will overpowers all other wills and His decree overpowers all stratagems. He does whatever He wills and He is never unjust. He is exalted in His purity above any evil or perdition and He is perfect far beyond any fault or flaw. `He will not be asked about what He does but they will he asked.' (al-Anbiya' 21: 23)
89. There is benefit for dead people in the supplication and alms-giving of the living.
90. Allah responds to people's supplications and gives them what they ask for.
91. Allah has absolute control over everything and nothing has any control over Him. Nothing can be independent of Allah even for the blinking of an eye, and whoever considers himself independent of Allah for the blinking of an eye is guilty of unbelief and becomes one of the people of perdition.
92. Allah is angered and can be pleased but not in the same way as any creature.
93. We love the Companions of the Messenger of Allah but we do not go to excess in our love for any one individual among them nor do we disown any one of them. We hate anyone who hates them or does not speak well of them and we only speak well of them. Love of them is a part of Islam, part of belief and part of excellent behaviour, while hatred of them is unbelief, hypocrisy and rebelliousness.
94. We confirm that, after the death of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, the caliphate went first to Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, may Allah be pleased with him, thus proving his excellence and superiority over the rest of the Muslims; then to `Umar ibn alKhattab, may Allah be pleased with him; then to `Uthman, may Allah be pleased with him; and then to `Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him. These are the Rightly-Guided Caliphs and upright leaders.
95. We bear witness that the ten who were named by the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and who were promised the Garden by him, will be in the Garden, as the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, whose word is truth, bore witness that they would he. The ten are: Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Uthman, `Ali, Talhah, Zubayr, Sa'd, Sa'id, `Abdur-Rahman ibn `Awf and Abu `Ubaydah ibn al-Jarrah whose title was the trustee of this Ummah, may Allah be pleased with all of them.
96. Anyone who speaks well of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and his wives and offspring, who are all pure and untainted by any impurity, is free from the accusation of hypocrisy.
97. The learned men of the first community and those who followed in their footsteps - the people of virtue, the narrators of the Ahadith, the jurists and analysts- they must only be spoken about in the best way and anyone who says anything bad about them is not on the right path.
98. We do not prefer any of the saintly men among the Ummah over any of the Prophets but rather we say that any one of the Prophets is better than all the awliya' put together.
99. We believe in what we know of Karamat, the marvels of the awliya' and in authentic stories about them from trustworthy sources.
100. We believe in the signs of the Hour such as the appearance of the Dajjal and the descent of `Isa ibn Maryam, peace be upon him, from heaven and we believe in the rising of the sun from where it sets and in the emergence of the Beast from the earth.
101. We do not accept as true what soothsayers and fortune-tellers say, nor do we accept the claims of those who affirm anything which goes against the Book, the Sunnah and the consensus of the Muslim Ummah.
102. We agree that holding together is the true and right path and that separation is deviation and torment.
103. There is only one religion of Allah in the heavens and the earth and that is the religion of Islam. Allah says:

`Surely religion in the sight of Allah is Islam'. (Al `Imran 3:19)

And He also says:

`I am pleased with Islam as a religion for you'. (al-Matidah 5:3)

104. Islam lies between going to excess and falling short, between Tashbih (likening of Allah's attributes to anything else), and Tatil (denying Allah's attributes), between fatalism and refusing decree as proceeding from Allah and between certainty (without being conscious of Allah's reckoning) and despair (of Allah's mercy).
105. This is our religion and it is what we believe in, both inwardly and outwardly, and we renounce any connection, before Allah, with anyone who goes against what we have said and made clear.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
How do we know who is right. I have read Muslim and Christian texts and I see no difference. Can someone not just submit to God? The whole, I sent a book down, so whole world follow it, jst doesn't convince me. I'm sorry.

Do you really think God has children? That's what christians claim, they believe that Jesus died for all your sins and that means you can do whatever you want? They can't even decide on which is the true book of God, infact they don't even have the original.


The Qur'an is One, it is the Criterion, the Reminder which God sent down to His final Messenger (peace be upon him.) We still have the copy existing today which was written by Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him)'s companions. It's in the Museum of Turkey, and here are some photos of it:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html


It is a guide for all of mankind, not for a specific race only. It is the reminder, the light towards your Creator and Sustainer. Whosoever follows it will gain Allaah's Mercy in this world and the hereafter, but whosoever shuns it and leaves it behind his back will wander in the darkness with no guide, with no helper. Their life will be constricted, but those who submit to Allaah will find that Allaah is their Protector, their Helper. Through the good and bad, since every trial we face in life is a stepping stone to get closer to Him, to His Mercy and Reward.

Who could imagine some desert arabs who no-one knew, men who were sheperds of camels would become the most advanced nation to ever live? It was only one book which transformed them, this book took them from the deepness of darkness towards the light of Islaam. These men became the leaders of the world, and there names are still remembered today - One thousand four hundred years later. They are praised because they stuck to the Book of Allaah, and they became successful in this world, and the success of the hereafter is much greater.


May Allaah make us successful in this life, and the one to come. ameen.


Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).
Reply

ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Do you really think God has children? That's what christians claim, they believe that Jesus died for all your sins and that means you can do whatever you want? They can't even decide on which is the true book of God, infact they don't even have the original.
Is God not infinite? I don't believe God has children, but I think it is just as ridiculous for God to state that all the world must follow the Quran or burn.

You speak of the Quran like no other scripture on earth "is a guide for all of mankind, not for a specific race only."
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
This referrs to Islam??

The message of Islaam is for all of mankind. Those who reject Allaah and His Messengers when the clear proofs come to them will be the losers of this world and the hereafter.

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.


[Qur'an 2: 170-1]
Reply

al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Is God not infinite? I don't believe God has children, but I think it is just as ridiculous for God to state that all the world must follow the Quran or burn.

You speak of the Quran like no other scripture on earth "is a guide for all of mankind, not for a specific race only."
people follow what they please....

we dont guide no one, God guides who ever he wills.
Reply

ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The message of Islaam is for all of mankind. Those who reject Allaah and His Messengers when the clear proofs come to them will be the losers of this world and the hereafter.

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.


[Qur'an 2: 170-1]

What clear proofs! Proof is "established beyond doubt". That is what I am stuggling with!

people follow what they please....

we dont guide no one, God guides who ever he wills.
God then wills not to guide people?
Reply

al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
What clear proofs! Proof is "established beyond doubt". That is what I am stuggling with!



God then wills not to guide people?
here is a gerat proof

read this post, i insist!

http://www.islamicboard.com/713037-post82.html
Reply

ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
here is a gerat proof

read this post, i insist!

http://www.islamicboard.com/713037-post82.html
I did. It just quotes the Quran. :X
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Is God not infinite? I don't believe God has children, but I think it is just as ridiculous for God to state that all the world must follow the Quran or burn.

The Qur'an is the speech of Allaah which He revealed to His final Messenger (peace be upon him.) If someone rejects it and says its 'stories of old', then isn't that saying things of Allaah which you have no knowledge? Isn't that saying that God has lied? Should a person be rewarded for saying that God lies? Even though He's given them and you so much good?

You may think one thousand four hundred years is a long time ago right? Well this is exactly what the people of old said:

When to him are rehearsed Our Signs, "Tales of the ancients", he cries!
[Qur'an 68:15]



The Qur'an is for the benefit of mankind, on matters where mankind differed. So now that the message has come to you, what's stopping you from turning to Allaah to ask Him to guide you to the truth?

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). [Qur'an 2:255]
Reply

al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
I did. It just quotes the Quran. :X
that is not the Quran, it shows to me that u didnt even try to read, or u cannot tell the difference between what is the Quran and what is to explain the concept of Allah and the reasons of worship....

if u read it, you would see what contradicts other beliefs on how they perceieve GOD.
Reply

ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The Qur'an is the speech of Allaah which He revealed to His final Messenger (peace be upon him.) If someone rejects it and says its 'stories of old', then isn't that saying things of Allaah which you have no knowledge? Isn't that saying that God has lied? Should a person be rewarded for saying that God lies? Even though He's given them and you so much good?

You may think one thousand four hundred years is a long time ago right? Well this is exactly what the people of old said:

When to him are rehearsed Our Signs, "Tales of the ancients", he cries!
[Qur'an 68:15]



The Qur'an is for the benefit of mankind, on matters where mankind differed. So now that the message has come to you, what's stopping you from turning to Allaah to ask Him to guide you to the truth?

Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). [Qur'an 2:255]
So we take Mohammad for his word that he spoke to God?

Jospeh Smith makes the same claim in Mormonism. :exhausted
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-13-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The message of Islaam is for all of mankind. Those who reject Allaah and His Messengers when the clear proofs come to them will be the losers of this world and the hereafter.

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?


[Qur'an 2: 170-1]
My fathers followed a way revealed by Allah to the Ten Sikh Gurus. So, saying the fathers were void of wisdom by following this path is ludicrous. If you trust Allah does everything then you'll also believe in his power he has the abilty to make others that follow him in another way.
.
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al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:45 PM
brother Fisabililah, i think its better to approach them with what is common sense and what the mind accepts, before quoting the hadith and the Quran, cz they dont believe in it...

we accept Allah swt with what DOESNT contradict the sound mind
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al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:50 PM
i say we break the Aqeeda Tahawiya for them, one by one, point by point, what do u think?

ill help out
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ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:51 PM
Aqeeda Tahawiya for them
What is that?
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- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
What clear proofs! Proof is "established beyond doubt". That is what I am stuggling with!

What kind of proof do you need? Try pondering over it, all the other religions among mankind are either for a specific group of people, or they simply say evil lies about God of which they have no knowledge.

You are created upon fitrah [on a natural disposition - to do good, to believe in One God, to do good in order to please Him in order to get His reward etc.] Do you really think God created us all for no purpose at all?

We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them for a (mere) play.

Had We intended to take a pastime (i.e. a wife or a son, etc.), We could surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to do (that).

Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur'ân) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allâh by uttering that Allâh has a wife and a son).


To Him belongs whosoever is in the heavens and on earth. And those who are near Him (i.e. the angels) are not too proud to worship Him, nor are they weary (of His worship).

They (i.e. the angels) glorify His Praises night and day, (and) they never slacken (to do so).

Or have they taken (for worship) âliha (gods) from the earth who raise the dead?


Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allâh, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!

He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned.

Or have they taken for worship (other) âliha (gods) besides Him? Say: "Bring your proof:" This (the Qur'ân) is the Reminder for those with me and the Reminder for those before me. But most of them know not the Truth, so they are averse.


And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad SAW) but We inspired him (saying): Lâ ilâha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allâh)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)."
[Qur'an The Prophets 21: 16-25]

God then wills not to guide people?


Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).


The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.

It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).







So you take that step towards Allaah, and He will come to you at speed. You just gota show your sincerety and dedication. :)
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al-fateh
04-13-2007, 08:53 PM
im glad u asked...(even though i already talked about it)

if u are interested, i can go over it point by point and discuss it with u, and inshallah we can get to an understanding
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- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 08:56 PM
:salamext:


Brother al fateh, the Qur'an is a guidance for all of mankind. It is a book of guidance, and whether a believer or non believer reads it - it will have an impact on them since the Qur'an is for all of mankind. Whether one is a believer or non believer, the message is for them. The logic and fitrah [natural dispositon God has created us in] fit in together with man in order to help them understand the Qur'an and reflect upon it to see their real purpose.


By reading the Qur'an man gains faith, instead of simply needing faith to understand Qur'an - if you get what i mean. :)
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ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 08:56 PM
What kind of proof do you need? Try pondering over it, all the other religions among mankind are either for a specific group of people, or they simply say evil lies about God of which they have no knowledge.

You are created upon fitrah [on a natural disposition - to do good, to believe in One God, to do good in order to please Him in order to get His reward etc.] Do you really think God created us all for no purpose at all?
1. I think you are making a bit of an error if the religion for a specific group is Judaism, since they don't consider themselves a religion.

2. Our mind on anturaul diposition does what we are taught. Those who live in bad homes, most likely will turn out the way they were taught.

Brother al fateh, the Qur'an is a guidance for all of mankind. It is a book of guidance, and whether a believer or non believer reads it - it will have an impact on them since the Qur'an is for all of mankind.
I have read it, and it didn't do much. Is something wrong with me then? Should I have read it more then once?

if u are interested, i can go over it point by point and discuss it with u, and inshallah we can get to an understanding
Sure. :)
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- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
So we take Mohammad for his word that he spoke to God?

Jospeh Smith makes the same claim in Mormonism. :exhausted

Then you gota see what Joseph smith came up with. Right? See the message and see if it truely is a way of life which brings good for billions of people. :) Then compare it to the Qur'an for yourself. This is when your sincerety comes into it.
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al-fateh
04-13-2007, 09:04 PM
Inshallah the bro Fisbalililah will help out inshallah

1st point

We say about Allah's unity believing by Allah's help - that Allah is One, without any partners.

is there anything that you go against here?
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ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Then you gota see what Joseph smith came up with. Right? See the message and see if it truely is a way of life which brings good for billions of people. :) Then compare it to the Qur'an for yourself. This is when your sincerety comes into it.
I have done, so and both books make claims which they cannot prove to me. Of course one may make more sense, but I don't see how making sense is proof.

Inshallah the bro Fisbalililah will help out inshallah

1st point

We say about Allah's unity believing by Allah's help - that Allah is One, without any partners.

is there anything that you go against here?
Not really.
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al-fateh
04-13-2007, 09:07 PM
2. There is nothing like Him.

is there anything u go against here?

and what would u say to the term "nothing like him"?
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ManchesterFolk
04-13-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
2. There is nothing like Him.

is there anything u go against here?

and what would u say to the term "nothing like him"?
If you believe in one God then obviously there is nothing like him.
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AB517
04-13-2007, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Brother al fateh, the Qur'an is a guidance for all of mankind. It is a book of guidance, and whether a believer or non believer reads it - it will have an impact on them since the Qur'an is for all of mankind. Whether one is a believer or non believer, the message is for them. The logic and fitrah [natural dispositon God has created us in] fit in together with man in order to help them understand the Qur'an and reflect upon it to see their real purpose.


By reading the Qur'an man gains faith, instead of simply needing faith to understand Qur'an - if you get what i mean. :)
Amen

This is a reasoneble statement ... you mite just have it.
I dont know if you can answer this because ... are there any others that fit this discription?

AB517
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al-fateh
04-13-2007, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
If you believe in one God then obviously there is nothing like him.
ok, hold ur horses, and when we say there is nothing like him , we differ with what others attribute Allah with.

some of which we know they attribute Allah by having a son, or by Allah being a light, or by Allah being the holy spirit, or by Allah being among us on earth. so if we were to affirm that there is nothing like him, it is logical to say, that he is unlike his creation... agreed? cz everything i mentioned is a creation...

which takes us back on affirming even more the first point...
We say about Allah's unity believing by Allah's help - that Allah is One, without any partners.
being unlike any other also means, he has no partners , and he is one, and that we need out creator, while he doesnt need us, cz he created us.

clear so far my friend?
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- Qatada -
04-13-2007, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by AB517
Amen

This is a reasoneble statement ... you mite just have it.
I dont know if you can answer this because ... are there any others that fit this discription?

AB517

Try listening to the Qur'an in the arabic language, with a translation in english - verse by verse:

http://sabbir.com/DownloadHalal.html


I'm sure you'll see that none can compare the eloquent Qur'an to any other book.



Here's a good link also which explains who is God, what is worship etc.:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/




Regards.
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cali dude
04-14-2007, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Allaah is the Creator of all things.
You actually believe that meat came before animals?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I said we use a sharp knife so it causes the least pain to the animal. And Allaah out of His eternal Wisdom has made certain meats permissible for us due to health benefits etc.
This is where the problem is...

You, as a Muslim, do understand that causing pain in wrong, right? Apparently, that's why you are supposed to use sharper knife, to minimize pain because even Muslims understand that unnecessarily causing pain is wrong.

Logically thinking, if causing pain is wrong, what's even better than causing a little pain? I would think causing no pain at all is better than causing even a little pain.

So, if your religion were the best, shouldn't it be preaching not to kill or cause killing of animals unless there is no other way to survive? Since it doesn't preach that, apparently, there is a better way to live a spiritual life than your religion.

Don't worry, I often have the same problem when I go to one of the Sikh sites, but, I am pretty sure you remember you gave me infraction points for mentioning the truth about your religion. In other words, truth is not acceptable to you. Those, who are offended by truth and try to hide it, are not truthful people.

It doesn't take genius to figure out that in spiritual word, you must be the most honest and truthful person.

So, obviously there is a better spiritual path than the spiritual path you follow.


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
And Allaah out of His eternal Wisdom has made certain meats permissible for us due to health benefits etc.
How selfish!!! All you think of is yourself, no mercy for animals. Spirituality isn't about being selfish, is it?
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cali dude
04-14-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Submission to God means to submit to Allaah in the way He wants you to submit to Him. So it means to obey His Messenger (peace be upon him.) In our case, anyone who has lived after Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the revelation, then they will be brought forth and be responsible in the sight of God on whether they obeyed him or not. If they submitted and obeyed - their reward is with Allaah, if they rejected it when it became clear to them, then know that this life is only temporary, and you will without a doubt return to your Lord and be accountable for your ownselves.
If my views contradict with your views, how does it even make sense for me to follow your path, especially when I know there is a better path.
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al-fateh
04-14-2007, 03:08 PM
how would u say your way is the better way?

can u explain....i would like to hear the conept of your worship and why is it better.
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- Qatada -
04-14-2007, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
You actually believe that meat came before animals?

I simply stated that Allaah created all things, i never said which came before the other. Because i don't know the answer, what did God create first - the meat of the animal, or the animal itself?


If we say the animal was created first, we have to question how the animal was made; was it made without the bones being covered in flesh/meat at the beginning?

If that's the case, then the meat was created first. And Allaah knows best.



This is where the problem is...

You, as a Muslim, do understand that causing pain in wrong, right? Apparently, that's why you are supposed to use sharper knife, to minimum pain because even Muslims understand that unnecessarily causing pain is wrong.

Logically thinking, if causing pain is wrong, what's even better than causing a little pain? I would think causing no pain at all is better than causing even a little pain.


So, if your religion were the best, shouldn't it preaching not to kill or cause killing of animals unless there is no other way to survive? Since it doesn't preach that, apparently, there is a better way to live a spiritual life than your religion.

Try giving me proof from your scripture that eating animals is forbidden, then we can discuss this situation further. :) If you don't have proof from your own religious scripture [i.e. the Guru Granth Sahib] - then that isn't truelly showing that sikhism is the more 'better way to live' right?



Don't worry, I often have the same problem when I go to one of the Sikh sites, but, I am pretty sure you remember you gave me infraction points for mentioning the truth about your religion. In other words, truth is not acceptable to you. Those, who are offended by truth and try to hide it, are not truthful people.

Oh ok, so theres a difference of opinion among sikhis too on whether eating meat is allowed or not?

And no i never gave you infractions for 'telling the truth' about my religion, i gave you the infraction because you spread propaganda about it by distorting the facts.



It doesn't take genius to figure out that in spiritual word, you must be the most honest and truthful person.
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is obligatory for you to tell the truth, for truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to Paradise, and the man who continues to speak the truth and endeavours to tell the truth is eventually recorded as truthful with Allah, and beware of telling of a lie for telling of a lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell-Fire, and the person who keeps telling lies and endeavours to tell a lie is recorded as a liar with Allah.

Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6309.



So, obviously there is a better spiritual path than the spiritual path you follow.

How so?



How selfish!!! All you think of is yourself, no mercy for animals. Spirituality isn't about being selfish, is it?

I've stated before, it hardly causes pain to the animals. Allaah has created for us some animals to eat, some to ride, and they are bestowed upon us as a blessing from Allaah. And we've used science to prove that it is healthy for humans to eat meat, infact it causes those who don't eat meat to have negative side effects:

It is well established that eating meat improves the quality of nutrition, strengthens the immune system, promotes normal growth and development, is beneficial for day-to-day health, energy and well-being, and helps ensure optimal learning and academic performance.”

- “The long-term Bogalusa Heart Study finds that children who eat more meat are less likely to have deficiencies than those who eat little or no meat. Kids who don’t eat meat — and especially if they restrict other foods, as many girls are doing — are more likely to feel tired, apathetic, unable to concentrate, are sick more often, more frequently depressed, and are the most likely to be malnourished and have stunted growth. Meat and other animal-source foods are the building blocks of healthy growth that have made America’s youngsters among the tallest, strongest and healthiest in the world.”

http://www.healthyweightnetwork.com/zart6.htm

Anyway, maybe you could provide evidence from your scripture which prohibits the eating of meat. :)



Thanks in advance.
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- Qatada -
04-14-2007, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
If my views contradict with your views, how does it even make sense for me to follow your path, especially when I know there is a better path.

Bring me your proof if you're truthful. You're one guy versus billions of others among mankind, from different races and nationalities. :)
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al-fateh
04-14-2007, 03:17 PM
waiting for the proof as well....
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cali dude
04-14-2007, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I simply stated that Allaah created all things, i never said which came before the other. Because i don't know the answer, what did God create first - the meat of the animal, or the animal itself?

If we say the animal was created first, we have to question how the animal was made; was it made without the bones being covered in flesh/meat at the beginning?

If that's the case, then the meat was created first. And Allaah knows best.
Or maybe because animals and people were not created instantly. Maybe theory of evolution correct...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Try giving me proof from your scripture that eating animals is forbidden, then we can discuss this situation further. :) If you don't have proof from your own religious scripture [i.e. the Guru Granth Sahib] - then that isn't truelly showing that sikhism is the more 'better way to live' right?
As far as I understand a Sikh should eat meat only if there is no other way to survive. That's why most Baptized Sikhs are vegetarians.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Oh ok, so theres a difference of opinion among sikhis too on whether eating meat is allowed or not?

And no i never gave you infractions for 'telling the truth' about my religion, i gave you the infraction because you spread propaganda about it by distorting the facts.
Yes the meat issue and also other political issues. When I try to post something about wrongdoings of some of the so-called Sikh leaders, they won't allow me post.

No, there was no distorting. What I said was all facts...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
How so?
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I've stated before, it hardly causes pain to the animals. Allaah has created for us some animals to eat, some to ride, and they are bestowed upon us as a blessing from Allaah. And we've used science to prove that it is healthy for humans to eat meat, infact it causes those who don't eat meat to have negative side effects:

It is well established that eating meat improves the quality of nutrition, strengthens the immune system, promotes normal growth and development, is beneficial for day-to-day health, energy and well-being, and helps ensure optimal learning and academic performance.”

- “The long-term Bogalusa Heart Study finds that children who eat more meat are less likely to have deficiencies than those who eat little or no meat. Kids who don’t eat meat — and especially if they restrict other foods, as many girls are doing — are more likely to feel tired, apathetic, unable to concentrate, are sick more often, more frequently depressed, and are the most likely to be malnourished and have stunted growth. Meat and other animal-source foods are the building blocks of healthy growth that have made America’s youngsters among the tallest, strongest and healthiest in the world.”

http://www.healthyweightnetwork.com/zart6.htm

Anyway, maybe you could provide evidence from your scripture which prohibits the eating of meat. :)



Thanks in advance.
Hardly pain is not same as no pain at all. So if there a million dollar belonging to someone else sitting in front of you, are you going to take just because it's good for you. Meat is the same way. If you can survive without causing pain to animals, you should try avoiding unnecessarily killing animals...

Actually it was Kabir Sahib (who was born in Muslim family), who said that you don't even think of how animals suffer when you are killing animals making it a religious practice.
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cali dude
04-14-2007, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Bring me your proof if you're truthful. You're one guy versus billions of others among mankind, from different races and nationalities. :)
Proof we are discussing:

1. Causing unnecessary pain to the animals, when you can survive without killing animal and causing pain, is allowed in your religion.

2. You can not be entirely honest following your path as I have described how you gave me infraction for telling the truth.
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- Qatada -
04-14-2007, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Or maybe because animals and people were not created instantly. Maybe theory of evolution correct...

Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.


[Qur'an 52: 36-7]


As far as I understand a Sikh should eat meat only if there is no other way to survive. That's why most Baptized Sikhs are vegetarians.

Yes the meat issue and also other political issues. When I try to post something about wrongdoings of some of the so-called Sikh leaders, they won't allow me post.

No, there was no distorting. What I said was all facts...

Please, post me proof from your scripture. :)



Hardly pain is not same as no pain at all. So if there a million dollar belonging to someone else sitting in front of you, are you going to take just because it's good for you. Meat is the same way. If you can survive without causing pain to animals, you should try avoiding unnecessarily killing animals...

If Allaah has permitted meat for us, the same way He has permitted for us the riding of animals (which might cause a slight pain to the animal you're riding), or even the milking of a cow for example (which might also cause a slight pain when one milks it) - then there is nothing wrong with that.


The killing of an innocent soul is forbidden by Allaah anyway:

"If anyone slew an innocent person it would be as if he slew the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind"

[Al-Qur’an 5:32]



Actually it was Kabir Sahib (who was born in Muslim family), who said that you don't even think of how animals suffer when you are killing animals making it a religious practice.

Trust me, they don't feel it hardly at all, i already explained to you the concept of cutting the aorta, since that causes the least pain to the animal and its over before they know it. And it's much more humane compared to the methods of electrocution which is a common method practised today.

And being born in a muslim family means nothing :) no soul bears the burden of another, and man is only responsible for his/her own deeds - we don't inherit islaam, but the one who submits to Allaah and obeys His Messenger out of his/her own freewill is a muslim.



Regards.
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- Qatada -
04-14-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Proof we are discussing:

1. Causing unnecessary pain to the animals, when you can survive without killing animal and causing pain, is allowed in your religion.
Look at the above post. thanks. :)


2. You can not be entirely honest following your path as I have described how you gave me infraction for telling the truth.

If you want to complain to the admins (the ones with the red nicks) - please put it forward to them. They'll come upon a common agreement to see if i really did something unjust or not.
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al-fateh
04-14-2007, 03:52 PM
isnt everything about the sikh , is man made?

the concept of following the perfect creator is all corrupt.
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cali dude
04-14-2007, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
isnt everything about the sikh , is man made?

the concept of following the perfect creator is all corrupt.
See this is where the difference is. Would it be OK with you people if someone said the same thing about Islam?

Not too many posts ago, you told me that Islam was fair to all...
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cali dude
04-14-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If you want to complain to the admins (the ones with the red nicks) - please put it forward to them. They'll come upon a common agreement to see if i really did something unjust or not.
Who are those Admins? They are just like you... So why would you expect anything different from them?

But to be truthful, first you need to accept the truth as it is and only then we can come to a truthful conclusion...

Instead, you people like to give infraction against truth. So, how can we even discus truth...

Anyways, my job is to seek truth and make people aware of truth. It really doesn't matter how many infraction you give, you can't force me not to tell the truth...

I saw in a Bollywood movie that Musalmaan meant Muslam Imaan meaning someone with complete dignity. But it seems we have much more dignity than some of the people are supposed to have complete dignity...
Reply

cali dude
04-14-2007, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.


[Qur'an 52: 36-7]
You can read theory of evolution. It for sure makes much more sense than creating Adam and Eve out of mud.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Please, post me proof from your scripture. :)
I don't believe in posting anything here from Guru Granth Sahib. Simply believe me what Kabir Sahib said...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If Allaah has permitted meat for us, the same way He has permitted for us the riding of animals (which might cause a slight pain to the animal you're riding), or even the milking of a cow for example (which might also cause a slight pain when one milks it) - then there is nothing wrong with that.
Do you actually believe the milking a cow hurts her as much as it causes to kill it? Let's at least talk some logic...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

The killing of an innocent soul is forbidden by Allaah anyway:

"If anyone slew an innocent person it would be as if he slew the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind"

[Al-Qur’an 5:32]
As I understand, in fact, I saw this in one of the videos on youtube that for Muslims, the only innocent people are Muslim.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Trust me, they don't feel it hardly at all, i already explained to you the concept of cutting the aorta, since that causes the least pain to the animal and its over before they know it. And it's much more humane compared to the methods of electrocution which is a common method practised today.
Please let's talk about some logic. Try poking your finger. I can assure you, pain of being killed is alot more than poking your own finger. Why do you keep comparing to the other methods used? Did I ever say the other methods were any better than your method? They are both inhumane...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
And being born in a muslim family means nothing :) no soul bears the burden of another, and man is only responsible for his/her own deeds - we don't inherit islaam, but the one who submits to Allaah and obeys His Messenger out of his/her own freewill is a muslim.
Still there is a better world out there...:)
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-15-2007, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Who are those Admins? They are just like you... So why would you expect anything different from them?

But to be truthful, first you need to accept the truth as it is and only then we can come to a truthful conclusion...

Instead, you people like to give infraction against truth. So, how can we even discus truth...

Anyways, my job is to seek truth and make people aware of truth. It really doesn't matter how many infraction you give, you can't force me not to tell the truth...

I saw in a Bollywood movie that Musalmaan meant Muslam Imaan meaning someone with complete dignity. But it seems we have much more dignity than some of the people are supposed to have complete dignity...
My friend, you are in no place to talk about the truth or even debate here, so please keep your dignity before you humilate yourself again like what happened here.

You have had a free rein here, we let you stay on this forum for a long time whilst many people before you with the exact same attitude were banned. We were tolerant with you and Fi_sabilililah in particular went a great distance in trying to explain to you along with the other members, the least you can do is respect him - and the muslims. Every question, allegation, arguement, and misconception you brought forth was patiently responded to and every detail was explained to you. We censored nothing. The thread linked to above is a clear example of this. You resort to the age-old ignorant allegations even after having been provided extensive explanations.

You must really be desperate to demean Islam seeing as how you've tried and failed over and over on this board. You are of a closed heart, you are not here seeking to learn, you are here with the exact same attitude of the anti-Islamists who post allegations yet never read a response. If you have nothing better to do in your life other than attacking Islam, so be it.

However, this bigoted attitude towards Islam and Muslims from you will not be tolerated on this forum furthermore. It has become clear to us that you are not here to learn. If any of your posts are of this nature after this, we will show you the door.

Regards.
Reply

snakelegs
04-15-2007, 01:19 AM
[MOUSE]grossly off topic[/MOUSE]
calidude:
I saw in a Bollywood movie that Musalmaan meant Muslam Imaan meaning someone with complete dignity.
bollywood is hardly a reliable source for information, but is this correct? i've long wondered about the term.
Reply

cali dude
04-15-2007, 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
[MOUSE]grossly off topic[/MOUSE]
calidude:
bollywood is hardly a reliable source for information, but is this correct? i've long wondered about the term.
sorry Imaan means faith...
Reply

cali dude
04-15-2007, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Al Madani
My friend, you are in no place to talk about the truth or even debate here, so please keep your dignity before you humilate yourself again like what happened here.

You have had a free rein here, we let you stay on this forum for a long time whilst many people before you with the exact same attitude were banned. We were tolerant with you and Fi_sabilililah in particular went a great distance in trying to explain to you along with the other members, the least you can do is respect him - and the muslims. Every question, allegation, arguement, and misconception you brought forth was patiently responded to and every detail was explained to you. We censored nothing. The thread linked to above is a clear example of this. You resort to the age-old ignorant allegations even after having been provided extensive explanations.

You must really be desperate to demean Islam seeing as how you've tried and failed over and over on this board. You are of a closed heart, you are not here seeking to learn, you are here with the exact same attitude of the anti-Islamists who post allegations yet never read a response. If you have nothing better to do in your life other than attacking Islam, so be it.

However, this bigoted attitude towards Islam and Muslims from you will not be tolerated on this forum furthermore. It has become clear to us that you are not here to learn. If any of your posts are of this nature after this, we will show you the door.

Regards.
The link you gave me only shows that a true Sikh doesn't commit any sins. So there is nothing wrong with that but you conveniently forgot to response to this post of yours.

I neither favor any religion nor oppose. I simply favor truth. If truth opposes any religion, there is nothing I can do about it and truth is above all religions.
Reply

snakelegs
04-15-2007, 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
sorry Imaan means faith...
thanks. i know imaan means faith. i was curious about the word "musalman" instead of muslim.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-15-2007, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Try giving me proof from your scripture that eating animals is forbidden, then we can discuss this situation further. :) If you don't have proof from your own religious scripture [i.e. the Guru Granth Sahib] - then that isn't truelly showing that sikhism is the more 'better way to live' right?
.
Brother, this is what is stated in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji! - And this is what we follow. The Quran, may state something in favour of consuming meat, but to us God made animals and some are carnivores and some herbivores. All by the will of God. ''And those animals which eat grass-He could make them eat meat. He could make them follow this way of life'' (Guru Nanak Dev)

We humans have the same choice. But who makes the right one.....

Here are a few verses against eating meat in the SGGS.


1- They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world,
And eat a simple diet of grain and water.
(SGGS p467)

2- Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (reborn)
(SGGS p1337)

3- You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain.
(SGGS p332)

4- Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ?
(SGGS p1350)

5- Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt.
You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ?(SGGS p1378)

6- In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;
They eat rotting dead bodies for food.
(SGGS p1242)

7- Sayeth Kabir, sayeth thou by forcefully killing living beings, Halaal.
When in God's house, your accounts be taken, what will then there happen to you!
(SGGS p1375)

Now, to get to the heart of the matter, we are talking about killing another living being , cutting its flesh and muscles which that animal relied upon for its existence and consuming it, primarily for the taste. It has been said that we are designed to eat meat and that we evolved to eat meat. There are many things that we can do but that does not make them right,

BUT, to lay this to rest Dhan Guru Nanak states the following because he knows man does not think he is infalliable so will go on and on about if eating meat is right or wrong. When we go up there we'll know for sure. :statisfie

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.
Gian dhian Nahin Jaaney.
Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey
Kis Mah Paap Samaaney. (pg. 1289-1290)

Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat.
He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on
which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not.
Reply

AB517
04-15-2007, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=Fi_Sabilillah;713137]Try listening to the Qur'an in the arabic language, with a translation in english - verse by verse:

http://sabbir.com/DownloadHalal.html


I'm sure you'll see that none can compare the eloquent Qur'an to any other book.



Here's a good link also which explains who is God, what is worship etc.:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/


Darn it ... I see all great books as eloquent. I see these books more alike than different.

Answer with your heart and mind, use a Book to guide. He speaks to you, now and forever more. He Guides with infinite vision, he loves with infinite love. To be merciful is to say another child of god is lacking (less than me).

I will check this site out ... to find the limits of man put upon them too. I will weep as our father does in heaven ... I will weep for me and all others in this great universe of God's.

AB
Reply

AbuAbdallah
04-15-2007, 01:29 PM
salaam,

What's so bad about eating meat?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-15-2007, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
You can read theory of evolution. It for sure makes much more sense than creating Adam and Eve out of mud.

Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.


[Qur'an 52: 36-7]


Explain to me how the universe was created, not formed into shape. But how it was created, was it created from nothing?

Knowing that Allaah created Adam out of mud is simple, when you die and get buried, what do you turn into? Dust. So what's so hard about believing that one was created from it in the first place.


This is shocking coming from a sikhi also, since i thought you believed in a God. Isn't that the aim of sikhis, to actually 'become' god when they die?



I don't believe in posting anything here from Guru Granth Sahib. Simply believe me what Kabir Sahib said...
How can i believe something which isn't backed up with proof?


Do you actually believe the milking a cow hurts her as much as it causes to kill it? Let's at least talk some logic...

Sure i will, riding a donkey or horse might cause pain to its back. And i've explained that cutting the main artery which leads to the brain causes all the pain to stop anyway, probably even less than riding on a donkey for some hours or years.


As I understand, in fact, I saw this in one of the videos on youtube that for Muslims, the only innocent people are Muslim.
Well the verse refers to mankind.


Please let's talk about some logic. Try poking your finger. I can assure you, pain of being killed is alot more than poking your own finger. Why do you keep comparing to the other methods used? Did I ever say the other methods were any better than your method? They are both inhumane...

I'm sure that cutting an electrical cable of a computer would shut the rest of the system off, similarly - cutting the nerve which sends the signal of pain would cause minimum pain to the animal also.



Still there is a better world out there...:)

I don't see it. :)
Reply

AbuAbdallah
04-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Now, to get to the heart of the matter, we are talking about killing another living being , cutting its flesh and muscles which that animal relied upon for its existence and consuming it, primarily for the taste. It has been said that we are designed to eat meat and that we evolved to eat meat. There are many things that we can do but that does not make them right,
So is it wrong to harvest trees to use for lumber? We don't need tables and chairs, so why use them?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-16-2007, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah
So is it wrong to harvest trees to use for lumber? We don't need tables and chairs, so why use them?
You tried consuming a tree....?

You can argue plants have life to, but it's not equal to animals or human.... Consequences of eating plants do not compare to those of an animal which has feeling, possible thoughts, parental instincts towards its offspring, also plants (lentils, maize , spinach etc) are not harmful on a mental, spiritual level but are in fact good for the digestion. Scientists proved this.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah


This is shocking coming from a sikhi also, since i thought you believed in a God. Isn't that the aim of sikhis, to actually 'become' God when they die?

)
You have proof of this statment from the Scriptures?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-16-2007, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You have proof of this statment from the Scriptures?

Avar, what can i do if i have to believe everything that cali dude says - even if he never brings proof for it? What else can i rely on? Shall i just ignore his posts from now on then?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-16-2007, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Avar, what can i do if i have to believe everything that cali dude says - even if he never brings proof for it? What else can i rely on? Shall i just ignore his posts from now on then?
I can't comment on ignoring him or not. But bearing in mind my or his personal opinions count for nothing. :)
Reply

AbuAbdallah
04-16-2007, 04:43 PM
compare to those of an animal which has feeling, possible thoughts, parental instincts towards its offspring
Plants don't possess these traits?

So it's okay to kill plants, but animals have possible thoughts or parental insticts so it is not okay?
Reply

Ghira
04-16-2007, 07:57 PM
:sl:
I think one verse explains this concept Sura Al Baiyinah verse 5.

"Verily, those who disbelieve from amongst the people of the book (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun (worshipping partners beside Allah) will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures."

Why the long post?
Reply

al-fateh
04-16-2007, 08:07 PM
verse 6 sister :)
Reply

cali dude
04-17-2007, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.


[Qur'an 52: 36-7]


Explain to me how the universe was created, not formed into shape. But how it was created, was it created from nothing?

Knowing that Allaah created Adam out of mud is simple, when you die and get buried, what do you turn into? Dust. So what's so hard about believing that one was created from it in the first place.


This is shocking coming from a sikhi also, since i thought you believed in a God. Isn't that the aim of sikhis, to actually 'become' god when they die?
Just because what you say about creation doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't mean I don't believe in God.

If I were capable of reading and understanding Guru Granth Sahib entirely, I would tell you for sure what Guru Granth Sahib says about creation of the universe.

But theory of evolution (please do check it) does logically make better sense than creating Adam and Eve out of mud. Does it really sense that God created Adam and Eve out of dirt and yet created animals out of meat, when there human and animals share so many biological similarities? Do you ever wonder how soul was created?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
How can i believe something which isn't backed up with proof?
Avar gave you many quotes, which I usually don't like to do...
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Sure i will, riding a donkey or horse might cause pain to its back. And i've explained that cutting the main artery which leads to the brain causes all the pain to stop anyway, probably even less than riding on a donkey for some hours or years.
Horses and donkeys are capable of easily carrying certain weight. But yes, it would be wrong to load them up with so much weight that causes them pain.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I'm sure that cutting an electrical cable of a computer would shut the rest of the system off, similarly - cutting the nerve which sends the signal of pain would cause minimum pain to the animal also.
Still minimum is more than none. But I don't think it happens this way though. How do you find the nerve without cutting the skin?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I don't see it. :)
That's because you have been brainwashed in certain way.
Reply

Ghira
04-17-2007, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by al-fateh
verse 6 sister :)
Thank you for the correction..I am a brother in Islam :)
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Just because what you say about creation doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't mean I don't believe in God.

If I were capable of reading and understanding Guru Granth Sahib entirely, I would tell you for sure what Guru Granth Sahib says about creation of the universe.

If you don't have a logical answer, then don't bother attacking the logical answer which i gave you - God created everything from nothing. It's easy for Him to do that since He is God, and He is the Originater.


But theory of evolution (please do check it) does logically make better sense than creating Adam and Eve out of mud. Does it really sense that God created Adam and Eve out of dirt and yet created animals out of meat, when there human and animals share so many biological similarities? Do you ever wonder how soul was created?

No the evolution theory doesn't make more sense, since the evolutionists don't know where the first 'living' cell came from.


Anyway, to answer your second question - theres a good explanation here:


What was Man created from?


The allegation is as follows:

What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

The obvious explanation to this question is that these references describe different aspects or stages in man's creation. This has always been the understanding of such verses.

We will give a brief explanation of each verse, while presenting them in chronological order.

Most of the references refer to two different aspects of creation: Original creation and Embryological development.
Original creation

19:67 Does not man remember that We created him before, and he was nothing?

The phrase and he was nothing is the translation of the arabic wa lam yaku shay. Some confusion may have resulted because Yusuf Ali's translation renders it as out of nothing, which is not very accurate at all. The phrase literally means, and he was nothing.

Hence, this verse states that human beings were nothing, and Allah brought us into existence. This is a tremendous favour bestowed upon us, that we may be thankful to Allah swt.

This is allegedly in contradiction to the following verse:

52:35 Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Ibn Kathir Ad-Damishqi (d.1372CE) has explained this verse as follows in his renowned Tafsir Al-Qur'an Al-Azim:
Allah asks them, were they created without a maker or did they create themselves Neither is true. Allah is the One Who created them and brought them into existence after they were nothing.(Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged, Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, 2000, vol. 9, p. 297)
Hence, this verse is not in contradiction to the previous verse at all, after closer examination. Even if we choose to translate verse 52:35 as "Were they created from nothing..." it would also be correct as Allah swt developed the human being from previously created substances.

20:55 Thereof (the earth) We created you, and into it We shall return you, and from it We shall bring you out once again

The original creation of Adam pbuh was from the dust of the earth.

30:20 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!

This dust was then mixed with water to produce what is mentioned in the following verse:
15:26 And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud [min hama’in masnoon]

An interesting commentary on these verses has been provided here:
http://harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_08.php#1


Sheikh Muhammad Mutwalli Ash-Sha`rawi also comments:
If we take dust and add water to it, it will be mud. If it is left for some time, it will turn into clay. These are simply the stages of the creation of man. Man thus comes from dust, turned into clay after the addition of water. If we scrutinize this issue, we will find out that man, in his daily life, needs earth and depends on it in so many aspects. It is this earthy soil where we grow the plants upon which we live. Thus, preserving the materials of man depends on the source from which these materials are created.


Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth?s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes.


In addition, death itself serves as a proof of creation. When we try to demolish a building, we follow the reverse order of building it; we start with the last floor. By the same token, since we have not eye-witnessed the creation of man, then we shall see how death occurs. Actually, we witness several deaths everyday. When man dies, his soul leaves his body, then the decline starts; his body becomes dry (which is similar to the stage of clay) and then decays and turns finally into dust which was his original substance. Life is given to man through the soul that is blown into his body. When the soul departs, man dies and starts his way back to his original form going through the stages of his first creation. Thus, death stands as a living proof for creation (SOURCE)
21:30...We made of water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
This verse explains that all living things are composed of water.

Dr. Zakir Naik has commented on the above verse by saying:
Only after advances have been made in science, do we now know that cytoplasm, the basic substance of the cell is made up of 80% water. Modern research has also revealed that most organisms consist of 50% to 90% water and that every living entity requires water for its existence. Was it possible 14 centuries ago for any human-being to guess that every living being was made of water? Moreover would such a guess be conceivable by a human being in the deserts of Arabia where there has always been scarcity of water? (SOURCE)
The following link also comments on this:
http://www.-----------------------/scientific_58.html


Embryological development

16:4 He has created man from a nutfah; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!

Dr. Omar Abdul Rehman has explained this as follow:
Nutfah (The drop)

Al-Nutfah in Arabic means a drop or a small part of fluid and Nutfah in general describes a stage where the beginnings of a human being are found in this fluid (Ref: 6A, 12/6; 17/118; 19/120: 13A, 3/436: 15A, 17/116: 1C, 2/121: 7B, 3/116: 4D, 9/235-6: 5D, 6/258: 4A, 30/234: 7A, 4/336: 10A, 13/9: 12A, 4/288). Its real meaning can only be deduced from the text of Qur'an; evidently it is a comprehensive term and includes male and female gametes and part of their natural environments of fluid. It also includes zygote, morula and blastocyst till implantation in the uterus. This is illustrated by the following citation:


"was he not a drop or part of germinal fluid (Mani) emitted or programmed" (Surah Al- Qiyama, Ayah 37)

Here "Mani" means male or female germinal fluid (Ref: 1D, 5/276: 5D, 10/348:2D, 6/2497).

The Prophet's Hadith confirms the fact that the offspring is created from part of the germinal fluids.

"Not from all the fluid is the offspring created"

(Sahih. Muslim: Kitab Al-Nekah, Bab Al-Azl)

It is also known that not all parts of the ejaculate are equally potent in the fertilisation process. "In the first portion of the ejaculate are the spermatozoa, epididymal fluids, and the secretions from the Cowper and prostate gland fluids. In the last portions of the ejaculate are the secretions of the seminal vesicles. Most spermatozoa appear in the first part of the ejaculate, which is made primarily of prostatic secretions. Thus spermatozoa in the initial portion of the ejaculate have better motility and survival than those in the later portions, which are chiefly vesicular in origin". (SOURCE)
And concerning the verse:
96:2 Created man, out of a (mere) clot of an Alaqah
Dr. Omar Abdul Rehman states:
The 'Alaqah stage

"Then (thumm) We made the drop into an 'Alaqah". (Surah Al-Mu 'minun, Ayah 14)

In Arabic the word ‘Alaqah in fact has several meanings;


  • something which clings or a suspended thing (Ref: 7B, 5/440: 1D, 4/125: 2D, 4/1529: 3D, 343: 4D, 10/267: 5D, 7/20)
  • a leech-like structure (Ref: 9A, 3/242: 20A, 2/281: 7B, 5/139: 2D, 4/1529: 3D, 343: 4D, 10/267)
Amazingly each of these terms can be applied to the developing embryo with stunning precision. All of these terms encompassed by the word ‘Alaqah describe the appearance of the embryo as well as its relationship with the womb. From the discussion below it becomes clear that the embryo resembles a primitive multicellular organism which is attached to a host and feeding on its blood.

a) something which clings

Modern science informs us that once the egg has been fertilised in the Fallopian tube it undergoes successive divisions to form a ball like structure of 12-16 cells by the third day. This structure is called a blastocyst and it reaches the uterus in 4 to 5 days. The blastocyst then lies free in the uterine secretions for a further 2 days. About a week after fertilisation the blastocyst begins to attach and implant into the uterine wall. By the 11th to 12th day it is completely embedded in the uterine wall. At this stage chorionic villosities begin to develop like roots in the soil, these draw nourishment from the uterus necessary for the blastocyst's growth. These formations cover the whole blastocyst and make it literally cling to the uterus. By the end of the second week implantation is complete. Inside the blastocyst the embryo is anchored to the wall of the chorionic cavity by a connecting stalk. Hence, these different ways of clinging and attachment seem to represent the most dominant features from day 7 to 21, and are perfectly described in the Qur'anic description by the word ‘Alaqah. For greater detail see S. Hussain (1986) ‘Al-‘Alaq:the mystery explored, Ark Journal, London, pp. 31-36.

b) a suspended thing

The 3 week old embryo inside the blastocyst which is embedded in the uterine wall is seen to be suspended in the chorionic cavity by means of the connecting stalk and is surrounded by the amniotic cavity and the yolk sac. Therefore, the term ‘Alaqah accurately describes the suspended embryo after it has been implanted.

c) a leech-like structure

The word ‘Alaqah can also be translated as ‘leech like structure'. The leech is a elongated pear shaped creature which thrives on blood sucking. At this stage of development the embryo from top view does bear a resemblance to a leech. This resemblance is even more marked if the 24 day old embryo is seen from the side. It is also interesting to note that the embryo is now dependent on the maternal blood for its nutrition and behaves very much like a leech!. (For greater detail see Moore, KL. ‘A scientists interpretation of references to embryology in the Qur'an.' Journal of the Islamic Medical Association of US and Canada, 1986, 18:15, and Moore, KL. and Azzindani, AMA.: "The Developing Human, Clinically Orientated Embryology, With Islamic Additions". 3rd Ed., Dar Al-Qiblah and WB Saunders).

In conclusion, whichever of the above terms are used to translate the word ‘Alaqah they are all stunningly accurate descriptions of the embryo at this stage in it's development as confirmed by modern science.

There is a gap of a few days between the stages of implantation (Nutfah) and 'Alaqah and this period is clearly explained by the above Ayah:

The word "Thumm" in Arabic is a conjunction indicating a time lag and the Ayah will, therefore, mean that after some time we created the "Nutfah" into 'Alaqah. (SOURCE)
These explanations make it evident that each verse is describing different stages in the creation of man.

Avar gave you many quotes, which I usually don't like to do...

Well its hard to believe anything you say then since we've had previous discussions which Avar himself disagreed with in what you said. So please bring proof for what you say, otherwise i think it's better that i ignore it.



Horses and donkeys are capable of easily carrying certain weight. But yes, it would be wrong to load them up with so much weight that causes them pain.

Is that mentioned in your scripture also? Or is that your personal opinion?



Still minimum is more than none. But I don't think it happens this way though. How do you find the nerve without cutting the skin?

It's quite well known that its in the neck area. I think everyone knows that.


That's because you have been brainwashed in certain way.

Please keep your insults to yourself. Thanks. :)
Reply

cali dude
04-17-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If you don't have a logical answer, then don't bother attacking the logical answer which i gave you - God created everything from nothing. It's easy for Him to do that since He is God, and He is the Originater.
That's because your logic is not really logical. It isn't logical to say God must have created human from dirt because when humans are buried, they become dirt and yet animals must have been created from meat even though the same happens to them, i.e. they also become dirt. Plus how about the bones? Bones don't become dirt as fast as rest of the human body. Dinosaur's bones were found millions of years. This is another issue. Nobody know when Adam and Eve were supposedly created. Were they created before dinosaurs?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
No the evolution theory doesn't make more sense, since the evolutionists don't know where the first 'living' cell came from.
So whatever power, whether it's God or not, is behind the creation created the first cell.
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Anyway, to answer your second question - theres a good explanation here:
It was pretty much repetition what you have already summed up.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Well its hard to believe anything you say then since we've had previous discussions which Avar himself disagreed with in what you said. So please bring proof for what you say, otherwise i think it's better that i ignore it.
Just because he disagrees with certain interpretation of Gurbani, it doesn't mean my interpretation is wrong. One usually needs to read entire shabad in order to properly grasp Gurbani properly. You can't conclude a shabad from just one line.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Is that mentioned in your scripture also? Or is that your personal opinion?
I have not written a scripture. So, there is no such thing as my scripture. But if you so much believe in not causing pain to the animals, doesn't it make sense not to put more weight than they can easily handle?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It's quite well known that its in the neck area. I think everyone knows that.
Can you cut the neck area without causing any pain at all? Do they never cause pain? I had heard they slaughter the animal slowly while reading some religious stuff.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Please keep your insults to yourself. Thanks. :)
This is nothing compared to you telling non-Muslims that they are going to hell:)
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
That's because your logic is not really logical. It isn't logical to say God must have created human from dirt because when humans are buried, they become dirt and yet animals must have been created from meat even though the same happens to them, i.e. they also become dirt. Plus how about the bones? Bones don't become dirt as fast as rest of the human body.

You really think so? Maybe you could bring scientific proof otherwise? I don't see you bring none of that forward, atleast science proves Islaam. And that's proof that Islaam is correct since things which dont seem 'logical' to you have been proven.

So if you're truthful, bring your proof. I've brought mine forward.


Dinosaur's bones were found millions of years. This is another issue. Nobody know when Adam and Eve were supposedly created. Were they created before dinosaurs?
Allaah knows best, like i've said before - it wouldn't really matter to us whether they were or not. Since that wouldn't increase us or weaken us in our faith regarding Allaah, the Creator of all things.


So whatever power, whether it's God or not, is behind the creation created the first cell.
It was God, that's what i've stated. You're the one saying otherwise.


It was pretty much repetition what you have already summed up.
No, it was scientific proof.



Just because he disagrees with certain interpretation of Gurbani, it doesn't mean my interpretation is wrong. One usually needs to read entire shabad in order to properly grasp Gurbani properly. You can't conclude a shabad from just one line.
Then i dont need to accept anything you've said right? Since your book can be interpreted anyway one desires.


I have not written a scripture. So, there is no such thing as my scripture. But if you so much believe in not causing pain to the animals, doesn't it make sense not to put more weight than they can easily handle?
Well this goes back to you again, since you believe that animals shouldn't be hurt in any minor way, then no-one should sit on them either right? And if you agree with that, then i can bring you a whole list of famous sikhi figures who actually rode animals. Therefore your contradicting yourself.



Can you cut the neck area without causing any pain at all? Do they never cause pain? I had heard they slaughter the animal slowly while reading some religious stuff.
You've heard wrong, again. Do you know how long it takes to say the word 'bismillah' (in the name of Allah) ? That isn't a long time now is it? :)


This is nothing compared to you telling non-Muslims that they are going to hell:)
Well why should someone be rewarded for taking God's message in mockery? They should be punished since the clear signs came to them - but they felt too arrogant to submit. They rejected Allaah and said wrong things about Him of which they had no knowledge, so what other reward should there be for the wrongdoers?
Reply

cali dude
04-17-2007, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
You really think so? Maybe you could bring scientific proof otherwise? I don't see you bring none of that forward, atleast science proves Islaam. And that's proof that Islaam is correct since things which dont seem 'logical' to you have been proven.

So if you're truthful, bring your proof. I've brought mine forward.
Theory of evolution is scientific theory. So I do believe the theory of evolution is more logical than yours, i.e. instead of God creating man and woman, the cell the was created first and then everything else followed as per theory of evolution.

There have been other incidents when science has proven religion wrong, e.g. Galileo was thrown into prison when he said that earth was not flat?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Allaah knows best, like i've said before - it wouldn't really matter to us whether they were or not. Since that wouldn't increase us or weaken us in our faith regarding Allaah, the Creator of all things.
But it would confirm or deny your theory.
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It was God, that's what i've stated. You're the one saying otherwise.
The only difference is that you think God created man and woman in form of body and I am saying that God probably created the cell and then everything else followed...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
No, it was scientific proof.
It would be scientific proof if science proved that God created man/woman from dust. It was more of a religious people's attempt to prove their theory scientifically.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Then i dont need to accept anything you've said right? Since your book can be interpreted anyway one desires.
It can be misinterpreted by those who don't read the entirely shabad or by those who entirely understand it. But there are quite a few stuff that are very clear.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Well this goes back to you again, since you believe that animals shouldn't be hurt in any minor way, then no-one should sit on them either right? And if you agree with that, then i can bring you a whole list of famous sikhi figures who actually rode animals. Therefore your contradicting yourself.
Like I said, it would be wrong to overload them. I don't see why it would be so wrong to let a horse carry weight not too heavy.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
You've heard wrong, again. Do you know how long it takes to say the word 'bismillah' (in the name of Allah) ? That isn't a long time now is it? :)
But it still doesn't answer the other question. Can you actually cut the nerve without cutting the skin and causing no pain at all? Even minor pain is more than no pain.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Well why should someone be rewarded for taking God's message in mockery? They should be punished since the clear signs came to them - but they felt too arrogant to submit. They rejected Allaah and said wrong things about Him of which they had no knowledge, so what other reward should there be for the wrongdoers?
That's simply Muslims' opinion. There is no proof that those who reject Islam (Mohammad's preaching) will go or went to hell.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Theory of evolution is scientific theory. So I do believe the theory of evolution is more logical than yours, i.e. instead of God creating man and woman, the cell the was created first and then everything else followed as per theory of evolution.

Okay, your opinion V billions of others. Safe :)


There have been other incidents when science has proven religion wrong, e.g. Galileo was thrown into prison when he said that earth was not flat?
Yes, maybe other false religions - not Islaam.


But it would confirm or deny your theory.

The only difference is that you think God created man and woman in form of body and I am saying that God probably created the cell and then everything else followed...

I know that's not sikhi beliefs, but if its your beliefs - then you have the right to believe so. But in the end - the disbelievers will be the losers, and they will have no helper.


It would be scientific proof if science proved that God created man/woman from dust. It was more of a religious people's attempt to prove their theory scientifically.
No, every point made was explained using logic and science.

Science itself depends on reverse methods also. They might not have seen dinosaurs, but they saw the fossils, and from that they thought that they were existing once upon a time.

Same way we use a similar method by seeing how man dies, and gradually turns into dust. Which proves that man originated from dust. As explained in the article:

Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth?s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes.

It can be misinterpreted by those who don't read the entirely shabad or by those who entirely understand it. But there are quite a few stuff that are very clear.
Which one do you belong to? How do i know who has the correct understanding, you or Avar?


Like I said, it would be wrong to overload them. I don't see why it would be so wrong to let a horse carry weight not too heavy.
Maybe because it causes the animal pain? I.e. if a heavy man sits on it for example?


But it still doesn't answer the other question. Can you actually cut the nerve without cutting the skin and causing no pain at all? Even minor pain is more than no pain.
Yes, it may cause a minute amount of pain. However it lasts for a minimal amount of time only. And again, if this is so bad - how come riding an animal isn't as bad which is more longer lasting?


That's simply Muslims' opinion. There is no proof that those who reject Islam (Mohammad's preaching) will go or went to hell.
Yes there is, everything has been made clear to you. You can't argue otherwise. Bear witness that we are muslims, and you can wait - we too are waiting for that day to come. Then Allaah will judge us on what we differ. And in the end - it is only the believers who are successful.
Reply

cali dude
04-17-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yes, maybe other false religions - not Islaam.
But you believe in other theories of that religion, don't you?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I know that's not sikhi beliefs, but if its your beliefs - then you have the right to believe so. But in the end - the disbelievers will be the losers, and they will have no helper.
Losers might be those who don't believe in the truth. Those who never try to find out the truth can never believe in truth, thus may turn out to be losers. Just because some religious theory doesn't make sense to someone, it doesn't mean s/he is a loser.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
No, every point made was explained using logic and science.

Science itself depends on reverse methods also. They might not have seen dinosaurs, but they saw the fossils, and from that they thought that they were existing once upon a time.

Same way we use a similar method by seeing how man dies, and gradually turns into dust. Which proves that man originated from dust. As explained in the article:

Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth?s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes.
Then why would say that human body and animal body were created from different materials when they both end up the same way and are biologically similar to each other?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Which one do you belong to? How do i know who has the correct understanding, you or Avar?
There is no Sikh who can claim to know what exactly Guru Granth Sahib means and there were someone who did, they would have realized God by now. Therefore, we can simply discuss differences in interpretation and try finding a common one by looking at the whole picture rather than one of two lines.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Maybe because it causes the animal pain? I.e. if a heavy man sits on it for example?
Of course, it would inappropriate for a man ride a goat for example. But a horse can easily carry a man. So, it would be OK for a horse to carry a man. However, having a horse pull an overloaded buggy, as they usually do in India and probably in Pakistan as well, would be wrong.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yes, it may cause a minute amount of pain. However it lasts for a minimal amount of time only. And again, if this is so bad - how come riding an animal isn't as bad which is more longer lasting?
Riding an animal would cause only if overloaded.
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Yes there is, everything has been made clear to you. You can't argue otherwise. Bear witness that we are muslims, and you can wait - we too are waiting for that day to come. Then Allaah will judge us on what we differ. And in the end - it is only the believers who are successful.
True believer is the one who finds out the absolute truth and believes in it, not just about anything a religion says and The Truth is not confined to any religion.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
But you believe in other theories of that religion, don't you?

What theories do you mean?


Losers might be those who don't believe in the truth. Those who never try to find out the truth can never believe in truth, thus may turn out to be losers. Just because some religious theory doesn't make sense to someone, it doesn't mean s/he is a loser.
The One who rejects the clear truth when it comes to them is the loser, in this world and the next.


Then why would say that human body and animal body were created from different materials when they both end up the same way and are biologically similar to each other?
I never said humans weren't made out of meat, but we do know that they were created from dust at the beginning.


There is no Sikh who can claim to know what exactly Guru Granth Sahib means and there were someone who did, they would have realized God by now. Therefore, we can simply discuss differences in interpretation and try finding a common one by looking at the whole picture rather than one of two lines.
Okay, so no-one really knows what the scripture means now?


Of course, it would inappropriate for a man ride a goat for example. But a horse can easily carry a man. So, it would be OK for a horse to carry a man. However, having a horse pull an overloaded buggy, as they usually do in India and probably in Pakistan as well, would be wrong.
But what if the horse feels pain?


Riding an animal would cause only if overloaded.
How do you know that? What if it feels the pain but it doesn't say "I'm in pain!" ?



True believer is the one who finds out the absolute truth and believes in it, not just about anything a religion says and The Truth is not confined to any religion.

It is actually, since God wouldn't create us for no purpose and leave us to wander in the darkness.



This is getting quite boring seriosly. And i'm sure many others agree.
Reply

cali dude
04-17-2007, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
What theories do you mean?
Like theory of Adam and Eve?
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The One who rejects the clear truth when it comes to them is the loser, in this world and the next.
If it were clear, it couldn't be rejected, could it?
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I never said humans weren't made out of meat, but we do know that they were created from dust at the beginning.
OK, so since when the humans started to be made out of meat?:)
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Okay, so no-one really knows what the scripture means now?
Guru Granth Sahib is spiritual wisdom. It's very difficult to find someone who is spiritually wise enough to grasp Guru Granth Sahib.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
But what if the horse feels pain?
Then it would be wrong to ride it...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
How do you know that? What if it feels the pain but it doesn't say "I'm in pain!" ?
Apparently, animals try to run away when they know that they are about to be slaughtered. That's their way to communicating that they don't like being slaughtered.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It is actually, since God wouldn't create us for no purpose and leave us to wander in the darkness.
No, God did create us for a wonderful purpose and that purpose is to find the absolute truth and meditate on His name. Human life is the only life where it's much easier to do and this is a wonderful opportunity.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
04-17-2007, 06:24 PM
You two at it again.....
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Like theory of Adam and Eve?
We know its a fact. Do you continously just want to go in circles over and over again?

Prove to me that mankind was not start from a man and a woman?


If it were clear, it couldn't be rejected, could it?
The truth can be rejected actually, yet people still turn away from it even when it becomes apparent.


OK, so since when the humans started to be made out of meat?:)
Adam when alive was meat, we as humans are also meat. And a foetus within a woman's womb is also meat. As explained in the earlier explanation.


Guru Granth Sahib is spiritual wisdom. It's very difficult to find someone who is spiritually wise enough to grasp Guru Granth Sahib.
So no-one can truely understand it? So what's the point of it?


Then it would be wrong to ride it...
Is that mentioned in your scripture?


Apparently, animals try to run away when they know that they are about to be slaughtered. That's their way to communicating that they don't like being slaughtered.
Animals also run away if they don't want to be ridden on.


No, God did create us for a wonderful purpose and that purpose is to find the absolute truth and meditate on His name. Human life is the only life where it's much easier to do and this is a wonderful opportunity.
Okay, so you found the absolute truth yet? Are you the only one in the world right now who's upon that truth?
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You two at it again.....

Don't blame me man, i agree that it's tiring.
Reply

cali dude
04-17-2007, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
We know its a fact. Do you continously just want to go in circles over and over again?

Prove to me that mankind was not start from a man and a woman?
If you tell us how long ago Adam and Eve were created, then it would be very clear whether or not they were created before dinosaurs.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The truth can be rejected actually, yet people still turn away from it even when it becomes apparent.
Not to the honest ones...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Adam when alive was meat, we as humans are also meat. And a foetus within a woman's womb is also meat. As explained in the earlier explanation.
So what you are saying is that originally they were created from clay, now they are meat? Does it really make sense?
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
So no-one can truely understand it? So what's the point of it?
Only people with spiritual wisdom can understand Guru Granth Sahib. So someone will need to develop spiritual wisdom in order to understand properly.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Is that mentioned in your scripture?
I haven't written any scriptures. If I had, it would say so...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Animals also run away if they don't want to be ridden on.
That's usually not true unless they are hurting or something...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Okay, so you found the absolute truth yet? Are you the only one in the world right now who's upon that truth?
I believe Sikhi is absolute truth as there is nothing in Sikhi that can be counter-argued using a valid argument.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
If you tell us how long ago Adam and Eve were created, then it would be very clear whether or not they were created before dinosaurs.
It won't really effect us on our faith whether they were created before or after.


Not to the honest ones...
Totally true.


So what you are saying is that originally they were created from clay, now they are meat? Does it really make sense?
Lets use the forward button - when man dies, he is meat. But when he is buried, he gradually turns into dust. :)


Only people with spiritual wisdom can understand Guru Granth Sahib. So someone will need to develop spiritual wisdom in order to understand properly.
Okay.


I haven't written any scriptures. If I had, it would say so...
I understand.


That's usually not true unless they are hurting or something...
It happens.


I believe Sikhi is absolute truth as there is nothing in Sikhi that can be counter-argued using a valid argument.
Maybe we could discuss this in depth if we truelly knew what Sikhi beliefs are. However, it's hard to believe anything you say about Sikhi beliefs, since other Sikhi's on the forum disagree with you. And therefore i can't counter something which doesn't have a basis.



I think the discussions over now, and therefore we can close the thread. If bro al-fateh wants to open it again, he can PM a mod inshaa Allaah.


Thread Closed.
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