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MTAFFI
04-24-2007, 08:37 PM
Al-Qaida-linked group claims U.S. deaths By HAMID AHMED, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 23 minutes ago



BAGHDAD - An al-Qaida-linked group claimed responsibility Tuesday for double suicide truck bombings that killed nine U.S. paratroopers in the worst attack on American ground forces in Iraq in more than a year, saying it sent "two knights" for the attack.

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The Islamic State of Iraq, an umbrella group of Sunni militants that includes al-Qaida in Iraq, said it was behind Monday's double attack on a U.S. patrol base in Diyala province northeast of Baghdad — an area that has seen violence spike since American troops surged into the capital to halt violence there.

"The first knight exploded his truck on them and he was followed by his brother in the second truck, exploding it on what remains from the soldiers inside the headquarters," said the statement, posted on a militant Web site.

The victims were all members of the Army's 82nd Airborne Division, said a spokesman for the Fort Bragg, N.C.-based unit. It was the highest number of casualties for the division since the war began, Maj. Tom Earnhardt said.

"We are recovering, supporting the families during this time of loss, praying for them and continuing our mission," said Lt. Col. Michael Donnelly, the U.S. military spokesman in northern Iraq. "The enemy brings nothing to benefit the people — nothing."

In its Web posting Tuesday, the Islamic State of Iraq, an insurgent umbrella group that includes al-Qaida, put the number of Americans killed at 30.

"Almighty God has guided the soldiers of the Islamic State of Iraq to new methods of explosions," it said without elaborating. The message appeared on a Web site that frequently airs communications from militants, but its authenticity could not be independently confirmed.

According to a senior Pentagon official, Monday's attack involved suicide bombers in two large dump trucks. One of the trucks got very close to the Sadah patrol base building, and the other one was further away, the official said, adding that at least some of the casualties may have been caused by the collapse of two walls.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information has not yet been released, also said that 15 of the 20 troops who were injured have returned to duty.

It was single deadliest attack on ground forces since Dec. 1, 2005, when a roadside bomb killed 10 Marines and wounded 11 on a foot patrol near Fallujah. Twelve soldiers died when a Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Diyala on Jan. 20. The military said it might have been shot down but the investigation is still ongoing.

The use of a suicide bomber in a direct assault against U.S. forces was unusual. Militants, seeking to avoid American firepower, have mostly used hit-and-run ambushes, roadside bombs or mortars on U.S. troops.

On Feb. 19, insurgents struck a U.S. combat post in Tarmiyah, about 30 miles north of Baghdad, killing two soldiers and wounding 17 in what the military called a "coordinated attack." It began with a suicide car bombing followed by gunfire on soldiers pinned down in a former Iraqi police station where fuel storage tanks were set ablaze by the blast.

American troops are facing increasing danger as they step up their presence in outposts and police stations in Baghdad and areas surrounding the city, as part of the security crackdown to which U.S. President George W. Bush has committed an extra 30,000 troops.

Sunni militants are believed to have withdrawn to surrounding areas such as Diyala where they have safe haven. The U.S. command also deployed an extra 700 soldiers to the province last month.

In telephone interviews, residents of the Ameen area south of Baqouba on Tuesday described what they believed was the same attack that killed the nine soldiers.

The residents, spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear for their safety, said gunmen first fired on American snipers at a U.S. base housed in an old Iraqi primary school, then a suicide car bomb rammed a checkpoint at the school's entrance, breaking through blast walls and other fortifications. The first explosion left a path for a second suicide vehicle, a truck, to approach the building, the witnesses said.

Several American soldiers were caught beneath the building as it collapsed in the explosion, the residents said.

Another U.S. soldier was also killed Monday in a roadside bombing in Diyala, the military said — bringing the daily American death toll to 10. A British soldier was also shot to death while on patrol in the southern city of Basra, officials said.

The deaths raised to 85 the number of U.S. service members who died have in Iraq in April, making it the deadliest month for American troops since December, when 112 died.

Police in the same province as the attack on the U.S. base said gunmen disguised as Iraqi soldiers killed six Iraqis and burned five homes Tuesday in an unrelated attack. South of the capital, a family of seven was shot to death in their beds at dawn by masked gunmen, neighbors and police said.

On the outskirts of Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province, a suicide truck bomb exploded at a police checkpoint on the outskirts of Ramadi city on Tuesday, killing 15 people, police said.

And in Baghdad, two bombs went off outside the Iranian Embassy on Tuesday for the second consecutive day. Six civilians were injured, police said. Tension has risen over allegations by the U.S. and some Sunni politicians in Iraq about alleged Iranian interference in the country.

Eighty-three Iraqis were killed or found dead around the country in those attacks and others.

British forces transferred another military base to Iraqi troops in Basra in the country's south, ahead of the planned withdrawal this summer of about half of Britain's contribution to the U.S.-led coalition here. Two other British bases — al-Saie and Shatt al-Arab — were turned over to Iraqi forces in Basra, Iraq's second-largest city, in the past month.

The bulk of Britain's about 7,500 soldiers in the city will now operate from a base at Basra's main airport.

In other violence Tuesday, two mortar rounds hit a market in southern Baghdad, killing 10 people and wounding 16 others, including women and children, police said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070424/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

So here again we see who is on the side of right and wrong. Today in Iraq, the dealiest day in nearly 5 months, a whole 9 US soldiers died at the hands of two suicide bombers, with dump trucks. In the whole month, only 85 have sadly died. However, while killing those soldiers (as is to be expected in war) the groups have also managed to kill 83 civilians. Does this disgust anyone anymore or is it just common place in this country? These groups killed nearly as many civilians in one day as they have soldiers in a month, and these are the same groups that wish to run the country. So again I ask, is the US at war with Iraq or are these political and religious extremist at war? Who is trying to do the right thing and who is doing the wrong? Absolutely and totally disgusting display of character and respect for life, these people have...
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MTAFFI
04-25-2007, 07:49 PM
bump
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Keltoi
04-25-2007, 09:13 PM
A Taliban spokesman also said today that the attempted bombing during Dick Cheney's trip to Afghanistan was planned by Bin Laden. Most experts think this is simply hot air, but it does seem Al-Qaeda is trying to stay in the news one way or another.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-26-2007, 12:17 AM
Iraqis fight as they fight, does it disgust anyone or does not - doesn't really matter for people on the ground.

Countries don't get invaded everyday, when it happens - people react, iraqis reacted the way they do, I expected the resistance. Let's not generalize, there are iraqis who target invaders and avoid civil casualties, if I were iraqi and had the guts and the opportunity I would've made it my duty to kill as many invaders as I can avoiding civil casualties(why would i want to kill my brother anyway?).

Do you expect that anyone on this forum will say that they condone muslims killing muslims? Or do you expect that someone would say that iraqis fighting invaders are wrong and should stop?
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 12:49 AM
This is more about Al-Qaeda than the Iraqi "resistance", whatever that is. Whether these claims of Al-Qaeda affiliation are true or not is another matter. I suppose it doesn't matter really.
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Abdul Fattah
04-26-2007, 12:52 AM
I know this is an old one, but I'm gonna post it anyway :p
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-26-2007, 01:02 AM
This is more about Al-Qaeda than the Iraqi "resistance", whatever that is. Whether these claims of Al-Qaeda affiliation are true or not is another matter. I suppose it doesn't matter really.
It's about AQ for you maybe, but for iraqi fighters that's very likely just a meaningless word, he picks up a gun or a roadside-bomb or whatever and for him
it's simple, it's about foreigners in uniforms occupying his country and he wants them out and he fights, not for Saddam, not for AQ, he doesn't care about AQ, he doesn't care about politics, he doesn't know,he has no time or interest but he has self-esteem, he doesn't like foreigners running his country.
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
It's about AQ for you maybe, but for iraqi fighters that's very likely just a meaningless word, he picks up a gun or a roadside-bomb or whatever and for him
it's simple, it's about foreigners in uniforms occupying his country and he wants them out and he fights, not for Saddam, not for AQ, he doesn't care about AQ, he doesn't care about politics, he doesn't know,he has no time or interest but he has self-esteem, he doesn't like foreigners running his country.
Like I said before, this is about claims of Al-Qaeda affiliated suicide bombs. These claims didn't come from President Bush, it came from statements from some group in Iraq.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-26-2007, 01:36 AM
Sure, sure, whatever you say.
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Sure, sure, whatever you say.
Perhaps if you tried reading the article in question that fact might become more clear to you. The first sentence sums it up nicely, you don't even need to read the whole thing.
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Abdul Fattah
04-26-2007, 02:10 AM
I just wonder, why this article stresses so much on the link with al-qaida. Does this somehow prove that al-qaida is in Iraq after all? Well it proves that al-qaida is there in 2007, but it doesn't prove that they were there in 2002. I mean, the thousands of soldiers in Iraq must have been to al-quada what a lantern is to moth in the dark.
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
I just wonder, why this article stresses so much on the link with al-qaida. Does this somehow prove that al-qaida is in Iraq after all? Well it proves that al-qaida is there in 2007, but it doesn't prove that they were there in 2002. I mean, the thousands of soldiers in Iraq must have been to al-quada what a lantern is to moth in the dark.
The article is about 2007, not 2002. Anybody that has been paying attention the past few years knows that Al-Qaeda, or at least something calling itself Al-Qaeda, has been in Iraq for awhile now. Remember that guy Zarqawi, the Al-Qaeda in Iraq leader? The point of the article is that this Al-Qaeda affiliated group is claiming responsibility for some suicide bombings. It doesn't really say anything new, just a bit of news about who is claiming responsibility for suicide attacks.
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Abdul Fattah
04-26-2007, 02:22 AM
Yeah I could see it was about 2007. My point was I wonder why they stress it so much. Why does it matter who claims it? A terrorist is a terrorist. It's an idiot who kills a lot of people, does it matter under what group he fights? I mean there's more then one terrorist group right? when it's another group, they never focus on the name, but when it's al-qaida they do. My point was: why? Is there benefit in mentioning al-qaida as much as possible in the same sentence as Iraq? Will it somehow help us forget that America is there without any grounds for invasion in the first place?
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-26-2007, 03:11 AM
People supported a war because of 9/11, 9/11=AQ, ever heard of Bush mentioning WDS nowadays? But AQ in Iraq is being repeated as a mantra, obvious stuff actually... we're doing the right thing, fighting AQ in Iraq, so we were right to go in no matter what, cos AQ is there and bla bla Al-Qaeda bla bla Iraq bla bla Al-Qaeda and so on...

The phrase "believed to be linked to Al-Qaeda" is a new magical phrase like abrakadabra, all kinds of miracles happen when you say that, just say the it and
magically everyone in question is a terrorist and bombs flying in, fascinating stuff, political Copperfields
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MTAFFI
04-26-2007, 01:59 PM
The purpose of me posting this article was to make a point about what is actually happening in Iraq. Khan, you state that if you were a civilian in Iraq you would kill as many foreign invaders as possible, believe it or not, I can sympathize and understand this and I do not condemn the comment and in fact I applaude it! Now take a look at your brother Abdul Fattah, he states (basically) that Al-Qaeda in Iraq was not in Iraq prior to 2002. Now take a look at the last paragraphs in the article posted, notice that in one day Al-Qaeda and other militant groups have killed as many civilians as they have US soldiers in a month. Does this not strike a chord with you or do you choose to ignore it? AL-QAEDA AND OTHER AFFILIATED GROUPS HAVE KILLED AS MANY CIVLIANS IN 1 DAY AS THEY HAVE TROOPS IN A MONTH (AND THIS IS A DEADLY MONTH FOR TROOPS, THE DEADLIEST IN ALMOST 5 MONTHS!) There now I put it loud and clear for you. Now since this is all established and it is established that Al-Qaeda in Iraq and probably many of their affiliates are also "foreign invaders" would you also attack and kill them with the US forces. By your own logic you should. And if your logic was based on strong intelligence you might even notice that the US isnt in Iraq to cause instability for your country (if you lived there), the US is there to help the civilians, to create stability, to stop the people who are killing 83 or more of your non violent brothers, sisters, children and elderly, indiscriminately every day! So tell me which foreign invader, using this information, would you fight against? You fight with the US against those who are killing everyone they see, and help end the problem and your country will be yours, you fight against the US and win with the people that are killing everyone they see, and your country will never be yours and in fact you will end up with another Saddam in power. I am asking a honest question, which seems right to you?
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NobleMuslimUK
04-26-2007, 03:48 PM
Maybe I'd believe these things about Al Qaida if it wasnt invented by the zionists. The zionist neo-cons or right wingers whatever you call the scum in control, came up with this bogey man to scare the western world in particular the british and americans. I have been to many muslim countries no one ever talked about Alqaida in a serious manner it was always jokingly, as we know its all lies. Even in the west people are waking up to this hoax. Now the matter of alqaida in Iraq, well the zionists in control of america along with their pooch bush, blair etc can claim to call anyone alqaida and the world will believe it, that doesnt make it true now does it. Then you have the zionist pooch kept on a tight leash in Pakistan, called Musharaf. All hes interested in is money for his pocket like anyone on the zionist payroll following orders. Does it really make a difference in the end whether its alqaida or iraqi freedom fighters, when the story is always highly distorted and orchestrated.
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MTAFFI
04-26-2007, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Maybe I'd believe these things about Al Qaida if it wasnt invented by the zionists. The zionist neo-cons or right wingers whatever you call the scum in control, came up with this bogey man to scare the western world in particular the british and americans. I have been to many muslim countries no one ever talked about Alqaida in a serious manner it was always jokingly, as we know its all lies. Even in the west people are waking up to this hoax. Now the matter of alqaida in Iraq, well the zionists in control of america along with their pooch bush, blair etc can claim to call anyone alqaida and the world will believe it, that doesnt make it true now does it. Then you have the zionist pooch kept on a tight leash in Pakistan, called Musharaf. All hes interested in is money for his pocket like anyone on the zionist payroll following orders. Does it really make a difference in the end whether its alqaida or iraqi freedom fighters, when the story is always highly distorted and orchestrated.
*the post doctor is in*
Sir it seems your post seems to have a case of the 5 D's, dont worry though we see it a lot on this forum, it is a disease that can be cured, you simply have to realize what you have and try to actually find the truth. Let me help clarify this for you, the 5 D's seem to be:

DELLUSIONAL, DECEPTIVE, DISSENT, DENIAL and of couse DUMB

You may be saying now "Why would a I need a doctor for a post", well let me tell you, the post you just made is completely nonsensical and actually makes others sick +o( +o( +o( +o( +o(
Now that you realize the flaws of your post, please try to rectify yourself and come to grips with reality, the sooner you do that the better off mentally you will become, and the less people around you have a chance to become infected!
*the post doctor is out*
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Ninth_Scribe
04-26-2007, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Remember that guy Zarqawi, the Al-Qaeda in Iraq leader? The point of the article is that this Al-Qaeda affiliated group is claiming responsibility for some suicide bombings. It doesn't really say anything new, just a bit of news about who is claiming responsibility for suicide attacks.
Yes, I remember every word. He pledged allegience to Al Qaeda in the fall of 2004, one and a half years after the U.S. invasion... that's how he got the bucks he needed to arm his men.

Does it really matter? America is making a fortune off of arming countries. Israel is pissed off about us sending Saudi Arabia a very impressive shipment - so much so Bush had to promise Israel will always remain superior in terms of weapons packages and sales.

The main reason for gross profits earned by U.S. weapons sales to all of these countries is... Al Qaeda! To be honest (and blunt), attacks by other insurgent groups are rarely mentioned by name. The only other group to rival in media coverage was the Mahdi Army (another case of arms sales that America lost profit on since they got their weapons from Iran).

I have to agree with Khan-Ghalgha's comment (Sure. Sure. Whatever.). It's a news report about what one group did. Compared to all the other reports about what the U.S. did, and what other fighters did - it has absolutely no meaning or importance.

Al Qaeda joined the Iraqi resistance because the Iraqi fighters invited them.

Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-26-2007, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, I remember every word. He pledged allegience to Al Qaeda in the fall of 2004, one and a half years after the U.S. invasion... that's how he got the bucks he needed to arm his men.

Does it really matter? America is making a fortune off of arming countries. Israel is pissed off about us sending Saudi Arabia a very impressive shipment - so much so Bush had to promise Israel will always remain superior in terms of weapons packages and sales.

The main reason for gross profits earned by U.S. weapons sales to all of these countries is... Al Qaeda! To be honest (and blunt), attacks by other insurgent groups are rarely mentioned by name. The only other group to rival in media coverage was the Mahdi Army (another case of arms sales that America lost profit on since they got their weapons from Iran).

I have to agree with Khan-Ghalgha's comment (Sure. Sure. Whatever.). It's a news report about what one group did. Comapared to all the other reports about what the U.S. did, and what other fighters did - it has absolutely no meaning or importance.

Ninth Scribe
So again the point of the article is evaded... Is it of no importance to you that the ones you support kill more civilians in a day than they do troops (or as you would say the enemy) in an entire month? Also where do you get your info on Israel the US and the Saudis? I would like to see a link for that, because I notice many times you seem to come up with things that have no proof other than your word... which by the way doesnt have any importance or meaning, without something to back it at least :D
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Ninth_Scribe
04-26-2007, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
So again the point of the article is evaded... Is it of no importance to you that the ones you support kill more civilians in a day than they do troops (or as you would say the enemy) in an entire month? Also where do you get your info on Israel the US and the Saudis? I would like to see a link for that, because I notice many times you seem to come up with things that have no proof other than your word... which by the way doesnt have any importance or meaning, without something to back it at least :D
That's a lie! They have not killed more civilians than the Americans. Come to that, their attacks account for 5 percent of the action. I should give you the same rant you gave Noble Muslim... but - blah!

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...Sales%20Abroad

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...03jihadist.htm

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/a...altycount.html

Though supposedly the ‘quickest’ and ‘cleanest’ way to win their war, in reality, according to a Pentagon official, ‘there will not be a safe place in Baghdad’ (Sun-Herald, January 26 2003). The ‘strategic bombing’ of the ‘Shock and Awe’ operation, a nice way of describing causing terror, caused the deaths, as we now know, of thousands of civilians –over 7,000 between March and May 2003.

Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/editorial/weekiniraq/30/

Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-26-2007, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
That's a lie! They have not killed more civiliians than the Americans. Come to that, their attacks account for 5 percent of the action. I should give you the same rant you gave Noble Muslim... but - blah!

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...Sales%20Abroad

Ninth Scribe

How do you call that a lie? Take a look at the numbers, how many are dead in Iraq? How many were civilians? The US didnt kill all these civilians, so that only leaves a certain number of groups responsible.. You have a bad case of denial yourself it seems. This month alone (as of the day of my post) 85 troops dead, number of civilians killed by these militant groups was 83 that particular day. Say what you want but it is absolutely undeniable that these people kill more civilians than they do their enemy. One would think that the civilians are tired of the militants killing them and probably support the troops for at least trying to police their land.

PS Thanks for the link, I didnt see anything about Israel in there though (I just skimmed it, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong) EDIT: just saw the other link, thanks!
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Ninth_Scribe
04-26-2007, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
How do you call that a lie? Take a look at the numbers, how many are dead in Iraq? How many were civilians? The US didnt kill all these civilians, so that only leaves a certain number of groups responsible.. You have a bad case of denial yourself it seems. This month alone (as of the day of my post) 85 troops dead, number of civilians killed by these militant groups was 83 that particular day. Say what you want but it is absolutely undeniable that these people kill more civilians than they do their enemy. One would think that the civilians are tired of the militants killing them and probably support the troops for at least trying to police their land.

PS Thanks for the link, I didnt see anything about Israel in there though (I just skimmed it, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong) EDIT: just saw the other link, thanks!
It's the second link. I added a bunch, not that any of this matters. Bottom line is, the Iraqis don't like the occupation an they'll fight it... even if that means: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You just run those numb3rs... I know people can do this. It's just math. I gave you every link you need, but take your time and read the words like someone who is interested in what they have to say. That's why all this is happening, by the way. Because Iraqis are talking.. but no one seems to be listening.

Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-26-2007, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
It's the second link. I added a bunch, not that any of this matters. Bottom line is, the Iraqis don't like the occupation an they'll fight it... even if that means: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

You just run those numb3rs... I know people can do this. It's just math. I gave you every link you need, but take your time and read the words like someone who is interested in what they have to say. That's why all this is happening, by the way. Because Iraqis are talking.. but no one seems to be listening.

Ninth Scribe
So are you saying that the US has killed more civilians in Iraq than these other groups or not? I can answer it for you but I would like it better if you posted it yourself.. When the US does leave Iraq, and the time is coming, these people will fight and kill many many many more civilians and Iraq will be under the control of another tyrant. Would you rather the US leave and allow this or stay and at least try to stop it?
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 07:02 PM
Many Sunni "resistance" groups have already aided the U.S. a number of times with the locations of these foreign Al-Qaeda types, so it would seem the "invitation" Ninth-Scribe eluded to is wearing thin. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the Sunnis who gave up the location of Zarqawi to the U.S. Granted, most of this "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of their hearts or their aversion to killing women and children in the street, but as a method to gain power in their own region of Iraq.
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Islamic_warrior
04-26-2007, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Iraqis fight as they fight, does it disgust anyone or does not - doesn't really matter for people on the ground.

Countries don't get invaded everyday, when it happens - people react, iraqis reacted the way they do, I expected the resistance. Let's not generalize, there are iraqis who target invaders and avoid civil casualties, if I were iraqi and had the guts and the opportunity I would've made it my duty to kill as many invaders as I can avoiding civil casualties(why would i want to kill my brother anyway?).

Do you expect that anyone on this forum will say that they condone muslims killing muslims? Or do you expect that someone would say that iraqis fighting invaders are wrong and should stop?
I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamic_warrior
I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...
Yeah, that makes sense...:rollseyes
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MTAFFI
04-26-2007, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamic_warrior
I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...
You have to be joking...LOL This whole site has lost reputation because of that comment..LMAO....LOL :D
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Cognescenti
04-26-2007, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamic_warrior
I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...
This is a gag, right? It has to be. Nobody could possibly believe this.....could they? :?

Please tell us you are really a teenager from Des Moines doing this as a prank...right?
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Ninth_Scribe
04-27-2007, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It wouldn't surprise me if it was the Sunnis who gave up the location of Zarqawi to the U.S. Granted, most of this "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of their hearts or their aversion to killing women and children in the street, but as a method to gain power in their own region of Iraq.
Most of the "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of America's heart either. You should just read all those sales sheets. Do the math. Man... am I in the wrong business. But the door swings both ways. Sorry. I can't believe you just advocated torture, but I suppose the intel justified the means? Whatever. It changed nadda. The war is on, and it will continue to be so since the only thing both sides agree on is the sick reality that war is the only way to resolve this problem. No, I can't blame Iraqis for fighting an invasion and yes, I fully condone their use of foreign armies... as does the U.S. (Canada, U.K., etc.).

Judging from all I've learned here, this discussion is a waste of time.

Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-27-2007, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Most of the "aid" isn't coming from the kindness of America's heart either. You should just read all those sales sheets. Do the math. Man... am I in the wrong business. But the door swings both ways. Sorry. I can't believe you just advocated torture, but I suppose the intel justified the means? Whatever. It changed nadda. The war is on, and it will continue to be so since the only thing both sides agree on is the sick reality that war is the only way to resolve this problem. No, I can't blame Iraqis for fighting an invasion and yes, I fully condone their use of foreign armies... as does the U.S. (Canada, U.K., etc.).

Judging from all I've learned here, this discussion is a waste of time.

Ninth Scribe
Is it? It seems you want to derail the discussion because you dont like the sad reality of it. You have now said you condone the us of foreign armies, here is my next question to you, who in Iraq asked for them? Surely not the people they are killing by almost the hundreds everyday. As I said in my first post and my last post to you, who is right and who is wrong? The "freedom fighters" that you love so much kill as many innocents a day as they kill their "enemy" every month. The US forces are rarely seen killing innocents everyday, who is the real enemy to Iraq? Who is the real reason that the country is in the state that it is in? I am asking for straight answers, dont beat around the BUSH and tell me a bunch of nonsense, just answer those questions straight up.
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NobleMuslimUK
04-27-2007, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Is it? It seems you want to derail the discussion because you dont like the sad reality of it. You have now said you condone the us of foreign armies, here is my next question to you, who in Iraq asked for them? Surely not the people they are killing by almost the hundreds everyday. As I said in my first post and my last post to you, who is right and who is wrong? The "freedom fighters" that you love so much kill as many innocents a day as they kill their "enemy" every month. The US forces are rarely seen killing innocents everyday, who is the real enemy to Iraq? Who is the real reason that the country is in the state that it is in? I am asking for straight answers, dont beat around the BUSH and tell me a bunch of nonsense, just answer those questions straight up.
Your answers are simple its the people in charge of America that are responsible, they are the enemy to you and the whole world, their only friend is money.
Why was Iraq invaded well the list is endless, but you can be certain the things not to be included in that list are WMD, or liberating Iraqis.
The regime in US has the blood of many on their hands, but it will not be long before the nausea of living in a artificially controlled environment hits home in the western world. This is leading to just as worse in the western world as it is in the middle east.

May Allah SWT give patience and victory to all the muslims over their opressors. Ameen
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MTAFFI
04-27-2007, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Your answers are simple its the people in charge of America that are responsible, they are the enemy to you and the whole world, their only friend is money.
Why was Iraq invaded well the list is endless, but you can be certain the things not to be included in that list are WMD, or liberating Iraqis.
The regime in US has the blood of many on their hands, but it will not be long before the nausea of living in a artificially controlled environment hits home in the western world. This is leading to just as worse in the western world as it is in the middle east.

May Allah SWT give patience and victory to all the muslims over their opressors. Ameen
so to you the enemies are the US forces in Iraq that are trying to stabilize and not the ones who are killing all of the civilians and creating anarchy? Why would Allah grant victory to these people, they are not protecting or serving, they are killing and punishing the Iraqis, not the US, how can you not see this? By the way you only answered 1 question
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Muezzin
04-28-2007, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
Why does it matter who claims it? That's a remarkable question.

The call to jihad we see is not a function of these killers being “made" by U.S. foreign policy, their hatres of Jews or any others’ foreign policy. They are in fact, mobilized by it when it doesn’t yield to their arrogant claims of entitlement.

The names they operate under are subordinate to the cause of their ideology: Islamic Jihad, Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah (Hamas), Abu Sayyaf, Tanzim Qa'idat Al-Jihad in Bilad al-Rafidayn (al-Qaeda in Iraq), Hizbullah, Al-Ikhwan Al-Moslemoon (the Muslim Brotherhood), and countless others.

Jihad is a fundamental component of orthodox Islamic doctrine, and it always has been.

What more evidence do you need that this is the way of the world before we went into Iraq? If 9/11 doesn't convince people like you that life and liberty are not the primary concern of these murderous Islamic ideologues, then nothing will. Maybe a 737 plowing into another mega building on a pastoral September day will make you realize how deeply and just-as-likely a victim you are as anyone else.
Are you saying such people twist Islamic doctrine or are you saying Islamic doctrine itself is to blame?
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Idris
04-28-2007, 07:14 PM
so to you the enemies are the US forces in Iraq that are trying to stabilize and not the ones who are killing all of the civilians and creating anarchy? Why would Allah grant victory to these people, they are not protecting or serving, they are killing and punishing the Iraqis, not the US, how can you not see this? By the way you only answered 1 question


We have to use some brain cell’s here. What happens if you take down a government?
Something called a power vacuum, where people try and get as much power as they can.
They US destroyed a government that had a police force, army and the economy of Iraq.
They made a nice green zone for the US and ally’s …..the other Iraqis well they have to fight for themselves. So then you take out the structure of a country you get anarchy.

You remember what happened in Hurricane Katrina? :?
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Ninth_Scribe
04-28-2007, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
So are you saying that the US has killed more civilians in Iraq than these other groups or not? I can answer it for you but I would like it better if you posted it yourself.. When the US does leave Iraq, and the time is coming, these people will fight and kill many many many more civilians and Iraq will be under the control of another tyrant. Would you rather the US leave and allow this or stay and at least try to stop it?
The Numb3rs themselves aren't at issue here. One day the U.S. will lead the body count and a month later the Mujahideen will take the lead. It can change, so it's pointless to follow the body count. It's about how the agression is justified.

Don't be too worried about what will happen after the U.S. leaves. This isn't the first time someone opened the gates to Baghdad... and there are ways to reconcile the family. But the government that has been appointed is obviously not acceptable, if for any other reason, to accept it, is an admission of Iraq's defeat by America. These are proud and honorable men and they will not be so easily disgraced. America is not the one to stop what it was the one to start. It only adds insult to injury.

And, I don't agree with Al Qaeda in all ways. In fact, I've completed a very detailed study of Kaab al-Ahbar that I intend to use to demonstrate how much I disapprove of these conversions by sword (their plan is to convert the world in 100 years time). If you want, I'll PM you that page. It is a check-mate.

Words are my best weapon ;)

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
04-28-2007, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
You remember what happened in Hurricane Katrina? :?
Yes. Americans killing Americans. The condition turned men against what they perceived to be their weaker links.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
04-28-2007, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Is it? It seems you want to derail the discussion because you dont like the sad reality of it. You have now said you condone the us of foreign armies, here is my next question to you, who in Iraq asked for them? Surely not the people they are killing by almost the hundreds everyday. As I said in my first post and my last post to you, who is right and who is wrong? The "freedom fighters" that you love so much kill as many innocents a day as they kill their "enemy" every month. The US forces are rarely seen killing innocents everyday, who is the real enemy to Iraq? Who is the real reason that the country is in the state that it is in? I am asking for straight answers, dont beat around the BUSH and tell me a bunch of nonsense, just answer those questions straight up.
I'm not trying to derail your discussion. I'm just saying there is very little I can add that hasn't been covered already. You have yet to produce a presentation of facts that will change my view and I obviously cannot produce a presentation that you would find acceptable. So I judge the matter pointless. When I judge a matter... it is a personal judgment that only concerns my path. Not yours. The judgment is that I need to stop this and go back to the drawing board (for the thousenth time) and produce another presentation!

I can answer the question you asked: Who invited the foreign fighters? The Iraqis did. Zarqawi answered the call from Ansar al Sunnah. Now there is collective, the Islamic State of Iraq - of which one military wing is Zarqawi's Al Qaeda in Iraq. In other words, Al Qaeda in Iraq does not run the state. They merely defend it.

The Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
04-28-2007, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I'm not trying to derail your discussion. I'm just saying there is very little I can add that hasn't been covered already. You have yet to produce a presentation of facts that will change my view and I obviously cannot produce a presentation that you would find acceptable. So I judge the matter pointless. When I judge a matter... it is a personal judgment that only concerns my path. Not yours. The judgment is that I need to stop this and go back to the drawing board (for the thousenth time) and produce another presentation!

I can answer the question you asked: Who invited the foreign fighters? The Iraqis did. Zarqawi answered the call from Ansar al Sunnah. Now there is collective, the Islamic State of Iraq - of which one military wing is Zarqawi's Al Qaeda in Iraq. In other words, Al Qaeda in Iraq does not run the state. They merely defend it.

The Ninth Scribe
Then you have to deal with the fact that there is no "Islamic State of Iraq", only the suggestion of such a thing. Zarqawi is dead. The Sunni insurgency has become almost exclusively devoted to killing Shia, and vice versa.
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Ninth_Scribe
04-29-2007, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
Do you not understand that the most prolific killers of Moslems are other Moslems? The tribal warfare and tit for tat killings are further exasperated by the centuries old feud that divides the sunnni and shia.
They didn't fight each other until AFTER the U.S. invaded and Divisions are like branches on the same tree... its all a question of proper names and places. Ye of little faith. The Bush Administrations makes excuses for itself, but the result will not change.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
Just who is it that Al Qaeda is defending Iraq from; other Iraqi’s? <-- That’s a rhetorical question!
Certain of the Iraqis see it that way and they don't care for the Bush administration's excuses and justifications. Since the Bush administration has decreed that a contest of war will decide the new government... so be it.

Thus far, all I've heard is Americans accuse others of being guilty of the same crimes it has commited. From wedding parties to children to civilians to sectarian preferences to outside interference. I can still hear the whining: "Well, Al Qaeda used chlorine bombs and made people sick. - as if this is any different from America's use of White Phosphorous in Falluja? Spare me the complaints. It takes two (2) to make a war and for every American who thinks like you, there is a Arab who doesn't.

You might want to run those numbers a bit more carefully. Both sides can insure this contest will last for generations.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
04-29-2007, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Then you have to deal with the fact that there is no "Islamic State of Iraq", only the suggestion of such a thing. Zarqawi is dead. The Sunni insurgency has become almost exclusively devoted to killing Shia, and vice versa.
Hmm... so the 99 U.S. soldiers who died this month are the result of a... suggestion? Wow!
Can't wait to see what happens when they become a... statement.

The Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-29-2007, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
The Numb3rs themselves aren't at issue here. One day the U.S. will lead the body count and a month later the Mujahideen will take the lead. It can change, so it's pointless to follow the body count. It's about how the agression is justified.
I think most of your comments have been answered by others but I see that this one has been left for me. I find this to be a full blown lie, misrepresentation or form of ignorance. The US civilian body count in Iraq since the fall of Saddam has never been higher than that of your holy warriors. NEVER. The body count of civilians killed by the "holy warriors", which is apparently justified in your eyes, is much higher than that of the US civilian body count. There is absolutely no arguing about that, basically your whole paragraph is nonsense.

*Do you ever think that the reason you are going back to the drawing board for the 1000th time is because you are wrong. Try a different angle, the groups in Iraq are not from Iraq, they may have been asked to come by a few Iraqis extremist but are not wanted by the general population. In fact, they are wanted much much less in iraq than the US troops.
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Ninth_Scribe
04-29-2007, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
Sunni – shia hatreds are ancient hatreds that date back centuries.
Yes, yes... the Shia opened the gates of Baghdad and the Sunnis defended Kaab al Ahbar. I am well aware of the thousand issues that have yet to be resolved between the "in-laws" of Islam. In Babylon there was a Council to deal with this, and if I have my way with this, that Council will be re-instated. The only thing preventing this from taking place in Iraq today, is Bush!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
The Iraqi’s voted for a government. Their choice was a government not favored by the Bush Administration.
Oh really? You mean to tell me all of Iraq was ready for an election campaign in the space of time that was given to them? I'd like to see America pull that time frame off... we'd save a fortune in election campaign expenses! Come to that, if America were a true democracy, then our president would merely represent whatever race out-bred us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but white men are definately in the minority and would never have enough votes to continue their presidential successions, over and over again. So, time will tell on that issue... but this still causes problems. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, btw. Just trying to relay a point of view. I've used Bush as a perfect example of the blessings of democracy. For instance, had it not been for democracy we'd be stuck with that MF for the duration of his life. Because of democracy, his days are numb3red. Before you know it, he won't be in a position to "veto" anything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
The use of white phosphorous was limited and was expressly intended to route out your holy warrior™ heroes. The fact that they intentionally hide among the civilian population, using women and children as human shields is unfortunate but something we regularly see.
Limited? Are you kidding me? The Hiroshima bomb was limited too.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
These are weapons used with the specific intent to cause as much death, destruction and misery as possible. The fact is, it’s only for lack of “better” weapons that prevents your holy warriors from slaughtering on a grander scale.
Infamous quotes: "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official who has been briefed on the plan (Shock and Awe).

"The sheer size of this (Shock and Awe) has never been seen before, never been contemplated before," the official said.

By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted," Ullman tells Martin.

Excuse me, but I repeat: The Bush Administration is accusing the Iraqi fighters (and their allies) of behaving... like Bush!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
The Democrats are already posturing to put an end to America’s involvement in this. I’ll suggest a small wager. When the U.S. does pull out of Iraq and the carnage begins in earnest, I’m betting you and others will be whining about how the U.S. abandoned Iraq and thus caused the continuing sunni – shia slaughter.
I'll take that bet. While the democrats posture for their position, I'm busy with my own... a reconciliation plan that will grant Amnesty and resurrect that council.

The Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-29-2007, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, yes... the Shia opened the gates of Baghdad and the Sunnis defended Kaab al Ahbar. I am well aware of the thousand issues that have yet to be resolved between the "in-laws" of Islam. In Babylon there was a Council to deal with this, and if I have my way with this, that Council will be re-instated. The only thing preventing this from taking place in Iraq today, is Bush!
Do tell how is Bush stopping you from having your way of things with this "council"? LOL I love how you continue to project yourself as some sort of Iraqi messenger.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Oh really? You mean to tell me all of Iraq was ready for an election campaign in the space of time that was given to them? I'd like to see America pull that time frame off... we'd save a fortune in election campaign expenses!
The idea was to stop the power vacuum, didnt work, but as mentioned above, apparently alot of people understood who they were voting for enough to where 3/4 of the Iraqi adults came to vote. Also please note that people were bombed at the polls, but they kept voting anyways.

No no, you are right these people dont want democracy they just risked their lives to get someone in power. OH but wait it wasnt Al-Qaeda in Iraq or its affiliates so those who vote and those appointed must die. That is ok with you though right?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Come to that, if America were a true democracy, then our president would merely represent whatever race out-bred us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but white men are definately in the minority and would never have enough votes to continue their presidential successions, over and over again.
I will be happy to correct you, the majority are the white males in american, actually we are an overwhelming majority. So yes you are wrong and yes that is probably why white males dominate the presidency in America. However there is a half white and half black running for democrat right now, remember Obama. America is no doubt a true democracy, why else do you think people all over the world want to live here?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I've used Bush as a perfect example of the blessings of democracy. For instance, had it not been for democracy we'd be stuck with that MF for the duration of his life. Because of democracy, his days are numb3red. Before you know it, he won't be in a position to "veto" anything.
Just think if the same could have been said of Saddam :? I have to say though I am ready for a change in leadership, I dont know if it will have the effect you are looking for though.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Limited? Are you kidding me? The Hiroshima bomb was limited too.
yes it was limited, hiroshima was unprecendented and ended a war that would have claimed many more lives both japanese and american. it may seem to have been ruthless but it actually may have saved lives in the long run.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Infamous quotes: "There will not be a safe place in Baghdad," said one Pentagon official who has been briefed on the plan (Shock and Awe).

"The sheer size of this (Shock and Awe) has never been seen before, never been contemplated before," the official said.

By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2,3,4,5 days they are physically, emotionally and psychologically exhausted," Ullman tells Martin.

Excuse me, but I repeat: The Bush Administration is accusing the Iraqi fighters (and their allies) of behaving... like Bush!
These quotes all come from the beginning of the war, a time when it was to drive SH and his people out, physically emotionally and psychologically was not used in the context of every Iraqi, it was used for saddam and his regime.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I'll take that bet. While the democrats posture for their position, I'm busy with my own... a reconciliation plan that will grant Amnesty and resurrect that council.

The Ninth Scribe
Please show us one proposal or reconciliation plan that has been approved or instated by anyone that has come from you.
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barney
04-29-2007, 09:58 PM
Hmm. If I wanted to read a list of the work of the "Knights" of Allah, I'd go to Jihadunspun.
Attacking US troops directly instead of schools and shoppers? Ahh well a change is as good as a rest.
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MTAFFI
04-30-2007, 01:11 PM
^^^Ruggedtough,

Great post!
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Ninth_Scribe
04-30-2007, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ruggedtouch
Frisk them all at the door for bomb vests before letting them in.
They won't need weapons. People use weapons when they feel threatened. People lie when they feel threatened. Suggest you find an Iraqi (just one) and pretend to be three separate people. The first, an American Republican. The second, a American Democrat and the third, a Muslim "extremist" (either Sunni or Shiite). The results of such a test might surprize you. In truth, the people are worn down, which is exactly what the DoD wanted from the start... and they mistrust everyone. Their answer (if you can fairly call it that), will be exactly what they expect you want to hear. To them, it is not questioning, they view it in the same context as interrogation. Experience has taught them that to say otherwise could cause them harm (they'll end up on someone's hit list). How can you have an election when the people can't even speak freely?

The Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
04-30-2007, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
They won't need weapons. People use weapons when they feel threatened. People lie when they feel threatened. Suggest you find an Iraqi (just one) and pretend to be three separate people. The first, an American Republican. The second, a American Democrat and the third, a Muslim "extremist" (either Sunni or Shiite). The results of such a test might surprize you. In truth, the people are worn down, which is exactly what the DoD wanted from the start... and they mistrust everyone. Their answer (if you can fairly call it that), will be exactly what they expect you want to hear. To them, it is not questioning, they view it in the same context as interrogation. Experience has taught them that to say otherwise could cause them harm (they'll end up on someone's hit list). How can you have an election when the people can't even speak freely?

The Ninth Scribe

So to his whole post which was probably one of the more comprehensive posts I have ever read on this site, this is all you have to say. A weak and vague paragraph about how a meeting might suprise someone and how the Iraqis only went to vote because that is what they thought would keep them off a hit list:enough!: You are truly remarkable how you dance around factual information and only listen or use what you find for your own side. Try using an open mind, otherwise you will always find yourself as the loser of any debate, arguement or conversation as you are shown to be here. +o(
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Ninth_Scribe
05-07-2007, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
So to his whole post which was probably one of the more comprehensive posts I have ever read on this site, this is all you have to say. A weak and vague paragraph about how a meeting might suprise someone and how the Iraqis only went to vote because that is what they thought would keep them off a hit list:enough!: You are truly remarkable how you dance around factual information and only listen or use what you find for your own side. Try using an open mind, otherwise you will always find yourself as the loser of any debate, arguement or conversation as you are shown to be here.
You are so predictable, throwing your judgments around as if you were Lord Fonteroy... but others have judgments too and I have listened to all parties concerned and appreciate their various complaints. From what I can tell, you'll not be satisfied until Islam (the whole of it) falls to it's knees and agrees with you. Just telling you the truth here, because you deserve that much - it will never happen. This war will be without an ending and all countries will suffer it's weight for generations to come, because regardless of what the Bush Administration has told it's people, these are not a small "handful of thugs" spattered around the four corners of the world and America is no more closer to Mission Accomplished than it was four years ago. You are witnessing an up-rising that is gathering momentum and strength.... especially in Iraq (both Sunni and Shia sects)! So much for your freedom theories. They are but two fingers away from raising the "Black Hand" but you know what's best, right? It's so easy for you.

This isn't about winning and losing. It isn't a game. The days of scoring brownie points ended... and brownie points will not solve this problem anyway.
I believe the Numb3rs speak for themselves. So sound off if it makes you feel better. Rant, Rave and come up with every name you can think of - but be careful... it all comes back to you, you know?

You get what you give.

The Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
05-07-2007, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
You are so predictable, throwing your judgments around as if you were Lord Fonteroy... but others have judgments too and I have listened to all parties concerned and appreciate their various complaints. From what I can tell, you'll not be satisfied until Islam (the whole of it) falls to it's knees and agrees with you. Just telling you the truth here, because you deserve that much - it will never happen. This war will be without an ending and all countries will suffer it's weight for generations to come, because regardless of what the Bush Administration has told it's people, these are not a small "handful of thugs" spattered around the four corners of the world and America is no more closer to Mission Accomplished than it was four years ago. You are witnessing an up-rising that is gathering momentum and strength.... especially in Iraq (both Sunni and Shia sects)! So much for your freedom theories. They are but two fingers away from raising the "Black Hand" but you know what's best, right? It's so easy for you.

This isn't about winning and losing. It isn't a game. The days of scoring brownie points ended... and brownie points will not solve this problem anyway.
I believe the Numb3rs speak for themselves. So sound off if it makes you feel better. Rant, Rave and come up with every name you can think of - but be careful... it all comes back to you, you know?

You get what you give.

The Ninth Scribe
First off, who did I judge? When did I ever make a judgement? I too listen to various parties and I respect their opinions or beliefs. Islam doesnt need to "fall to its knees" for me, as I dont believe that myself or my country is at war with Islam. We are at war with those who use Islam as an excuse, as should all practicing Muslims, and everyone else for that matter. You are right also, this war will be without ending, but what you dont understand is it isnt going to somehow profoundly effect me either. The fact that these people kill each other everyday by the hundreds has absolutely no effect on my life, other than I hate to see all those innocent people die. Also let me try to explain this to you again, we already won our "war" in Iraq. It was won when saddam was hanging like a rat from his rope, so you are wrong in that we are no closer than 4 years ago, because we won. Now as far as creating stability in Iraq, I would agree, there is nothing to accomplish there, I say pull out let them kill each other then when the terrorist group arises and takes the government we will have good reason to blow the whole country to pieces. I wonder how that black hand will stop that? Saddam sure couldnt when he was hiding in his hole. Also who is rising up? Is it Muslims everywhere? I am sure that many Muslims on this site can back me up and agree that this is not going on, unless you are talking about rising up against the extremists.

You are right though, this isnt a game, thousands of Iraqis die every month, it surely isnt a game to them. When the US leaves who will be there to protect them?

With all that said why dont you now go back and read ruggedtouch's post and actually respond to it? If it is because he is right, then lets see you tell him so, rather than respond to the only thing you can dig out of all that, that can help with your lousy point.
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Ninth_Scribe
05-09-2007, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
We are at war with those who use Islam as an excuse, as should all practicing Muslims, and everyone else for that matter.
The ones you accuse of using Islam as an excuse are the ones accusing America likewise... of using Democracy as an excuse. I'm not particularly interested in moderate Islam because they could care less which way the feather flies. I make it a point to study "radical" Islam because they are the ones who brought the complaints. Contrary to the Bush administration's assertion that these are small pockets of fighters, I've found their numb3rs to be somewhat awe inspiring. This is no small population! If we try to use warfare to deal with this, it will easily carry on for the next 100 years!

I believe there are other ways to deal with this. That's all.

The Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
05-09-2007, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
The ones you accuse of using Islam as an excuse are the ones accusing America likewise... of using Democracy as an excuse.
What did the US do to Muslims DIRECTLY to deserve 9/11? How did the US start this war? If you cannot answer those questions, then the US is not using democracy as an excuse. In fact the US needs no excuses, we were attacked and we have responded to those who pose a threat and who potentially were directly or indirectly involved in the attack, PERIOD. Radical Islam started this war, and eventually one way or another they will be destroyed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I'm not particularly interested in moderate Islam because they could care less which way the feather flies. I make it a point to study "radical" Islam because they are the ones who brought the complaints.
So you dont study "moderate" Islam, please tell me what that is exactly so I can get my ducks in a row before I respond to that. If it is what I think, then these people do care, they wish for peace with the west and dont condone that which goes against the holy Quran. Radical Islam is a joke and will be defeated.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Contrary to the Bush administration's assertion that these are small pockets of fighters, I've found their numb3rs to be somewhat awe inspiring. This is no small population! If we try to use warfare to deal with this, it will easily carry on for the next 100 years!
So then you are saying that this is not the minority of Muslims? If this is the case then it is a us against them thing.... I dont think you would want this, especially if you are Muslim. A war with Muslims in the Middle east and here in the US would not be simple but it would definitely be feasible. The middle east could be obliterated within 6 months, and I mean everyone could die, and those in the US could be rounded up and also killed. It sounds savage, but from what you are saying all of the (or the majority of)Muslims hate the west and wont stop fighting us and will continue to violate the security of our nation, now I hate to say this but at some point there will be a line drawn, and enough will be enough. This will not continue for 100 years, there will be much bigger bombs dropped before that happens.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I believe there are other ways to deal with this. That's all.

The Ninth Scribe
Like what?
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Ninth_Scribe
05-10-2007, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What did the US do to Muslims DIRECTLY to deserve 9/11? How did the US start this war? If you cannot answer those questions, then the US is not using democracy as an excuse.
Don't have a lot of time to get into this, but from what I understand, and I didn't take them at their word (I've been double checking the records), the complaint is that we sold a ton of weapons to Israel that were used to harm innocent Muslims, and that's a pretty serious complaint. To get a jist of how serious it is, America is furious that Iran is selling weapons that are being used to kill Americans in Iraq. Both sides consider their complaints extremely serious, although I'm not sure both sides realize the complaints are identical. It's a mess... but that's what I have on this subject (in a nut-shell). Hope that helps.

The Ninth Scribe
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MTAFFI
05-10-2007, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Don't have a lot of time to get into this, but from what I understand, and I didn't take them at their word (I've been double checking the records), the complaint is that we sold a ton of weapons to Israel that were used to harm innocent Muslims, and that's a pretty serious complaint. To get a jist of how serious it is, America is furious that Iran is selling weapons that are being used to kill Americans in Iraq. Both sides consider their complaints extremely serious, although I'm not sure both sides realize the complaints are identical. It's a mess... but that's what I have on this subject (in a nut-shell). Hope that helps.

The Ninth Scribe
But that is indirect, the US sells weapons to Israel all the time, just like the soviets sell to Iran and so on and so on. So based on this information there was no right in the attack on the trade center. This attack is was sparked the war, it was not the US started this but extreme Muslims, now Muslims land is attacked for it, sounds reasonable to me
Reply

barney
05-10-2007, 09:47 PM
South Africa sells arms to Yeman...Yeman sells them on to the former Yugoslavia. The Yuoslavs use them to oppress the muslims (and to committ genocide before the USA and UK stepped in).

Time to strap on the vests and head to Johannasberg?
Reply

islamirama
05-10-2007, 09:48 PM
"We used to be allies with Osama Bin Laden & Saddam Hussain" - Republican Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJJ1GHteLM
Reply

Keltoi
05-10-2007, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
"We used to be allies with Osama Bin Laden & Saddam Hussain" - Republican Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJJ1GHteLM
Your point being what? You're voting for Ron Paul?
Reply

barney
05-10-2007, 10:29 PM
America was a useful tool in those days for Bin Liner and Saddam, as a bulwark against the Great Satan. (i'm talking about the USSR)
Reply

Keltoi
05-10-2007, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
America was a useful tool in those days for Bin Liner and Saddam, as a bulwark against the Great Satan. (i'm talking about the USSR)
I doubt the U.S. even cared who or what Bin Laden was at the time of the Soviet/Afghan War. Anybody willing to cause trouble for the Soviets was considered a friend during the Cold War. Any accusation that the U.S. had some personal and involved relationship with Bin Laden is patently false. The U.S. supplied anti-Soviet fighters with weapons and money for years, as the Soviet Union did for our enemies.
Reply

barney
05-10-2007, 10:48 PM
Aye. Personally, I would have left em with Jezzails and Lee-Enfields.
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Your point being what? You're voting for Ron Paul?
Yesterday's friends, today's enemies.

Bin Laden and saddam don't go together at all. Saddam loved his secular rule and bin laden wanted kuffars out of Muslim lands, two totally different ideologies. Only the naive and ignorant believe US when it tries to link bin laden to saddam so pathetically.
Reply

Keltoi
05-11-2007, 05:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Yesterday's friends, today's enemies.

Bin Laden and saddam don't go together at all. Saddam loved his secular rule and bin laden wanted kuffars out of Muslim lands, two totally different ideologies. Only the naive and ignorant believe US when it tries to link bin laden to saddam so pathetically.
There is no link between Saddam and Bin Laden that we know of, that has been repeated by the U.S. government numerous times since that claim was first put forward during the buildup for the war.
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 01:18 PM
The Bush administration's claim that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida - one of the administration's central arguments for a pre-emptive war - appears to have been based on even less solid intelligence than the administration's claims that Iraq had hidden stocks of chemical and biological weapons.

Nearly a year after U.S. and British troops invaded Iraq, no evidence has turned up to verify allegations of Saddam's links with al-Qaida, and several key parts of the administration's case have either proved false or seem increasingly doubtful.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0303-01.htm


also,

The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun16.html
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
There is no link between Saddam and Bin Laden that we know of, that has been repeated by the U.S. government numerous times since that claim was first put forward during the buildup for the war.
You were saying?
Reply

Keltoi
05-11-2007, 01:29 PM
I remember watching a Defense Department briefing sometime in 2003 where this question was raised. Donald Rumsfeld answered the question by pointing out that Al-Qaeda operatives met with Iraqi officials somewhere in Europe, can't remember the country, but I think it was in Prague. Anyway, the point being that he also stated there was no concrete connection between the Hussein regime and Bin Laden. That was four years ago. Yes, Dick Cheney liked to raise the issue. I'm not sure what he was basing this on besides the meeting in Europe, but he is a stubborn man.
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 01:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I remember watching a Defense Department briefing sometime in 2003 where this question was raised. Donald Rumsfeld answered the question by pointing out that Al-Qaeda operatives met with Iraqi officials somewhere in Europe, can't remember the country, but I think it was in Prague. Anyway, the point being that he also stated there was no concrete connection between the Hussein regime and Bin Laden. That was four years ago. Yes, Dick Cheney liked to raise the issue. I'm not sure what he was basing this on besides the meeting in Europe, but he is a stubborn man.
nonetheless, "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, WAS one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-11-2007, 01:45 PM
What does it really matter if Iraq or Al-Qaida had any affiliation? They both wanted to cause the US harm. That is why they were attacked, and that is why many of their leaders have died since... whether or not the US considered OBL an ally or helped Saddam in Iran or whatever historical affiliation you may be able to attach to current events it bears no real weight since from that time Al-Qaida attacked the US and Saddam threatened the use of WMD and biological warfare, both of which are more than enough reason to kill them all to protect our citizens. Put that in your quote and smoke it
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What does it really matter if Iraq or Al-Qaida had any affiliation? They both wanted to cause the US harm. That is why they were attacked, and that is why many of their leaders have died since... whether or not the US considered OBL an ally or helped Saddam in Iran or whatever historical affiliation you may be able to attach to current events it bears no real weight since from that time Al-Qaida attacked the US and Saddam threatened the use of WMD and biological warfare, both of which are more than enough reason to kill them all to protect our citizens. Put that in your quote and smoke it
qaida "supposedly" attacked, with well over 50% of americans now doubtful of that "fact" and want gov't investigation. (don't ask me, look it up yourself).

And do tell us, how and when did saddam attack "us"?

Saddam "threatened" to use WMD, which as we found out was as a big lie as was the evidence of him having some in the first place.

You are paranoid who want to kill everyone that you think wants to attack you. While we Muslims have a reason to attack you, you don't make threats but already are attacking us in the Muslim world. Oh and the majority of the world wants to attack you cuz they hate US, are you going to the bomb the whole world?
Reply

MTAFFI
05-11-2007, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
qaida "supposedly" attacked, with well over 50% of americans now doubtful of that "fact" and want gov't investigation. (don't ask me, look it up yourself).
This is a lie and is based on nothing, please give a link that shows the 50% of Americans, I know I was never polled in regards to this. Al-Qaida has claimed the bombings on mulitple levels at many different times. Everyone except people like you know that

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
And do tell us, how and when did saddam attack "us"?

Saddam "threatened" to use WMD, which as we found out was as a big lie as was the evidence of him having some in the first place.
I didnt say Saddam attacked us, I said he threatened to, which was his mistake wasnt it? Now look at him..lol.. Those who share his goal will share his fate. When the president of the US says we are going to nuke the middle east you let me know and I will guarantee you that there would be a preemtive strike on the US
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
You are paranoid who want to kill everyone that you think wants to attack you. While we Muslims have a reason to attack you, you don't make threats but already are attacking us in the Muslim world. Oh and the majority of the world wants to attack you cuz they hate US, are you going to the bomb the whole world?
I would like to kill everyone who would like to attack my country, they threaten my security I see no reason for them to be around. You "Muslims" or those who claim to be, attacked the US first, what you see in the middle east today is a response to that. And you are right, we dont make threats, we act when necessary, please show me how the US started these wars. As for you comment on the majority of the world wants to attack the US, I think you must be confused, the majority of the world helped the US attack, so get your facts right instead of spewing garbage all the time. I would be willing to bet more people despise Muslims in the world today than US citizens. Why do you think your rights are being taken away everywhere, oh yeah because of the actions of many of your brothers and sisters, no one wants you in their land anymore.
Reply

Zulkiflim
05-11-2007, 02:18 PM
Salaam,

Al qaeda is doing the right thing by killing the US military men,i sincerely hope more and more will unite to fight the foreign invaders.

But the problem lies not in Al Qaeda but in US policies.

They do not want the SHiites to gain power,but nor do they want the Sunni to retrun to power.

****tes are the majority while the Sunni were the one "evil" as propaganda by the west.

So in all this,the Iraqis should unite,sunni and ****te and defend their land from all invaders before settling civil dispute.
Reply

Zulkiflim
05-11-2007, 02:23 PM
Salaam,

Al qaeda is doing the right thing by killing the US military men,i sincerely hope more and more will unite to fight the foreign invaders.

But the problem lies not in Al Qaeda but in US policies.

They do not want the SHiites to gain power,but nor do they want the Sunni to retrun to power.

****tes are the majority while the Sunni were the one "evil" as propaganda by the west.

So in all this,the Iraqis should unite,sunni and ****te and defend their land from all invaders before settling civil dispute.
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 02:42 PM
double post....
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
This is a lie and is based on nothing, please give a link that shows the 50% of Americans, I know I was never polled in regards to this. Al-Qaida has claimed the bombings on mulitple levels at many different times. Everyone except people like you know that
I grow tired of providing proofs which later are either dismissed or the inquire goes mute and picks another point to attack and dwell on. Except the facts and get a grip on reality already! Oh and please educate yourself about all this before you come on the forums to talk!

CNN.com - Poll: More Americans blame Bush for 9/11 - Sep 11, 2006

Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy | ScrippsNews

Was 9/11 an 'inside job'?



Poll Finds Almost 90% of US Troops Think Iraq War is Retaliation for 9/11


"A LeMoyne College/Zogby International poll shows that high numbers of troops serving in Iraq believe that the war is a response to the now discredited belief that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 or had substantial links to al Qaeda."

http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

-----------------

Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'

A US survey of battlefield ethics among troops in Iraq has found widespread tolerance for torture in certain circumstances and problems with morale.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

----------------
Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm

Gen Sir Michael Rose also told the BBC's Newsnight programme that the US and the UK must "admit defeat" and stop fighting "a hopeless war" in Iraq.


I didnt say Saddam attacked us, I said he threatened to, which was his mistake wasnt it? Now look at him..lol.. Those who share his goal will share his fate. When the president of the US says we are going to nuke the middle east you let me know and I will guarantee you that there would be a preemtive strike on the US
So you going to kill everyone that threatens you? What could a man sitting half way across the world do to the most powerful nation? US attaked Saddam for national interests and oil, what else can you expect from greedy pigs.

I would like to kill everyone who would like to attack my country, they threaten my security I see no reason for them to be around. You "Muslims" or those who claim to be, attacked the US first, what you see in the middle east today is a response to that. And you are right, we dont make threats, we act when necessary, please show me how the US started these wars. As for you comment on the majority of the world wants to attack the US, I think you must be confused, the majority of the world helped the US attack, so get your facts right instead of spewing garbage all the time. I would be willing to bet more people despise Muslims in the world today than US citizens. Why do you think your rights are being taken away everywhere, oh yeah because of the actions of many of your brothers and sisters, no one wants you in their land anymore.
Thanks for sharing that, shows what the average American thinks of others and value of life. US has meddled in Muslim world far too much with out much retaliation. They like to put puppet leaders and US friendly regimes in place for it’s on national interest. Bin Laden never did 9-11 now was interested in coming to the Kuffar land, all he demanded and wanted was kuffars to leave HIS land.


How many US military bases are in the Muslim world? What purpose do they have there? How much would US support any gov’ts base in the US? Majority of the world was against the attacks and US crusade in the Middle East, a few allies helped US wage the war. But when you have bullies and tyrants like Blair, Bush and, Sharon, and UN running the world, many nations are a bit afraid to speak up. Look up on the net how many attacks are made on the US Gov’t systems online in a day alone from other countries. Those who can’t attack openly do so by online. And don’t ask me for statistics on that either, go search yourself. When Americans and their leaders stop acting like ethenocentric war mongers, then there will be peace in the world.
Reply

islamirama
05-11-2007, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Al qaeda is doing the right thing by killing the US military men,i sincerely hope more and more will unite to fight the foreign invaders.

But the problem lies not in Al Qaeda but in US policies.

They do not want the SHiites to gain power,but nor do they want the Sunni to retrun to power.

****tes are the majority while the Sunni were the one "evil" as propaganda by the west.

So in all this,the Iraqis should unite,sunni and ****te and defend their land from all invaders before settling civil dispute.


Poll: Muslims Believe US Seeks to Undermine Islam

Majorities Want US Forces Out of Islamic Countries
And Approve of Attacks on US Troops

Large Majorities Agree With Many Goals of Al Qaeda
But Oppose Attacks on Civilians

Most Support Enhancing Role of Islam in Their Society,
But Also Favor Globalization and Democracy


http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...t=346&lb=hmpg2



-----------------




World View of US Role Goes From Bad to Worse

The US military presence in the Middle East is exceedingly unpopular. In 23 of 25 countries the most common view is that it “provokes more conflict than it prevents.” While in only one country (Nigeria) is the most common view that the US presence is stabilizing.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...nt=306&lb=btis

Survey Finds Suspicion of US in Islamic World Body:

An average of more than 75 percent of respondents across the four countries – Egypt, Morocco, and the world's two most populous Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan – said they believed that dividing and weakening the Islamic world and maintaining control over Middle East oil were key goals of U.S. foreign policy, according to the survey by the University of Maryland (UM) and WorldPublicOpinion.org (WPO).

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi..._Apr07_rpt.pdf


Reply

yahia12
05-12-2007, 04:45 AM
Nobody is suprised :)

Al qaida is like a virus spreading rapidly.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-12-2007, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
I grow tired of providing proofs which later are either dismissed or the inquire goes mute and picks another point to attack and dwell on. Except the facts and get a grip on reality already! Oh and please educate yourself about all this before you come on the forums to talk!
Wow! This is going to be really fun to respond to. I think the reason that most people probably dont respond to your post about this garbage is because it is completely idiotic.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Ok this one is easy, the news article states that it is the Bush and Clinton administration that were part of the cause of 9/11, not that they actually blew the buildings up. To say that this is "proof" that the US blew up there own buildings is your imagination running wild
ok an Ohio university polled 1,010 people, there are 300,000,000 people in the US, what in the world makes you think that this represents the 1/3 of the US peoples view? Let me tell you something my friend, if 9/11 were an inside job, CNN, MSNBC, BBC, etc would be all over it, the fact is that is just didnt happen. As far as your theory here that somehow 333 people out of 1010 people represent the entire country, it is laughable. I will stop there though because I am pretty sure this one has been and can easily be shown as false.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
"A LeMoyne College/Zogby International poll shows that high numbers of troops serving in Iraq believe that the war is a response to the now discredited belief that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11 or had substantial links to al Qaeda."
Why is this news? Yes the initial information that there were WMD in Iraq turned out wrong, but here is the thing, SH threatened many times over an attack with these types of weapons, therefore he was a potential threat. The fact that they werent there (or I could throw out the conspiracy theory that they were moved before troops got them, but I wont stoop to your level) means nothing, the man was a threat to everyone around him and the US. And whether or not he had them is irrelevant, at the very least he was a very very good candidate to be used by Al-Qaida as a government conduit for their operations.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
A US survey of battlefield ethics among troops in Iraq has found widespread tolerance for torture in certain circumstances and problems with morale.
I wonder what the ethics of the Al-Qaeda and other fighters in Iraq might be found to be? It is obvious that it is a brutal enemy, which means that we must adapt and use similar tactics to show we are not to be messed with, this is war, not a tea party, nasty bad things happen in war. What is your point?

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
I would agree with this if it said the Iraqi people. The insurgents are just as much foreign invaders as the US is, I would bet if you polled the Iraqis they would take the US troops over the insurgents anyways. The deaths caused by these insurgents is many many many many times higher than that caused by US troops.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Gen Sir Michael Rose also told the BBC's Newsnight programme that the US and the UK must "admit defeat" and stop fighting "a hopeless war" in Iraq.
I dont think that there is defeat for the US, but the war is hopeless. I would love to leave Iraq and let these people jsut keep killing each other, heck they are eliminating themselves, they dont seem to need any help.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
So you going to kill everyone that threatens you? What could a man sitting half way across the world do to the most powerful nation? US attaked Saddam for national interests and oil, what else can you expect from greedy pigs.
Yes, kill anyone that threatens us. There is no need to threaten the US, we have never invaded any country unprovoked. So if you threaten then you ask for it. What could he do? Well if he had what he said he could pass it to terrorists or launch an attack himself and cause many more deaths than that of 9/11. As for your last statement, it shows your complete ignorance. Show me one drop of free, reduced price, etc. oil that has come from Iraq...LOL It truly does show your mindset and your level of intelligence. The information about price and amounts of oil the US recieves from various country is public information, look it up and get your facts straight so you can stop looking uneducated.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Thanks for sharing that, shows what the average American thinks of others and value of life. US has meddled in Muslim world far too much with out much retaliation. They like to put puppet leaders and US friendly regimes in place for it’s on national interest. Bin Laden never did 9-11 now was interested in coming to the Kuffar land, all he demanded and wanted was kuffars to leave HIS land.
Yes, the value of my life, to me, is higher than that of the one who threatens me. I would think anyone would agree with that. I wont respond to puppet leaders because really what is the difference between those we have helped to power and those who have taken, usually the countries that the US helps live in peace with the world, the others do not.

As far as bin Laden, let me let you in on a little secret, he is an outcast from his own country. His country requested the US come to their land and help them, it was not bin Ladens decision to make. His attack was unprovoked and was the work of a psychotic. If he wanted the US to leave his country, he should have appealed to officials. (by the way I think you are using the term kuffar out of context, I am told that only polytheist are Kuffar, and the US is more of a Christian country, but please let me know if you are using it in a derogatory sense, because there are plenty of things I could call your people)

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
How many US military bases are in the Muslim world? What purpose do they have there? How much would US support any gov’ts base in the US? Majority of the world was against the attacks and US crusade in the Middle East, a few allies helped US wage the war. But when you have bullies and tyrants like Blair, Bush and, Sharon, and UN running the world, many nations are a bit afraid to speak up. Look up on the net how many attacks are made on the US Gov’t systems online in a day alone from other countries. Those who can’t attack openly do so by online. And don’t ask me for statistics on that either, go search yourself. When Americans and their leaders stop acting like ethenocentric war mongers, then there will be peace in the world.
There are currently 16 bases in the middle east for the US, but that is only while we are at war and these bases are leased to US by allies. What is it your concern, they have not taken these bases, they were offered to them. If a country needed the US as a base in a war situation the US would help, as long as that country was an allie with the US.

I am not really sure what to think when you say majority, because of your ridiculousness above with your statistics. You speak of attacks on the US govt systems, this is more nonsense, there may be people attempting to breach security but they never or rarely do, and that doesnt mean that everyone is doing it, there are 6 billion people in the world, think about it, if there were 1000 different people each day "attacking" it that is barely a percentage, and could easily come from one country or even one terror group.

When people like you stop blaming everyone else for their problems and come to grip with reality, then the world will come to peace. When your Muslim people stop attacking our embassies, buildings and people, then there will be peace. When Muslims in general stop acting like they have nothing to do with the problems in the world today, then there will be peace. You use the word ethnocentric, and it is funny because throughout your people history you are absolutely the most ethnocentric people ever to walk the earth.

Please dont respond with anymore of your garbage, next time bring something realistic.:rant: :grumbling
Reply

islamirama
05-12-2007, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Wow! This is going to be really fun to respond to. I think the reason that most people probably dont respond to your post about this garbage is because it is completely idiotic.


Ok this one is easy, the news article states that it is the Bush and Clinton administration that were part of the cause of 9/11, not that they actually blew the buildings up. To say that this is "proof" that the US blew up there own buildings is your imagination running wild

ok an Ohio university polled 1,010 people, there are 300,000,000 people in the US, what in the world makes you think that this represents the 1/3 of the US peoples view? Let me tell you something my friend, if 9/11 were an inside job, CNN, MSNBC, BBC, etc would be all over it, the fact is that is just didnt happen. As far as your theory here that somehow 333 people out of 1010 people represent the entire country, it is laughable. I will stop there though because I am pretty sure this one has been and can easily be shown as false.


Why is this news? Yes the initial information that there were WMD in Iraq turned out wrong, but here is the thing, SH threatened many times over an attack with these types of weapons, therefore he was a potential threat. The fact that they werent there (or I could throw out the conspiracy theory that they were moved before troops got them, but I wont stoop to your level) means nothing, the man was a threat to everyone around him and the US. And whether or not he had them is irrelevant, at the very least he was a very very good candidate to be used by Al-Qaida as a government conduit for their operations.


I wonder what the ethics of the Al-Qaeda and other fighters in Iraq might be found to be? It is obvious that it is a brutal enemy, which means that we must adapt and use similar tactics to show we are not to be messed with, this is war, not a tea party, nasty bad things happen in war. What is your point?


I would agree with this if it said the Iraqi people. The insurgents are just as much foreign invaders as the US is, I would bet if you polled the Iraqis they would take the US troops over the insurgents anyways. The deaths caused by these insurgents is many many many many times higher than that caused by US troops.


I dont think that there is defeat for the US, but the war is hopeless. I would love to leave Iraq and let these people jsut keep killing each other, heck they are eliminating themselves, they dont seem to need any help.


Yes, kill anyone that threatens us. There is no need to threaten the US, we have never invaded any country unprovoked. So if you threaten then you ask for it. What could he do? Well if he had what he said he could pass it to terrorists or launch an attack himself and cause many more deaths than that of 9/11. As for your last statement, it shows your complete ignorance. Show me one drop of free, reduced price, etc. oil that has come from Iraq...LOL It truly does show your mindset and your level of intelligence. The information about price and amounts of oil the US recieves from various country is public information, look it up and get your facts straight so you can stop looking uneducated.


Yes, the value of my life, to me, is higher than that of the one who threatens me. I would think anyone would agree with that. I wont respond to puppet leaders because really what is the difference between those we have helped to power and those who have taken, usually the countries that the US helps live in peace with the world, the others do not.

As far as bin Laden, let me let you in on a little secret, he is an outcast from his own country. His country requested the US come to their land and help them, it was not bin Ladens decision to make. His attack was unprovoked and was the work of a psychotic. If he wanted the US to leave his country, he should have appealed to officials. (by the way I think you are using the term kuffar out of context, I am told that only polytheist are Kuffar, and the US is more of a Christian country, but please let me know if you are using it in a derogatory sense, because there are plenty of things I could call your people)



There are currently 16 bases in the middle east for the US, but that is only while we are at war and these bases are leased to US by allies. What is it your concern, they have not taken these bases, they were offered to them. If a country needed the US as a base in a war situation the US would help, as long as that country was an allie with the US.

I am not really sure what to think when you say majority, because of your ridiculousness above with your statistics. You speak of attacks on the US govt systems, this is more nonsense, there may be people attempting to breach security but they never or rarely do, and that doesnt mean that everyone is doing it, there are 6 billion people in the world, think about it, if there were 1000 different people each day "attacking" it that is barely a percentage, and could easily come from one country or even one terror group.

When people like you stop blaming everyone else for their problems and come to grip with reality, then the world will come to peace. When your Muslim people stop attacking our embassies, buildings and people, then there will be peace. When Muslims in general stop acting like they have nothing to do with the problems in the world today, then there will be peace. You use the word ethnocentric, and it is funny because throughout your people history you are absolutely the most ethnocentric people ever to walk the earth.

Please dont respond with anymore of your garbage, next time bring something realistic.:rant: :grumbling
talking to you is like talking to a monkey. You can continue believing what your king kong tells you and continue making excuses and try to defend against anything that is put forth. You don't even believe what your top allies, polls of americans, and other people have said. It's an illegal war based on lies of WMD and nothing more. If Uk or other ally was attacked US would run to their help, same goes for Muslims. You attack iraq then Muslims from other nations will go fight and help their fellow muslims. The many many killings happening there are done by your troops who blow up cars in markets to blame the sunni vs shia. Anyways, now that i see what a typical american you are, no use talking to you on such issues with your closed mind.
Reply

islamirama
05-12-2007, 04:56 PM
War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal


Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan


Army chiefs feared Iraq war illegal just days before start


Former UN Chief Weapons Inspector Hans Blix: Iraq War Was Illegal


Bush and Saddam Should Both Stand Trial for War Crimes, Says Nuremberg Prosecutor
Reply

Keltoi
05-12-2007, 07:13 PM
This thread should probably be closed. It has become a thread of conspiracy theories and propoganda links.
Reply

islamirama
05-12-2007, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
This thread should probably be closed. It has become a thread of conspiracy theories and propoganda links.
If you call news from BBC and other credible sources as conspiracy theories then yes we should close this thread, as there is nothing left to discuss after this.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-12-2007, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
talking to you is like talking to a monkey. You can continue believing what your king kong tells you and continue making excuses and try to defend against anything that is put forth. You don't even believe what your top allies, polls of americans, and other people have said. It's an illegal war based on lies of WMD and nothing more. If Uk or other ally was attacked US would run to their help, same goes for Muslims. You attack iraq then Muslims from other nations will go fight and help their fellow muslims. The many many killings happening there are done by your troops who blow up cars in markets to blame the sunni vs shia. Anyways, now that i see what a typical american you are, no use talking to you on such issues with your closed mind.
talking to me is like talking to a monkey??!! LOL that is again laughable.. You provided links which I thoroughly explained and proved to be either inaccurate or an incomplete poll of the american public, so what is so difficult to understand about that to you? You now state that the government controls the media, again you show you are just another crazy. You quoted from BBC, are they not "king kong" as well, or are they only controlled by the government when they say things you dont like? I believe you are just another brainwashed conspiracy theorist. The fact that some ex generals or ex military personel disagree with the war has no bearing on whether the war is illegal according to international law. You again seem to forget that the US was attacked first. And yes you are right if the US were attack other COUNTRIES would stick their neck out for the US, to bad Muslims countries hide behind their mysterious insurgents, at least we are man enough to show ourselves when we fight. Then you go on to talk about US troops are the ones setting off the car bombs, but guess what, the insurgency claims these attacks, almost everytime, with their finger pointing internet clips with a sheet behind them, or is that all staged too? Not only that but if the US wanted to kill everyone in Iraq, and all the Muslims, why do we continue to try and mediate and police Iraq? Why would we not just go in the air and by water and destroy them all, save our money, and take their oil, that would be logical if it were the objective, however it is not and that it what makes you look like such a narrowminded fool. I find you final statement extremely intriguing, you call me a "typical" american but yet in two of your last posts you stated that most americans (50% and 1/3) would disagree with my views. Then you call me closed minded...lol... are you not arguing the same? You are incredibly _______ (fill in the blank):happy: I am no more closed minded than you my friend I just choose to believe the more firm and founded set of facts while you choose to believe the nonsensical garbage that suits your own personal interests. Again I will tell you, believing the US is the problem here, is not going to solve it. Right now these "Muslim groups" cause more problems in the world than the US could dream of, you need to get off the extremist bandwagon.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-12-2007, 09:44 PM
what is your point?? What should the US have done in response to the 9/11 tragedy? Should we leave ourselves open, no reaction, let people keep bombing our embassies and cities? What about OBL, should he have to face war crimes? What about all of the insurgent groups, they too then should face war crimes... The thing is the US is not at war in iraq right now, our objectives in iraq are complete, we are just trying to provide security now, which cant be done because of the mongrels and heathens that insist on the deaths of more muslims to get people like you to believe it is all the US's fault. Face it, the Muslim world (in the middle east) today is in shambles and probably wont recover. It isnt the US's fault you cant be civilized and get along because of ridiculous religious differences. But hey, I think we will be leaving relatively soon anyways, so we will see who is blowing up mosques and setting off car bombs and killing officials, police, women, children and other innocent civilians. You should be ashamed
Reply

islamirama
05-12-2007, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
what is your point?? What should the US have done in response to the 9/11 tragedy? Should we leave ourselves open, no reaction, let people keep bombing our embassies and cities? What about OBL, should he have to face war crimes? What about all of the insurgent groups, they too then should face war crimes... The thing is the US is not at war in iraq right now, our objectives in iraq are complete, we are just trying to provide security now, which cant be done because of the mongrels and heathens that insist on the deaths of more muslims to get people like you to believe it is all the US's fault. Face it, the Muslim world (in the middle east) today is in shambles and probably wont recover. It isnt the US's fault you cant be civilized and get along because of ridiculous religious differences. But hey, I think we will be leaving relatively soon anyways, so we will see who is blowing up mosques and setting off car bombs and killing officials, police, women, children and other innocent civilians. You should be ashamed
One question for you, when an inquiry was ordered and more investigations into 9-11, WHY did Bush and his cronies stopped it? why did they say its "waste" of time and lets hurry and go to war? what do they have to hide?

say what you want, 25 muslim countries polled and majority in all of them said they dont' know who did 9-11 and they believe it's a war on islam (not terror). Today your george the retard monkey does as he pleases, tomorrow americans will pay for his war crimes.
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Amadeus85
05-12-2007, 10:54 PM
As i know muslim extremists began to attack USA long before George W.Bush became a president.
Those attacks like- first attack on WTC, attack on american embassy in Lebanon, hostages taken in Iran in american embassy, it all hapenned long before Bush was elected.
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MTAFFI
05-13-2007, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
One question for you, when an inquiry was ordered and more investigations into 9-11, WHY did Bush and his cronies stopped it? why did they say its "waste" of time and lets hurry and go to war? what do they have to hide?

say what you want, 25 muslim countries polled and majority in all of them said they dont' know who did 9-11 and they believe it's a war on islam (not terror). Today your george the retard monkey does as he pleases, tomorrow americans will pay for his war crimes.

OK lets see some proof over these claims... 9/11 is still in "an investigative state" to this day. And please dont give me claims from prisonplanet or infowars or any other ridiculous conspiracy party that is not allowed access to files. I mean even the people that called their husbands and wives, said the plane was under attack from mid eastern terrorist, all who were found to have met with OBL, all who admitted in video tape what there cause was, their religion that was behind it and who they met with. You are ridiculous, there are no war crimes accept those committed by your people. At least when there is a claim an american does something wrong it is investigated and the soldier(s) are brought to trial. I wonder what will happen to those who executed Nick Berg, an innocent civilian contractor, when will those people go on trial. Oh yeah that was done by Muslims so that is OK with you right. The more I meet and talk to people like you the more I lose respect for your people as a whole. It seems that except for a handful of Muslims share this uncivilized, uneducated, fall behind every conspiracy theory out there sort of mindset. I mean if someone said Bush was actually Saddam Hussein, and he staged his own execution only so he could keep war in his own country AND run the US and terrorize its citizens I wouldnt be suprised to see you jump on that wagon as well. Get a grip man, they dont call it conspiracy THEORY for nothing. I am sure it is easy to post on a Muslim site about this type of garbage, why dont you go to a pro US site and post it and get a hands on idea of what americans really think. Open both eyes and you might see a little clearer.:D
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islamirama
05-13-2007, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
As i know muslim extremists began to attack USA long before George W.Bush became a president.
Those attacks like- first attack on WTC, attack on american embassy in Lebanon, hostages taken in Iran in american embassy, it all hapenned long before Bush was elected.
Lebanon, US full support (financial, weaponry, political, moral) to israel since it's existance. Israel invades and occupies south lebanon. Israel and it's allies that provide it weapons are legitimate targets.

iran, let's not even go there with what US had been doing with shah and regime changes and what not.

want to talk about other embasies? US had been at war with Muslims thru out history, positiong military bases in Muslim lands, supporting tyrants ruling muslim lands, engaged in operative regime changes, and then that dam foriegn policey. Go look at history and every honest expert on these conflicts and they will agree its the foreign policy AGAINST Muslims that is making the animosity grow. Muslim don't attack, the REact. What you see is what was made possibly by US meddling in Muslim world for it's "national interests of oil" and for israel.

Mtaffi,

two words for you ....

False Flags
Reply

MTAFFI
05-13-2007, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama

Mtaffi,

two words for you ....
islamirama

two words for you

hopeless fool
Reply

Zman
05-14-2007, 03:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The article is about 2007, not 2002. Anybody that has been paying attention the past few years knows that Al-Qaeda, or at least something calling itself Al-Qaeda, has been in Iraq for awhile now. Remember that guy Zarqawi, the Al-Qaeda in Iraq leader? The point of the article is that this Al-Qaeda affiliated group is claiming responsibility for some suicide bombings. It doesn't really say anything new, just a bit of news about who is claiming responsibility for suicide attacks.
Ok, AQ/Iraq claimed responsibility, what point are you trying to make?
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Keltoi
05-14-2007, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
Ok, AQ/Iraq claimed responsibility, what point are you trying to make?
That post was in response to people who threw out accusations without actually reading the article or understanding the context.
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Zman
05-14-2007, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The article is about 2007, not 2002. Anybody that has been paying attention the past few years knows that Al-Qaeda, or at least something calling itself Al-Qaeda, has been in Iraq for awhile now.

Remember that guy Zarqawi, the Al-Qaeda in Iraq leader? The point of the article is that this Al-Qaeda affiliated group is claiming responsibility for some suicide bombings. It doesn't really say anything new, just a bit of news about who is claiming responsibility for suicide attacks.
That's true. But, you failed to mention that "Al Qaeda" wouldn't even be in Iraq, at the moment, if it weren't for the US/UK invasion of that defenseless nation.

And, AQ is responsible for some of the suicide attacks. Don't forget to mention the US/UK's occupation forces' complicity...
[/i]
Reply

Zman
05-14-2007, 04:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The article is about 2007, not 2002. Anybody that has been paying attention the past few years knows that Al-Qaeda, or at least something calling itself Al-Qaeda, has been in Iraq for awhile now.

Remember that guy Zarqawi, the Al-Qaeda in Iraq leader? The point of the article is that this Al-Qaeda affiliated group is claiming responsibility for some suicide bombings. It doesn't really say anything new, just a bit of news about who is claiming responsibility for suicide attacks.

That's true. But, you failed to mention that "Al Qaeda" wouldn't even be in Iraq, at the moment, if it weren't for the US/UK invasion of that defenseless nation.

And, AQ is responsible for some of the suicide attacks. Don't forget to mention the US/UK's occupation forces' complicity...
Reply

Zman
05-14-2007, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamic_warrior
I heard Americans intentionally go to dangerous towns and give out candy to kids so they can become human sheild for them...
:sl:

US Army Uses Iraqi Children As Human Shields Again

Wednesday, July 13, 2005

Twenty-four Iraqi children were killed Wednesday by a suicide car bomber targeting American soldiers handing out sweets after entering their Baghdad neighborhood precisely to warn of a possible attack.

Some 20 more children were wounded in the blast, while a US soldier died and three were injured, hospital and US sources said. "A driver approached one of the US Humvees and then detonated his car," said Sergeant David Abrams.

[...]

"Children gathered round the Americans who were handing out sweets. Suddenly a suicide car bomber drove round from a side street and blew himself up," Hassan Mohammed added.

The last such attack involved a triple car bombing against US troops inaugurating a water treatment plant in western Baghdad on September 30. Forty-three people were killed, including 37 children who had gathered to take candy from the soldiers

Who is more to blame? The Iraqi resistance targeting occupation military soldiers or the coward US army hiding behind Iraqi kids?

The attacks that target Iraqi civilians should be condemned whether they're carried out by the US army (like the daily attacks) or by others (like some ethnic attacks against mosques and individuals). Yet, the attacks targeting military convoys that kills Iraqi civilians gathering around them is another story, or at least a more controversial one. Civilians shouldn't be put in danger by sending military troops close to their homes.

Niki linked to a US soldier's blog some months ago quoting him saying: "I'm going to probably buy alot of candy when I goto the PX in the camp. That way, I can hand it out to the kids. They'll be more likely to help us avoid things we wouldn't otherwise be able to avoid if not for them". Maybe some of these quotes were the reason why A 3 star General approved an "order" that all milbloggers have to tell their chain of command about their blog . It seems we won't be enjoying some new smart quotes any more...

Using kids as human shields is such a shameful US Army policy. It's one of the worst policies in the illegal occupation that caused the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis till now.


Source:
http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/...-as-human.html
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MTAFFI
05-14-2007, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:
[i]
US Army Uses Iraqi Children As Human Shields Again

Wednesday, July 13, 2005

Twenty-four Iraqi children were killed Wednesday by a suicide car bomber targeting American soldiers handing out sweets after entering their Baghdad neighborhood precisely to warn of a possible attack.

Some 20 more children were wounded in the blast, while a US soldier died and three were injured, hospital and US sources said. "A driver approached one of the US Humvees and then detonated his car," said Sergeant David Abrams.

[...]
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME?!?! You really think that the US used children as a human shield because a suicide bomber drove his truck into the kids and soldiers and killed some of them?? This is proposterous, you act as though the sick individual who did this didnt see the kids, or that he couldnt have simply turned around and come back another time. Some people are really disgusting. Keep living in your little world, keep thinking that Al_Qaeda has your best interest in mind, keep thinking that this nonsense propoganda that your perpetuate as fact is true. It only dims your intelligence and makes you even more vulnerable when the troops do finally pull out. What a totally ridiculous joke of a post that really is, you should be ashamed of your self for being that gullible and ignorant. Doesnt the Quran say something about those who wish to make you believe things that are simply not true?
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Joe98
05-15-2007, 05:56 AM
In this case we don’t know whether the suicide bomber was Sunni, Shiite or Al-queda. However the bomber had a goal.

The Americans were trying to be nice to the children. The suicide bomber hates that!

By killing the children, parents in the future will not allow their children to be friendly with US soldiers.
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vpb
05-15-2007, 05:57 AM
You guys like to talk in these kind of threads , dont you , lol:p
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E'jaazi
05-15-2007, 06:37 AM
It's because of the US the AQ is in Iraq! The US started all of this. As bad as Saddam might have been, things in Iraq were not this bad.
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Joe98
05-15-2007, 10:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by E'jaazi
It's because of the US the AQ is in Iraq!


As bad as Saddam might have been, things in Iraq were not this bad.

But who is making it bad?

The US soldiers have the task of protecting the workers who are trying to build infrastructure.

The Shiite and Sunni are killing the workers and killing each other.

It is the Sunni and Shiia who are making it bad.
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MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
But who is making it bad?

The US soldiers have the task of protecting the workers who are trying to build infrastructure.

The Shiite and Sunni are killing the workers and killing each other.

It is the Sunni and Shiia who are making it bad.

That is the most accurate 4 sentence response I have seen on this forum
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
But who is making it bad?

The US soldiers have the task of protecting the workers who are trying to build infrastructure.

The Shiite and Sunni are killing the workers and killing each other.

It is the Sunni and Shiia who are making it bad.
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
That is the most accurate 4 sentence response I have seen on this forum
Sunni Attacking shia?

Sunnis are too busy fighting the occupation forces to waste time, ammunition and precious lives in attacking Shia'ah civilians or destroying their holy sites.

To my knowledge, Sunnis have never persecuted the Siya'ah nor curse them or call for war with them. The scholars of Ahlu-Ssunnah wal-Jamaa'ah always seek open debate and dialog with Shiya'ah scholars to bring forth the truth and expose misguidance.

I do not see the Shiya'ah resisting or fighting against the occupation forces in Iraq! It is only Sunni m.u.j.a.h.i.d.e.e.n. that are doing the fighting while the Siya'ah stand by watching and many join the puppet Iraqi Army to fight along-side the occupation forces while others provide them information about the resistance.

Bombing of Shiya'ah masaajid and civilian gatherings in Iraq is the work of the Americans and Israeli agents. It is very easy for American troops to plant car bombs near markets and explosives inside masaajid then remotely detonate them. I believe the Israelis must be involved as well since they are behind the idea of invading and occupying Iraq . Also, the Israelis have been in constant contact with the Kurds in the north and are cooperating in various areas (supposedly) of interest to both. The U.S. wants to ignite civil war between Sunnis and Shiya'ah so that it can divert the Sunni resistance effort to fighting Shiya'ah militias and to drain their resources in that direction. Moreover, the civil war will enable the Americans to watch and pick the Sunni resistance fighters as they fight with the Shiya'ah.

It is so stupid to fall into this old and familiar "Divide-and-Conquer" trap used by the Europeans throughout history to conquer other nations . The Romans used it to establish their huge empire and the British, who came from an Island, used it to establish their own empire around the world. The French, then the Americans after them, have divided Vietnam into North and South. The Americans have divided Korea into North and South and the British have divided Pakistan into East and West Pakistan and sold Kashmir to a Hindu Maharaja as a time bomb to create regional division between India and Pakistan in the future.


Market Bombing & civilian deaths - Interesting Testimonies


"One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."


Source

Khadduri's report went like this: "A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license… we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. …The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

(2) On May 13, 2005, a 64 years old Iraqi farmer, Haj Haidar Abu Sijjad, took his tomato load in his pickup truck from Hilla to Baghdad, accompanied by Ali, his 11 years old grandson. They were stopped at an American check point and were asked to dismount. ….A minute later, his grandson told him that he saw one of the American soldiers putting a grey melon size object in the back among the tomato containers. "They intended it to explode in Baghdad …'.


Source
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MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Sunni Attacking shia?

Sunnis are too busy fighting the occupation forces to waste time, ammunition and precious lives in attacking Shia'ah civilians or destroying their holy sites.
.....
If I ever need a good source of Al-Qaeda propoganda I will be sure to come to you. If these people are so busy fighting the "Occupation" then why do they continue to kill more of each other in a day than US forces in a month? Sunni and Shia have fought and waged war with each other for centuries, if the US were doing all these attacks why wouldnt we just fly over the country and use our military might? We could have been out of there years ago with limited casualites.. Your whole post is a waste of space, and by the way I notice you have posted it several times before, just so you know it holds no more weight now than it did then.
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 02:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
If I ever need a good source of Al-Qaeda propoganda I will be sure to come to you. If these people are so busy fighting the "Occupation" then why do they continue to kill more of each other in a day than US forces in a month? Sunni and Shia have fought and waged war with each other for centuries, if the US were doing all these attacks why wouldnt we just fly over the country and use our military might? We could have been out of there years ago with limited casualites.. Your whole post is a waste of space, and by the way I notice you have posted it several times before, just so you know it holds no more weight now than it did then.
Do you think i care what you think? you have been brainwashed and spoon fed by your media to think the way you do. And dont' try turning that statement back on me. Nothing you say holds weigh as you are just a patriotic poor man trying to defend an idiot leader. 25 countries majority have stated the opinions in the polls as well as 1/2 the americans and yet you dismiss it so easily. Got news for you buddy, world doesn't evovle around you and you are not important enough to even listen to let alone give any weigh to what you say. Polls speaks for themselves what the world thinks of all of this.And despite how many different sources i bring, you will give me the same old speal so there is no point in talking to you. Enjoy your world in a glass and keep wondering "why do they hate us"
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MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Do you think i care what you think? you have been brainwashed and spoon fed by your media to think the way you do. And dont' try turning that statement back on me. Nothing you say holds weigh as you are just a patriotic poor man trying to defend an idiot leader. 25 countries majority have stated the opinions in the polls as well as 1/2 the americans and yet you dismiss it so easily. Got news for you buddy, world doesn't evovle around you and you are not important enough to even listen to let alone give any weigh to what you say. Polls speaks for themselves what the world thinks of all of this.And despite how many different sources i bring, you will give me the same old speal so there is no point in talking to you. Enjoy your world in a glass and keep wondering "why do they hate us"
okey dokey, whatever you say...lol.. I am brainwashed :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I never said I like Bush, in fact, I cant wait until the elections. I look at all sources of media, it seems froms your posts that you only look to one source, I remain objective and unbiased, while you consider no other belief or opinion other than what suits your needs. I do not rely on polls because they typically come from a small number of people and depending on the source they are typically biased. I could poll 1010 people at the university of charlotte about who is their favorite football team, and I bet over 90% would say the Carolina panthers, would that mean 90% of americans love the panthers? If I polled a black community in a poor neighborhood on whether or not they like Bush, do their views represent the US as a whole? I dont think so, unless everyone is polled a poll holds no weight, but that is only my opinion, which according to you holds no weight anyways... But then again what do your words hold? The same statements and articles from the same conspiracy theory sites or biased poll research. Wow.... I think your post directed at me is more like a direct reflection of yourself and your ignorance as to how the world works. If you would just look at things from two sides and try to see what is really happening, rather than what you wish was happening, I think your arguments could not only be more productive but more reliable and true as well.
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
okey dokey, whatever you say...lol.. I am brainwashed :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I never said I like Bush, in fact, I cant wait until the elections. I look at all sources of media, it seems froms your posts that you only look to one source, I remain objective and unbiased, while you consider no other belief or opinion other than what suits your needs. I do not rely on polls because they typically come from a small number of people and depending on the source they are typically biased. I could poll 1010 people at the university of charlotte about who is their favorite football team, and I bet over 90% would say the Carolina panthers, would that mean 90% of americans love the panthers? If I polled a black community in a poor neighborhood on whether or not they like Bush, do their views represent the US as a whole? I dont think so, unless everyone is polled a poll holds no weight, but that is only my opinion, which according to you holds no weight anyways... But then again what do your words hold? The same statements and articles from the same conspiracy theory sites or biased poll research. Wow.... I think your post directed at me is more like a direct reflection of yourself and your ignorance as to how the world works. If you would just look at things from two sides and try to see what is really happening, rather than what you wish was happening, I think your arguments could not only be more productive but more reliable and true as well.
here's some new sources for you...


Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

1/3 of US troops in Iraq 'condone torture': poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

One in Ten US Occupation Troops Admit Mistreating Civilians
Less than half of the soldiers and marines would report a team member for unethical behavior;
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17647.htm


Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm
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Keltoi
05-15-2007, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
here's some new sources for you...


Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

1/3 of US troops in Iraq 'condone torture': poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

One in Ten US Occupation Troops Admit Mistreating Civilians
Less than half of the soldiers and marines would report a team member for unethical behavior;
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17647.htm


Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm
This has got to be the first time a "survey" has been taken with soldiers during wartime. Not a good time to look for sensitivity and rational remarks.

That being said, U.S. soldiers are far more sensitive to the needs of civilians than probably any occupying force in history. That is one reason the U.S. military "hates" the enemy in Iraq so much, because they brutally kill civilians right and left. But guess what, this enemy that the U.S. military hates so much is also given medical attention if wounded on the battlefield. I know of one particular case where a platoon of soldiers were engaged in an hour long firefight so they could medivac a wounded insurgent out of the warzone. So while these surveys might point to the frustration and anger some in the U.S. military feel towards their enemies, it doesn't address the reality of what soldiers do on the battlefield.
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MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
here's some new sources for you...


Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

1/3 of US troops in Iraq 'condone torture': poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

One in Ten US Occupation Troops Admit Mistreating Civilians
Less than half of the soldiers and marines would report a team member for unethical behavior;
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17647.htm


Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm
I dont deny any of those articles, yes there have been cases of torture, yes civilians have been mistreated, yes war is a disgusting travesty created by human kind and horrible things happen when it takes its course. I do not doubt or hesitate to agree that the US has done some injustices to the Iraqi people, I do not believe that it is right. I also dont doubt that the insurgency is also trying to remove troops but do no doubt for a second that they are doing a much better job at killing innocents and other insurgents than they are at killing our soldiers. I believe that if you could "poll" (since you have such an interest in such useless things) Iraqis, they would rather have US troops than the indiscriminate insurgents who blow up schools, mosques, and markets, full of women and children. The only thing that the US can say for these soldiers is that we are sorry for their mistakes. But it is war, and a war where you dont know if a civilian is in fact the enemy until he shoots at you.

I do not wish to antagonize you or irritate you islamarama I just wish to help you to see that your views are one sided and you can gain no true knowledge of anything unless you take in from an unbiased point of view. For each article you have posted above I could post one that shows different. Polls are garbage, dont waste your time. Look at every news agency, look at a biased toward muslim and look at a biased toward the US, then try and find one in the middle. Take all the information put it together swirl it around in your coffee and somewhere in there you will find the truth. :D
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I believe that if you could "poll" (since you have such an interest in such useless things) Iraqis, they would rather have US troops than the indiscriminate insurgents who blow up schools, mosques, and markets, full of women and children.


"One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."


Source

Khadduri's report went like this: "A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license… we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. …The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

(2) On May 13, 2005, a 64 years old Iraqi farmer, Haj Haidar Abu Sijjad, took his tomato load in his pickup truck from Hilla to Baghdad, accompanied by Ali, his 11 years old grandson. They were stopped at an American check point and were asked to dismount. ….A minute later, his grandson told him that he saw one of the American soldiers putting a grey melon size object in the back among the tomato containers. "They intended it to explode in Baghdad …'.


Source

I do not wish to antagonize you or irritate you islamarama I just wish to help you to see that your views are one sided and you can gain no true knowledge of anything unless you take in from an unbiased point of view. For each article you have posted above I could post one that shows different. Polls are garbage, dont waste your time. Look at every news agency, look at a biased toward muslim and look at a biased toward the US, then try and find one in the middle. Take all the information put it together swirl it around in your coffee and somewhere in there you will find the truth. :D
right back at ya!
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-15-2007, 03:32 PM
:threadclo
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama

"One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

Source
Robert Fisk has an obviously biased view on the war in Iraq, I am not saying he isnt a good reporter but I am saying that he is very very biased. Again I have to say that I just simply do not believe that this could be true, I believe someone could have said this to him, but I dont think it is true. I think it is extremely fabricated, but time will tell, eventually the US will pull out of Iraq and if these sorts of things continue then we will see, but until then I cannot believe this.


format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
[
Khadduri's report went like this: "A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license… we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. …The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

(2) On May 13, 2005, a 64 years old Iraqi farmer, Haj Haidar Abu Sijjad, took his tomato load in his pickup truck from Hilla to Baghdad, accompanied by Ali, his 11 years old grandson. They were stopped at an American check point and were asked to dismount. ….A minute later, his grandson told him that he saw one of the American soldiers putting a grey melon size object in the back among the tomato containers. "They intended it to explode in Baghdad …'.

Source
Again, I have to use the word propaganda and lies.... I am not even so sure of the credibility of this source

format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
[
right back at ya!
I havent seen a single source of your come from anywhere that is not anti US
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
:threadclo
I bet you wish it were closed, it doesnt serve your best interest
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 04:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME?!?! You really think that the US used children as a human shield because a suicide bomber drove his truck into the kids and soldiers and killed some of them?? This is proposterous, you act as though the sick individual who did this didnt see the kids, or that he couldnt have simply turned around and come back another time. Some people are really disgusting. Keep living in your little world, keep thinking that Al_Qaeda has your best interest in mind, keep thinking that this nonsense propoganda that your perpetuate as fact is true.
It's mighty convenient that you chose to omit what that soldier allegedly said.

It only dims your intelligence and makes you even more vulnerable when the troops do finally pull out. What a totally ridiculous joke of a post that really is, you should be ashamed of your self for being that gullible and ignorant.
Choosing to insult and defame, only shows the true depth of your character.

Doesnt the Quran say something about those who wish to make you believe things that are simply not true?
Citing the Quran, are we?

Have you miraculously become a believer? :lol:

BTW, if you choose to cite a verse, post the EXACT verse with with ayah/surah, numbers, and don't try to ad-lib it
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Again, I have to use the word propaganda and lies.... I am not even so sure of the credibility of this source

I havent seen a single source of your come from anywhere that is not anti US

Convenient excuses and methods of refutation.

Muslims can also use your tactics and always cite: "lies," "propaganda," "anti-Islamic," "biased," "lacking credibility," and it would be that your argument was Just shot out of the water, checkmate, debate over, we win, right?
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
As i know muslim extremists began to attack USA long before George W.Bush became a president.
Those attacks like- first attack on WTC, attack on american embassy in Lebanon, hostages taken in Iran in american embassy, it all hapenned long before Bush was elected.
BTW, the US has been attacking Islamic nations, long before your so-called "Muslim extremists," came into existence.

U.S. action created your so-called "Muslim extremists.

Why did you leave out the many invasions, assassinations, coups of Third World nations, that aren't even Islamic.

The U.S. doesn't have a problem with Muslims only, it has a huge problem with the entire Third World.

And now, "Old Europe," has an issue with the U.S.

BTW, the attack of the U.S. embassy in Lebanon was a legitimate target. Because it housed the Marines.

The U.S. became an actor in Lebanon's war, once it sent in its military, and took sides with the Phalange against the Muslims.

What precipitated that attack, was the shelling of Muslim neighborhoods in Beirut by a U.S. Battleship...
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What about all of the insurgent groups, they too then should face war crimes...
Face war crimes for what? Resisting the US occupation?

The thing is the US is not at war in iraq right now,
Really? So, 130,000 US troops, the Air Force, Navy, the daily bombardments, the battles, those aren't signs of the US being in a war? Ok, Napoleon :lol:

our objectives in iraq are complete,
Of course they are. Our beloved king george did give his seal of approval when he declared: "Mission Accomplished."

we are just trying to provide security now, which cant be done because of the mongrels and heathens that insist on the deaths of more muslims to get people like you to believe it is all the US's fault.
What about the 650,000 Iraqi's who were killed by the U.S. mongrels and heathens?

Or the 500,000 Iraqi children who were murdered during the US's genocidal economic sanctions, which Madeleine Albright stated on 60 Minutes as being "Worth It?"


Face it, the Muslim world (in the middle east) today is in shambles and probably wont recover.
Thanks to the idiots in the White House.

It isnt the US's fault you cant be civilized and get along because of ridiculous religious differences.
Like the U.S. occupations Civilized Behavior at Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, Haditha, the village of Isghaqi, using White Phosphorous and Napalm bombs & cluster bombs against civilians in populated areas, allowing sectarianism to bloom, under our watch? Yes, I agree.
But hey, I think we will be leaving relatively soon anyways, so we will see who is blowing up mosques and setting off car bombs and killing officials, police, women, children and other innocent civilians.
It'll still be the CIA!
You should be ashamed
Actually, a defender of an occupation, of mass murderers and war criminals, like you, is the one who should be truly ashamed.

But, unfortunately, as you have consistently displayed, you have no shame to begin with...
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by E'jaazi
It's because of the US the AQ is in Iraq! The US started all of this. As bad as Saddam might have been, things in Iraq were not this bad.
:sl:

That why in a recent poll, Iraqi's yearned for Saddam's days. In comparison with the gates of hell that the occupation forces opened, Saddam's days were delightful.

But, don't expect some of these guys to agree, they're never wrong.

Even the neocons have admitted their mistake. Even Congress and the Senate are against Bush and his Crusade...
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 05:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
But who is making it bad?

The US soldiers have the task of protecting the workers who are trying to build infrastructure.

What building?

Haven't you read the papers?

All the billions that went missing. It was under the CPA's control.

Even U.S. officials and Generals have said a while back, that the rebilding will not be completed, due to their miscalculation.

They went in their with a ready military plan to overthro and to occupay. They had no "Nation-Building" plan in place. That's why no rebuilding was done.

They admitted that!

They're using the bombings as a distraction from their failure and as an excuse to remain in Iraq. To continue "the rebuilding efforts," to "separate the Sunni's & Shia," "If we left, there would be a bloodbath."

They said the same b/s about Vietnam, and it didn't happen.
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
That is the most accurate 4 sentence response I have seen on this forum

That's a lie!

It's propaganda!

It's biased and anti-Iraqi/Islamic!

You lack credibility!
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
If I ever need a good source of Al-Qaeda propoganda I will be sure to come to you.

A much better source would be the CIA :thumbs_up
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I am brainwashed

This is the first thing out of your mouth that I agree with. Keep up the good work...
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
...I think your post...is more like a direct reflection of yourself and your ignorance as to how the world works.

If you would just look at things from two sides and try to see what is really happening, rather than what you wish was happening, I think your arguments could not only be more productive but more reliable and true as well.

Your statement fits you hand-in-glove.

I sincerely hope that you apply the advice you give to others, to YOURSELF...
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
That being said, U.S. soldiers are far more sensitive to the needs of civilians than probably any occupying force in history.
Are you really sure about that. Is there proof?

What about the Abu Ghraib abuses (Just one example).

That is one reason the U.S. military "hates" the enemy in Iraq so much, because they brutally kill civilians right and left.
What about the massive amounts of Iraqi civilians the US has killed?

These are serious questions. I'm not out to bust your chops...
Reply

Keltoi
05-15-2007, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
Are you really sure about that. Is there proof?

What about the Abu Ghraib abuses (Just one example).


What about the massive amounts of Iraqi civilians the US has killed?

These are serious questions. I'm not out to bust your chops...
As for Abu Ghraib, it was a vile abuse, regardless of what the Iraqi men were guilty of. However, the soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison are hardly representative of U.S. military conduct as a whole.

As for civilians, the U.S. is either directly or indirectly responible for many civilian deaths. Either through miscommunicated bombing, collateral damage during battles, and the cases of soldier misconduct. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of U.S. soldiers have no desire to see civilians killed.

This is in direct contrast to the enemy there, who routinely tortures and beheads civilians, dumping their bodies all over Baghdad and the rest of the country. People have to go out in the morning and look in the rivers to find other headless corpses floating in it. This is the kind of savagery that takes most people, who aren't even over there, for a loop. Imagine the soldiers and others over there who see what the insurgency is doing to the people of Iraq. Yes, the U.S. shares a large part of the blame for the state of affairs over there, but the large majority of civilian deaths in the past 3 years have not been caused by U.S. action.
Reply

islamirama
05-15-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
As for Abu Ghraib, it was a vile abuse, regardless of what the Iraqi men were guilty of. However, the soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison are hardly representative of U.S. military conduct as a whole.

As for civilians, the U.S. is either directly or indirectly responible for many civilian deaths. Either through miscommunicated bombing, collateral damage during battles, and the cases of soldier misconduct. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of U.S. soldiers have no desire to see civilians killed.

This is in direct contrast to the enemy there, who routinely tortures and beheads civilians, dumping their bodies all over Baghdad and the rest of the country. People have to go out in the morning and look in the rivers to find other headless corpses floating in it. This is the kind of savagery that takes most people, who aren't even over there, for a loop. Imagine the soldiers and others over there who see what the insurgency is doing to the people of Iraq. Yes, the U.S. shares a large part of the blame for the state of affairs over there, but the large majority of civilian deaths in the past 3 years have not been caused by U.S. action.
I suppose all these are "collatoral damage" and mishaps where the occupying troops are innocent?


Crimes and Massacre in Iraq

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqfreedom/index.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/images/democracy/index.htm

http://www.iraqvictims.com/

http://www.albasrah.net/images/war_crimes/index.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/kelly/Kelly.htm

http://www.marchforjustice.com/3.22.php

http://www.albasrah.net/images/deserve/index.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/images/moqawama/index1.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/images/falluja/index.htm


http://www.albasrah.net/images/wedding/index.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-resist/index.htm

http://images.abolkhaseb.net/mahdi-resistance/index.htm


http://images.abolkhaseb.net/3loj/index.htm

http://images.abolkhaseb.net/usa-did-it/index.htm

http://images.abolkhaseb.net/usa-did-it/index.htm


http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow1.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/warcrimes.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/articles_E.htm


http://www.albasrah.net/maqalat/english/gi-special.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/media/multimedia.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/selected_sites.htm

http://www.albasrah.net/index1.html
Reply

islamirama
05-15-2007, 06:23 PM
Here's your contractors and civilians in iraq, how much are they rebuilding ?

Contractors killing innocent people in Iraq
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2860214&q=irak
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is in direct contrast to the enemy there, who routinely tortures and beheads civilians, dumping their bodies all over Baghdad and the rest of the country. People have to go out in the morning and look in the rivers to find other headless corpses floating in it. This is the kind of savagery that takes most people, who aren't even over there, for a loop. Imagine the soldiers and others over there who see what the insurgency is doing to the people of Iraq.

I think you should differentiate between the parties involved in that bloodbath and not group them all under the insurgency umbrella.

The Muslim Factor:

1. The real Iraqi Resistance: I haven't heard of them targeting Iraqi civilians with car bombs, nor beaheadings.

Their MO against the occupation is direct battles, and car bombings against occupation and Iraqi government troops (which they see as being puppets & collaborators).

They have also entered into a direct alliance with the Sunni tribes of Al Anbar province (in Western Iraq, next to the Syrian border) to battle Al Qaeda/Iraq.

In the past 3 months, they have managed to severely disrupt AQ/Iraq. Which is a feat the US was unable to accomplish in the past 3 years.

And indirectly, they're in a so-called temporary alliance with the US against AQ/Iraq (former Ambassador Khalilizad was in direct negotiations for the past year, with the Sunni Resistance).

2. The Al Qaeda/Iraq: they're involved in targeting civilians with car bombings and some beheadings. They are also targeting the real Iraqi Resistance, the Sunni politicians in the Iraqi government and the Shia.

3. The death squads, who are involved in sectarian cleansing and torture and mutilation, in Baghdad.

4. A splinter group from the real Iraqi Insurgency has taken up the task in defending the Sunni neighborhoods of Iraq. and are involved in reprisal killings and some sectarian cleansing of the Shia. (They don't torture or mutilate, Just a bullet in the head).

The Occupation Forces:

1. The CIA/U.S. special forces/SAS and "Contractors/Mercenaries" are involved in the killings.

2. The current "Surge" is taking a toll on Iraqi civilians and housing. There has been an increased use of artillery and arial bombardment, in Baghdad. So you can't discount the continuation of civilian death at the hands of the US, also.

The Iranians (Revolutionary Guards/Intelligence)


Others:

a) The Israeli Mossad/Also, there are Israeli Mossad & Commando's training the Kurds in the north, and are actively aiding the US/Uk in infiltrating special forces into Iran.

So, it wouldn't be hard to deduce that they're operating in Baghdad, also).

b) various Arab intelligence services, in the new US/Sunni Arab states alliance (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Israel & the US) against the Shia bloc (Iran, Iraqi Shia, the Syrian government)
-------

This doesn't include the groups in the so-called Iraqi-Kurdistan or Southern Iraq, around Basra, where the Shia Militia's dominate, but there is a newly formed alliance between Sunni & Shia tribes, resisting the British occupation troops, in the south...
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 06:38 PM
zman

I am not sure if you were just trying to reach your 50 posts or if you actually meant something in any of your posts, however the constant mockery, twists on words, and basic waste of thread space is redundant and boring. Perhaps if you could come with some facts or really any sort of intelligent reponses I will take a little more time to respond to your posts. Otherwise I will write you off as an immature young buck who took the day off school to try and get an otherwise productive thread closed. :D
Reply

islamirama
05-15-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
zman

I am not sure if you were just trying to reach your 50 posts or if you actually meant something in any of your posts, however the constant mockery, twists on words, and basic waste of thread space is redundant and boring. Perhaps if you could come with some facts or really any sort of intelligent reponses I will take a little more time to respond to your posts. Otherwise I will write you off as an immature young buck who took the day off school to try and get an otherwise productive thread closed. :D
so typical of you. any comments on this or will you deny this like that of your pretty little sodliers?

Contractors killing innocent people in Iraq
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2860214&q=irak
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
so typical of you. any comments on this or will you deny this like that of your pretty little sodliers?

Contractors killing innocent people in Iraq
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...2860214&q=irak
are you refering to the infowars movie on that page??
Reply

islamirama
05-15-2007, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
are you refering to the infowars movie on that page??
movie? whose talking about a movie? it's a video clip taken by the contractors as they are driving on the road, having some fun shooting at civilians

they must've removed the video, how typical...


here's some new ones

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o0HFkLoJm7Q

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2nNSovh3hYs
Reply

Zman
05-15-2007, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
however the constant mockery, twists on words, and basic waste of thread space is redundant and boring. Perhaps if you could come with some facts or really any sort of intelligent reponses I will take a little more time to respond to your posts. Otherwise I will write you off as an immature young buck who took the day off school to try and get an otherwise productive thread closed. :D

Like I said before TAFFI, practice what you preach to others. Because, you Just keep coming off as a rude hypocrite...
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
movie? whose talking about a movie? it's a video clip taken by the contractors as they are driving on the road, having some fun shooting at civilians

they must've removed the video, how typical...


here's some new ones

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o0HFkLoJm7Q

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2nNSovh3hYs
DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO COMMENT ON THIS?!?!? LOL
It is laughable to say the least, you have an unidentified person in an old ratty looking car (judging only from the rear windshield which is all that is shown) supposedly shooting at people going down the road. If someone labeled this "Insurgency shooting at random people" would you believe it? How about "Bugs Bunny randomly shooting at people", would you believe that too? Come on man get a grip here you are really stretching with this blatant propaganda
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

Like I said before TAFFI, practice what you preach to others. Because, you Just keep coming off as a rude hypocrite...
really, how is that? (by the way this thread is about Al-Qaeda not me, so please stay on topic and PM me if you are concerned about my personal opinions or reactions in a thread)
Reply

islamirama
05-15-2007, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO COMMENT ON THIS?!?!? LOL
It is laughable to say the least, you have an unidentified person in an old ratty looking car (judging only from the rear windshield which is all that is shown) supposedly shooting at people going down the road. If someone labeled this "Insurgency shooting at random people" would you believe it? How about "Bugs Bunny randomly shooting at people", would you believe that too? Come on man get a grip here you are really stretching with this blatant propaganda
yea thats why they have american music on. And like insurgents feel the need to drive on road so openly and shooting cars. Btw, didn't you see one car smach into another and people run out of the car,and didn't you see bullets kickign of the dirt on the road like rain, and yet you say "supposedly" shot? keep talking, you only are proving to us how much you support injustice, you're doing great service being a representative of your average american joe :thumbs_up
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
yea thats why they have american music on. And like insurgents feel the need to drive on road so openly and shooting cars. Btw, didn't you see one car smach into another and people run out of the car,and didn't you see bullets kickign of the dirt on the road like rain, and yet you say "supposedly" shot? keep talking, you only are proving to us how much you support injustice, you're doing great service being a representative of your average american joe :thumbs_up
I actually didnt see bullets throwing dust and just because a car crashed into another has nothing to do with these people shooting. As far as the american music, that is the funny thing about the whole movie, the music is louder and clearer than the guns shots....lol.. anyone with half a brain can tell that why that was taped over the video, not only that but take a look at the barrel of that gun, that is the tip of an AK 47 rifle, americans do not use that gun, so what does that tell you
Reply

Keltoi
05-15-2007, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I actually didnt see bullets throwing dust and just because a car crashed into another has nothing to do with these people shooting. As far as the american music, that is the funny thing about the whole movie, the music is louder and clearer than the guns shots....lol.. anyone with half a brain can tell that why that was taped over the video, not only that but take a look at the barrel of that gun, that is the tip of an AK 47 rifle, americans do not use that gun, so what does that tell you
Contractors don't use Ak-47s either, mainy more compact urban assault rifles, or SMG's.
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MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Contractors don't use Ak-47s either, mainy more compact urban assault rifles, or SMG's.
exactly, or the m-14 or a variety of other but the ak is out of date is is only used by one group in Iraq, and they arent wearing tan camo uniforms
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Keltoi
05-15-2007, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
exactly, or the m-14 or a variety of other but the ak is out of date is is only used by one group in Iraq, and they arent wearing tan camo uniforms
Plus, the job of a security contractor is to not bring attention to yourself.
Reply

islamirama
05-15-2007, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I actually didnt see bullets throwing dust and just because a car crashed into another has nothing to do with these people shooting. As far as the american music, that is the funny thing about the whole movie, the music is louder and clearer than the guns shots....lol.. anyone with half a brain can tell that why that was taped over the video, not only that but take a look at the barrel of that gun, that is the tip of an AK 47 rifle, americans do not use that gun, so what does that tell you
I said contractors not US soldiers, and if you can't see the bullets bouncing of the ground then you need help. but then again i don't expect much from you anyways...

maybe you can find some way to dispute this as well

http://www.youtube.com/v/uXzpUawlEGQ

And you wonder why iraqis and Muslim world hates US, it's troops and leaders....
Reply

MTAFFI
05-15-2007, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
I said contractors not US soldiers, and if you can't see the bullets bouncing of the ground then you need help. but then again i don't expect much from you anyways...

maybe you can find some way to dispute this as well

http://www.youtube.com/v/uXzpUawlEGQ

And you wonder why iraqis and Muslim world hates US, it's troops and leaders....
CONTRACTORS DONT USE AK-47 EITHER SO THE FIRST VIDEO IS DEBUNKED

as for this video with the water bottle, it is utterly disgusting. Again I will tell you that I have no doubt that there are bad things happening on both sides of this war. It is a shame that these soldiers did this and it saddens me for those innocent children.

Now lets see you post a video of what the insurgents do to these children and women. Just so that way we can all see that you arent completely one sided and you sure seem to be. This is my whole point, you have spent hours here trying to convince me that US soldiers are the problem and the one thing you bring is kids chasing a water bottle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2QSoJpnpUs
there is a video of terrorist video taping one of their suicide bombers

your turn, I am sure we could do this all day, but I can tell you now I will find more videos like this that are far more deadly to the common civilian that what you will find on the americans. And dont bother responding with another video, because truly it will be redundant
Reply

Gangster No.1
05-18-2007, 10:02 AM
iTS GOOD THAT aL-qAIDA ARE IN Iraq!

I dont see many muslims sacrificing themsleves to help the muslims being toutred in Iraq by the Americans & Alies.

No 1 is standing up to the americans,

May Allah reward them all, and inshallah we join them.

Allah hu akbar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-18-2007, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
CONTRACTORS DONT USE AK-47 EITHER SO THE FIRST VIDEO IS DEBUNKED.
Wrong. The word "contractors" is an umbrella term that includes private "security" personnel and "bounty hunters"... and yes, they cause more damage than soldiers... mainly because they aren't regulated by governments. I ran across this issue when I was researching the dispute over the number of fatalities. The insurgent groups accused the government of lying about the number of soldiers killed in Iraq. As it turned out, the military didn't lie about the numbers. They simply didn't include the number of 'hired guns' because those are not military personnel even if their job description was roughly the same.

There was an interesting expose on this subject which contained interviews with former military personnel who didn't renew their military contracts and went private because the pay was better.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Wrong. The word "contractors" is an umbrella term that includes private "security" personnel... and yes, they cause more damage than soldiers... mainly because they aren't regulated by governments. I ran across this issue when I was researching the dispute over the number of fatalities. The insurgent groups accused the government of lying about the number of soldiers killed in Iraq. As it turned out, the military didn't lie about the numbers. They simply didn't include the number of 'hired guns' because those are not military personnel even if their job description was roughly the same.

There was an interesting expose on this subject which contained interviews with former military personnel who didn't renew their military contracts and went private because the pay was better.

The Ninth Scribe
Why should the U.S. include contractor death statistics as their own? Most of these contractors aren't even American, although quite a few are. The job of the contractors are to protect VIPs and protect convoys mainly, although they do some other stuff if the money is right. I know that the largest American security contracting company is called Blackwood..or Blackwater, and they do alot of convoy stuff. However, the company tells them to not get involved in the "war". Like that is even possible. Most U.S. soldiers don't like them on the battlefield because it requires U.S. soldiers to bail them out of tight situations often times, but there have been episodes when contractors and U.S. soldiers fought fairly well together when necessary.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-18-2007, 02:16 PM
may Allah give victory to those who strive for Allah sincerely for his sake most.

Ameen
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-18-2007, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gangster No.1
iTS GOOD THAT aL-qAIDA ARE IN Iraq!

I dont see many muslims sacrificing themsleves to help the muslims being toutred in Iraq by the Americans & Alies.

No 1 is standing up to the americans,

May Allah reward them all, and inshallah we join them.

Allah hu akbar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REEEESPECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALLAHU AKBAR :D
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 02:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
may Allah give victory to those who strive for it sincerely for his sake most.

Ameen
Is that your way of saying you hope the U.S. kills more Al-Qaeda members? I agree.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-18-2007, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Why should the U.S. include contractor death statistics as their own? Most of these contractors aren't even American, although quite a few are. The job of the contractors are to protect VIPs and protect convoys mainly, although they do some other stuff if the money is right. I know that the largest American security contracting company is called Blackwood..or Blackwater, and they do alot of convoy stuff. However, the company tells them to not get involved in the "war". Like that is even possible. Most U.S. soldiers don't like them on the battlefield because it requires U.S. soldiers to bail them out of tight situations often times, but there have been episodes when contractors and U.S. soldiers fought fairly well together when necessary.
Hi Keltoi,

I never suggested the military should include them. Al Qaeda in Iraq and several other groups made the accusation that the U.S. military was concealing deaths, which prompted the re-count. It was all a misunderstanding and I was merely explaining why the numbers differed. The U.S. military is peeved by the private security firms, but only because they swipe their soldiers:

http://www.workforce.com/section/00/.../59/index.html

But to assume that private contractors don't carry guns - well, that was just plain laughable. And yes, some of them are bounty hunters.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=10288

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Hi Keltoi,

I never suggested the military should include them. Al Qaeda in Iraq and several other groups made the accusation that the U.S. military was concealing deaths, which prompted the re-count. It was all a misunderstanding and I was merely explaining why the numbers differed. The U.S. military is peeved by the private security firms, but only because they swipe their soldiers:

http://www.workforce.com/section/00/.../59/index.html

But to assume that private contractors don't carry guns - well, that was just plain laughable. And yes, some of them are bounty hunters.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=10288

The Ninth Scribe
Who said the contractors didn't carry guns? The point was that contractors don't use AK-47's.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Who said the contractors didn't carry guns? The point was that contractors don't use AK-47's.
^^ that is why i didnt even bother responding, 9th scribe says wrong while she quotes me saying that they dont carry ak-47's, and then goes on a tangent that didnt even relate, i figured it was to obvious for me to even bother with a response. Bottom line, THEY DONT CARRY THAT KIND OF GUN AND NEITHER DOES OUR MILITARY PERSONNEL, SO WHO WAS IN THAT VIDEO SHOOTING? I CAN TELL YOU IT WASNT AMERICANS
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-18-2007, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
THEY DONT CARRY THAT KIND OF GUN AND NEITHER DOES OUR MILITARY PERSONNEL, SO WHO WAS IN THAT VIDEO SHOOTING? I CAN TELL YOU IT WASNT AMERICANS
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Sergeant Miller and Tech. Sgt. Shawn Carter from Offutt, established a 10-day military police training academy covering entry control and tactical control points; AK-47 weapons training; tower observation procedures; squad-level tactics; and personnel, vehicle and area searches. They expect to put 30 students through the training at a time.

http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf

Weapons provided by the Department of Defense Using the Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund:

Of the nineteen contracts, two accounted for 67% of the weapons cost and adding a third contract, these three accounted for 73% of weapons cost. The weapons purchased with IRRF {Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund} funds were small arms. Typical small arms include 9mm semi automatic pistols and 7.62 mm assault rifles as well as .50 caliber heavy machine guns and rocket propelled grenade launchers (RPG-7). The single largest group of weapons by type were Avtomat Kalashnikov AK-47 and Glock 9 mm semi-automatic pistols...

http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf

Question: Do you guys actually read these reports or do you just skim the titles?

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Sergeant Miller and Tech. Sgt. Shawn Carter from Offutt, established a 10-day military police training academy covering entry control and tactical control points; AK-47 weapons training; tower observation procedures; squad-level tactics; and personnel, vehicle and area searches. They expect to put 30 students through the training at a time.

http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf

Weapons provided by the Department of Defense Using the Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund:

Of the nineteen contracts, two accounted for 67% of the weapons cost and adding a third contract, these three accounted for 73% of weapons cost. The weapons purchased with IRRF {Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund} funds were small arms. Typical small arms include 9mm semi automatic pistols and 7.62 mm assault rifles as well as .50 caliber heavy machine guns and rocket propelled grenade launchers (RPG-7). The single largest group of weapons by type were Avtomat Kalashnikov AK-47 and Glock 9 mm semi-automatic pistols...

http://www.sigir.mil/reports/pdf/audits/06-033.pdf

Question: Do you guys actually read these reports or do you just skim the titles?

The Ninth Scribe
hahahahahhaha yourself

these weapons are provided to the Iraqi security forces not the american troops, do you read these reports or just skim through teh first 10 lines? So again I will say, the US troops do not use the AK-47 assault rifle
Reply

Talha777
05-18-2007, 05:36 PM
An al-Qaida-linked group claimed responsibility Tuesday for double suicide truck bombings that killed nine U.S. paratroopers in the worst attack on American ground forces in Iraq in more than a year, saying it sent "two knights" for the attack.
This is a war, and US Paratroopers are enemy combatants. So what's the big deal?
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
This is a war, and US Paratroopers are enemy combatants. So what's the big deal?

who said that was a big deal?
Reply

Talha777
05-18-2007, 05:39 PM
The American media.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
The American media.
no different than when they say

Airstrikes targeted a convoy of suspected Taliban militants who had left a meeting in western Afghanistan, killing 14 and wounding 10, a provincial governor said Friday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/...fghan_violence

it doesnt mean that it is a big deal it just means that people on the US's side were killed, the enemy is reported the same way, except we cheer with each of their deaths
Reply

Zman
05-18-2007, 06:42 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Some Of The Violence In Iraq (Car Bombings & Sectarianism) Is Instigated By The Pentagon's Mercenaries (AKA: "Civilian Contractors)

(SOME OF) THE PENTAGON'S HIRED MERCENARIES ARE REMOTELY DETONATING CAR BOMBS AND ASSASSINATING SUNNIS AND SHIAS - TO PROVOKE A U.S./ISRAELI PLANNED CIVIL WAR THAT WILL DISMEMBER IRAQ?

1. SHADOW COMPANY (about a former "security contractor's" book)...

http://www.americanprogress.org/proj...w_company.html

Excerpt only...

According to Robert Young Pelton's upcoming book Licensed To Kill: Hired Guns in the War on Terror, there are now over 70,000 armed men working as security contractors in Iraq.
(Book also reviewed by Amazon)...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-.../AQF3JA5OEV4XR

----------------

2. The above revelation by Pelton leads to this VALID QUESTION:

Have any of the Pentagon's 70,000 (Civilian) "Hired Guns" (AND Israeli IDF assassination experts) been "provoking violence" in Iraq (disguised as Iraqis), remotely detonating car bombs and indiscriminately murdering both Shias and Sunnis - to create a U.S./Israeli planned civil war that dismembers the nation?

LA Times' William Arkin wrote that "Provoking Violence" globally has been the Cheney/Rumsfeld plan since 2002 as described in the following...

HAVE RUMSFELD (AND CHENEY) 'COMBATTED TERRORISM' BY CAUSING IT?

http://www.indymedia.org/en/2006/05/839272.shtml

Excerpt only...

IN 2002, RUMSFELD ORDERED GLOBAL COVERT VIOLENCE BY U.S. "SPECIAL FORCES" - TO "PROVOKE" VOLENCE! "to 'combat terrorism' by causing it!"

(Open and read the following article)...

3. THE PROVOCATEUR STATE: IS THE CIA BEHIND THE IRAQI "INSURGENTS" -- AND GLOBAL TERRORISM?

May 10, 2005

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR505A.html

Excerpts only...

According to Los Angeles Times military analyst William Arkin, writing Oct. 27, 2002, Rumsfeld set out to create a secret army, "a super-Intelligence Support Activity" network that would "bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception," to stir the pot of spiraling global violence.

According to a classified document prepared for Rumsfeld by his Defense Science Board, the new organization--the "Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG)"--would actually carry out secret missions designed to provoke terrorist groups into committing violent acts. The P2OG, a 100-member, so-called "counter-terrorist" organization with a $100-million-a-year budget, would ostensibly target "terrorist leaders," but according to P2OG documents procured by Arkin, would in fact carry out missions designed to "stimulate reactions" among "terrorist groups"--which, according to the Defense Secretary's logic, would subsequently expose them to "counter-attack" by the good guys. In other words, the plan is to execute secret military operations (assassinations, sabotage, "deception") which would intentionally result in terrorist attacks on innocent people, including Americans--essentially, to "combat terrorism" by causing it!

----------------

Reported earlier, Israeli IDF/Mossad have been training (and arming) the Kurds, especially for terror raids inside Iran. But ignored by almost all American Jounalists: Rumsfeld and his boss Cheney, hired Israeli IDF soldiers to train their special Iraq "hunter-killer" teams...

5. ISRAEL TRAINS US ASSASSINATION SQUADS IN IRAQ - Julian Borger in Washington

Dec. 9, 2003

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...103550,00.html

Excerpts only...

Israeli advisers are helping train US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations in Iraq, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders, US intelligence and military sources said yesterday.

US forces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops.

"This is basically an assassination programme. That is what is being conceptualised here. This is a hunter-killer team," said a former senior US intelligence official, who added that he feared the new tactics and enhanced cooperation with Israel would only inflame a volatile situation in the Middle East.
"It is bonkers, insane. Here we are - we're already being compared to Sharon in the Arab world, and we've just confirmed it by bringing in the Israelis and setting up assassination teams."

----------------

Following are additional articles supporting the suspicion that Bush appointed "NeoCon" civilians running our Pentagon may be directing FALSE FLAG "terror" attacks in Iraq. Read and judge for yourself...

6. 'UNKNOWN AMERICANS' ARE PROVOKING CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ -

By Robert Fisk
The Independent, UK
04/29/06

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12885.htm

Excerpts only...

The Americans, my interlocutor suspected, are trying to provoke an Iraqi civil war so that Sunni Muslim insurgents spend their energies killing their Shia co-religionists rather than soldiers of the Western occupation forces... "One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up."

Impossible, I think to myself. But then I remember how many times Iraqis in Baghdad have told me similar stories.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

7. MEDIA DISINFORMATION AND THE NATURE OF THE IRAQI RESISTANCE

By Ghali Hassan
May 29, 2005

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HAS505C.html

Excerpts only...

In this regard, the creation, arming and financing of 'ethnic militias' and death squads by U.S. forces is designed to create ethnic divisions and provoke sectarian violence among Iraqis.
These US sponsored militia groups are:

The Kurdish Peshmerga whose leaders supported the U.S. invasion and Occupation.
The Iranian-trained Badr Brigades, The armed wing of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) led by Ibrahim Al-Jaaferi of the Da&#237;wa party, The INC militia of Ahmed Chalabi, and the INA militia of Iyad Allawi.
All these groups are involved in terrorist activities against Iraqi civilians. The latter three groups, entered Iraq on the back of U.S. tanks, without valid Iraqi citizenship papers.

The Kurdish militia are the Occupation's most loyal collaborators, receiving arms and money from their masters. Together with the occupying forces, they are responsible for wide scale atrocities in Iraqi towns and villages.

Together with the Peshmerga, Israeli Mossad agents and U.S. forces, the militia groups went on systematic killings of thousands of prominent Iraqi academics, scientists, politicians and religious leaders. They also participated in the atrocity and total destruction of Fallujah, which is depicted as "the storming of Fallujah" in most mainstream media. The city was completely destroyed and still a "no go zone" for Iraqis. Other Iraqi towns and cities have not escaped this deliberate destruction.

--------------------

8. SHIA CLERIC MUQTADA AL-SADR BLAMES US FORCES FOR SUNDAY MASSACRE

March 13, 06

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1448002.cms

Excerpts only...

BAGHDAD: Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ...said terrorists carried out the bombing "under US air cover" arguing that the halt of telephone connections before the incident was proof of the cooperation between the terrorists and the occupier to "destabilise the security of this Shia region."

"I find Sunnis and Shias innocent of this act," he added.

-----------------------
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:/[i]Peace To All

Some Of The Violence In Iraq (Car Bombings & Sectarianism) Is Instigated By The Pentagon's Mercenaries (AKA: "Civilian Contractors)

...
Why continue to blame everyone else, even if this was at all true... which i dont believe it is... oh just forget it, it is hopeless
Reply

Zman
05-18-2007, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Why continue to blame everyone else, even if this was at all true...

So, if it "was true," we shouldn't even complain, blame, seek Justice and prosecution for these atrocities & war crimes?

We should continue to blame "others," due to the very fact that they are still murdering civilians in the dozens, every day.

We should continue to remind the world, even if these atrocities end, lest the world forget what transpired.

We were lied to and manipulated, and are complicit in the actions of our government.

This isn't an isolated incident. It has happened before.

Check out what we did in El Salvador. We created death squads. And the man who spawned the "Salvador Option," is none other than Negroponte.

Also, check out the "Phoenix Program," which was carried out during the Vienam War.

I read an article by a former CIA Angola Station Chief, he said that since the CIA's inception, it was responsible for the deaths of around 6 million people in the Third World.

Check out "Operation Gladio," that took place in Europe. Where several goverments conspired and initiated car bombings and blamed it on left wing organizations.

Check out how British Security was responsible for several car bombings in Northern Ireland. They even helped the IRA produce explosives.

Check out "Operation Northwoods," during the time of JFK, where the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recommended setting of bombs on American soil, blowing up a Jet liner, and blaming it on Fidel Castro, which would have been an excuse to invade Cuba.

Check out how the CIA aided Chile in detonating the Car of Salvador Allende, in Wasington, D.C.

Check out how the CIA had Posada blow up an air plane and bomb targets in Cuba and Venezuela.

Check out how we have Vietnamese terrorists in California, that plot bomb attacks inside Vietnam.

Check out what really occurred in the Gulf of Tonkin (declassified documents at the National Security Archive).

Check out how Kissinger/Ford/UK aided Suharto in invading, killing and annexing East Timor. US and UK vessels rode along shot-gun and protected the Indonesian ivasion force, and supplied it with miitary equipment and intelligence.

These are Just a few examples...
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

So, if it "was true," we shouldn't even complain, blame, seek Justice and prosecution for these atrocities & war crimes?

We should continue to blame "others," due to the very fact that they are still murdering civilians in the dozens, every day.

These are Just a few examples...
Please provide proof of your claims, also what does all this have to do with Al-Qaida you again try to make them faultless. I dont claim the US isnt without fault, I am saying that the majority of the fault and problems are from the US. You can give this and that but the fact remains
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-19-2007, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
hahahahahhaha yourself

these weapons are provided to the Iraqi security forces not the american troops, do you read these reports or just skim through teh first 10 lines? So again I will say, the US troops do not use the AK-47 assault rifle
These weapons were made available to the so-called civilian "contractors" who are otherwise identified as 'hired guns'. The U.S. government brokered the deal.

Definition: Your complaint against the video which started this discussion has absolutely no realistic ground, other than in your imagination. American contractors do use this weapon. But if you like, I can show you more detailed reports. I have what seems to be an endless supply of them.

I have been studying the weapons sales to the Middle East for the past month. I'm not pleased by what I have seen so far.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
05-19-2007, 01:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
These weapons were made available to the so-called civilian "contractors" who are otherwise identified as 'hired guns'. The U.S. government simply brokered the deal.

Definition: Your complaint against the video which started this discussion has absolutely no realistic ground, other than in your imagination. American contractors do use this weapon. But if you like, I can show you more detailed reports. I have what seems to be n endless supply of them.

I have been studying the weapons sales to the Middle East for the past month. I'm not pleased by what I have seen so far.

The Ninth Scribe

Look scribe, you can say what you wish but the fact is US contractor, troops, or otherwise do not use these guns. the AK-47 is considered an obsolete weapon to our military and our "hired guns" They are onyl effective at a short range, and they are out dated compared to the weapons that have been specifically designed for our troops in iraq. I am sorry you can except when you are wrong, but I have a vast amount of knowledge regarding the weapons used in Iraq, and there is no doubt you are wrong. The AK 47 may be sold to iraqis and their security forces, but it is not used by the US. The gun used in that video, is either an ak 47 or an AR 15 neither of which is used by the US. So you are wrong. post all the facts you wish about arms sales to the iraqis, but it doesnt change the fact that that video was posted to defame the US troops by showing either terrorist actions or the actions of someone who bought an ak or ar from the US or from the black market. You are wrong 9th scribe, and I guarantee you that you will lose (if you havent already) this argument. It is indisputable that those were not american troops or contractors, when looking at the transportation and the weapon.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-19-2007, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Look scribe, you can say what you wish but the fact is US contractor, troops, or otherwise do not use these guns.
You have absolutely no proof for this statement other than your word, which means nothing when compared to the word of experienced military personnel, the Department of Defense and several U.S. generals. If you want to sound off, that's fine, but you'll never convince anyone that you're statements have any real merit without providing proof.

Fact: The DoD did provide and distribute these "obsolute" weapons to several private "contractor" firms and they did train them in their correct use. So how the h-ll can you sit there with a straight face and tell this forum that Americans don't use these weapons - when the military was the one issuing them out to the companies who hired the American contractors?

The senior military officials have admitted to this, so your glorious say-so on this issue... amounts to diddly. You're in way over your head.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
05-19-2007, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
You have absolutely no proof for this statement other than your word, which means nothing when compared to the word of experienced military personnel, the Department of Defense and several U.S. generals. If you want to sound off, that's fine, but you'll never convince anyone that you're statements have any real merit without providing proof.

Fact: The DoD did provide and distribute these "obsolute" weapons to several private "contractor" firms and they did train them in their correct use. So how the h-ll can you sit there with a straight face and tell this forum that Americans don't use these weapons - when the military was the one issuing them out to the companies who hired the American contractors?

The senior military officials have admitted to this, so your glorious say-so on this issue... amounts to diddly. You're in way over your head.

The Ninth Scribe

really it is funny how ill informed you actually are, in these regards. You are the one claiming the US uses these weapons, you provide the proof, you wont find it because they arent used by the US, but please do waste as much of your time as you wish. I dont care if anyone is convinced about the US not using these weapons, anyone who knows anything about the DOD and the weapons used in Iraq already know that the Ak is simply an outdated weapon, and that is why it is given to the Iraqis, obviously we wont give them our most advanced weapons to use against us. Tell me, why would the US use this gun considering the fact that we have far more accurate weapons, from up close and from a distance, at our disposal? Why would we use these weapons? They are not near as effective nor do they have the same killing power as say the M16A4 which is used in combat situations or the m40a3 which is a sniper rifle commonly used in Iraq. You are claiming the US uses the AK 47, you are wrong, please provide a single article , statement or otherwise, showing US troops or contractors using this weapon. This weapon is used in bank robberies for its aggressive look and for scaring the living crap out of innocent Iraqis but not by US forces, it is out dated and there would be no reason for it use. (lets not forget the US has the largest military budget in the world, why would we buy the crap weapons for our troops)

Anyways lets see some proof, or at the very least another amusing post that clearly shows your ignorance to the matter.

The weapon used in the video was and Ak or AR, it was not Us troops or personel, it was either Iraqi security forces or terrorist or some random maniac
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 05:54 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

British Intelligence In Bed With Al Qaeda

The following report deals with a classic example of a "Terrorism By Proxy" and "False Flag Operation," where Britain's MI6 colluded with a Libyan Al Qaeda Cell, in an attempt to assassinate Libyan President Mumar Al Qadafi.

It also sheds light on how Britain and America blocked earlier attempts to arrest Osama Bin Laden.

In a report titled: "MI6 'Halted Bid To Arrest Bin Laden,'"

Martin Bright (Home Affairs Editor) reported on Sunday November 10, 2002, for the Guardian/Observer that:


"British intelligence paid large sums of money to an al-Qaeda cell in Libya in a doomed attempt to assassinate Colonel Gadaffi in 1996 and thwarted early attempts to bring Osama bin Laden to justice.

The latest claims of MI6 involvement with Libya's fearsome Islamic Fighting Group, which is connected to one of bin Laden's trusted lieutenants, will be embarrassing to the Government...

The allegations have emerged in the book Forbidden Truth , published in America by two French intelligence experts who reveal that the first Interpol arrest warrant for bin Laden was issued by Libya in March 1998.

According to journalist Guillaume Dasqui&#233; and Jean-Charles Brisard, an adviser to French President Jacques Chirac, British and US intelligence agencies buried the fact that the arrest warrant had come from Libya and played down the threat.

Five months after the warrant was issued, al-Qaeda killed more than 200 people in the truck bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

The arrest warrant was issued in connection with the murder in March 1994 of two German anti-terrorism agents, Silvan and Vera Becker, who were in charge of missions in Africa.

According to the book, the resistance of Western intelligence agencies to the Libyan concerns can be explained by MI6's involvement with the al-Qaeda coup plot.

The Libyan al-Qaeda cell included Anas al-Liby, who remains on the US government's most wanted list with a reward of $25 million for his capture. He is wanted for his involvement in the African embassy bombings. Al-Liby was with bin Laden in Sudan before the al-Qaeda leader returned to Afghanistan in 1996.

Astonishingly, despite suspicions that he was a high-level al-Qaeda operative, al-Liby was given political asylum in Britain and lived in Manchester until May of 2000...

The Observer has been restrained from printing details of the allegations during the course of the trial of David Shayler, who was last week sentenced to six months in prison for disclosing documents obtained during his time as an MI5 officer.

He was not allowed to argue that he made the revelations in the public interest.

During his closing speech last week, Shayler repeated claims that he was gagged from talking about 'a crime so heinous' that he had no choice but to go to the press with his story.

The 'crime' was the alleged MI6 involvement in the plot to assassinate Gadaffi, hatched in late 1995.

Shayler claims he was first briefed about the plot during formal meetings with colleagues from the foreign intelligence service MI6 when he was working on MI5's Libya desk in the mid-Nineties.

The Observer can today reveal that the MI6 officers involved in the alleged plot were Richard Bartlett, who has previously only been known under the codename PT16 and had overall responsibility for the operation; and David Watson, codename PT16B. As Shayler's opposite number in MI6, Watson was responsible for running a Libyan agent, 'Tunworth', who was was providing information from within the cell. According to Shayler, MI6 passed &#163;100,000 to the al-Qaeda plotters.

...The assassination attempt on Gadaffi was planned for early 1996 in the Libyan coastal city of Sirte. It is thought that an operation by the Islamic Fighting Group in the city was foiled in March 1996 and in the gun battle that followed several militants were killed. In 1998, the Libyans released TV footage of a 1996 grenade attack on Gadaffi that they claimed had been carried out by a British agent.

...Shayler claims Watson later boasted that there had been MI6 involvement in the Libyan operation. Shayler was also planning to call a witness to the conversation in which the MI6 man claimed British intelligence had been involved in the coup attempt.

According to Shayler, the woman, an Arabic translator at MI5, was also shocked by Watson's admission that money had been paid to the plotters.

...It is believed Watson and Bartlett have been relocated and given new identities as a result of Shayler's revelations. MI6 is now said to be resigned to their names being made public and it is believed to have put further measures in place to ensure their safety.

A top-secret MI6 document leaked on the internet two years ago confirmed British intelligence knew of a plot in 1995, which involved five colonels, Libyan students and 'Libya veterans who served in Afghanistan'. "

So, in the same breath, those governments have the audacity to assert that they are fighting "Internationall Terrorism," yet they hire those groups to sow mayhem and destruction. And after the work bears its evil fruit, they sit back and self-righteously proclaim that the "Terrorists," were behind that attack. Conveniently leaving out their role in those barbaric acts.

Now, when it was revealed that Saddam Hussein plotted to assassinate George Bush Sr., President Clinton order a strike on Iraq, in retaliation.

Now that it has been revealed that Britain actively saught to murder a foreign leader, what should Libya do to Britain?

Would it be fair for Libya to retaliate?

Or is that option only allowed for Western governments?

I am in no way advocating a strike on Britain.

I'm merely shedding light on the MASSIVE HYPOCRISY of some Western governments.

Who is it again that is waging war against peace, stability and civilization?

But it shouldn't come as a surprise. Certain Western governments have a rich history of using terrorism against their own people.

The very people they vowed to "Protect" and "Serve."

1. MI6 'Halted Bid To Arrest Bin Laden'


Source:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/news/...837333,00.html
Reply

cleo
05-19-2007, 06:07 PM
Remember, this administration has hired 100,000 mercenary soldiers, who is not accountable to the rule of law, their name is Blackwater USA. They kill and blame the Iraq's, or whom ever suits them. The blood-shed, murders of innocents, is from a illegal occupation. Not to mention the lies, that got us there. www.blackwaterusa.com (source)
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:00 PM
:sl: Peace To All

Ulster on the Euphrates: The Anglo-American Dirty War In Iraq

Chris Floyd
Wednesday, February 14, 2007
t r u t h o u t

Paint It Black

Imagine a city torn by sectarian strife. Competing death squads roam the streets; terrorists stage horrific attacks. Local authority is distrusted and weak; local populations protect the extremists in their midst, out of loyalty or fear. A bristling military occupation exacerbates tensions at every turn, while offering prime targets for bombs and snipers. And behind the scenes, in a shadow world of double-cross and double-bluff, covert units of the occupying power run agents on both sides of the civil war, countenancing - and sometimes directing - assassinations, terrorist strikes, torture sessions, and ethnic cleansing.

Is this a portrait of Belfast during "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland? Or a picture of Baghdad today? It is both; and in both cases, one of Britain's most secret - and most criminally compromised - military units has plied its trade in the darkness, "turning" and controlling terrorist killers in a dangerous bid to wring actionable intelligence from blood and betrayal. And America's covert soldiers are right there with them, working side-by-side with their British comrades in the aptly named "Task Force Black," the UK's Sunday Telegraph reports.

Last week, the right-wing, pro-war paper published an early valentine to the "Joint Support Group," the covert unit whose bland name belies its dramatic role at the center of the Anglo-American "dirty war" in Iraq. In gushing, lavish, uncritical prose that could have been (and perhaps was) scripted by the unit itself, the Telegraph lauded the team of secret warriors as "one of the Coalition's most effective and deadly weapons in the fight against terror," running "dozens of Iraqi double-agents," including "members of terrorist groups."

What the story fails to mention is the fact that in its Ulster incarnation, the JSG - then known as the Force Research Unit (FRU) - actively colluded in the murder of at least 15 civilians by Loyalist deaths squads, and an untold number of victims were killed, maimed, and tortured by the many Irish Republican Army double-agents controlled by the unit. What's more, the man who commanded the FRU during the height of its depredations - Lt. Col. Gordon Kerr - is in Baghdad now, heading the hugger-mugger Special Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR), a large counter-terrorism force made up of unnamed "existing assets" from the glory days in Northern Ireland and elsewhere.

This despite the fact that a 10-year, $100 million investigation by Britain's top police officer, Lord Stevens, confirmed in 2003 that the Kerr-led FRU "sanctioned killings" through "institutionalized collusion" with both Protestant and Catholic militias during the 1980s and 1990s. Stevens sent dossiers of evidence against Kerr and 20 other security apparatchiks to the Blair government's Director of Public Prosecutions, in the expectation that the fiery Scotsman and the others would be put on trial.

But instead prosecuting Kerr, Blair promoted him: first to a plum assignment as British military attaché in Beijing - effectively the number two man in all of UK military intelligence, as Scotland's Sunday Herald notes, then, with the SRR posting to Baghdad, where Kerr and his former FRU mates now apply the "methods developed on the mean streets of Ulster during the Troubles," as the Telegraph breathlessly relates.

The Telegraph puff piece is naturally coy about revealing these methods, beyond the fact that, as in Ireland, the JSG uses "a variety of inducements ranging from blackmail to bribes" to turn Iraqi terrorists into Coalition agents. So, to get a better idea of the techniques employed by the group in Baghdad, we must return to those "mean streets of Ulster" and the unit's reign of terror and collusion there, which has been thoroughly documented not only by the exhaustive Stevens inquiries, but also in a remarkable series of investigative reports by the Sunday Herald's Neil Mackay, and in extensive stories by the BBC, the Guardian, the Independent, the Times and others.

We will also see how the operations of the JSG and "Task Force Black" dovetail with U.S. efforts to apply the lessons of its own dirty wars - such as the "Salvador Option" - to Iraq, as well as long-running Bush Administration initiatives to arm and fund "friendly" militias while infiltrating terrorist groups in order to "provoke them into action." It is indeed a picture painted in black, a glimpse at the dark muck that lies beneath the high-flown rhetoric about freedom and civilization forever issuing from the lips of the war leaders.

Whacking for the Peelers

Gregory Burns had a problem. He was one of Gordon Kerr's FRU informers planted deep inside the IRA, along with two of his friends, Johnny Dignam and Aidan Starrs. But as Mackay noted in a February 2003 story, the already-partnered Burns had acquired a girlfriend on the side, Margaret Perry, 26, a "civilian" Catholic with no paramilitary ties. Forbidden fruit is sweet, of course - but pillow talk is dangerous for an inside man. "Burns didn't keep his mouth shut and [Perry] found out he was working for British intelligence," an FRU officer told Mackay. "He tried to convince her he was a double-agent the IRA had planted in the [British] army - but she didn't buy it."

Burns called his FRU handlers and asked to come in from the cold. He'd been compromised, he said, and now he and his friends needed to get out, with new identities, relocation, good jobs - the usual payoff for trusted agents when the jig was up. But Kerr refused: "He said [Burns] should silence Perry," the FRU man told Mackay. Burns, panicking at thought of the IRA's horrific retributions against informers, insisted: he would have to kill the woman if they didn't bring him in, he told Kerr. Again Kerr refused.

And so Burns arranged a meeting with his lover, to "talk over" the situation. His friends, Aidan and Johnny, volunteered to drive her there: "On the way, they pulled into a forest, beat her to death and buried her in a shallow grave," Mackay notes. Two years later, when her body was found, the IRA put two and two together - and slowly tortured Burns and his two friends to death, after first extracting copious amounts of information about British intelligence operations in Ireland.

"In Kerr's eyes, Burns just wasn't important enough to resettle," the FRU source told the Sunday Herald. "So we ended up with four unnecessary deaths and the compromising of British army intelligence officers, which ultimately put soldiers' lives at risk. To Kerr, it was always a matter of the ends justifying the means."

Then again, Kerr could well afford to sacrifice a few informers here and there to the wrath of the IRA's dreaded "security unit" - because his own, prize double agent was the head of that security unit.

Codenamed "Stakeknife," Kerr's man presided over, and sometimes administered, the grisly torture-murders of up to 50 men during his tenure in the IRA's upper ranks. The victims included other British double agents who were sacrificed in order to protect Stakeknife's cover, as the Guardian and many other UK papers reported when the agent's work was revealed in 2003. ("Stakeknife" was later identified in the press as Alfredo Scappaticci - an Irishman despite the Italian name, although he continues to deny the charge.)

The FRU also "knowingly allowed soldiers, [police] officers and civilians to die at the hands of IRA bombers in order to protect republican double agents," the Sunday Herald's investigations found.

As Mackay reports: "FRU sources said around seven police and army personnel died as a result of military intelligence allowing IRA bombs to be placed during Kerr's time in command of the FRU. They estimate that three civilians also died this way, with casualties in the hundreds."

But some of the worst excesses came from the FRU's handling of operatives on the other side, in the fiercely pro-British Protestant militia the Ulster Defense Association (UDA). Here, among the Loyalists, Kerr's top double agent was Brian Nelson, who became head of intelligence for the UDA.

As John Ware put it in the Guardian: "Kerr regarded Nelson as his jewel in the crown ... For the next three years [from 1987], Nelson colluded with murder gangs to shoot IRA suspects. Month after month, armed and masked men crashed into homes. Sometimes they got the wrong address or shot the wrong person."

A wrong person like Gerald Slane, a 27-year-old Belfast man shot down in front of his three children. A gun had been found dumped on his property; this, and his Catholicism, was enough to get him assassinated at the order of Kerr's man Nelson. Afterwards, it was found that Slane had no IRA connections.

Another "wrong person" killed by the FRU's agents was the Belfast attorney Pat Finucane, who was shot 14 times in front of his wife and children. Finucane was a civil rights activist who had defended both Catholics and Protestants, but was considered an IRA sympathizer by Loyalists - and a thorn in the side by British authorities. He was killed at Nelson's order by a fellow FRU informer in the UDA, Ken Barrett, who was convicted of the murder but freed last year as part of an amnesty program in the Northern Ireland peace process. Barrett was unapologetic about his FRU "wetwork" on Finucane. "The peelers [authorities] wanted him whacked," he told a BBC documentary team after his release. "We whacked him and that is the end of the story."

Kerr gave Nelson packages of intelligence files to help facilitate the assassination of UDA targets, including at least four "civilians" with no IRA ties, the Stevens inquiry found. The FRU also obtained "restriction orders" from other British security and military units in Northern Ireland, whereby they would pull their forces from an area when Kerr's UDA agents were going to make a hit there, allowing the killers to get in and get out without hindrance, investigator Nick Davies reports.

Yet the FRU was wary of sharing its own intelligence with other security services - which was the ostensible reason for running the double-agents in the first place. Instead, Kerr engaged in fierce turf wars with other agencies, while "stovepiping" much of his intelligence to the top circles of the UK government, including the cabinet-level Intelligence Committee chaired by then-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. Indeed, when Nelson was finally exposed and brought to trial on five counts of conspiracy to commit murder, Kerr testified in his behalf, noting for the court that Nelson's intelligence "product and his reporting was passed through the intelligence community and at a high level, and from that point of view he has to be considered a very important agent."

As one FRU man told Mackay: "Under Kerr's command...the mindset was one of 'the right people would be allowed to live and wrong people should die.'"

This is the "mindset" now operating in the heart of the Green Zone in Baghdad, where the JSG is carrying out - as we are told in glowing terms - precisely the same mission it had in Ulster.

a unit which has allowed its agents to torture, murder and commit acts of terrorism, including actions that killed local civilians and the soldiers and intelligence operatives of their own country.

The White House Green Light

Of course, Kerr and his Baghdad black-op crew are not alone in the double-dealing world of Iraqi counterinsurgency. The Pentagon's ever-expanding secret armies are deeply enmeshed in such efforts as well.

As Sy Hersh has reported ("The Coming Wars," New Yorker, Jan. 24, 2005), after his re-election in 2004, George W. Bush signed a series of secret presidential directives that authorized the Pentagon to run virtually unrestricted covert operations, including a reprise of the American-backed, American-trained death squads employed by authoritarian regimes in Central and South America during the Reagan Administration, where so many of the Bush faction cut their teeth.

"Do you remember the right-wing execution squads in El Salvador?" a former high-level intelligence official said to Hersh. "We founded them and we financed them. The objective now is to recruit locals in any area we want. And we aren't going to tell Congress about it."

A Pentagon insider added: "We're going to be riding with the bad boys." Another role model for the expanded dirty war cited by Pentagon sources, said Hersh, was Britain's brutal repression of the Mau Mau in Kenya during the 1950s, when British forces set up concentration camps, created their own terrorist groups to confuse and discredit the insurgency, and killed thousands of innocent civilians in quashing the uprising.

Bush's formal greenlighting of the death-squad option built upon an already securely-established base, part of a larger effort to turn the world into a "global free-fire zone" for covert operatives, as one top Pentagon official told Hersh.

For example, in November 2002 a Pentagon plan to infiltrate terrorist groups and "stimulate" them into action was uncovered by William Arkin, then writing for the Los Angeles Times. The new unit, the "Proactive, Pre-emptive Operations Group," was described in the Pentagon documents as "a super-Intelligence Support Activity" that brings "together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence and cover and deception."

Later, in August 2004, then deputy Pentagon chief Paul Wolfowitz appeared before Congress to ask for $500 million to arm and train non-governmental "local militias" to serve as U.S. proxies for "counter-insurgency and "counterterrorist" operations in "ungoverned areas" and hot spots around the world, Agence France Presse (and virtually no one else) reported at the time.

These hired paramilitaries were to be employed in what Wolfowitz called an "arc of crisis" that just happened to stretch across the oil-bearing lands and strategic pipeline routes of Central Asia, the Middle East, Africa and South America.

By then, the Bush Administration had already begun laying the groundwork for an expanded covert war in the hot spot of Iraq. In November 2003, it created a "commando squad" drawn from the sectarian militias of five major Iraqi factions, as the Washington Post reported that year.

Armed, funded and trained by the American occupation forces, and supplied with a "state-of-the-art command, control and communications center" from the Pentagon, the new Iraqi commandos were loosed on the then-nascent Iraqi insurgency - despite the very prescient fears of some U.S. officials "that various Sunni or Shiite factions could eventually use the service to secretly undermine their political competitors," as the Post noted.

And indeed, in early 2005 - not long after Bush's directives loosed the "Salvador Option" on Iraq - the tide of death-squad activity began its long and bloody rise to the tsunami-like levels we see today.

Ironically, the first big spike of mass torture-murders, chiefly in Sunni areas at the time, coincided with "Operation Lightning," a much ballyhooed effort by American and Iraqi forces to "secure" Baghdad.

The operation featured a mass influx of extra troops into the capital; dividing the city into manageable sectors, then working through them one by one; imposing hundreds of checkpoints to lock down all insurgent movements; and establishing a 24-hour presence of security and military forces in troubled neighborhoods, the Associated Press reported in May 2005.

In other words, it was almost exactly the same plan now being offered as Bush's "New Way Forward," the controversial "surge."

But the "Lightning" fizzled in a matter of weeks, and the death squads grew even bolder.

Brazen daylight raids by "men dressed in uniforms" of Iraqi police or Iraqi commandos or other Iraqi security agencies swept up dozens of victims at a time.

For months, U.S. "advisers" to Iraqi security agencies - including veterans of the original "Salvador Option" - insisted that these were Sunni insurgents in stolen threads, although many of the victims were Sunni civilians.

Later, the line was changed: the chief culprits were now "rogue elements" of the various sectarian militias that had "infiltrated" Iraq's institutions.

But as investigative reporter Max Fuller has pointed out in his detailed examination of information buried in reams of mainstream news stories and public Pentagon documents, the vast majority of atrocities then attributed to "rogue" Shiite and Sunni militias were in fact the work of government-controlled commandos and "special forces," trained by Americans, "advised" by Americans and run largely by former CIA agents.

As Fuller puts it: "If there are militias in the Ministry of Interior, you can be sure that they are militias that stand to attention whenever a U.S. colonel enters the room." And perhaps a British lieutenant colonel as well.

With the Anglo-American coalition so deeply embedded in dirty war - infiltrating terrorist groups, "stimulating" them into action," protecting "crown jewel" double-agents no matter what the cost, "riding with the bad boys," greenlighting the "Salvador Option" - it is simply impossible to determine the genuine origin of almost any particular terrorist outrage or death squad atrocity in Iraq.

All of these operations take place in the shadow world, where terrorists are sometimes government operatives and vice versa, and where security agencies and terrorist groups interpenetrate in murky thickets of collusion and duplicity.

This moral chaos leaves "a kind of blot/to mark the full-fraught man and best indued/With some suspicion," as Shakespeare's Henry V says.

What's more, the "intelligence" churned out by this system is inevitably tainted by the self-interest, mixed motives, fear and criminality of those who provide it.

The ineffectiveness of this approach can be seen in the ever-increasing, many-sided civil war that is tearing Iraq apart.

If these covert operations really are intended to quell the violence, they clearly have had the opposite effect.

If they have some other intention, the pious defenders of civilization - who approve these activities with promotions, green lights and unlimited budgets - aren't telling.

Source:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021307J.shtml
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cleo
Remember, this administration has hired 100,000 mercenary soldiers, who is not accountable to the rule of law, their name is Blackwater USA. They kill and blame the Iraq's, or whom ever suits them. The blood-shed, murders of innocents, is from a illegal occupation. Not to mention the lies, that got us there. www.blackwaterusa.com (source)


Our Mercenaries In Iraq

The President Relies On Thousands Of Private Soldiers With Little Oversight, A Disturbing Example Of The Military-Industrial Complex.

The Los Angeles Times
By Jeremy Scahill
January 25, 2007

AS PRESIDENT BUSH took the podium to deliver his State of the Union address Tuesday, there were five American families receiving news that has become all too common: Their loved ones had been killed in Iraq. But in this case, the slain were neither "civilians," as the news reports proclaimed, nor were they U.S. soldiers. They were highly trained mercenaries deployed to Iraq by a secretive private military company based in North Carolina — Blackwater USA.

The company made headlines in early 2004 when four of its troops were ambushed and burned in the Sunni hotbed of Fallouja — two charred, lifeless bodies left to dangle for hours from a bridge. That incident marked a turning point in the war, sparked multiple U.S. sieges of Fallouja and helped fuel the Iraqi resistance that haunts the occupation to this day.

Now, Blackwater is back in the news, providing a reminder of just how privatized the war has become. On Tuesday, one of the company's helicopters was brought down in one of Baghdad's most violent areas. The men who were killed were providing diplomatic security under Blackwater's $300-million State Department contract, which dates to 2003 and the company's initial no-bid contract to guard administrator L. Paul Bremer III in Iraq. Current U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, who is also protected by Blackwater, said he had gone to the morgue to view the men's bodies, asserting the circumstances of their deaths were unclear because of "the fog of war."

Bush made no mention of the downing of the helicopter during his State of the Union speech. But he did address the very issue that has made the war's privatization a linchpin of his Iraq policy — the need for more troops. The president called on Congress to authorize an increase of about 92,000 active-duty troops over the next five years. He then slipped in a mention of a major initiative that would represent a significant development in the U.S. disaster response/reconstruction/war machine: a Civilian Reserve Corps.

"Such a corps would function much like our military Reserve. It would ease the burden on the armed forces by allowing us to hire civilians with critical skills to serve on missions abroad when America needs them," Bush declared. This is precisely what the administration has already done, largely behind the backs of the American people and with little congressional input, with its revolution in military affairs. Bush and his political allies are using taxpayer dollars to run an outsourcing laboratory. Iraq is its Frankenstein monster.

Already, private contractors constitute the second-largest "force" in Iraq. At last count, there were about 100,000 contractors in Iraq, of which 48,000 work as private soldiers, according to a Government Accountability Office report. These soldiers have operated with almost no oversight or effective legal constraints and are an undeclared expansion of the scope of the occupation. Many of these contractors make up to $1,000 a day, far more than active-duty soldiers. What's more, these forces are politically expedient, as contractor deaths go uncounted in the official toll.

The president's proposed Civilian Reserve Corps was not his idea alone. A privatized version of it was floated two years ago by Erik Prince, the secretive, mega-millionaire, conservative owner of Blackwater USA and a man who for years has served as the Pied Piper of a campaign to repackage mercenaries as legitimate forces. In early 2005, Prince — a major bankroller of the president and his allies — pitched the idea at a military conference of a "contractor brigade" to supplement the official military. "There's consternation in the [Pentagon] about increasing the permanent size of the Army," Prince declared. Officials "want to add 30,000 people, and they talked about costs of anywhere from $3.6 billion to $4 billion to do that. Well, by my math, that comes out to about $135,000 per soldier." He added: "We could do it certainly cheaper."

And Prince is not just a man with an idea; he is a man with his own army. Blackwater began in 1996 with a private military training camp "to fulfill the anticipated demand for government outsourcing." Today, its contacts run from deep inside the military and intelligence agencies to the upper echelons of the White House. It has secured a status as the elite Praetorian Guard for the global war on terror, with the largest private military base in the world, a fleet of 20 aircraft and 20,000 soldiers at the ready.

From Iraq and Afghanistan to the hurricane-ravaged streets of New Orleans to meetings with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger about responding to disasters in California, Blackwater now envisions itself as the FedEx of defense and homeland security operations. Such power in the hands of one company, run by a neo-crusader bankroller of the president, embodies the "military-industrial complex" President Eisenhower warned against in 1961.

Further privatizing the country's war machine — or inventing new back doors for military expansion with fancy names like the Civilian Reserve Corps — will represent a devastating blow to the future of American democracy.*

Source:
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/f...atimes769.html


*JEREMY SCAHILL is a fellow at the Nation Institute and the author of the forthcoming "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army."

Copyright 2007 Los Angeles Times
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:18 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

The Salvador Option In Iraq: The Pentagon may put Special-Forces-led

assassination or kidnapping teams in Iraq--


WEB EXCLUSIVE

By Michael Hirsh and John Barry
Newsweek
Updated 5:59 p.m. PT Jan 14, 2005

Jan. 8 - What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq? The Pentagon’s latest approach is being called "the Salvador option"—and the fact that it is being discussed at all is a measure of just how worried Donald Rumsfeld really is.

"What everyone agrees is that we can’t just go on as we are," one senior military officer told NEWSWEEK. "We have to find a way to take the offensive against the insurgents. Right now, we are playing defense. And we are losing."

Last November’s operation in Fallujah, most analysts agree, succeeded less in breaking "the back" of the insurgency—as Marine Gen. John Sattler optimistically declared at the time—than in spreading it out.

Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s.

Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers.

Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq.

Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras. There is no evidence, however, that Negroponte knew anything about the Salvadoran death squads or the Iran-Contra scandal at the time.

The Iraq ambassador, in a phone call to NEWSWEEK on Jan. 10, said he was not involved in military strategy in Iraq. He called the insertion of his name into this report "utterly gratuitous.")

Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions.

It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation.

The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK.

Also being debated is which agency within the U.S. government—the Defense department or CIA—would take responsibility for such an operation. Rumsfeld’s Pentagon has aggressively sought to build up its own intelligence-gathering and clandestine capability with an operation run by Defense Undersecretary Stephen Cambone.

But since the Abu Ghraib interrogations scandal, some military officials are ultra-wary of any operations that could run afoul of the ethics codified in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That, they argue, is the reason why such covert operations have always been run by the CIA and authorized by a special presidential finding. (In "covert" activity, U.S. personnel operate under cover and the U.S. government will not confirm that it instigated or ordered them into action if they are captured or killed.)

RELATED STORY CHRISTOPHER DICKEY

Are there parallels between El Salvador in the ‘80s and Iraq today? Maybe. But the ‘lessons learned’ by Washington are the wrong ones

• Debating 'Death Squads' NEWSWEEK's Michael Hirsh on a possible Pentagon strategy to target Iraqi insurgents .

NEWSWEEK Meanwhile, intensive discussions are taking place inside the Senate Intelligence Committee over the Defense department’s efforts to expand the involvement of U.S. Special Forces personnel in intelligence-gathering missions.

Historically, Special Forces’ intelligence gathering has been limited to objectives directly related to upcoming military operations—"preparation of the battlefield," in military lingo. But, according to intelligence and defense officials, some Pentagon civilians for years have sought to expand the use of Special Forces for other intelligence missions.

Pentagon civilians and some Special Forces personnel believe CIA civilian managers have traditionally been too conservative in planning and executing the kind of undercover missions that Special Forces soldiers believe they can effectively conduct. CIA traditionalists are believed to be adamantly opposed to ceding any authority to the Pentagon.

Until now, Pentagon proposals for a capability to send soldiers out on intelligence missions without direct CIA approval or participation have been shot down. But counter-terrorist strike squads, even operating covertly, could be deemed to fall within the Defense department’s orbit.

Alaa Al-Raya / AP

Ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte, center, was ambassador to Honduras during the Reagan years.

The interim government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is said to be among the most forthright proponents of the Salvador option. Maj. Gen.Muhammad Abdallah al-Shahwani, director of Iraq’s National Intelligence Service, may have been laying the groundwork for the idea with a series of interviews during the past ten days.

Shahwani told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat that the insurgent leadership—he named three former senior figures in the Saddam regime, including Saddam Hussein’s half-brother—were essentially safe across the border in a Syrian sanctuary. "We are certain that they are in Syria and move easily between Syrian and Iraqi territories," he said, adding that efforts to extradite them "have not borne fruit so far."

Shahwani also said that the U.S. occupation has failed to crack the problem of broad support for the insurgency. The insurgents, he said, "are mostly in the Sunni areas where the population there, almost 200,000, is sympathetic to them." He said most Iraqi people do not actively support the insurgents or provide them with material or logistical help, but at the same time they won’t turn them in.

One military source involved in the Pentagon debate agrees that this is the crux of the problem, and he suggests that new offensive operations are needed that would create a fear of aiding the insurgency.

"The Sunni population is paying no price for the support it is giving to the terrorists," he said. "From their point of view, it is cost-free. We have to change that equation."

ONLINE MAIL CALL

Our readers respond to “The Salvador Option” and “ Death-Squad Democracy ”: "...It is a certain, proven prescription for failure..."

Pentagon sources emphasize there has been no decision yet to launch the Salvador option. Last week, Rumsfeld decided to send a retired four-star general, Gary Luck, to Iraq on an open-ended mission to review the entire military strategy there.

But with the U.S. Army strained to the breaking point, military strategists note that a dramatic new approach might be needed—perhaps one as potentially explosive as the Salvador option.

EDITOR'S NOTE:
This report, initially published on Jan. 8, was updated on Jan. 10 to include Negroponte's comments to NEWSWEEK. And at a news conference on Jan. 11, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the idea of a Salvador option was "nonsense" and denied that U.S. Special Forces were going into Syria. But when asked whether such a policy was under consideration, he replied, "Why would I even talk about something like that?"

Source:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek

Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:23 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

The Lavon Affair

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal over a failed Israeli covert operation in Egypt known as Operation Suzannah, in which Egyptian, American and British-owned targets in Egypt were bombed in the summer of 1954. It became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or cryptically as The Unfortunate Affair (Hebrew: עסק הביש Esek HaBish).

Operation Suzannah:

In the early 1950s the United States began pressuring the British to withdraw from the Suez Canal[citation needed], and thereby abandon two operative treaties, the Convention of Constantinople and the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936 that made the canal a neutral zone under British control. Israel was strongly opposed to the British withdrawal, as it feared that it would remove a moderating effect on Nasser's military ambitions, especially toward Israel, but diplomatic methods failed to sway the British.

In the summer of 1954 Colonel Binyamin Gibli, the chief of Israel's military intelligence, Aman, initiated Operation Suzannah in order to reverse that decision. The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of sabotage in Egypt with the aim of creating an atmosphere in which the British and American opponents of British withdrawal from Egypt would be able to gain the upper hand and block the withdrawal.[1]

The top-secret cell, Unit 131, which was to carry out the operation, had existed since 1948 and under Aman since 1950. At the time of Operation Suzannah, Unit 131 was the subject of a bitter dispute between Aman and Mossad over who should control it.

Unit 131 operatives had been recruited several years before, when the Israeli intelligence officer Avram Dar arrived in Cairo under a British cover. He had recruited several Egyptian Jews who had previously been active in illegal emigration activities and trained them for covert operations.

Aman decided to activate the network in the spring of 1954. On July 2, a post office in Alexandria was firebombed, and on July 14, the U.S. Information Agency libraries in Alexandria and Cairo, and a British-owned theater were bombed. The homemade bombs, consisting of bags containing acid placed over nitroglycerine, were inserted into books, and placed on the shelves of the libraries just before closing time. Several hours later, as the acid ate through the bags, the bombs would explode.

They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths. Egyptian authorities arrested one suspect, Robert Dassa, when his bomb accidentally ignited prematurely in his pocket. Having searched his apartment, they found incriminating evidence and names of accomplices to the operation. Several suspects were arrested, including Egyptian Jews and undercover Israelis.

The trial against those arrested lasted until January 27, 1955, when two of the accused (Moshe Marzouk and Shmuel Azar) were condemned to execution by hanging, two were acquitted, and the rest received lengthy prison terms. One suspect was tortured to death in prison, and another one had committed suicide. Israeli agent Avraham Seidenberg (Avri Elad, alias Paul Frank) had managed to escape.

The trial was criticized as a show trial, and there were credible allegations that evidence had been extracted by torture.

The imprisoned operatives were eventually freed in 1967, in a secret addendum to a prisoner of war exchange.

Soon after the affair, Mossad chief Isser Harel expressed suspicion to Aman concerning the integrity of Avri Elad. Despite his concerns, Aman continued using Elad for intelligence operations until 1956, when he was caught trying to sell Israeli documents to the Egyptians.

Elad was tried and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment. In 1980, Harel publicly revealed evidence that Elad had been turned by the Egyptians even before Operation Suzannah. If true, this would imply that Egyptian Intelligence was aware of the operation from the beginning.

Political Aftermath:

In meetings with prime minister Moshe Sharett, secretary of defense Pinhas Lavon denied any knowledge of the operation. When intelligence chief Gibli contradicted Lavon, Sharrett commissioned a board of inquiry consisting of Israeli Supreme Court Justice Isaac Olshan and the first chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, Yaakov Dori that was unable to find conclusive evidence that Lavon had authorized the operation. Lavon tried to fix the blame on Shimon Peres, who was the secretary general of the defense ministry, and Gibli for insubordination and criminal negligence. Sharett resolved the dilemma by siding with Peres, after which Lavon resigned. Former prime minister David Ben-Gurion succeeded Lavon as minister of defense.

In April of 1960, a review of minutes from the inquiry found inconsistencies and possibly a fraudulent document in Gibli's original testimony that seemed to support Lavon's account of events. During this time, it also came to light that Seidenberg (the Israeli agent running Operation Suzannah in Egypt), had committed perjury during the original inquiry.

Seidenberg was also suspected of betraying the group to Egyptian authorities; though the charges were never proven, he was eventually sentenced to a jail term of 10 years. Ben-Gurion scheduled closed hearings with a new board of inquiry chaired by Chaim Cohen, a supreme court justice.

This inquiry found that the perjury indeed had been committed, and that Lavon had not authorized the operation. Sharett and Levi Eshkol tried to issue a statement that would placate both Lavon and those who had opposed him. Ben-Gurion refused to accept the compromise and viewed it as a divisive play within the Mapai party.

After another investigative committee sided with the Cohen inquiry, Ben-Gurion resigned from his post as defense minister. This led to the expulsion of Lavon from the Histadrut labor union and an early call for new elections which changed the political structure in Israel.

It should be noted that the specifics of Operation Suzannah were not public at the time of the political upheaval.

Legacy:

While Israeli concerns about Nasser's military ambitions turned out to have some merit, Operation Suzannah and the Lavon Affair turned out to be disastrous for Israel in several ways:

The Egyptian government used the trial as a pretext for a series of efforts to punish Egyptian Jews culminating in 1958 when, following the Suez Crisis, 25,000 Jews were expelled by Egypt and at least 1,000 ended up in prisons and detention camps.

Israel lost significant standing and credibility in its relations with the United Kingdom and the United States that would take years to repair.

The tactics of the operation led to deep-seated suspicion of Israeli intelligence methods, such as agent provocateurs and false flag operations.

The political aftermath caused considerable political turmoil in Israel that affected the influence of its government.

In March 2005, Israel publicly honored the surviving operatives, and President Moshe Katsav presented each with a certificate of appreciation for their efforts on behalf of the state, ending decades of official denial by Israel.[2]

References:

I. Black and B. Morris, "Israel's Secret Wars". Futura, 1992.
S. Teveth, "Ben-Gurion's Spy". Columbia University Press, 1996.
Ostrovsky, Victor and Hoy, Claire. By Way of Deception. St. Martin's Press, 1991. ISBN 0-312-92614-6

According to historian Shabtai Teveth, who wrote one of the more detailed accounts, the assignment was "To undermine Western confidence in the existing [Egyptian] regime by generating public insecurity and actions to bring about arrests, demonstrations, and acts of revenge, while totally concealing the Israeli factor. The team was accordingly urged to avoid detection, so that suspicion would fall on the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, 'unspecified malcontents' or 'local nationalists'." (Ben-Gurion's Spy, Columbia University Press, 1996, p. 81)

"Israel Honors Egyptian Spies 50 Years After Fiasco", Reuters, March 30, 2005
External links:


The Lavon Affair - Israel and Terror in Egypt
About the Lavon affair
The Lavon Affair by Doron Geller, JUICE, The Jewish Agency for Israel.

Retrieved from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:35 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

More On State-Sponsored Terrorism/Facilitating Terrorists:


The Golden State Terrorists

By Bill Berkowitz
Posted: December 12, 2001

--If President Bush is steadfast in his belief that "if they [countries] fund a terrorist, they're a terrorist. If they house terrorists, they're terrorists," look out California!--

What do Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, the Philippines, Iraq, and Garden Grove and Long Beach, California have in common?

They all appear to be harboring terrorists of one stripe or another. If President Bush is steadfast in his belief that "if they [countries] fund a terrorist, they're a terrorist. If they house terrorists, they're terrorists," look out California!

Randy Gould, editor of the e-zine The Oread Daily, facetiously asked in the November 26 edition, "Will the US bomb California? Can we expect Special Forces on the ground in Orange County?"

Garden Grove? Long Beach? Home to terrorists? That's right. During the past year, Time magazine and several other mainstream publications have identified organizations -- with home offices in the Golden State -- that are plotting coups, planting bombs in other countries and raising money for more of these activities. And they're not your usual Cuban exile groups.

Two organizations -- the Long Beach-based Cambodian Freedom Fighters (CFF), and the Garden Grove-based Government of Free Vietnam (GFV) -- are finally drawing some attention from the U.S. government these days.

Cambodia's California Connection:

In early January, Time-Asia reported that on November 24, 2000, "some 70 rebels armed with assault rifles and rocket launchers -- and wearing matching Cambodian Freedom Fighters T-shirts -- attacked government buildings in downtown Phnom Penh." Within an hour, the raiders were crushed by local authorities "but the fire-fight killed at least four people and terrified a nation still recovering from civil war."

The Long Beach, California-based Cambodian Freedom Fighters was founded and is led by Chhun Yasith, a 44-year-old American citizen whose family fled to the U.S. in 1982. When Yasith isn't organizing the overthrow of the Cambodian government he is an accountant by trade. Although the attack failed to ignite the masses, Yasith told Time-Asia that it succeeded in establishing his group as a force to be reckoned with. "We're definitely going to try again," he said. "There will be more operations. It won't be long."

Shortly after the failed attack, Yasith told the LA Weekly why the group resorted to armed violence against the Cambodian regime. "I did many nonviolent demonstrations in 1995 and 1996," he said, "but it is not workable. We will never change the nature of the communist dictatorship with rallies. Communists are like cows. When you talk to cows, they don't understand."

The Cambodian Freedom Fighters, who claim to have 500 members in the U.S. and up to 20,000 supporters in Cambodia, have an office in Long Beach, where, according to the LA Weekly, there are more than 50,000 Cambodian-American residents. According to its web site the group, legally registered with the Secretary of State of California, aims "to fight against communist[s] to protect the interests of Cambodian people."

The web site points out that: "CFF has not recognized and will not recognize the current government who was born out of an election fraud and brutality, [and] gave immunity to the former Khmer Rouge Leaders who were responsible for the deaths of two million Cambodians instead of bringing them to justice. We, our children and later generation, [can] neither afford to stand by nor allow the dictators to continue their destructions to our homeland. CFF works and stands ... with all classes of the Cambodian National Armies under one color to free our country from communist dictatorship."

(CFF can be contacted at: CFF USA-CB Office: 2728 E. 10th Street, Long Beach, CA 90804 Tel. (562) 433-9930, Fax (562) 433-7490).

In late June, BBC News reported that a Cambodian court had sentenced three U.S. citizens -- two in absentia -- to life in prison resulting from the November 2000 attack. The court also sentenced 27 Cambodians to sentences ranging from three years to life.

What has been the response by the Cambodian government? Given the climate generated by the president's war on terrorism, the U.S. government can't turn its head while the CFF plots more mayhem. Or can it?

Prime Minister Hun Sen's government in Cambodia, has called in the U.S. to extradite Yasith. "We expect that America will recognize one standard for justice, not two," said government spokesman Khieu Kanharith.

The U.S. State Department responded that it "strongly deplores and condemns" the attacks and will seek to prosecute those involved. BBC News reports that the FBI has been investigating the group but has not yet issued a report.

(For more on the political background of Yasith and CFF activities, see "Fighters, Leader Mired in Mystery" at the Bank of Thailand web site.)

Visions of Vietnam:

The Government of Free Vietnam (GFV) is another outfit using its offices in Southern California to raise money to overthrow the government of Vietnam. According to research by The Oread Daily, the Garden Grove, Ca.-based GFV "consists of former South Vietnamese soldiers and leaders living in the U.S., Europe and Southeast Asia.

The group has created training camps in the jungle along the Thai-Laotian border near Vietnam" where it claims to have trained some 100,000 supporters. It has a budget of about $1 million a year.

Nguyen Huu Chanh is the 51-year-old head of GFV. Chanh immigrated to the U.S. in 1982 and is, according to the November 27 Time Asia, "Vietnam's most-wanted terrorist, a globe-trotting rabble-rouser sought by police in his homeland and in the Philippines, where three of his associates were recently arrested with bombmaking materials." Over the past three years the GFV is "suspected in half a dozen attacks on Vietnamese targets in Europe and Asia."

Time Asia: "Earlier this month, U.S. federal agents arrested Free Vietnam operative Vo Van Duc, 41, for involvement in a failed June attempt to blow up the Vietnamese embassy in Bangkok with two fertilizer bombs."

Duc was charged in Los Angeles in mid-November with "conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction abroad and he could face life in prison."

Chanh claims that Duc was acting on his own but in August, Chanh "openly bragged to Time of having planned several past incidents, including one foiled in 1999, when authorities in southern Vietnam arrested 38 people with explosives and plans to blow up national monuments."

Responding to the arrest of Duc, Vietnam's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Phan Thuy Thanh commented, "the U.S. and all governments should have a consistent attitude to terrorist activities."

The Oread Daily also reported that GFV's pre-September 11 "raids in the Philippines resulted in the arrests of several suspected terrorists." According to authorities in Manila, the Vietnamese exiles and their Japanese cohort "planned to bomb the Vietnamese Embassy to coincide with Vietnam's National Day. But far beyond the aborted bombing, the group was reportedly involved in a bigger plot to wreak chaos in Metro Manila."

Police also seized an "improvised explosive devise with a booster detonating cord and components..." at a GFV apartment in Manila. GFV claimed it was their "liaison office" in the Philippines. "It is not a terrorist cell as suspected by the press.

The seizure described by the police [included] bags of ammonium nitrate, rolls of wires with improvised blasting caps, a 12-volt battery, relays, cellular phones, etc. ... technical material which have been used solely in research for possible upcoming operations in Vietnam."

According to Time, neither Yasith of Cambodia Freedom Fighters, nor Chanh of the Government of Free Vietnam are "feeling heat" from the U.S. government.

Time reports that "Yasith spends his nights making calls to Thailand and Cambodia, marshaling his 'secret army,' confident that U.S. authorities are winking and looking the other way."

Yasith confidently told Time that, "They've never given me a red light. That means there's a green light." Whether the U.S. government really has any intentions of trying to stop these groups remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, the governments of Cambodia and Vietnam will continue to press the Bush Administration to do the right thing.

Bill Berkowitz is a longtime observer of the conservative movement. His WorkingForChange column Conservative Watch documents the strategies, players, institutions, victories and defeats of the American Right.

Source:
http://alternet.org/story/12073
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:58 PM
:sl:Peace To All

US Actions Fuelling International Terrorism: Sulu Could Become Another Iraq, Mayor

Courtesy Of: SunStar.com.ph
Tuesday, October 03, 2006

The island province of Sulu could become another Iraq with the continued presence of American soldiers in the area and the drive to wipe out the Aby Sayyaf organization by force.

Davao City Mayor Rodrigo Duterte issued this observation as he again lambasted the US for their actins that contribute to the deterioration of the security and order in many countries.

He said contrary to US claims, they are "fuelling" international terrorism because of their inclination to enforce their will on other peoples and governments.

"US is hypocrite. They are fuelling terrorism all over the world. It would be possible that Jolo would become another Iraq because of them," Duterte said.

Complete Article:
http://sunstar.com.ph/static/dav/200...raq.mayor.html
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-19-2007, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
AS PRESIDENT BUSH took the podium to deliver his State of the Union address Tuesday, there were five American families receiving news that has become all too common: Their loved ones had been killed in Iraq. But in this case, the slain were neither "civilians," as the news reports proclaimed, nor were they U.S. soldiers. They were highly trained mercenaries deployed to Iraq by a secretive private military company based in North Carolina — Blackwater USA.

*JEREMY SCAHILL is a fellow at the Nation Institute and the author of the forthcoming "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army."

Copyright 2007 Los Angeles Times
[/i]
Yes, I know about this company and several others who have turned war into a very profitable business. Despite Mtaffi's insistance that such firms do not exist in Iraq and were never supplied AK47s (one of the two most popular weapons in the audit I posted), I'll take the word of the generals themselves.

My question is... how long has this business been going on? There is also another troubling concern. If this information is correct and American businessmen have been given the green light to operate these types of businesses, then it appears they have a win/win situation. In other words, they stand to profit regardless of who wins the war(s)... plural.

Also, from a very spiritual perspective, they appear to be covered. In other words, if Mohammed (PBUH) decreed that the covenant of Islam must not divide, but rather stand united, and the Muslims fight against each other... the loss of their holy lands is by their own hand. To put it simply, if the Muslims stopped fighting against themselves and they all united against the invasions, this would have been finished ages ago. Thus far, this has not been the case. The Askyara mosque was destroyed and the Shia automatically suspected Al Qaeda in Iraq and attacked the Sunnis in retaliation. A matter I personally found weird since Al Qaeda in Iraq did not attack the Jewish shrine in Al Uzayr.

In my book, the Muslims are being played against each other and the people who manufacture and stock-pile weapons are the ones who will reap a tidy profit from it all. President Reagan once said: "Yes, there could be a limited nuclear war in Europe." and this was interpreted by several European groups (such as the CND) as meaning America intended to exploit the European countries. In other words, the Soviet Union and Europe would suffer from a war that would never touch American soil, even though the war was between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

I believe Bush is probably working along those same lines, but with a new twist... to keep the war away from American soil and, much like the Numb3rs episode (The O.G.), use the same strategic formula to create circumstances in which their named enemies destroy each other.

Well, that's my thought. Proving it all is another story, but given the circumstances, if I were a Muslim, I would definately set out to unite the tribes. All other issues between you guys (like whether or not a tattooed guy is a true Muslim) would become back burner bs.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 08:02 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

IRA Human Bombs 'Brainchild Of British Intelligence'

Courtesy Of: IrelandOn-Line
29/08/2006

Britain's intelligence services may have masterminded an IRA human bomb strategy which killed soldiers and civilians in Northern Ireland in 1990, a lobby group claimed.

The British Irish Rights Watch (BIRW) said counter-terrorism agencies may have been behind the lethal strategy, which saw six soldiers and one civilian die after civilians linked to the security force were made to drive explosives into army facilities.

The pressure group has sent a dossier to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI)'s Historical Enquiries Team about the October 1990 bombing of three Army installations and checkpoints, two of which exploded.

An official report from BIRW said:

"It is known that at least two security force agents were involved in these bombings and allegations have been made that the human bomb strategy was the brainchild of British Intelligence."

"Questions arise as to whether the RUC, An Garda Siochana and the Army's Force Research Unit had prior and/or subsequent intelligence about the bombings."

"These questions in turn lead to concerns about whether these attacks could have been prevented and why no-one has been brought to Justice."

A worker at a Derry Army base, Patsy Gillespie, was used by the IRA as the first human bomb and forced to drive a large explosive device to a military checkpoint at Coshquin near Derry, where it exploded.

The bomb was set off while he was still in the driver's seat, killing him and five soldiers--Stephen Burrows, Stephen Beacham, Vincent Scott, David Sweeney and Paul Worral.

Another soldier, Ranger Cyril Smith, was killed the same night in a similar attack on a permanent checkpoint at Killeen near Newry. Civilian James McEroy, 68, was injured after being ordered to drive the van and its deadly cargo or see his two sons shot.

An attempt to bomb Lisanelly Army barracks in Omagh, Co Tyrone, was foiled when explosives failed to ignite.

The claims may be linked to allegations made by an unknown Army agent, who said the RUC's Special Branch had three IRA agents involved in three separate attacks in South Down in 1989 and 1990.

Source:
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/stor...18&p=y936939z4
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 08:07 PM
:sl:Peace To All

UK Agents 'Did Have Role In IRA Bomb Atrocities'

Courtesy Of: The Observer
By Henry McDonald,
Ireland Editor
Sunday September 10, 2006

The controversy over claims that Britain allowed two IRA informers to organise 'human bomb' attacks intensified this weekend.

A human rights watchdog has handed a report to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which concludes that two British agents were central to the bombings of three army border installations in 1990.

Meanwhile the Police Ombudsman's Office in Belfast confirmed it is investigating allegations by the family of one victim that the bomb in Newry on 24 October 1990 could have been prevented.

The British Irish Rights Watch report will also put the focus back on the alleged MI6 agent 'J118.' Army intelligence officer turned whistleblower Martin Ingram has alleged 'J118 was Sinn Fein's chief negotiator Martin McGuinness.

...The 'human bomb' tactic involved forcing civilians to drive vehicles laden with explosives into army checkpoints and included deadly sorties near Newry and Coshquin outside Derry. Six British soldiers and a civilian worker at an army base died in the simultaneous blasts on either side of Northern Ireland.

British Irish Rights Watch said:

"This month BIRW sent a confidential report to the Historical Enquiries Team on the three incidents that occurred on 24th October 1990...At least two security force agents were involved in these bombings, and allegations have been made that the "human bomb" strategy was the brainchild of British intelligence.'

'Questions arise as to whether the RUC, Garda Siochana and the Army's Force Research Unit had prior and/or subsequent intelligence about the bombings. These questions in turn lead to concerns about whether these attacks could have been prevented and why no one has been brought to Justice."

Although British Irish Watch has made no reference to the identities of the informers they allege were involved in the 'human bomb' plot, the group's intervention in the controversy is a significant development.

The group has issued several detailed reports previously outlining cases of collusion between loyalist terrorists and the security forces. These include the Pat Finucane murder and the killing of Raymond McCord Jr by the Ulster Volunteer Force.
In both cases, British Irish Rights Watch claim many of the loyalists involved in these murders were agents for the security forces--Allegations that were later substantiated.

Speaking from a secret location in Europe this weekend, Ingram (not his real name) said that while the latest report was not decisive proof over his claim about 'J118,' it raised questions about the role of informers in the 'human bomb' killings.

'This report from a very credible source brings up the question of informers working at the top tier of the IRA who were allowed to commit crimes up to murder while working for the state. I stand by what I have said in the past about "J118" and challenge anyone to debate it with me in a public forum.'

Ingram, a former NCO with the Army's highly secretive Force Research Unit, said he was prepared to expose his own identity in public in any such debate.

Source:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/polit...869019,00.html

The following link on the British Army's "Force Research Unit," has been provided by me:

1. Force Research Unit (Wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_Research_Unit
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:/Peace To All

IRA Human Bombs 'Brainchild Of British Intelligence'

Courtesy Of: IrelandOn-Line
29/08/2006

Britain's intelligence services may have masterminded an IRA human bomb strategy which killed soldiers and civilians in Northern Ireland in 1990, a lobby group claimed.

The British Irish Rights Watch (BIRW) said counter-terrorism agencies may have been behind the lethal strategy, which saw six soldiers and one civilian die after civilians linked to the security force were made to drive explosives into army facilities.

The pressure group has sent a dossier to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI)'s Historical Enquiries Team about the October 1990 bombing of three Army installations and checkpoints, two of which exploded.

An official report from BIRW said:

"It is known that at least two security force agents were involved in these bombings and allegations have been made that the human bomb strategy was the brainchild of British Intelligence."

"Questions arise as to whether the RUC, An Garda Siochana and the Army's Force Research Unit had prior and/or subsequent intelligence about the bombings."

"These questions in turn lead to concerns about whether these attacks could have been prevented and why no-one has been brought to Justice."

A worker at a Derry Army base, Patsy Gillespie, was used by the IRA as the first human bomb and forced to drive a large explosive device to a military checkpoint at Coshquin near Derry, where it exploded.

The bomb was set off while he was still in the driver's seat, killing him and five soldiers--Stephen Burrows, Stephen Beacham, Vincent Scott, David Sweeney and Paul Worral.

Another soldier, Ranger Cyril Smith, was killed the same night in a similar attack on a permanent checkpoint at Killeen near Newry. Civilian James McEroy, 68, was injured after being ordered to drive the van and its deadly cargo or see his two sons shot.

An attempt to bomb Lisanelly Army barracks in Omagh, Co Tyrone, was foiled when explosives failed to ignite.

The claims may be linked to allegations made by an unknown Army agent, who said the RUC's Special Branch had three IRA agents involved in three separate attacks in South Down in 1989 and 1990.

Source:
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/stor...18&p=y936939z4
What exactly does this have to do with anything? A lobby group in 2006 claims that British intelligence was involved with IRA bombing...a lobby group known to sympathize with the IRA. Was this supposed to convince people that there is no Al-Qaeda and it is all a U.S. conspiracy?
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 08:10 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

UK State Sponsored Terrorism:

The intelliegence services and the Northern Ireland Conflict


Courtesy Of: FreedomFiles.org

FreedomFiles has compiled a massive list of links that contain: articles, documents and press releases from various sources about Britains war of terror which was waged by its security forces and loyalists against individuals & organisations, who opposed British rule.

1. A chronology from the UK Printed Press:

a ) The Sunday Herald.
b ) The Guardian.
c ) The Independent.

2. World Socialist Website:

Fresh revelations on secret British terror organisations in Northern Ireland.

3. Relatives for Justice - Documents & Press Releases.

4. Committee on the Rights of the Child.

5. For God and Ulster - A guide to the Orange Order.

6. Amnesty - Political killings in Northern Ireland.

7. Consultation Paper on a Victim's Strategy.

8. Submission to Patten Commission - Part One.

9. Collusion 1990-1994 - Loyalist paramilitary murders in the North of Ireland.

10. Press Releases.

Source (A Massive Listing Of References With Links):
http://freedomfiles.org/war/ireland/nireland.htm
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, I know about this company and several others who have turned war into a very profitable business. Despite Mtaffi's insistance that such firms do not exist in Iraq and were never supplied AK47s (one of the two most popular weapons in the audit I posted), I'll take the word of the generals themselves.

My question is... how long has this business been going on? There is also another troubling concern. If this information is correct and American businessmen have been given the green light to operate these types of businesses, then it appears they have a win/win situation. In other words, they stand to profit regardless of who wins the war(s)... plural.

Also, from a very spiritual perspective, they appear to be covered. In other words, if Mohammed (PBUH) decreed that the covenant of Islam must not divide, but rather stand united, and the Muslims fight against each other... the loss of their holy lands is by their own hand. To put it simply, if the Muslims stopped fighting against themselves and they all united against the invasions, this would have been finished ages ago. Thus far, this has not been the case. The Askyara mosque was destroyed and the Shia automatically suspected Al Qaeda in Iraq and attacked the Sunnis in retaliation. A matter I personally found weird since Al Qaeda in Iraq did not attack the Jewish shrine in Al Uzayr.

In my book, the Muslims are being played against each other and the people who manufacture and stock-pile weapons are the ones who will reap a tidy profit from it all. President Reagan once said: "Yes, there could be a limited nuclear war in Europe." and this was interpreted by several European groups (such as the CND) as meaning America intended to exploit the European countries. In other words, the Soviet Union and Europe would suffer from a war that would never touch American soil, even though the war was between the U.S. and the Soviet Union.

I believe Bush is probably working along those same lines, but with a new twist... to keep the war away from American soil and, much like the Numb3rs episode (The O.G.), use the same strategic formula to create circumstances in which their named enemies destroy each other.

Well, that's my thought. Proving it all is another story, but given the circumstances, if I were a Muslim, I would definately set out to unite the tribes. All other issues between you guys (like whether or not a tattooed guy is a true Muslim) would become back burner bs.

The Ninth Scribe
Blackwater does not use Ak-47s. A big budget company like that would have no reason to arm its employees with an obsolete weapon. All the Blackwater employees I've seen are using modern American military equipment. Ak-47s are highly inaccurate. The Soviet Union sold these weapons to their third world allies because they were cheap and fairly easy to maintain. The U.S. supplies the Iraqi security forces with these weapons for the same reason, they are cheap and easy to maintain.

As for contractors in general, as I've mentioned before, their jobs revolve around escorting VIPs and convoys. They do not participate in the overall mission of the U.S. military. They get paid alot of money, which makes sense because of the danger involved with their job.
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Was this supposed to convince people that there is no Al-Qaeda and it is all a U.S. conspiracy?

It means that a lot of these groups were infiltrated, manipulated and misguided by prominent Western intelligence services.

It also shows that much of these bombings have Western security fingerprints behind them. Either the bombings were conducted by the security services/special forces directly, or they were hatched by those services and carried out by their proxy agents (local people or Mercs).

Didn't our government train and supply the Afghans and their Arab foreign fighters during the Soviet invasion of that beleagured nation?

We were in bed with many of these groups...
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 02:41 AM
:sl:/Peace To All

Israeli Air Force Detonated Car Bomb In Lebanon

Courtesy Of: Haaretz.com
By The Associated Press
15/06/2006

Beirut--An Israeli aircraft detonated the car bomb that killed two officials of a Palestinian militant group in South Lebanon last month, Lebanese Defense Minister Elias Murr said Thursday.

The government has decided to complain to the UN Security Council about Israeli attacks in Lebanon, Information Minister Ghazi Aridi said following a Cabinet meeting that heard the defense minister's report.

Murr briefed the Cabinet on the May 26 car bombing that killed Mahmoud Majzoub, a senior Islamic Jihad official, and his brother as they walked out of their home in the Southern coity of Sidon. Both men were Lebanese citizens.

Earlier Thursday, Murr told reporters at his office that the state's investigation had found an aircraft was looking out for the Majzoub's via a camera on the ground.

"The bomb was detonated from this aircraft," he said.

Murr said the main suspect had received "bags filled with explosives" delivered by Israeli sea-borne commandos North of Beirut.

On Saturday, the Lebanese Army said it had arrested Mahmoud Rafeh, 59, a retired police officer, for the killing of the Majzoubs. Rafeh "had links to Israeli Intelligence," the Army said in a statement.

On Tuesday, the Army said Rafeh had confessed to killing the Majzoub brother's as well as to other operations--including the killing of officials of the militant Hezbollah group in 1999 and 2003, and the slaying of the son of Ahmed Jibril, leader of the radical Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. in 2002.

Murr told reporters that Rafeh's group was the most dangerous to be discovered in Lebanon in 30 years.

Lebanon has detained many people on charges for spying for Israel. The country considers itself at war with its Southern neighbor and bans its citizens from having any contact with the Jewish State.

Source:
http://press.jrc.it/NewsExplorer/clu...81c5a0d81.html
Reply

Cognescenti
05-20-2007, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

It means that a lot of these groups were infiltrated, manipulated and misguided by prominent Western intelligence services.

It also shows that much of these bombings have Western security fingerprints behind them. Either the bombings were conducted by the security services/special forces directly, or they were hatched by those services and carried out by their proxy agents (local people or Mercs).

Didn't our government train and supply the Afghans and their Arab foreign fighters during the Soviet invasion of that beleagured nation?

We were in bed with many of these groups...
:rollseyes That's right. Every untoward event South or East of the Dardenelles is the fault of the Mossad or the CIA
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 03:55 AM
:sl:/Peace To All

Operation Gladio


Gladio (Italian, from Latin gladius, meaning sword) is a code name denoting the clandestine NATO "stay-behind" operation in Italy after World War II, intended to counter a Warsaw Pact invasion of Western Europe. Although Gladio specifically refers to the Italian branch of the NATO stay-behind organisations, Operation Gladio is the code name for all stay-behind organisations. Operating in all of NATO and even in some neutral countries or in Spain before its 1982 adhesion to NATO, Gladio was first coordinated by the Clandestine Committee of the Western Union (CCWU), founded in 1948. After the creation of NATO in 1949, the CCWU was integrated into the Clandestine Planning Committee (CPC), founded in 1951 and overseen by the SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe), transferred to Belgium after France’s official withdrawal from NATO in 1966 — which was not followed by the dissolution of the French stay-behind paramilitary movements. According to historian Daniele Ganser, one of the major researcher on the field, "Next to the CPC, a second secret army command center, labeled the Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC), was set up in 1957 on the orders of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander in Europe (SACEUR). This military structure provided for significant US leverage over the secret stay-behind networks in Western Europe as the SACEUR, throughout NATO's history, has traditionally been a US General who reports to the Pentagon in Washington and is based in NATO's Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE) in Mons, Belgium. The ACC's duties included elaborating on the directives of the network, developing its clandestine capability, and organizing bases in Britain and the United States. In wartime, it was to plan stay-behind operations in conjunction with SHAPE. According to former CIA director William Colby, it was 'a major program'."[1]

The role of the CIA in sponsoring Gladio and the extent of its activities during the Cold War era, and its relationship to false flag attacks perpetrated in Italy during the years of lead and other similar clandestine operations is the subject of ongoing debate and investigation. Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter.[2]

General stay-behind structure

After World War II, the UK and the US decided to create "stay-behind" paramilitary organizations, with the official aim of countering a possible Soviet invasion through sabotage and guerrilla warfare behind enemy lines. Arms caches were hidden, escape routes prepared, and loyal members recruited: i.e. mainly hardline anticommunists, including many ex-Nazis or former fascists, whether in Italy or in other European countries. In Germany, for example, Gladio had as central focus the Gehlen Org — also involved in ODESSA "ratlines" — named after Reinhard Gehlen who would become West Germany's first head of intelligence, while the predominantly Italian P2 masonic lodge was composed of many members of the neofascist Italian Social Movement (MSI), including Licio Gelli. Its clandestine "cells" were to stay behind (hence the name) in enemy controlled territory and to act as resistance movements, conducting sabotage, guerrilla warfare and assassinations.

However, internal subversion was also considered, as the use of "false flag operations" (terror attacks attributed to the opposite side). "A briefing minute of June 1, 1959, reveals Gladio was built around 'internal subversion'. It was to play 'a determining role… not only on the general policy level of warfare, but also in the politics of emergency'. In the 1970s, with communist electoral support growing and other leftists looking menacing, the establishment turned to the 'Strategy of Tension' … with Gladio eager to be involved."[3] The rising importance of communist parties in some countries, especially in Italy in the 1970s, led to the effective realization of those plans (See below).

CIA founder Allen Dulles was one of the key people in instituting Operation Gladio, and most of Gladio’s operations were financed by the CIA. In an International Herald Tribune article dated November 13, 1990, Joseph Fitchett talked about the "Nato resistance", declaring that those anti-communist networks, which were present in all of Europe, including neutral countries like Sweden and Switzerland, were partly funded by the CIA. Some went as far as claiming that Democrazia Cristiana leader Aldo Moro had been the "founder of (Italian) Gladio".[4] However, whether these allegations are correct or not, his murder in 1978 put an end to the “historic compromise” (sharing of power) attempt between the PCI and the Christian Democracy (DC), thus accomplishing one of the declared objectives of the Gladio’s strategy of tension.

Operating in all of NATO and even in some neutral countries or in Spain before its 1982 adhesion to NATO, Gladio was first coordinated by the Clandestine Committee of the Western Union (CCWU), founded in 1948. After the creation of NATO in 1949, the CCWU was integrated into the "Clandestine Planning Committee" (CPC), founded in 1951 and overseen by the SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe), transferred to Belgium after France’s official retreat from NATO — which was not followed by the dissolution of the French stay-behind paramilitary movements.

"Next to the CPC, a second secret army command center, labeled Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC), was set up in 1957 on the orders of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander in Europe (SACEUR). This military structure provided for significant US leverage over the secret stay-behind networks in Western Europe as the SACEUR, throughout NATO's history, has traditionally been a US General who reports to the Pentagon in Washington and is based in NATO's Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE) in Mons, Belgium. The ACC's duties included elaborating on the directives of the network, developing its clandestine capability, and organizing bases in Britain and the United States. In wartime, it was to plan stay-behind operations in conjunction with SHAPE. According to former CIA director William Colby, it was 'a major program'."[1]

"Coordinated by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), {the secret armies} were run by the European military secret services in close cooperation with the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the British foreign secret service Secret Intelligence Service (SIS, also MI6). Trained together with US Green Berets and British Special Air Service (SAS), these clandestine NATO soldiers, armed with underground arms-caches, prepared against a potential Soviet invasion and occupation of Western Europe, as well as the coming to power of communist parties. The clandestine international network covered the European NATO membership, including Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, and Turkey, as well as the neutral European countries of Austria, Finland, Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland.
'The existence of these clandestine NATO armies remained a closely guarded secret throughout the Cold War until 1990, when the first branch of the international network was discovered in Italy. It was code-named Gladio, the Latin word for a short double-edged sword [gladius]. While the press said the NATO secret armies were 'the best-kept, and most damaging, political-military secret since World War II', the Italian government, amidst sharp public criticism, promised to close down the secret army. Italy insisted identical clandestine armies had also existed in all other countries of Western Europe. This allegation proved correct and subsequent research found that in Belgium, the secret NATO army was code-named SDRA8, in Denmark Absalon, in Germany TD BJD, in Ireland Taca na hÉireann[citation needed], in Greece LOK, in Luxemburg Stay-Behind, in the Netherlands I&O, in Norway ROC, in Portugal Aginter, in Switzerland P26, in Turkey Counter-Guerrilla, In Sweden AGAG (Aktions Gruppen Arla Gryning, and in Austria OWSGV. However, the code names of the secret armies in France, Finland and Spain remain unknown.

Upon learning of the discovery, the parliament of the European Union (EU) drafted a resolution sharply criticizing the fact (...) Yet only Italy, Belgium and Switzerland carried out parliamentary investigations, while the administration of President George H. W. Bush refused to comment, being in the midst of preparations for war against Saddam Hussein in the Persian Gulf, and fearing potential damages to the military alliance."[1]

If Gladio was effectively "the best-kept, and most damaging, political-military secret since World War II", it must be underlined, however, that on several occasions, arms caches were discovered and stay-behind paramilitary organizations officially dissolved – only to be created again. But it was not until the 1990s that the full international scope of the program was disclosed to public knowledge. Giulio Andreotti, the main character of Italy’s post-WWII political life, was described by Aldo Moro to his captors as "too close to NATO", Moro thus advising them to be wary. Indeed, before Andreotti’s 1990 acknowledgement of Gladio’s existence, he had "unequivocally" denied it in 1974, and then in 1978 to judges investigating the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing. And even in 1990, "Testimonies collected by the two men [judges Felice Casson and Carlo Mastelloni investigating the 1972 Peteano fascist car bomb] and by the Commission on Terrorism on Rome, and inquiries by the Guardian, indicate Gladio was involved in activities which do not square with Andreotti's account. Links between Gladio, Italian secret services bosses and the notorious P2 masonic lodge are manifold (…) In the year that Andreotti denied Gladio’s existence, the P2 treasurer, General Siro Rosetti, gave a generous account of 'a secret security structure made up of civilians, parallel to the armed forces' There are also overlaps between senior Gladio personnel and the committee of military men, Rosa dei Venti (Wind Rose), which tried to stage a coup in 1970.”[3]

The European Parliament resolution concerning Gladio

Main article: European Parliament November 22, 1990 Resolution on Gladio

On November 22, 1990, the European Parliament passed a resolution condemning Gladio, requesting full investigations – which have yet to be done – and total dismantlement of these paramilitary structures – which, as of 2005, has not been proven. The resolution condemned "the existence for 40 years of a clandestine parallel intelligence" as well as "armed operations organization in several Member States of the Community", which "escaped all democratic controls and has been run by the secret services of the states concerned in collaboration with NATO." Denouncing the "danger that such clandestine network may have interfered illegally in the internal political affairs of Member States or may still do so," especially before the fact that "in certain Member States military secret services (or uncontrolled branches thereof) were involved in serious cases of terrorism and crime," the Parliament demanded a "a full investigation into the nature, structure, aims and all other aspects of these clandestine organizations or any splinter groups, their use for illegal interference in the internal political affairs of the countries concerned, the problem of terrorism in Europe and the possible collusion of the secret services of Member States or third countries."

Furthermore, the resolution protested "vigorously at the assumption by certain US military personnel at SHAPE and in NATO of the right to encourage the establishment in Europe of a clandestine intelligence and operation network," asking "the Member States to dismantle all clandestine military and paramilitary networks" and to "draw up a complete list of organizations active in this field, and at the same time to monitor their links with the respective state intelligence services and their links, if any, with terrorist action groups and/or other illegal practices." Finally, the Parliament called "on its competent committee to consider holding a hearing in order to clarify the role and impact of the 'Gladio' organization and any similar bodies," and instructed "its President fo forward this resolution to the Commission, the Council, the Secretary-General of NATO, the governments of the Member States and the United States Government."

A. having regard to the revelation by several European governments of the existence for 40 years of a clandestine parallel intelligence and armed operations organization in several Member States of the Community,

B. whereas for over 40 years this organization has escaped all democratic controls and has been run by the secret services of the states concerned in collaboration with NATO,

C. fearing the danger that such clandestine network may have interfered illegally in the internal political affairs of Member States or may still do so,

D. whereas in certain Member States military secret services (or uncontrolled branches thereof) were involved in serious cases of terrorism and crime as evidenced by, various judicial inquiries,

E. whereas these organizations operated and continue to operate completely outside the law since they are not subject to any parliamentary control and frequently those holding the highest government and constitutional posts are kept in the dark as to these matters,

F. whereas the various 'Gladio' organizations have at their disposal independent arsenals and military resources which give them an unknown strike potential, thereby jeopardizing the democratic structures of the countries in which they are operating or have been operating,

G. greatly concerned at the existence of decision-making and operational bodies which are not subject to any form of democratic control and are of a completely clandestine nature at a time when greater Community cooperation in the field of security is a constant subject of discussion,

1. Condemns the clandestine creation of manipulative and operational networks and Calls for a full investigation into the nature, structure, aims and all other aspects of these clandestine organizations or any splinter groups, their use for illegal interference in the internal political affairs of the countries concerned, the problem of terrorism in Europe and the possible collusion of the secret services of Member States or third countries;

2. Protests vigorously at the assumption by certain US military personnel at SHAPE and in NATO of the right to encourage the establishment in Europe of a clandestine intelligence and operation network;

3. Calls on the governments of the Member States to dismantle all clandestine military and paramilitary networks;

4. Calls on the judiciaries of the countries in which the presence of such military organizations has been ascertained to elucidate fully their composition and modus operandi and to clarify any action they may have taken to destabilize the democratic structure of the Member States;

5. Requests all the Member States to take the necessary measures, if necessary by establishing parliamentary committees of inquiry, to draw up a complete list of organizations active in this field, and at the same time to monitor their links with the respective state intelligence services and their links, if any, with terrorist action groups and/or other illegal practices;

6. Calls on the Council of Ministers to provide full information on the activities of these secret intelligence and operational services;

7. Calls on its competent committee to consider holding a hearing in order to clarify the role and impact of the 'Gladio' organization and any similar bodies;

8. Instructs its President fo forward this resolution to the Commission, the Council, the Secretary-General of NATO, the governments of the Member States and the United States Government."[5]

Allegations

Gladio has been accused of trying to influence policies through the means of "false flag" operations: a 2000 Italian Parliamentary Commission report from the Olive Tree left-wing coalition concluded that the strategy of tension used by Gladio had been supported by the United States to "stop the PCI (Italian Communist Party) , and to a certain degree also the PSI (Italian Socialist Party), from reaching executive power in the country".

Propaganda Due (aka P2), a quasi-freemasonic organization, whose existence was discovered in 1981, was closely linked to Gladio. According to a November 18, 1990 article by The Observer, quoted by Statewatch, "Declassified secret service papers reveal that Ted Shackleton, deputy chief of the CIA station in Rome in the 1970s introduced Licio Gelli – head of the neofascist P2 Masonic lodge and for years a fugitive in Argentina – to General Alexander Haig, then Nixon's chief of staff, and later, from 1974 to 1979, NATO Supreme Commander. P2 was a right-wing shadow government, ready to take over Italy, that included four Cabinet Ministers, all three intelligence chiefs, 48 members of parliament, 160 military officers, bankers, industrialists, top diplomats and the Army Chief of Staff. After meetings between Gelli, Italian military officers and CIA men in the embassy, Gladio was given renewed blessing – and more money – by Haig and the head of the National Security Council, Henry Kissinger. Just how those and later funds were spent is a key point in the Casson investigations."[5]

P2 was outlawed and disbanded in 1981, in the wake of the Banco Ambrosiano scandal, which was linked to the Mafia and to the Vatican Bank. Its Grand Master, Licio Gelli, was involved in most of Italy’s scandals in the last three decades of the 20th century: Banco Ambrosiano’s crash; Tangentopoli, which gave rise to the Mani pulite ("Clean hands") anticorruption operation in the 1990s; the kidnapping and the murder of Prime Minister Aldo Moro in 1978 – the head of the secret services at the time, accused of negligence, was a piduista (P2 member). Licio Gelli has often said he was a friend of Argentine President Juan Perón. In any case, some members of Jorge Videla’s junta were discovered to be piduista, such as José López Rega, founder of the infamous anticommunist organization Triple A, Raúl Alberto Lastiri or Emilio Massera. The Vatican Bank was also accused of funneling covert US funds for the Solidarnosc trade union movement in Poland and the Contras in Nicaragua.[6]

Furthermore, Gladio has been linked to other events, such as Operation Condor[7]and the 1969 killing of anticolonialist leader Eduardo Mondlane by Aginter Press, the Portuguese "stay-behind" secret army, headed by Yves Guérin-Sérac. In 1995, Attorney General Giovanni Salvi accused the Italian secret services of having manipulated proofs of the Chilean secret police’s (DINA) involvement in the 1975 terrorist attack on former Chilean Vice-President Bernardo Leighton in Rome. A similar mode of operation can also be recognized in various Cold War events, for example between the June 20, 1973 Ezeiza massacre in Buenos Aires (Argentina), the 1976 Montejurra massacre in Spain and the 1977 Taksim Square massacre in Istanbul (Turkey).

After Giulio Andreotti's revelations and the disestablishment of Gladio, the last meeting of the "Allied Clandestine Committee" (ACC), was held according to the Italian Prime minister on October 23 and 24, 1990. Despite this, various events have raised concerns about "stay-behind" armies still being in place. In 1996, the Belgian newspaper Le Soir revealed the existence of a racist plan operated by the military intelligence agencies. In 1999, Switzerland was suspected of again creating a clandestine paramilitary structure, allegedly to replace the former P26 and P27 (the Swiss branches of Gladio). Furthermore, in 2005, the Italian press revealed the existence of the Department of Anti-terrorism Strategic Studies (DSSA), accused of being "another Gladio".

Gladio's strategy of tension and internal subversion operations

Further information: Strategy of tension

NATO's "stay-behind" organizations were never called upon to resist a Soviet invasion, but their structures continued to exist after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Internal subversion and "false flag" operations were explicitly considered by the CIA and stay-behind paramilitaries. According to a November 13, 1990 Reuters cable quoted by Statewatch, "André Moyen – a former member of the Belgian military security service and of the [stay-behind] network – said Gladio was not just anti-Communist but was for fighting subversion in general. He added that his predecessor had given Gladio 142 million francs ($4.6 millions) to buy new radio equipment."[8] On various occasions, stay-behind movements became linked to right-wing terrorism, crime and attempted coups d'état:

"Prudent Precaution or Source of Terror?"

The international press pointedly asked when the secret stay-behind armies of NATO were discovered across Western Europe in late 1990. After more than ten years of research, the answer is now clear: both. The overview aboves shows that based on the experiences of World War II, all countries of Western Europe, with the support of NATO, the CIA, and MI6, had set up stay-behind armies as precaution against a potential Soviet invasion. While the safety networks and the integrity of the majority of the secret soldiers should not be criticized in hindsight after the collapse of the Soviet Union, very disturbing questions do arise with respect to reported links to terrorism.
"There exist large differences among the European countries, and each case must be analyzed individually in further detail. As of now, the evidence suggests the secret armies in the seven countries, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Luxemburg, Switzerland, Austria, and the Netherlands, focused exclusively on their stay-behind function and were not linked to terrorism.

However, links to terrorism have been either confirmed or claimed in the nine countries, Italy, Ireland, Turkey, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, and Sweden, demanding further investigation."[1]

According to Daniele Ganser, only Italy, Belgium and Switzerland carried on parliamentary investigations, while the prosecution of various "black terrorists" (terrorismo nero, neofascist terrorism) in Italy was difficult. "On the eve of the 1980 Bologna bombing anniversary, Liberato Mancuso, the Bologna judge who had led the investigation and secured the initial convictions [of the Bologna bombers] broke six months of silence:

"It is now understood among those engaged in the matter of democratic rights that we are isolated, and the objects of a campaign of aggression. This is what has happened to the commission into the P2, and to the magistrates. The personal risks to us are small in comparison to this offensive of denigration, which attempts to discredit the quest for truth. In Italy there has functioned for some years now a sort of conditioning, a control of our national sovereignty by the P2 – which was literally the master of the secret services, the army and our most delicate organs of state" wrote The Guardian on August 3, 1990[9]

Examples of such terrorist acts include the strategy of tension in Italy, or the Oktoberfest bomb blast of 1980 in Munich. In an November 7, 1990 article from Le Monde, a Gladio official said that "depending on the cases, we would block or encourage far-left or far-right terrorism",[10].


Gladio operations in NATO Countries

First discovered in Italy

Main article: Gladio in Italy

The Italian NATO stay-behind organization, dubbed "Gladio", was set up under Minister of Defense (from 1953 to 1958) Paolo Taviani's (DC) supervision.[11] However, Gladio's existence came to public knowledge when Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti revealed it to the Chamber of Deputies on October 24, 1990, although far-right terrorist Vincenzo Vinciguerra had already revealed its existence during his 1984 trial. According to media analyst Edward S. Herman, "both the President of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, and Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti, had been involved in the Gladio organization and coverup..."[12]


Giulio Andreotti's October 24, 1990 revelations

Prime minister Giulio Andreotti (member of the Christian Democracy, DC) publicly recognized the existence of Gladio on October 24, 1990. Andreotti spoke of a "structure of information, response and safeguard", with arms caches and reserve officers. He gave to the Commissione Stragi, the parliamentary commission led by senator Giovanni Pellegrino in charge of investigations on bombings committed during the years of lead in Italy, a list of 622 civilians who according to him were part of Gladio. Andreotti also assured that 127 weapons' cache had been dismantled, and pretended that Gladio had not been involved in any of the bombings committed from the 1960s to the 1980s (further evidence implicated neofascists linked to Gladio, in particular concerning the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing, the 1972 Peteano attack by Vincenzo Vinciguerra, the 1980 Bologna massacre in which SISMI officers were condemned for investigation diversion, along with Licio Gelli, head of Propaganda Due masonic lodge, etc.). Andreotti declared that the Italian military services (predecessors of the current SISMI had joined in 1964 the Allied Clandestine Committee created in 1957 by the US, France, Belgium and Greece, and which was in charge of directing Gladio's operations.[13] However, Gladio was actually set up under Minister of Defense (from 1953 to 1958) Paolo Taviani's supervision.[11] Beside, the list of Gladio members given by Andreotti was incomplete. It didn't include, for example, Antonio Arconte, who described an organization very different from the one brushed by Giulio Andreotti: an organization closely tied to the SID secret service and the Atlantist strategy.[14][15] According to Andreotti, the stay-behind organisations set up in all of Europe did not come "under broad NATO supervision until 1959" (David Pallister, Guardian, 5 December 1990[16]).


2000 Parliamentary report: a "strategy of tension"

In 2000, a Parliament Commission report from the "Gruppo Democratici di Sinistra l'Ulivo" concluded that the strategy of tension had been supported by the United States to "stop the PCI, and to a certain degree also the PSI, from reaching executive power in the country". A 2000 Senate report, stated that "Those massacres, those bombs, those military actions had been organized or promoted or supported by men inside Italian state institutions and, as has been discovered more recently, by men linked to the structures of United States intelligence." According to The Guardian, "The report [claimed] that US intelligence agents were informed in advance about several rightwing terrorist bombings, including the December 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing in Milan and the Piazza della Loggia bombing in Brescia five years later, but did nothing to alert the Italian authorities or to prevent the attacks from taking place. It also [alleged] that Pino Rauti [current leader of the MSI Fiamma-Tricolore party], a journalist and founder of the far-right Ordine Nuovo (new order) subversive organisation, received regular funding from a press officer at the US embassy in Rome. 'So even before the 'stabilising' plans that Atlantic circles had prepared for Italy became operational through the bombings, one of the leading members of the subversive right was literally in the pay of the American embassy in Rome,' the report says."[17]


General Maletti's testimony concerning alleged CIA involvement

General Gianadelio Maletti, commander of the counter-intelligence section of the Italian military intelligence service from 1971 to 1975, confirmed in March 2001 during the trials concerning the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombings that the CIA might have promoted terrorism in Italy. According to the Guardian, he said that...

"his men had discovered that a rightwing terrorist cell in the Venice region had been supplied with military explosives from Germany. Those explosives may have been obtained with the help of members of the US intelligence community, an indication that the Americans had gone beyond the infiltration and monitoring of extremist groups to instigating acts of violence"[18]

General Maletti told the Italian court that "the CIA, following the directives of its government, wanted to create an Italian nationalism capable of halting what it saw as a slide to the left and, for this purpose, it may have made use of rightwing terrorism," and continued on by declaring: "I believe this is what happened in other countries as well." Gianadelio Maletti also said to the court: "Don't forget that Nixon was in charge and Nixon was a strange man, a very intelligent politician but a man of rather unorthodox initiatives."

The Italian judges also recall that Maletti himself had withheld important information to the justice, concerning a 1973 attack on the Interior minister, Mariano Rumor (DC - 4 killed and 45 injured). According to the court, General Maletti knew in advance of the plan of the attacker, Gianfranco Bertoli, allegedly an anarchist but in reality a right-wing activist and a "long-standing SID informant" according to The Guardian, but had deliberately failed to inform the interior minister of it.[18][1]

Thirty years after the December 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing, which started the strategia della tensione, General Giandelio Maletti indicated that the massacre had been carried out by the Italian stay-behind army and right wing terrorists on orders of the CIA in order to discredit the PCI, which was negotiating the historic compromise with the Christian Democracy. Christian Democracy's leader and prime minister Aldo Moro’s 1978 murder, by the Second Red Brigades (BR) led by Mario Moretti, effectively put an end to the PCI’s possible participation to the government. According to The Guardian, the first reason of Gladio's discovery was "a group of judges examining letters uncovered in Milan during October in which the murdered Christian Democrat leader, Aldo Moro, said he feared a shadow organisation, alongside "other secret services of the West ... might be implicated in the destabilisation of our country".[3]


A quick chronology of Italy's "strategy of tension"

*1964 Operation Solo.

In 1964, Gladio was involved in a silent coup d'état when General Giovanni de Lorenzo in Operation Solo forced the Italian Socialists Ministers to leave the government.[19]

*1969 Piazza Fontana bombing.

According to Avanguardia Nazionale member Vincenzo Vinciguerra: "The December 1969 explosion was supposed to be the detonator which would have convinced the politic and military authorities to declare a state of emergency"[20]

*1970, Golpe Borghese.

In 1970, the failed coup attempt Golpe Borghese gathered, around fascist Junio Valerio Borghese, international terrorist Stefano Delle Chiaie and P2 headmaster Licio Gelli.

*1972 Gladio meeting.

According to The Guardian, "General Geraldo Serravalle, a former head of "Office R", told the terrorism commission that at a crucial Gladio meeting in 1972, at least half of the upper echelons "had the idea of attacking the communists before an invasion. They were preparing for civil war." Later, he put it more bluntly: "They were saying this: "Why wait for the invaders when we can make a preemptive attack now on the communists who would support the invader? The idea is now emerging of a Gladio web made up of semi-autonomous cadres which – although answerable to their secret service masters and ultimately to the NATO-CIA command – could initiate what they regarded as anti-communist operations by themselves, needing only sanction and funds from the existing 'official' Gladio column (...) General Nino Lugarese, head of SISMI from 1981-84 testified on the existence of a 'Super Gladio' of 800 men responsible for 'internal intervention' against domestic political targets."[3]

*May 31, 1972, Peteano massacre.

Magistrate Felice Casson discovered that "the explosives used in the attack came from one of 139 secret weapons depots of a secret army organized under the code name Operation Gladio".[12] Neofascist Vincenzo Vinciguerra confessed in 1984 to judge Felice Casson of having carried out the Peteano terrorist attack, in which three policemen died, and for which the Red Brigades (BR) had been blamed before. Vinciguerra explained during his trial how he had been helped by Italian secret services to escape the police and to fly away to Francoist Spain. However, he was abandoned by NATO as soon as he started talking about Gladio, declaring for example during his 1984 trial:

"with the massacre of Peteano and with all those that have followed, the knowledge should now be clear that there existed a real live structure, occult and hidden, with the capacity of giving a strategic direction to the outrages. [This structure] lies within the states itself. There exists in Italy a secret force parallel to the armed forces, composed of civilians and military men, in an anti-Soviet capacity, that is, to organise a resistance on Italian soil against a Russian army... A super-organization which, lacking a Soviet military invasion which might not happen, took up the task, on NATO's behalf, of preventing a slip to the left in the politcial balance of the country. This they did, with the assistance of the official secret services and the political and military forces..." He then said to The Guardian, in 1990: "I say that every single outrage that followed from 1969 fitted into a single, organised matrix... Avanguardia Nazionale, like Ordine Nuovo (the main right-wing terrorist group active during the 1970s), were being mobilised into the battle as part of an anti-communist strategy originating not with organisations deviant from the institutions of power, but from within the state itself, and specifically from within the ambit of the state's relations within the Atlantic Alliance."[3][1]

*November 23, 1973. Bombing of the plane Argo 16.

According to a December 1, 1990 article by The Independent, quoted by Statewatch, "General Geraldo Serravalle, head of Gladio from 1971 to 1974, told a television programme that he now thought the explosion aboard the plane Argo 16 on 23 November 1973 was probably the work of gladiatori who were refusing to hand over their clandestine arms. Until then it was widely believed the sabotage was carried out by Mossad, the Israeli foreign service, in retaliation for the pro-Libyan Italian government’s decision to expel, rather than try, five Arabs who had tried to blow up an Israeli airliner. The Arabs had been spirited out of the country on board the Argo 16.”[5]
*1974 Piazza della Loggia bombing, Italicus Expressen massacre, and arrest of Vito Miceli, chief of the Army intelligence service and member of P2, on charges of "conspiration against the state".

In 1974, a massacre committed by Ordine Nuovo, during an anti-fascist demonstration in Brescia, kills eight and injures 102. The same year, a bomb in the Rome to Munich train "Italicus Express" kills 12 and injures 48. Also in 1974, Vito Miceli, P2 member, chief of the SIOS (Servizio Informazioni), Army Intelligence's Service from 1969 and SID's head from 1970 to 1974, got arrested on charges of "conspiration against the state" concerning investigations about Rosa dei venti, a state-infiltrated group involved in terrorist acts. During his trial, he revealed the existence of the NATO stay-behind secret army.
*1977. Reorganization of Italian secret services following Vito Micelli's arrest.

In 1977, the secret services were thus reorganized in a democratic attempt. With law#801 of 24/10/1977, SID was divided into SISMI (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Militare), SISDE (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Democratica) and CESIS (Comitato Esecutivo per i Servizi di Informazione e Sicurezza). The CESIS was given a coordination role, led by the President of Council.

*1978's murder of Aldo Moro.

Prime minister Aldo Moro was murdered in May 1978 by the Second Red Brigades (BR), headed by Mario Moretti, in obscure circumstances. The head of the Italian secret services, accused of negligence, was a P2 member. The so-called "historic compromise" between the Christian-Democracy and the PCI was abandoned:
"As the conspiracy theorists would have it, Mr. Moro was allowed to be killed either with the acquiescence of people high in Italy’s political establishment, or at their instigation, because of the historic compromise he had made with the Communist Party" (The Independent, November 16, 1990, quoted by Statewatch[5])

"During his captivity, Aldo Moro wrote several letters to various political figures, including Giulio Andreotti. In October 1990, "a cache of previously unknown letters written by the former Prime Minister, Aldo Moro, just prior to his execution by Red Brigade terrorists in 1978... was discovered in a Milan apartment which had once been used as a Red Brigade hideout. One of those letters made reference to the involvement of both NATO and the CIA in an Italian-based secret service, 'parallel' army", wrote The Irish Times on November 15, 1990 (quoted by Statewatch,[5]). "This safe house had been thoroughly searched at the time by Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa, the head of counter-terrorism. How is it that the papers had not been revealed before?" asked The Independent on November 16, 1990.[5] Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa was murdered in 1982 (see below).

In May 1978, investigative journalist Mino Pecorelli thought that Aldo Moro's kidnapping had been organised by a "lucid superpower" and was inspired by the "logic of Yalta". He painted the figure of General Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa as "general Amen," explaining that it was him that, during Aldo Moro's kidnap, had informed Interior Minister Francesco Cossiga of the localization of the cave where Moro was detained. In 1978, Pecorelli wrote that Dalla Chiesa was in danger and would be assassinated (Dalla Chiesa was murdered four years later). After Aldo Moro's assassination, Mino Pecorelli published some confidential documents, mainly Moro's letters to his family. In a cryptic article published in May 1978, wrote The Guardian in May 2003, Pecorelli drew a connection between Gladio, NATO's stay-behind anti-communist organisation (which existence was publicly acknowledged by Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti in October 1990) and Moro's death. During his interrogation, Aldo Moro had referred to "NATO's anti-guerrilla activities."[21] Mino Pecorelli, who was on Licio Gelli's list of P2 members discovered in 1980, was assassinated on March 20, 1979. The ammunitions used, a very rare type, where the same as discovered in the Banda della Magliana 's weapons stock hidden in the Health Minister's basement. Pecorelli's assassination has been thought to be directly related to Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti, who was condemned to 20 years of prison for it in 2002 before having the sentence cancelled by the Supreme Court of Cassation in 2003.

*1980 Bologna massacre.

"The makings of the bomb... came from an arsenal used by Gladio... according to a parliamentary commission on terrorism... The suggested link with the Bologna massacre is potentially the most serious of all the accusations levelled against Gladio, and comes just two days after the Italian Prime Minister, Giulio Andreotti, cleared Gladio’s name in a speech to parliament, saying that the secret army did not drift from its formal Nato military brief", wrote The Guardian on January 16, 1991 (quoted by Statewatch[5]). In November 1995, Neo-Fascists terrorists Valerio Fioravanti and Francesca Mambro, members of the Nuclei Armati Revoluzionari (NAR), were convicted to life imprisonment as executors of the 1980 Bologna massacre. The NAR neofascist group worked in cooperation with the Banda della Magliana, a Mafia-linked gang which took over Rome's underground in the 1970s and was involved in various political events of the strategy of tension, including the Aldo Moro case, the 1979 assassination of Mino Pecorelli, a journalist who published articles alleging links between Prime minister Giulio Andreotti and the mafia, as well as the assassination of "God's Banker" Roberto Calvi in 1982. The investigations concerning the Bologna bombing proved Gladio's direct influence: Licio Gelli, P2's headmaster, received a sentence for investigation diversion, as well as Francesco Pazienza and SISMI officers Pietro Musumeci and Giuseppe Belmonte. Avanguardia Nazionale founder Stefano Delle Chiaie, who was involved in the Golpe Borghese in 1970, was also accused of involvement in the Bologna massacre[22][10]

*1982 murder of General Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa, head of counter-terrorism.

General Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa's 1982 murder, in Palermo, by Pino Greco, one of the Mafia Godfather Salvatore Riina's (aka Toto Riina) favorite hitmen, is allegedly part of the strategy of tension. Alberto Dalla Chiesa had arrested Red Brigades founders Renato Curcio and Alberto Franceschini in September, 1974, and was later charged of investigation concerning Aldo Moro. He had also found Aldo Moro's letters concerning Gladio.
*October 24, 1990. Giulio Andreotti’s acknowledgement of Operazione Gladio.

After the discovery by judge Felice Casson of documents on Gladio in the archives of the Italian military secret service in Rome, Giulio Andreotti, head of Italian government, revealed to the Chamber of deputies the existence of "Operazione Gladio" on October 24, 1990, insisting that Italy has not been the only country with secret "stay-behind" armies. He made clear that "each chief of government had been informed of the existence of Gladio". Former Socialist Prime Minister Bettino Craxi said that he had not been informed until he was confronted with a document on Gladio signed by himself while he was Prime Minister. Former Prime Minister Giovanni Spadolini (Republican Party), at the time President of the Senate, and former Prime Minister Arnaldo Forlani, at the time secretary of the ruling Christian Democratic Party claimed they remembered nothing. Spadolini stressed that there was a difference between what he knew as former Defence Secretary and what he knew as former Prime Minister. Only former Prime Minister Francesco Cossiga (DC) confirmed Andreotti's revelations, explaining that he was even "proud and happy" for his part in setting up Gladio as junior Defence Minister of the Christian Democratic Party. This lit up a political storm, requests were made for Cossiga's (Italian President since 1985) resignation or impeachment for high treason. He refused to testify to the investigating Senate committee. Cossiga narrowly escaped his impeachment by stepping down on April 1992, three months before his term expired.[23]

*1998. David Carrett, officer of the U.S. Navy, was indicted by magistrate Guido Salvini on charge of political and military espionage and his participation to the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing, among other events. Judge Guido Salvini also opened up a case against Sergio Minetto, Italian official for the US-NATO intelligence network, and pentito Carlo Digilio. La Repubblica underlined that Carlo Rocchi, CIA's man at Milan, was surprised in 1995 searching for information concerning Operation Gladio, thus demonstrating that all was not over.[20]

1969 Piazza Fontana bombing, which started Italy's anni di piombo, and the 1974 "Italicus Expressen" train bombing were also attributed to Gladio operatives. In 1975, Stefano Delle Chiaie met with Pinochet during Franco's funeral in Madrid, and would participate afterward in operation Condor, preparing for example the attempted murder of Bernardo Leighton, a Chilean Christian Democrat, or participating in the 1980 'Cocaine Coup' of Luis García Meza Tejada in Bolivia. In 1989, he was arrested in Caracas, Venezuela and extradited to Italy to stand trial for his role in the Piazza Fontana bombing. Despite his reputation, Delle Chiaie was acquitted by the Assize Court in Catanzaro in 1989, along with fellow accused Massimiliano Fachini (as yet no convictions have been made for the attack). According to Avanguardia Nazionale member Vincenzo Vinciguerra: "The December 1969 explosion was supposed to be the detonator which would have convinced the politic and military authorities to declare a state of emergency"[20]


The DSSA, another Gladio?

In July 2005, the Italian press revealed the existence of the Department of Anti-terrorism Strategic Studies (DSSA), a "parallel police" created by Gaetano Saya and Riccardo Sindoca, two leaders of the National Union of the Police Forces (UNPF), a trade-union present in all the state security forces. Both said they were former members of Gladio. According to the DSSA website — closed after these revelations — Fabrizio Quattrocchi, murdered in Iraq after being taken hostage, was there "for the DSSA". According to the Italian investigators, the DSSA was trying to obtain international and national recognition by intelligence agencies, in order to obtain finances for its parallel activities. Furthermore, Il Messaggero, quoted by The Independent, declared that, according to judicial sources, wiretaps suggested DSSA members had been planning to kidnap Cesare Battisti, a former communist activist. "We were seeing the genesis of something similar to the death squads in Argentina" (the AAA groups) the magistrate is reported to have said.[24]


Belgium

Belgian stay-behind network

After the 1966 retreat of France from NATO, the SHAPE headquarter was displaced to Mons in Belgium. In 1990, following France's denial of any "stay-behind" French army, Giulio Andreotti publicly said the last Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC) meeting, at which the French branch of Gladio was present, had been on October 23 and 24, 1990, under the presidency of Belgian General Van Calster, director of the Belgian military secret service SGR. In November, Guy Coëme, the Minister of the Defense, acknowledged the existence of a Belgium "stay-behind" army, lifting concerns about a similar implication in terrorist acts as in Italy. The same year, the European Parliament sharply condemned NATO and the United States in a resolution for having manipulated European politics with the stay-behind armies.[19]

New legislation governing intelligence agencies' missions and methods was passed in 1998, following two government inquiries and the creation of a permanent parliamentary committee in 1991, which was to bring them under the authority of Belgium's federal agencies. The Commission was created following events in the 1980s, which included the Brabant massacres and the activities of far right group Westland New Post.[25]


France

In 1947, Interior Minister Edouard Depreux revealed the existence of a secret stay-behind army in France codenamed "Plan Bleu". The next year, the "Western Union Clandestine Committee" (WUCC) was created to coordinate secret unorthodox warfare. In 1949, the WUCC was integrated into NATO, whose headquarters were established in France, under the name "Clandestine Planning Committee" (CPC). In 1958, NATO founded the Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC) to coordinate secret warfare. When NATO established new European headquarters in Brussels, the ACC, under the code name SDRA 11, was hidden within the Belgian military secret service SGR, which has its headquarters next to NATO.

The illegal Organisation armée secrète (OAS) was created with members of the French stay-behind army and officers from the French War in Vietnam. In 1961, the OAS staged a failed coup in Algiers against De Gaulle's government.[19]

La Rose des Vents and Arc-en-ciel ("Rainbow") network were part of Gladio. François de Grossouvre was Gladio's leader for the region around Lyon in France until his alleged suicide on April 7th, 1994. Captain Paul Barril, among others, said that Grossouvre was murdered.[26] In any case, Grossouvre would have asked Constantin Melnik, leader of the French secret services during the Algerian War of Independence (1954-62), to return to activity. He was living in comfortable exile in the US, where he maintained links with the Rand Corporation. Constantin Melnik is alleged to have been involved in the creation in 1952 of the Ordre Souverain du Temple Solaire, an ancestor of the Order of the Solar Temple, in which the SDECE (French former military intelligence agency) was interested.[27]


Denmark

The Danish stay-behind army was code-named Absalon, after a Danish archbishop, and led by E.J. Harder. It was hidden in the military secret service Forsvarets Efterretningstjeneste (FE). In 1978, William Colby, former director of the CIA, released his memoirs in which he described the setting-up of stay-behind armies in Scandinavia:

"The situation in each Scandinavian country was different. Norway and Denmark were NATO allies, Sweden held to the neutrality that had taken her through two world wars, and Finland were required to defer in its foreign policy to the Soviet power directly on its borders. Thus, in one set of these countries the governments themselves would build their own stay-behind nets, counting on activating them from exile to carry on the struggle. These nets had to be co-ordinated with NATO's plans, their radios had to be hooked to a future exile location, and the specialised equipment had to be secured from CIA and secretly cached in snowy hideouts for later use. In other set of countries, CIA would have to do the job alone or with, at best, "unofficial" local help, since the politics of those governments barred them from collaborating with NATO, and any exposure would arouse immediate protest from the local Communist press, Soviet diplomats and loyal Scandinavians who hoped that neutrality or nonalignment would allow them to slip through a World War III unharmed."[28]

On November 25, 1990, Danish daily newspaper Berlingske Tidende, quoted by Daniele Ganser (2005), confirmed William Colby's revelations, by a source named "Q":

"Colby's story is absolutely correct. Absalon was created in the early 1950s. Colby was a member of the world spanning laymen Catholic organisation Opus Dei, which, using a modern term, could be called right-wing. Opus Dei played a central role in the setting up of Gladio in the whole of Europe and also in Denmark... The leader of Gladio was Harder who was probably not a Catholic. But there are not many Catholics in Denmark and the basic elements making up the Danish Gladio were former [WW II] resistance people - former prisoners of Vestre Fængsel, Frøslevlejren, Neuengamme and also of the Danish Brigade."


Germany

Reinhard Gehlen, Nazi intelligence agent on the East front during the war, turned towards the US after the war, and set up the "Gehlen Organisation," which used many former Nazi party members for intelligence purpose in the frame of the Cold War. But alongside the Gehlen organisation, which became the nucleus of the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND, Federal Intelligence Service), West Germany's intelligence agency created in 1956, US intelligence also set up a German stay-behind network parallel (and juxtaposed) to the Gehlen Org (which also had a role in the organisation of the ODESSA network, used to exfiltrate Nazi war criminals). CIA documents released in June 2006 under the 1998 Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act, more than fifteen years after Prime minister Giulio Andreotti's revelations concerning Gladio, show that the CIA organized "stay-behind" networks of German agents between 1949 and 1955.[29]

In 1952, former SS officer Hans Otto revealed to the criminal police in Frankfurt the existence of the fascist German stay-behind army BDJ-TD. The arrested right-wing extremists were found non guilty under mysterious circumstances.[19]

Documents shown to the Italian parliamentary terrorism committee revealed that in the 1970s British and French officials involved in the network visited a training base in Germany built with US money.[30]

"According to a German television report, wrote The Guardian on November 17, 1990, the [German] section consisted of former SS and Waffen-SS officers as well as members of an extreme rightwing group, the Federation of German Youth, and drew up plans to assassinate leading figures of the opposition Social Democratic Party in the event of a Soviet-led invasion."[30]


CIA's documents released in June 2006

One network included Staff Sergent Heinrich Hoffman and Lieutenant Colonel Hans Rues, and another one, codenamed Kibitz-15, was run by Lieutenant Colonel Walter Kopp, a former Wehrmacht officer, described by his own North-American handlers as an "unreconstructed Nazi."[31] In an April 1953 CIA memo released in June 2006, the CIA headquarters wrote: "The present furore in Western Germany over the resurgence of the Nazi or neo-Nazi groups is a fair example — in miniature — of what we would be faced with." Therefore some of these networks were dismantled. These documents stated that the ex-Nazis were a complete failure in intelligence terms. According to Timothy Naftali, a US historian from the University of Virginia who reviewed the CIA documents then released, "The files show time and again that these people were more trouble than they were worth. The unreconstructed Nazis were always out for themselves, and they were using the West's lack of information about the Soviet Union to exploit it."[31] The US NARA Archives themselves stated in a 2002 communique, concerning Reinhard Gehlen's recruiting of former Nazis, that "Besides the troubling moral issues involved, these recruitments opened the West German government, and by extension the United States, to penetration by the Soviet intelligence services."[32]

Hans Globke, who had worked for Adolf Eichmann in the Jewish Affairs department and helped draft the 1935 Nuremberg laws, became Chancellor Konrad Adenauer's national security advisor in the 1960s, and "was the main liaison with the CIA and NATO" according to The Guardian.[31] A March 1958 memo from the German BND agency to the CIA wrote that Adolf Eichmann is "reported to have lived in Argentina under the alias CLEMENS since 1952." However, the CIA did not pass the information on to the Israeli MOSSAD, as it feared revelations concerning its use of former Nazis for intelligence purposes — Eichmann, who was in charge of the Jewish Affairs department, was abducted by the MOSSAD two years later. Among these information that might have been revealed by Eichmann were the ones concerning Hans Globke, CIA's liaison in West Germany. At the request of Bonn, the CIA persuaded Life magazine to delete any reference to Globke from Eichmann's memoirs, which it had bought from his family.[29]


BND secretary Heidrun Hofer's 1976 arrestation

In 1976, the secret service BND secretary Heidrun Hofer was arrested after having revealed the secrets of the German stay-behind army to her husband, who was a spy of the KGB.[19]


Norbert Juretzko's 2004 revelations

In 2004 the German spymaster Norbert Juretzko published a book about his work at the BND. He went into details about recruiting partisans for the German stay-behind network. He was sacked from BND following a secret trial against him, because the BND could not find out the real name of his Russian source "Rubezahl" whom he had recruited. A man with the name he put on file was arrested by the KGB following treason in the BND, but was obviously innocent, his name having been chosen at random from the public phone book by Juretzko.

According to Juretzko, the BND built up its branch of Gladio, but discovered after the fall of the German Democratic Republic that it was 100% known to the Stasi early on. When the network was dismantled, further odd details emerged. One fellow "spymaster" had kept the radio equipment in his cellar at home with his wife doing the engineering test call every 4 months, on the grounds that the equipment was too "valuable" to remain in civilian hands. Juretzko found out because this spymaster had dismantled his section of the network so quickly, there had been no time for measures such as recovering all caches of supplies. Civilians recruited as stay-behind partisans were equipped with a clandestine shortwave radio with a fixed frequency. It had a keyboard with encryption, making use of Morse code unnecessary. They had a cache of further equipment for signalling helicopters or submarines to drop special agents who were to stay in the partisan's homes while mounting sabotage operations against the communists.


The 1980 Oktoberfest bomb blast

Revelations of a witness in the investigation of the Oktoberfest bomb blast of 1980 in Munich lead to the conclusion that the explosives might have come from the German Neo-Nazi Heinz Lembke. Lembke later lead the police to his 33 hidden arm-caches near the village of Uelzen in the Lüneburger Heide, where huge amounts of military equipment were found. After Lembke had committed suicide in his prison cell shortly after announcing to provide names, this aspect was no longer investigated and Neo-Nazi Gundolf Köhler, who had died in the blast, was declared the lone perpetrator. Lembkes arms caches were supposed to be connected to Gladio by a number of researchers and journalists[33].


Official responses following Giulio Andreotti's revelations

The Government was very reluctant if not untruthful on occasion, to concede the existence of Gladio and the inherent breach of constitution in that all armed forces must be controlled by the people. Following Giulio Andreotti's 1990 public exposure of the secret armies, it declared that it disbanded its part of Gladio.


Greece

The aim of British Prime minister Winston Churchill was to prevent the communist-led EAM resistance movement from taking power after the end of World War II. After the suppression of a pro-EAM uprising in April 1944 among the Greek forces in Egypt, a new and firmly reliable unit was formed, the Third Greek Mountain Brigade, which excluded "almost all men with views ranging from moderately conservative to left wing"[34] After liberation in October 1944, EAM controlled most of the country. When it organized a demonstration in Athens on December 3, 1944 against British interference, members of rightist and pro-royalist paramilitary organizations, as well as "British troops and police with machine guns... posited on the rooftops", suddenly shot on the crowd, killing 25 protesters (including a six-year-old boy) and wounding 148.[35] This marked the outbreak of the Dekemvriana, and subsequently led to the Greek Civil War.

When Greece joined NATO in 1952, the country's special forces, the LOK (Lochoi Oreinōn Katadromōn, i.e. "Mountain Raiding Companies") were integrated into the European stay-behind network. The CIA and LOK reconfirmed on March 25, 1955 their mutual cooperation in a secret document signed by US General Trascott for the CIA, and Konstantinos Dovas, chief of staff of the Greek military. In addition to preparing for a Soviet invasion, the CIA instructed LOK to prevent a leftist coup. Former CIA agent Philip Agee, who was sharply criticized in the US for having revealed sensitive information, insisted that "paramilitary groups, directed by CIA officers, operated in the sixties throughout Europe [and he stressed that] perhaps no activity of the CIA could be as clearly linked to the possibility of internal subversion."[36]

The LOK was involved in the Greek military coup d'Etat on April 20, 1967, which took place one month before the scheduled national elections for which opinion polls predicted an overwhelming victory of the centrist Center Union of George and Andreas Papandreou. Under the command of paratrooper Lieutenant Colonel Costas Aslanides, the LOK took control of the Greek Defence Ministry while Brigadier General Sylianos Pattakos gained control over communication centers, the parliament, the royal palace, and according to detailed lists, arrested over 10,000 people. Phillips Talbot, the US ambassador in Athens, disapproved of the military coup which established the "Regime of the Colonels" (1969-1974), complaining that it represented "a rape of democracy" - to which Jack Maury, the CIA chief of station in Athens, answered: "How can you rape a *****?".[19]

Arrested and then exiled in Canada and Sweden, Andreas Papandreou later returned to Greece, where he won the 1981 election for Prime minister, forming the first socialist government of Greece's post-war history. According to his own testimony, he discovered the existence of the secret NATO army, then codenamed "Red Sheepskin", as acting prime minister in 1984 and had given orders to dissolve it.

Following Giulio Andreotti's revelations in 1990, the Greek defence minister confirmed that a branch of the network, known as Operation Sheepskin, operated in his country until 1988.[37] The socialist opposition called for a parliamentary investigation into the secret army and its alleged link to terrorism and the 1967 coup d'état. Public order minister Yannis Vassiliadis declared that there was no need to investigate such "fantasies" as "Sheepskin was one of 50 NATO plans which foresaw that when a country was occupied by an enemy there should be an organised resistance. It foresaw arms caches and officers who would form the nucleus of a guerilla war. In other words, it was a nationally justifiable act."

In December 2005, journalist Kleanthis Grivas published an article in To Proto Thema, a Greek Sunday newspaper, in which he accused "Sheepskin" for the assassination of CIA station chief Richard Welch in Athens in 1975, as well as the assassination of British military attaché Stephen Saunders in 2000. This was denied by the US State Department, who responded that "the Greek terrorist organization '17 November' was responsible for both assassinations", and that Grivas's central piece of evidence had been a document ("Westmoreland Field Manual") which the State department, as well as an independent Congressional inquiry had revealed to be a Soviet forgery.[38] The document in question, however, makes no specific mention of Greece, November 17th, nor Welch. The State Department also highlighted the fact that, in the case of Richard Welch, "Grivas bizarrely accuses the CIA of playing a role in the assassination of one of its own senior officials" while "Sheepskin" couldn't have assassinate Stephen Saunders for the simple reason, according to the US government, that "the Greek government stated it dismantled the “stay behind” network in 1988."[38]


The Netherlands

A large arms cache was discovered in 1983 near the village Velp. The government was forced to confirm that the arms were related to NATO planning for unorthodox warfare.[19]


Norway

In 1957, the director of the secret service NIS, Vilhelm Evang, protested strongly against the domestic subversion of his country by the United States and NATO and temporarily withdrew the Norwegian stay-behind army from the CPC meetings. In 1978, the police discovered a stay-behind arms cache at a mountain cabin and arrested Hans Otto Meyer, who revealed the Norwegian secret army.[19]


Portugal

Further information: Aginter Press
In 1966, the CIA set up Aginter Press which, under the direction of Captain Yves Guérin-Sérac (who had taken part in the founding of the OAS), ran a secret stay-behind army and trained its members in covert action techniques amounting to terrorism, including bombings, silent assassinations, subversion techniques, clandestine communication and infiltration and colonial warfare. Aginter Press was suspected of having assassinated General Humberto Delgado (1906-1965), founder of the Portuguese National Liberation Front against Salazar's dictatorship, as well as anti-colonialist leader Amilcar Cabral (1924-1973), founder of the PAIGC (African Party for the Independence of Guinea and Cape Verde) and Eduardo Mondlane, leader of the liberation movement FRELIMO (Frente de Libertação de Moçambique), in 1969.[39][19]


Turkey

See also: Multi-Party Period of Republic of Turkey and Deep state
In Turkey, the stay-behind army was known as "Counter-Guerrilla". Related to the Millî İstihbarat Teşkilâtı (MIT), the Turkish intelligence agency, it engaged in domestic terror, supporting, as in Italy, a strategy of tension, which led to two military coups d'état in which it was directly involved. In 1971, after a military coup d'état carried on March 12, the stay-behind army Counter-Guerrilla engaged in domestic terror and killed hundreds. The overall death-toll of the terror of the 1970s is estimated at 5,000, with right-wing and terrorism responsible for the most part. According to statistics published by the British Searchlight magazine (n°47, May 1979, p.6), in 1978 there were 3,319 fascist attacks, in which 831 were killed and 3,121 wounded. In 1977, Counter-Guerrilla took part on the May 1, Taksim Square massacre, while left-wing newspaper editor Abdi İpekçi was murdered in 1979 by Mehmet Ali Ağca, a Grey Wolves member who later tried to assassinate the Pope John Paul II in 1980. Counter-Guerrilla's commander, General Kenan Evren staged a military coup and seized power in 1980. The US-support of this coup was acknowledged by the CIA Ankara station chief Paul Henze. After the government was overthrown, Henze cabled Washington, saying, "our boys have done it". At the time there were some 1,700 Grey Wolves organizations in Turkey, with about 200,000 registered members and a million sympathisers. After being useful for the strategy of tension followed by Kenan Evren, the leader of the Counter-Guerrilla turned president outlawed the right-wing Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) and the Grey Wolves, its youth organization. The MHP had been founded in 1965 by Alparslan Türkeş, a member of the Counter-Guerrilla. Colonel Türkeş and other Grey Wolves were arrested. In its indictment of the MHP in May 1981, the Turkish military government charged 220 members of the MHP and its affiliates for 694 murders, according to Edward Herman and Frank Brodhead in The Rise and Fall of the Bulgarian Connection (New York, 1986, quoted by Ganser). However, Grey Wolves' imprisoned members were offered release if they accepted to fight the Kurdish minority and the PKK,[40] as well as the ASALA ("Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia"). They then went on to fight, with Counter-Guerrilla, Kurds, killing and torturing thousands in the 1980s, and also carrying false flag attacks in which the Counter-Guerrilla attacked villages, dressed up as PKK fighters, and raped and executed people randomly (Ganser, 2005).[41] The fact that Counter-Guerrilla had engaged in torture was confirmed by Talat Turhan, a retired Turkish lieutenant colonel. According to a December 5, 1990 article by the Swiss Neue Zürcher Zeitung, the Counter-Guerrilla had their headquarters in the building of the US DIA military secret service.[19] In addition, they carried out operations to assassinate the leader squad of ASALA, in which they succeeded.

Former Turkish prime minister Bülent Ecevit recalled he had learned of the existence of Turkish "stay-behind" armies for the first time in 1974. At the time, the commander of the Turkish army, General Semih Sancar, had allegedly informed him the US had financed the unit since the immediate post-war years, as well as the MIT, the Turkish intelligence agency. Ecevit declared he suspected Counter-Guerrilla's involvement in the 1977 Taksim Square massacre in Istanbul, during which snipers opened fire on a protest rally of 500 000 citizens, organized by trade unions on May 1, killing 38 and injuring hundred. In 1976, a demonstration gathering 100 000 against the domestic terror, for which Counter-Guerrilla was largely responsible, had already took place. The next year, the demonstrators were met with bullets. According to Ecevit, the shooting lasted for twenty minutes, yet several thousand policemen on the scene did not intervene. This mode of operation recalls the June 20, 1973 Ezeiza massacre in Buenos Aires, when the Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (aka Triple A), founded by José Lopez Rega (a P2 member), opened fire on the left-wing peronists... According to Kurtulus Turkish magazine (n°99, September 19, 1998 - quoted by Ganser, 2005), Turkish CIA agent Hiram Abas who "was closer than his own brother" to the CIA chief of station in Istanbul Duane 'Dewey' Clarridge (quotes from Clarridge's 1997 memoirs An Agent for All Seasons), was present on the May Day massacre. The Hotel International, from which the shots were fired, belonged to the ITT company, which had already been involved in financing the September 11, 1973 coup against Salvador Allende in Chile and was on good terms with the CIA. Hiram Abas had been trained in the US in covert action operations and as an MIT agent first gained notoriety in Beirut, where he cooperated with the Mossad from 1968 to 1971 and carried out attacks, "targeting left-wing youths in the Palestinian camps and receiving bounty for the results he achieved in actions" (Kurtulus n°99). With MIT agent Mehmet Eymür, later promoted to direct the MIT's department for counter-espionage, Abas also participated in the Kizildere massacre of March 30, 1972, when they killed seven left-wing militants.

Other massacres include the Bahçelievler Massacre (October 9, 1978 - 7 university students who were members of the Turkish Worker's Party were assassinated by far-right activists including Abdullah Çatlı and Haluk Kırcı), March 16 Massacre (March 16, 1978 - At the exit of the school, the police and fascists bombed and shot the leftist students in Beyazıt Square, killing 7 people), Kahramanmaraş Massacre (December 23-24, 1978 - 111 Alauoites were killed according to the official figures, the actual number was predicted to be much higher) and many more.

According to Le Monde diplomatique, Abdullah Çatlı, one of the leader of the Grey Wolves, "is reckoned to have been one of the main perpetrators of underground operations carried out by the Turkish branch of the Gladio organisation and had played a key role in the bloody events of the period 1976-1980 which paved the way for the military coup d’état of September 1980. As the young head of the far-right Grey Wolves militia, he had been accused, among other things, of the murder of seven left-wing students." He was seen in the company of Avanguardia Nazionale founder Stefano Delle Chiaie, while touring Latin America and on a visit to Miami in September 1982.[42]


The United Kingdom

In Great Britain, Prime Minister Winston Churchill created the Special Operations Executive (SOE) in 1940 to assist resistance movements and carry out subversive operations in enemy-held territory across occupied Europe. Guardian reporter David Pallister wrote in December 1990 that a guerrilla network with arms caches had been put in place following the fall of France. It included Brigadier "Mad Mike" Calvert, and was drawn from a special-forces ski battalion of the Scots Guards which was originally intended to fight in Nazi-occupied Finland.[16] Known as Auxiliary Units, they were headed by Major Colin Gubbins, an expert in guerrilla warfare who would later lead the SOE. The Auxiliary Units were attached to GHQ Home Forces, and concealed within the Home Guard. The units were created in preparation of a possible invasion of the British Isles by the Third Reich. These units were allegedly stood down only in 1944. Several of their members subsequently joined the Special Air Service and saw action in France in late 1944. The units' existence did not generally become known by the public until the 1990s though a book on the subject was published in 1968.[43]

After the end of World War II, the stay-behind armies were created with the experience and involvement of former SOE officers.[19] Following Giulio Andreotti's 0ctober 1990 revelations, General Sir John Hackett (1910-1997), former commander-in-chief of the British Army on the Rhine, declared on November 16, 1990 that a contingency plan involving "stay behind and resistance in depth" was drawn up after the war. The same week, Sir Anthony Farrar-Hockley (1924-2006), former commander-in-chief of NATO's Forces in Northern Europe from 1979 to 1982, declared to The Guardian that a secret arms network was established in Britain after the war.[30] General John Hackett had written in 1978 a novel, The Third World War: August 1985, which was a fictionalized scenario of a Soviet Army invasion of West Germany in 1985. The novel was followed in 1982 by The Third World War: The Untold Story, which elaborated on the original. Farrar-Hockley had aroused controversy in 1983 when he became involved in trying to organise a campaign for a new Home Guard against eventual Soviet invasion.[44]

Gladio membership included mostly ex-servicemen but also followers of Oswald Mosley's pre-war fascist movement.[citation needed] They were given a list of prominent suspected communist sympathizers, including politicians, journalists, trade union leaders, clergy and so on. The mission was, at the first sign of insurrection or invasion, to execute as many as these people as possible.[citation needed] At least one name on the execution list went on to become a Labour Prime Minister.[citation needed]. In January 1991, Searchlight magazine alleged that Column 88, a neo-nazi paramilitary organization formed in the early 1970s was part of Gladio.

Among the 200,000+ Polish ex-servicemen in the UK after the end of WW2, unable to return home for fear of communist repression, were conspiratorial groups maintaining combat readiness ready to fight for a free Poland should the Warsaw Pact attack western Europe. The 'Pogon' organisation, linked to the Polish Government-in-Exile held regular paramilitary exercises until the 1970s; many of its members were associated with the Polish scouting movement in the UK which had a strong paramilitary flavour. Links with 'Stay-behind' networks are strongly suspected.[citation needed].


General Serravale's revelations

General Gerardo Serravalle, who commanded the Italian Gladio from 1971 to 1974, related that "in the 1970s the members of the CPC [Coordination and Planning Committee] were the officers responsible for the secret structures of Great Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, Luxemburg, the Netherlands and Italy. These representatives of the secret structures met every year in one of the capitals... At the stay-behind meetings representatives of the CIA were always present. They had no voting rights and were from the CIA headquarters of the capital in which the meeting took place... members of the US Forces Europe Command were present, also without voting rights. ".[45] Next to the CPC a second secret command post was created in 1957, the Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC). According to the Belgian Parliamentary Committee on Gladio, the ACC was "responsible for coördinating the 'Stay-behind' networks in Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Holland, Norway, United Kingdom and the United States". During peacetime, the activities of the ACC "included elaborating the directives for the network, developing its clandestine capability and organising bases in Britain and the United States. In wartime, it was to plan stay-behind operations in conjunction with SHAPE; organisers were to activate clandestine bases and organise operations from there".[46] General Serravale declared to the Commissione Stragi headed by senator Giovanni Pellegrino that the Italian Gladio members trained at a military base in Britain.[30] Documents shown to the committee also revealed that British and French officials members of Gladio had visited in the 1970s a training base in Germany built with US money.[30]


The Guardian's November 1990 revelations concerning plans under Margaret Thatcher

The Guardian reported on November 5, 1990, that there had been a "secret attempt to revive elements of a parallel post-war plan relating to overseas operations" in the "early days of Mrs Thatcher's Conservative leadership". According to the British newspaper, "a group of former intelligence officers, inspired by the wartime Special Operations Executive, attempted to set up a secret unit as a kind of armed MI6 cell. Those behind the scheme included Airey Neave, Mrs Thatcher's close adviser who was killed in a terrorist attack in 1979, and George Kennedy Young, a former deputy chief of the Secret Intelligence Service, MI6." The newspaper stated that Thatcher had been "initially enthusiastic but dropped the idea after the scandal surrounding the attack by the French secret service on the Greenpeace ship, Rainbow Warrior, in New Zealand in 1985."[47] The Swiss branch, P-26, as well as Italian Gladio, had trained in the UK in the early 1970s.[47][48]

Parallel stay-behind operations in non-NATO countries

Austria

In Austria, the first secret stay-behind army was exposed in 1947. It had been set up by far-right Soucek and Rössner, who both insisted during their trial that "they were carrying out the secret operation with the full knowledge and support of the US and British occupying powers." Sentenced to death, they were then pardoned under mysterious circumstances by Chancellor Körner (1951-1957).

Franz Olah set up a new secret army codenamed Österreichischer Wander-Sport-und Geselligkeitsverein (OWSGV, literally "Austrian hiking, sports and society club"), with the cooperation of MI6 and CIA. He later explained that "we bought cars under this name. We installed communication centres in several regions of Austria", confirming that "special units were trained in the use of weapons and plastic explosives". He precised that "there must have been a couple of thousand people working for us... Only very, very highly positioned politicians and some members of the union knew about it".

In 1965, the police forces discovered a stay-behind arms cache in an old mine close to Windisch-Bleiberg and forced the British authorities to hand over a list with the location of 33 other caches in Austria.[19]

In 1990, when secret "stay-behind" armies were discovered all around Europe, the Austrian government said that no secret army had existed in the country. However, six years later, the Boston Globe revealed the existence of a secret CIA arms caches in Austria. Austrian President Thomas Klestil and Chancellor Franz Vranitzky insisted that they had known nothing of the existence of the secret army and demanded that the US launch a full-scale investigation into the violation of Austria's neutrality, which was denied by President Bill Clinton. State Department spokesman Nicholas Burns - appointed in August 2001 by President George Bush as the US Permanent Representative to the Atlantic treaty organization, where, as ambassador to NATO, he headed the combined State-Defense Department United States Mission to NATO and coordinated the NATO response to the September 11, 2001 attacks - insisted:

"The aim was noble, the aim was correct, to try to help Austria if it was under occupation. What went wrong is that successive Washington administrations simply decided not to talk to the Austrian government about it."[1]

Finland

In 1945, Interior Minister Yrjö Leino (a communist) exposed a secret stay-behind army which was closed down (so called Weapons Cache Case). This operation was organized by Finnish general staff officers (without foreign help) in 1944 to hide weapons in order to sustain a large-scale guerilla warfare in the event the Soviet Union tried to occupy Finland in the aftermath of the Continuation War. See also Operation Stella Polaris.

In 1991, the Swedish media claimed that a secret stay-behind army had existed in neutral Finland with an exile base in Stockholm. Finnish Defence Minister Elisabeth Rehn called the revelations "a fairy tale", adding cautiously "or at least an incredible story, of which I know nothing.".[19] However, in his memoirs, former CIA director William Colby described the setting-up of stay-behind armies in Scandinavian countries, including Finland, with or without the assistance of local governments, to prepare for a Soviet invasion.[49]


Spain

Main article: Montejurra

Note: Spain joined NATO in 1982.

In May 1976, a year after Franco's death, two left-wing Carlist members were shot down by far-right terrorists, among whom Gladio operative Stefano Delle Chiaie and members of the Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (Triple A), demonstrating connections between Gladio and the South American "Dirty War". This incident became known as the Montejurra massacre.[50] According to a report by the Italian CESIS (Executive Committee for Intelligence and Security Services), Carlo Cicuttini (who took part in the 1972 Peteano bombing in Italy alongside Vincenzo Vinciguerra), participated in the 1977 Massacre of Atocha in Madrid, killing five people (including several lawyers), members of the Workers' Commissions trade-unions closely linked with the Spanish Communist Party. Cicuttini was naturalized Spanish and exiled in Spain since 1972 (date of the Peteano bombing)[51]

Following Andreotti's 1990 revelations, Adolfo Suárez, Spain's first democratically elected Prime minister after Franco's death, denied ever having heard of Gladio.[52] President of the Spanish government in 1981-82, during the transition to democracy, Calvo Sotelo stated that Spain had not been informed of Gladio when it entered NATO. Asked about Gladio's relations to Franquist Spain, he said that such a network was not necessary under Franco, since "the regime itself was Gladio."[53]

According to General Fausto Fortunato, head of Italian SISMI from 1971 to 1974, France and the US had backed Spain's entrance to Gladio, but Italy would have opposed its veto to it. Following Andreotti's revelations, however, Narcís Serra, Spanish Minister of Defense, opened up an investigation concerning Spain's links to Gladio.[54][55] Furthermore, Canarias 7 newspaper revealed, quoting former Gladio agent Alberto Volo, who had a role in the revelations of the existence of the network in 1990, that a Gladio meeting had been organized in August 1991 in the Gran Canaria island.[56] Alberto Vollo also declared that as a Gladio operative, he had received trainings in Maspalomas, in the Gran Canaria island between the 1960s and the 1970s.[57] El País daily also revealed that the Gladio organization was suspected of having used former NASA installations in Maspalomas, in the Gran Canaria island, in the 1970s.[58]

André Moyen, former Belgian secret agent, also declared that Gladio had operated in Spain.[59] He said that Gladio had bases in Madrid, Barcelona, San Sebastián and the Canarias islands.


Sweden

In 1951, CIA agent William Colby, based at the CIA station in Stockholm supported the training of stay-behind armies in neutral Sweden and Finland and in the NATO members Norway and Denmark. In 1953, the police arrested right winger Otto Hallberg and discovered the Swedish stay-behind army. Hallberg was set free and charges against him were mysteriously dropped.[19]


Switzerland

Main article: Projekt-26

In Switzerland, a secret army named P26 was discovered, by coincidence months before Giulio Andreotti's October 1990 revelations. After the "secret files scandal" (Fichenaffäre), Swiss parliamentaries started investigating the Defense Department in the summer of 1990. According to Felix Würsten of the ETH Zurich, "P26 was not directly involved in the network of NATO's secret armies but it had close contact to MI6.[60]" Daniele Ganser (ETH Zurich) wrote in the Intelligence and National Security review that "following the discovery of the stay-behind armies across Western Europe in late 1990, Swiss and international security researchers found themselves confronted with two clear-cut questions: Did Switzerland also operate a secret stay-behind army? And if yes, was it part of NATO's stay-behind network? The answer to the first question is clearly yes... The answer to the second question remains disputed..."[61]

Swiss Major Hans von Dach published in 1958 Der totale Widerstand, Kleinkriegsanleitung für jedermann ("Total Resistance," Bienne, 1958) concerning guerrilla warfare, a book of 180 pages about passive and active resistance to a foreign invasion, including detailed instructions on sabotage, clandestinity, methods to dissimulate weapons, struggle against police moles, etc.[62]

In 1990, Colonel Herbert Alboth, a former commander of the Swiss secret stay-behind army P26 declared in a confidential letter to the Defence Department that he was willing to reveal "the whole truth". He was later found in his house, stabbed with his own military bayonet. The detailed parliamentary report on the Swiss secret army was presented to the public on November 17, 1990.[19] According to The Guardian, "P26 was backed by P27, a private foreign intelligence agency funded partly by the government, and by a special unit of Swiss army intelligence which had built up files on nearly 8,000 "suspect persons" including "leftists", "bill stickers", "Jehovah's witnesses", people with "abnormal tendencies" and anti-nuclear demonstrators. On November 14, the Swiss government hurriedly dissolved P26 — the head of which, it emerged, had been paid £100,000 a year."[63]

In 1991, a report by Swiss magistrate Pierre Cornu was released by the Swiss defence ministry. It said that P26 was without "political or legal legitimacy", and described the group's collaboration with British secret services as "intense". "Unknown to the Swiss government, British officials signed agreements with the organisation, called P26, to provide training in combat, communications, and sabotage. The latest agreement was signed in 1987… P26 cadres participated regularly in training exercises in Britain… British advisers — possibly from the SAS — visited secret training establishments in Switzerland." P26 was led by Efrem Cattelan, known to British intelligence.[64]

In a 2005 conference presenting Daniele Ganser's research on Gladio, Hans Senn, General Chief of Staff of the Swiss Army between 1977 and 1980, explained how he was informed of the existence of a secret organisation in the middle of his term of office. According to him, it already became clear in 1980 in the wake of the Schilling/Bachmann affair that there was also a secret group in Switzerland. But former MP, Helmut Hubacher, President of the Social Democratic Party from 1975 to 1990, declared that although it had been known that "special services" existed within the army, as a politician he never at any time could have known that the secret army, P26 was behind this. Hubacher pointed out that the President of the parliamentary investigation into P26 (PUK-EMD), the right-wing politician from Appenzell and member of the Council of States for that Canton, Carlo Schmid, had suffered "like a dog" during the commission's investigations. Carlo Schmid declared to the press: "I was schocked that something like that is at all possible," and said to the press he was glad to leave the "conspirational atmosphere" which had weighted upon him like a "black shadow" during the investigations.[65] Hubacher found it especially disturbing that, apart from its official mandate of organizing resistance in case of a Soviet invasion, P26 had also a mandate to become active should the left succeed in achieving a parliamentary majority.[60]

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
Reply

wilberhum
05-20-2007, 03:59 AM
Wow, what a great past job.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-20-2007, 05:10 AM
Attention all Gladio operatives and closet Free-Mason stay-behind soldiers!


Tune your decoder rings to Krypton Oglala Ophelia Krypton on my mark.....mark!


Klaatu Barada Nicto
Reply

Muezzin
05-20-2007, 01:03 PM
Unless this thread gets back to the topic it was discussing, I will lock it.
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Unless this thread gets back to the topic it was discussing, I will lock it.
:sl:

Sorry about that...
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Unless this thread gets back to the topic it was discussing, I will lock it.
:sl:

BTW, can you transfer all my posts that don't deal with Al Qaeda/Iraq directly, and create a new thread titled :"State-Sponsored Terrorism, & False Flag Operations?"
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-20-2007, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
The weapon used in the video was and Ak or AR, it was not Us troops or personel, it was either Iraqi security forces or terrorist or some random maniac
Your almighty word is not good enough. I have proved via the military audit that the U.S. did in fact supply this weapon (among others) to Iraq using IRRF funds. The DoD handled the weapons, distributed them and provided training for them. They don't have a problem admitting that, so you can deny, deny deny all you want... but unless you come up with physical proof that it was not US troops or personnel, but rather Iraqi security or terrorists... we have nothing more to say to each other.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
05-20-2007, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Your almighty word is not good enough. I have proved via the military audit that the U.S. did in fact supply this weapon (among others) to Iraq using IRRF funds. The DoD handled the weapons, distributed them and provided training for them. They don't have a problem admitting that, so you can deny, deny deny all you want... but unless you come up with physical proof that it was not US troops or personnel, but rather Iraqi security or terrorists... we have nothing more to say to each other.

The Ninth Scribe
It is amazing that you still are trying to deny this, the documents you supplied show that the US supplied the AK 47 to iraqi security personel, these are Iraqis, not US troops or contractors. I dont have a problem admitting that the US has issued cheap out of date weapons to a country where we have no idea who is on our side. But the issue here is about the video posted to represent US troops using this weapon. The US does not use this weapon, it is simple as that, provide all the "evidence" you want about the us supplying iraqi police with them, that is fine and true. Contractors and US military servicemen dont use the weapon. i already told you the weapons our troops use, if you wish to dispute it then please have a great time, but at least provide proof. I am not going to do it because I know I am right, you are the one trying to prove otherwise, so then do it, prove me wrong.
Here is a great list of weapons used by servicemen in Iraq today, please not the Ak and AR are not listed, your turn or would you like to admit your error now?

http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csi/satoc.htm
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
05-22-2007, 04:31 PM
My point is the AK47s were not purchased on a terrorist black market and U.S. troops did have access to these weapons because they shipped, distributed and trained Iraqis to use said weapons so, for those reasons, I do not accept your assumption that the video was a fraud because Americans simply wouldn't be using said weapons. I am not convinced, especially considering the fact that American fraud in Iraq is well documented. That is my position.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
05-22-2007, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
My point is the AK47s were not purchased on a terrorist black market and U.S. troops did have access to these weapons because they shipped, distributed and trained Iraqis to use said weapons so, for those reasons, I do not accept your assumption that the video was a fraud because Americans simply wouldn't be using said weapons. I am not convinced, especially considering the fact that American fraud in Iraq is well documented. That is my position.

The Ninth Scribe
That is fine to be your position, and I can respect that, but American troops do not use this guns, which is what I thought our whole little tish tosh here was about. Yes the US sends this weapon to Iraqi security forces, we also gave a load of them to the Afghans when they were fighting Russia. Also keep in mind that Iran, the Saudis and Russia have widely distributed this weapon througout the middle east. Fact is, you can not prove 100% that these were not american soldiers in the video, but any reasonable person, when looking at the type of weapon used, the overlay of American music on the video, the type of vehicle that is being traveled in (just judging from the rear window), the fact that the people are not shown or heard as is typical of a video like this with americans, would say that it is more probable that these people are either terrorists or Iraqi security forces. My position is this is a terrorist group spreading propoganda and anti americanism through a video created by themselves.
Reply

Keltoi
05-22-2007, 06:22 PM
It most certainly wasn't a humvee they were driving.
Reply

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