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Caesar
07-03-2007, 04:14 AM
I'd like to present a couple of scientific errors in Islam and see what your thoughts are. I will post examples from hadeeth and tafsir. My intention truly isn't to offend anyone. I am critical of Christianity and other religions just like I am of Islam.

Let's begin...

Al-Tabari:

Meaning of Surah 68:1. (Same interpretation as Ibn Kathir)

Someone might say: If it is as you have described, namely, that God created the earth before the heaven, then what is the meaning of the statement of Ibn ‘Abbas told all of you by Wasil b. ‘Abd al-A‘la al-Asadi- Muhammad b. Fudayl- al-A‘mash- Abu Zabyan- Ibn ‘Abbas: The first thing God created is the Pen. God then said to it: Write!, whereupon the Pen asked: What shall I write, my lord! God replied: Write what is predestined! He continued: And the Pen proceeded to (write) whatever is predestined and gong to be to the Coming of the Hour. God then lifted up the water vapor and split the heavens off from it. Then God created THE FISH (nun), AND THE EARTH WAS SPREAD OUT UPON ITS BACK. The fish became agitated, with the result that the earth was shaken up. It was steadied BY MEANS OF THE MOUNTAINS, for they indeed proudly (tower) over the earth.

According to Ibn al-Muthanna - Ibn Abi ‘Adi - Shu‘bah - Sulayman (al-A‘mash?) - Abu Zabyan - Ibn ‘Abbas: The first (thing) created by God is the Pen. It proceeded to (write) whatever is going to be. (God) then lifted up the water vapor, and the heavens were created from it. Then He created the fish, and the earth was spread out on its back. The fish moved, with the result that the earth was shaken up. It was steadied by means of the mountains, for the mountains indeed proudly (tower) over the earth. So he said, and he recited: "Nun. By the Pen and what they write."

According to Ibn Humayd - Jarir (b. ‘Abd al-Hamid) - ‘Ata’ b. al-Sa’ib - Abu al-Duha Muslim b. Subayh - Ibn ‘Abbas: The first thing created by God is the Pen. God said to it: Write!, and it wrote whatever is going to be until the Coming of the Hour. Then God created the fish. Then he heaped up the earth upon it.

Supposedly the above is a sound tradition as reported by Ibn 'Abbas. Let's go on...

Al-Qurtubi:

Narrated by Al-Walid Ibn Muslim, narrated by Malik Ibn Ans, narrated by Sumay son of Abu Bakir, narrated by Abu Salih Al-Samaan, narrated by Abu Hurayrah who related that he heard the prophet - peace be upon him – say, "The first thing Allah created was the pen, then He created the ‘Nun’ which is an inkwell. This is what Allah stated (in sura 68:1) ‘Nun and the Pen.’ And He said to it, ‘Write’. So the pen wrote all that will be until judgment day. Then Allah created the Nun (the whale) above the waters AND HE PRESSED THE EARTH INTO IS BACK. He (Allah) then said to the pen ‘Write.’ The pen asked ‘What shall I write?’ Allah replied, ‘Write what was and what will be until judgment day; whether deed, reward, consequence and punishment- until judgment day.’ Thus the pen wrote what shall be until judgment day. Allah then placed a seal over the pen and it will not talk until judgment day. Then Allah created the mind and said, ‘By my Glory, I will establish you in those whom you love and I will take you away from those whom you despise.’"

Mujahid related that ‘Nun’ is the whale that is underneath the seventh earth. He stated that the ‘Pen’ is what was used to write ‘Al-Thikir’ (The Remembrance - Quran). Likewise, it was also narrated by Mukatil, Murrah Al-Hamdani, Ata’ Al-Kharasani, Al Suddi and Al-Kalbi who all said, "Nun is the whale upon which all the earths are placed."

Al-Tabari:

According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: They are seven earths that are FLAT and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean. (Ibid., pp. 207-208)

TAFSIR IBN ABBAS

And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said regarding the interpretation of Allah's saying (Nun): '(Nun) He says: Allah swears by the Nun, which is the whale that carries the earths on its back while in Water, and beneath which is the Bull and under the Bull is the Rock and under the Rock is the Dust and none knows what is under the Dust save Allah. The name of the whale is Liwash, and it is said its name is Lutiaya'; the name of the bull is Bahamut, and some say its name is Talhut or Liyona. The whale is in a sea called 'Adwad, and it is like a small bull in a huge sea. The sea is in a hollowed rock whereby there is 4,000 cracks, and from each crack water springs out to the earth. It is also said that Nun is one of the names of the Lord; it stands for the letter Nun in Allah's name al-Rahman (the Beneficent); and it is also said that a Nun is an inkwell. (By the pen) Allah swore by the pen. This pen is made of light and its height is equal to the distance between Heaven and earth. It is with this pen that the Wise Remembrance, i.e. the Guarded Tablet, was written. It is also said that the pen is one of the angels by whom Allah has sworn, (and that which they write (therewith)) and Allah also swore by what the angels write down of the works of the children of Adam.

And finally, a really interesting one:

Abu Yakthan and Al-Waqidi stated that the name (of the whale) is ‘Leotha’; Whereas Kab stated that its name is ‘Lo-tho-tha’ or ‘Bil-Ha-motha.’ Kab said, "Satan crept up to the whale, on whom the seven earths are placed, and whispered into its heart saying, ‘Do you realize what is on your back, Oh Lo-tho-tha of beasts and plants and humans and others? If you are annoyed with them, you can throw them all off your back.’ So Lo-tho-tha intended to do what was suggested (by Satan) but Allah sent the whale a reptile that crawled through into its blowhole and reached its brain. The whale then cried to Allah –may He be glorified and honored – and He gave permission for the reptile to exit (the whale)." Kab continued and said, "By Allah, the whale stares at the reptile and the reptile stares at the whale, and if the whale intends to do (what Satan suggested) the reptile would return to the place it was before.

What are your thoughts? Are these sources wrong or is science wrong? Does the earth really rest on a fish? Are there really 7 flat earths? How can these statements be divine inspiration if they contradict science completely one hundred percent?

Let's get the discussion started.

Caesar
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Abdul Fattah
07-09-2007, 07:27 PM
Sorry your thread got approved so late. Been busy :)

regarding the ayath 68:1, the tafsir you gave seems unauthentic. first of al nun is not a name of a fish but it's just a letter. Various surah's of the Qur'an begin with lettres, like alif lam min, ya sin, and so on the meaning of it is unknown to mankind.

Here is ibn kathir's tafsir about the specific verse:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

[ن وَالْقَلَمِ وَمَا يَسْطُرُونَ - مَآ أَنتَ بِنِعْمَةِ رَبِّكَ بِمَجْنُونٍ - وَإِنَّ لَكَ لاّجْراً غَيْرَ مَمْنُونٍ - وَإِنَّكَ لَعَلَى خُلُقٍ عَظِيمٍ - فَسَتُبْصِرُ وَيُبْصِرُونَ - بِأَيِّكُمُ الْمَفْتُونُ - إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ ]

(1. Nun. By the pen and by what they Yastur.) (2. You, by the grace of your Lord, are not insane.) (3. And verily, for you will be reward that is not Mamnun.) (4. And verily, you are on an exalted character.) (5. You will see, and they will see,) (6. Which of you is afflicted with madness.) (7. Verily, your Lord is the best Knower of him who has gone astray from His path, and He is the best Knower of those who are guided.) We have already discussed the special letters of the Arabic alphabet at the beginning of Surat Al-Baqarah. Thus, Allah's saying,

[ن]

(Nun), is like Allah's saying,

[ص]

(Sad), and Allah's saying,

[ق]

(Qaf), and similar to them from the individual letters that appear at the beginning of Qur'anic chapters. This has been discussed at length previously and there is no need to repeat it here.
I will copy paste those "previous discussions" here:

The Discussion of the Individual Letters

The individual letters in the beginning of some Surahs are among those things whose knowledge Allah has kept only for Himself. This was reported from Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Uthman, `Ali and Ibn Mas`ud. It was said that these letters are the names of some of the Surahs. It was also said that they are the beginnings that Allah chose to start the Surahs of the Qur'an with. Khasif stated that Mujahid said, "The beginnings of the Surahs, such as Qaf, Sad, Ta Sin Mim and Alif Lam Ra, are just some letters of the alphabet.'' Some linguists also stated that they are letters of the alphabet and that Allah simply did not cite the entire alphabet of twenty-eight letters. For instance, they said, one might say, "My son recites Alif, Ba, Ta, Tha... '' he means the entire alphabet although he stops before mentioning the rest of it. This opinion was mentioned by Ibn Jarir.

The Letters at the Beginning of Surahs

If one removes the repetitive letters, then the number of letters mentioned at the beginning of the Surahs is fourteen: Alif, Lam, Mim, Sad, Ra, Kaf, Ha, Ya, `Ayn, Ta, Sin, Ha, Qaf, Nun.

So glorious is He Who made everything subtly reflect His wisdom.

Moreover, the scholars said, "There is no doubt that Allah did not reveal these letters for jest and play.'' Some ignorant people said that some of the Qur'an does not mean anything, (meaning, such as these letters) thus committing a major mistake. On the contrary, these letters carry a specific meaning. Further, if we find an authentic narration leading to the Prophet that explains these letters, we will embrace the Prophet's statement. Otherwise, we will stop where we were made to stop and will proclaim,

[ءَامَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا]

(We believe in it; all of it (clear and unclear verses) is from our Lord) (3:7).

The scholars did not agree on one opinion or explanation regarding this subject. Therefore, whoever thinks that one scholar's opinion is correct, he is obliged to follow it, otherwise it is better to refrain from making any judgment on this matter. Allah knows best.

These Letters testify to the Miraculous Qur'an

The wisdom behind mentioning these letters in the beginning of the Surahs, regardless of the exact meanings of these letters, is that they testify to the miracle of the Qur'an. Indeed, the servants are unable to produce something like the Qur'an, although it is comprised of the same letters with which they speak to each other. This opinion was mentioned by Ar-Razi in his Tafsir who related it to Al-Mubarrid and several other scholars. Al-Qurtubi also related this opinion to Al-Farra' and Qutrub. Az-Zamakhshari agreed with this opinion in his book, Al-Kashshaf. In addition, the Imam and scholar Abu Al-`Abbas Ibn Taymiyyah and our Shaykh Al-Hafiz Abu Al-Hajjaj Al-Mizzi agreed with this opinion. Al-Mizzi told me that it is also the opinion of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah. KAz-Zamakhshari said that these letters, "Were not all mentioned once in the beginning of the Qur'an. Rather, they were repeated so that the challenge (against the creation) is more daring. Similarly, several stories were mentioned repeatedly in the Qur'an, and also the challenge was repeated in various areas (i.e., to produce something like the Qur'an). Sometimes, one letter at a time was mentioned, such as Sad, Nun and Qaf. Sometimes two letters were mentioned, such as

[حـم ]

(Ha Mim) (44:1) Sometimes, three letters were mentioned, such as,

[الم ]

(Alif Lam Mim (2: 1)) and four letters, such as,

[المر]

(`Alif Lam Mim Ra) (13:1), and

[المص ]

(Alif Lam Mim Sad) (7:1).

Sometimes, five letters were mentioned, such as,

[كهيعص ]

(Kaf Ha Ya `Ayn Sad) (19:1), and;

[حـم - تَنزِيلُ الْكِتَـبِ مِنَ اللَّهِ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ ]

(Ha Mim. `Ayn Sin Qaf) (42:1-2).

This is because the words that are used in speech are usually comprised of one, two, three, four, or five letters.''

Every Surah that begins with these letters demonstrates the Qur'an's miracle and magnificence, and this fact is known by those well-versed in such matters. The count of these Surahs is twenty-nine. For instance, Allah said,

[الم ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ]

(Alif Lam Mim) This is the Book (the Qur'an), wherein there is no doubt (2:1-2),

[الم - ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَـبَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ]

(Alif Lam Mim. Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyuum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists). It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it.) (3:1-3), and,

[المص كِتَـبٌ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ فَلاَ يَكُن فِى صَدْرِكَ حَرَجٌ مِّنْهُ]

(Alif Lam Mim Sad. (This is the) Book (the Qur'an) sent down unto you (O Muhammad ), so let not your breast be narrow therefrom) (7:1-2).

Also, Allah said,

[الر كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَـهُ إِلَيْكَ لِتُخْرِجَ النَّاسَ مِنَ الظُّلُمَـتِ إِلَى النُّورِ بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ]

(Alif Lam Ra. (This is) a Book which We have revealed unto you (O Muhammad ) in order that you might lead mankind out of darkness (of disbelief and polytheism) into the light (of belief in the Oneness of Allah and Islamic Monotheism) by their Lord's leave) (14:1),

[الم - ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ ]

(Alif Lam Mim. The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) in which there is no doubt, is from the Lord of the `Alamin (mankind, Jinn and all that exists)!) (32:1-2),

[حـم - تَنزِيلُ الْكِتَـبِ مِنَ اللَّهِ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ ]

(Ha Mim. A revelation from (Allah) the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful) (41:1-2), and,

[حـم - تَنزِيلُ الْكِتَـبِ مِنَ اللَّهِ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ - غَافِرِ الذَّنبِ وَقَابِلِ التَّوْبِ شَدِيدِ الْعِقَابِ ذِى الطَّوْلِ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ إِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ ]

(Ha Mim. `Ain Sin Qaf. Likewise Allah, the Almighty, the Wise sends revelation to you (O Muhammad ) as (He sent revelation to) those before you.) (42:1-3).

There are several other Ayat that testify to what we have mentioned above, and Allah knows best.

Now that being said I will go back to the tafsir of 68:1
The Explanation of the Pen Concerning

Allah's statement,

[وَالْقَلَمِ]

(By the pen) The apparent meaning is that this refers to the actual pen that is used to write. This is like Allah's saying,

[اقْرَأْ وَرَبُّكَ الاٌّكْرَمُ - الَّذِى عَلَّمَ بِالْقَلَمِ - عَلَّمَ الإِنسَـنَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ ]

(Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. Who has taught by the pen. He has taught man that which he knew not.) (96:3-5) Therefore, this statement is Allah's swearing and alerting His creatures to what He has favored them with by teaching them the skill of writing, through which knowledge is attained. Thus, Allah continues by saying,

[وَمَا يَسْطُرُونَ]

(and by what they Yastur.) Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and Qatadah all said that this means, "what they write.'' As-Suddi said, "The angels and the deeds of the servants they record.'' Others said, "Rather, what is meant here is the pen which Allah caused to write the decree when He wrote the decrees of all creation, and this took place fifty-thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.'' For this, they present Hadiths that have been reported about the Pen. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded from Al-Walid bin `Ubadah bin As-Samit that he said, "My father called for me when he was dying and he said to me: `Verily, I heard the Messenger of Allah say,

«إِنَّ أَوَّلَ مَا خَلَقَ اللهُ الْقَلَمُ فَقَالَ لَهُ: اكْتُبْ، قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ وَمَا أَكْتُبُ؟ قَالَ: اكْتُبِ الْقَدَرَ وَمَا هُوَ كَائِنٌ إِلَى الْأَبَد»

(Verily, the first of what Allah created was the Pen, and He said to it: "Write.'' The Pen said: "O my Lord, what shall I write'' He said: "Write the decree and whatever will throughout eternity.'')'' This Hadith has been recorded by Imam Ahmad through various routes of transmission. At-Tirmidhi also recorded it from a Hadith of Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi and he (At-Tirmidhi) said about it, "Hasan Sahih, Gharib.''

Swearing by the Pen refers to the Greatness of the Prophet
Allah says,

[مَآ أَنتَ بِنِعْمَةِ رَبِّكَ بِمَجْنُونٍ ]

(You, by the grace of your Lord, are not insane.) meaning -- and all praise is due to Allah -- `you are not crazy as the ignorant among your people claim. They are those who deny the guidance and the clear truth that you have come with. Therefore, they attribute madness to you because of it.'

[وَإِنَّ لَكَ لاّجْراً غَيْرَ مَمْنُونٍ ]

(And verily, for you will be reward that is not Mamnun.) meaning, `for you is the great reward, and abundant blessings which will never be cut off or perish, because you conveyed the Message of your Lord to creation, and you were patient with their abuse.' The meaning of:

[غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ]

(not Mamnun) is that it will not be cut off. This is similar to Allah's statement,

[عَطَآءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ]

(a gift without an end.) (11:108) and His statement,

[فَلَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ]

(Then they shall have a reward without end.) (95:6) Mujahid said,

[غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ]

(Without Mamnun) means "Without reckoning.'' And this refers back to what we have said before

source: http://www.tafsir.com
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- Qatada -
07-09-2007, 07:47 PM
I think he doesn't understand :) the Qur'an is different to tafsir. He hasn't quoted Qur'an at all, just different tafsirs. So the title should really be 'Scientific inaccuracies in some Tafsirs?' lol, not Qur'an.



Peace.
Reply

Muslim Knight
07-10-2007, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
I think he doesn't understand :) the Qur'an is different to tafsir. He hasn't quoted Qur'an at all, just different tafsirs. So the title should really be 'Scientific inaccuracies in some Tafsirs?' lol, not Qur'an.



Peace.
He did say Scientific inaccuracies in Islam and not Quran nor Tafsir. But he solely mentioned weaknesses in Tafsir and not other sources.
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Sunnih
07-10-2007, 10:24 PM
Lol. Not only is he quoting from the mufasireen but note also that what he is refering to the source comes from the israeliates and it is known that Ibn Abass used to narrate from them (if we suppose that this narration from him is authentic). Therefore the correct title would be: "The scientific mistakes (inaquracies) in the sayings of the israeli scriptures".
Reply

ranma1/2
07-10-2007, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
He did say Scientific inaccuracies in Islam and not Quran nor Tafsir. But he solely mentioned weaknesses in Tafsir and not other sources.
so what is Tafsir?
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Muslim Knight
07-11-2007, 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
so what is Tafsir?
Tafsir is exegesis of the Quran. Explanation of the verses of the Quran by scholars with knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah.
Reply

Malaikah
07-11-2007, 02:38 AM
Hi Caesar.

Did you get these quotes from the actual books of the scholars, or from some website? Just that it is worth checking that the companions did actually say these things before we even bother discussing it.

None of the sayings mentioned say that they heard this information from the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon hm).
Reply

north_malaysian
07-11-2007, 02:44 AM
What a whale, a reptile that crept to the whale's blowhole, a bull and a satan have to do with the creation of the earth? ^o)

Never heard of those things....
Reply

ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Tafsir is exegesis of the Quran. Explanation of the verses of the Quran by scholars with knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah.
isnt this the same thing many muslims use when they try to give examples of science in the quran?
Reply

back_to_faith
07-11-2007, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
isnt this the same thing many muslims use when they try to give examples of science in the quran?
If me as a muslim would try to give examples of science in the quran,I would't use any Tafseer as my primary source

for example: If I read (Then Allah created the Nun (the whale) above the waters AND HE PRESSED THE EARTH INTO IS BACK.)

I would ask myself ,where in the Quran it says that (Nun) is a whale!!

where is it scientificaly approved that ((the whale) above the waters AND THE EARTH INTO IS BACK.)

the matter is different if there is a scientific fact which was proved by modern science,and the Quran mentions it..
as

The Quran on Human Embryonic Development

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm


just one example of how accurate Quranic description of Modern science.


Man errs,God not
Reply

ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by back_to_faith
If me as a muslim would try to give examples of science in the quran,I would't use any Tafseer as my primary source

for example: If I read (Then Allah created the Nun (the whale) above the waters AND HE PRESSED THE EARTH INTO IS BACK.)

I would ask myself ,where in the Quran it says that (Nun) is a whale!!

where is it scientificaly approved that ((the whale) above the waters AND THE EARTH INTO IS BACK.)

the matter is different if there is a scientific fact which was proved by modern science,and the Quran mentions it..
as

The Quran on Human Embryonic Development

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm


just one example of how accurate Quranic description of Modern science.


Man errs,God not
can you give the verse? and who decided it translates as how you translate it?
Reply

back_to_faith
07-11-2007, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
can you give the verse? and who decided it translates as how you translate it?
Greetings

I don't think you never read it

It seems you feel like debating the meaning of the verse in Arabic.....If so then let me give you the meaning of the verse ,and will never skip any meaning of the words as follows:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)...
(Quran, 23:12-14)


I promise you ,never to claim that according to the previous translation ..there is a mistake or a meaning that I skip or prefer another meaning.


peace
Reply

ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by back_to_faith
Greetings

I don't think you never read it

It seems you feel like debating the meaning of the verse in Arabic.....If so then let me give you the meaning of the verse ,and will never skip any meaning of the words as follows:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)...
(Quran, 23:12-14)


I promise you ,never to claim that according to the previous translation ..there is a mistake or a meaning that I skip or prefer another meaning.


peace
so how does this mean anything other than some vague idea of a creation?
definitely nothing scientific. Or do you have to add meaning?
Reply

back_to_faith
07-11-2007, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
so how does this mean anything other than some vague idea of a creation?
definitely nothing scientific. Or do you have to add meaning?


Greetings

may be the verse the time was inspired,be vague due to the primitive tools of scientific researches ,but now

and according to famous scientists ,it has been proved to be both accurate and true
:

Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists.



At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah."

Professor Moore also stated that:

"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.

"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."

you could read testimonies of Non-Muslim Scientists regarding the Miracles of the Noble Quran!
including the matter under discussion (embryology )

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...cientists.html


again I invite to show me where the Quran erred while describing (embryology )
and what is some vague idea of a creation,you are talking about ?


peace
Reply

root
07-11-2007, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by back_to_faith
Greetings

may be the verse the time was inspired,be vague due to the primitive tools of scientific researches ,but now

and according to famous scientists ,it has been proved to be both accurate and true
:

Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists.



At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah."

Professor Moore also stated that:

"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.

"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."

you could read testimonies of Non-Muslim Scientists regarding the Miracles of the Noble Quran!
including the matter under discussion (embryology )

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...cientists.html


again I invite to show me where the Quran erred while describing (embryology )
and what is some vague idea of a creation,you are talking about ?


peace
I always find it funny the way you use an "infidel" to try to collaborate any form of scientific respect. But please tell us, since you know so much:

  1. How much was Dr Moore paid for his comments.#
  2. Where does it state that the quran references are "scientific"
  3. Did he convert to Islam?


Thanks
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-11-2007, 06:07 PM
lol when i saw this thread i smiled.

you guys should check up on the number of doctors/professors etc who became muslim due to the Qur'an.


Islam doesnt need science, rather Science is only catching up to Islam... although nothing can ever catch up to islam :), tis far superior...
Reply

root
07-11-2007, 06:23 PM
Think I will wait for the answers myself, have you any idea how many scientists and professors have converted to the church of the flying sphagetti monster?
Reply

Abdul Fattah
07-11-2007, 06:28 PM
Hi root, long time no see :)

Regarding your questions:
[*]How much was Dr Moore paid for his comments.#
Do you have proofs to back up your insinuations that he was paid for making these comments?
[*]Where does it state that the quran references are "scientific"
I am a bit confused by the structure of that question. could you rephrase it?
[*]Did he convert to Islam?
Is that relevant?

As for FSM, you know just as well as I do that it's a joke, and that their "conversion" is simply a matter of making a statement instead of a matter of belief. So they can hardly be compared with reverts to Islam.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-11-2007, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by root
Think I will wait for the answers myself, have you any idea how many scientists and professors have converted to the church of the flying sphagetti monster?
is it fun to do no research and make silly remarks? :)
Reply

root
07-11-2007, 07:01 PM
Steve -[*]How much was Dr Moore paid for his comments.#
Do you have proofs to back up your insinuations that he was paid for making these comments?
Do I have to do your home work as well, the $$$$$ came from the saudi Royal family. It's not the first Infidel $cientist hired to give favourable accounts of the quran and it's literal thousands of hadiths........

I am quite sure that if someone wrote thousands of random dribble, then if someone took the time to compare them phrase by phrase (and bend the words slightly) then indeed u will get scientific knowledge. It's a crock.

Wonder if you can show me a single scientific peer reviewed journal that states ANY holy book as a reference.......... actuaally don't bother, as it's a waste of time u know it and I do.

PS

Nice to see u again Steve.
Reply

Trumble
07-11-2007, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
[*]How much was Dr Moore paid for his comments.#
Do you have proofs to back up your insinuations that he was paid for making these comments?
We know he was employed by the Saudi Royal family at the time. No insinuation is necessary... they commissioned the "research paper" (see below).

[*]Where does it state that the quran references are "scientific"
I am a bit confused by the structure of that question. could you rephrase it?
I think the point (?) is that it was NOT a "research paper", it was an article, titled "A Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in The Qur'an" to be precise. No research paper on the subject has ever been published, indeed it is impossible to see how any such 'research' could be done.

[*]Did he convert to Islam?
Is that relevant?
I would have thought so. If I was convinced that something in the Qur'an meant it could ONLY be the Word of God, I would.

The Qur'an only echoes the work of the Greek physician Galen on embryology. That was pointed out by muslim scientists long before the current fad for discovering scientific 'miracles' left right and centre.
Reply

- Qatada -
07-11-2007, 07:08 PM
Trumble, you continue making the claim that the Qur'an was taken from the Greeks. Yet a question which i asked in the past still hasn't been answered - How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) get all this Greek info?

Who did he get it off? When the arabs were an illiterate people, when he (peace be upon him) was an illiterate man. When the Byzantinian Romans and the Persian Sassanids thought of the arabs as a nuisance, as an illiterate people - so they wouldn't even bother passing this info onto them.


And even if he somehow got the info from the Greeks or any superpower in the world at that time, how come none of his enemies spoke out against that? When they were the severest and harshest in trying to accuse Muhammad (peace be upon him) of falsehood, of madness and telling 'stories of old.'
Reply

Trumble
07-11-2007, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Trumble, you continue making the claim that the Qur'an was taken from the Greeks. Yet a question which i asked in the past still hasn't been answered - How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) get all this Greek info?

Who did he get it off? When the arabs were an illiterate people, when he (peace be upon him) was an illiterate man. When the Byzantinian Romans and the Persian Sassanids thought of the arabs as a nuisance, as an illiterate people - so they wouldn't even bother passing this info onto them.

Literacy has little to do with it, Galen's works were the Gray's Anatomy of his day and the knowledge of what was in them went far beyond those who read them. It is quite possible that any physician/healer who came from, or even stayed a while (or even with someone who had been in contact with such people) in the Roman Empire would have been aware of what he wrote. We have absolutely no way of knowing who passed on what to who.

The point is that the 'embryology' passages are quoted/interpreted with the intention of showing that the Qur'an contains 'modern science' that could not possibly have been known in Mohammed's time. That is simply not the case; the 'modern science' had been known to humans for centuries. There is still the case that you make, but it is far weaker than the claim that man could not have known what was in the Qur'an. Many did.

And even if he somehow got the info from the Greeks or any superpower in the world at that time, how come none of his enemies spoke out against that?
You are making the assumption that only Mohammed would have acquired such knowledge. That makes little sense - maybe those 'enemies' spoke to physicians too? For all we know it was perfectly common knowledge among such people.
Reply

جوري
07-11-2007, 08:33 PM
I think this topic is absurd and I am going to share a simple story that happened not two centuries ago, even though G-D as my witness this is a complete waste of my time...
A Hungarian physician by the name of Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis he was born in 1818 died in 1860 something or another, ran an amazing study though he didn't document it to be published, as toward he end of his life he unfortunately went mad spent the remainder of them in an insane asylum... At the time there was a two type service to pregnant women in Vienna midwives or medical doctors, most delivered at home, but those who had to take to the hospitals, due to poverty, or birth complications, suffered a mortality of 25-30 percent, compared to 2-3% mortality with midwives.. well this was outstanding he thought, so they would run autopsies on these ladies trying to figure out what went wrong.. what is it about these pregnant women, that was causing them death compared to those who sought midwifery?.. well it so happens that his friend Dr. Jakob Kolletschka (1803-1847), who was professor of forensic medicine, ran these autopsies and at some point during one of them cut himself with the instrument that he used for an autopsy on one of these ladies... and eventually ended up dead...Dr. Semmelweis, knew then then that this high mortality had nothing to do with poverty, being pregnant or being a woman and thus he instituted the use of a solution of chlorinated lime for washing hands between autopsy work and examination of patients... and that was the first when people figured that there is such a thing called infection... in the 19th century.. I can go on about other things that happened historically not just in medicine itself, which would show the simplicity of even the most complex minds of the time-- what does this have to do with the topic? simple, I think the Quran with all its contents is outrageously post modern and pretty miraculous to have come from that spot of the world at that particular time...

like any erudite detective one would simply wonder a motive for prophet Mohammed PBUH to have come up with this book as well as the hadith? I mean he died with his armor pawned to a Jewish man and never slept on a full stomach three days in a row.. was it glory he sought? riches? control? I think a person should really take a close examining look, sequentially, historically, psychologically and theologically before blurting out their own thesis of what they presume to dismiss this text for, or trying to find error within as if they were the connoisseurs of Arabic lexicon... the book is written like a poem.. but it isn't a poem.. is has scientific facts but it isn't a science book, it describes the psychology of man, it is not a book of psychiatry, it discusses the law and jurisprudence, but it isn't a book of law... it discusses the stories that happened of old unbeknownst to most, some up to recent times, and tells of events yet to come, but it isn't an oracle.. it is a book of guidance, for those who reflect and those who wish to seek a path to their lord.
Anything beyond this point is subjective and all I can say to that, is fine, you are free to believe what you wish or disbelieve what you wish, but you have no right to illogical impositions to try to shelf for us Muslims, something that we consider a living miracle, one that is transcendent!
peace!
Reply

back_to_faith
07-11-2007, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by root
I always find it funny the way you use an "infidel" to try to collaborate any form of scientific respect. But please tell us, since you know so much:

  1. How much was Dr Moore paid for his comments.#
  2. Where does it state that the quran references are "scientific"
  3. Did he convert to Islam?


Thanks

Instead of showing us where the Quran erred or even Dr Moore ,regarding

embryology.....you highlighted offtopic, irrelevant questions.
Reply

back_to_faith
07-11-2007, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
It is quite possible that any physician/healer who came from, or even stayed a while (or even with someone who had been in contact with such people) in the Roman Empire would have been aware of what he wrote.


maybe those 'enemies' spoke to physicians too? For all we know it was perfectly common knowledge among such people(Arabs).

Your source?
argument from silence
Your source?




The Qur’an does not take the things which were wrong from Hypocrites. If he would have copied, he would have copied everything - it is logical. Unless he is a scientist… ‘Okay this is correct… Oh! This is wrong I won’t copy that - This is correct, I will copy that.’ All the stages of Hypocrites, and Gallon is not the same as the Qur’an - Hypocrites and Gallon does not speak about ‘leech like substance.’ They do not speak about ‘mudgah’ at all - Where do they speak? Hypocrites and Gallon, at that time, they said that… ‘Even the women have got semen’ - who says that? (DR Zakir Naik)
Reply

back_to_faith
07-11-2007, 09:20 PM
anyway thanx for Trumble who has put his endorsment on the validity of the Quranic embryology with science...
and pity if he still believe in the greek copied material ,un-supported claim

my friend If the copy from Greeks claim might save you this time,It can't help you with the other several Quranic scientific passages.
Reply

Trumble
07-11-2007, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by back_to_faith

my friend If the copy from Greeks claim might save you this time,It can't help you with the other several Quranic scientific passages.
They all go much the same way, and most have been discussed at length here before. At least the embryology is in context which is more than can be said for most of the rest, which seem to involve re-'interpreting' passages which make perfect contextual and religious sense into those that make no contextual sense at all in order to present them as gratuitous scientific 'facts'.
Reply

ranma1/2
07-11-2007, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol when i saw this thread i smiled.

you guys should check up on the number of doctors/professors etc who became muslim due to the Qur'an.


Islam doesnt need science, rather Science is only catching up to Islam... although nothing can ever catch up to islam :), tis far superior...
link?
Now i do know that doctors do tend to be religous, but biologists also tend to not be religious. We have actual explainations for this.
Also do you know how many doctors have become christian? jews? etc...
Reply

جوري
07-12-2007, 12:57 AM
people can't go to med school, at least here in the U.S. w/out having a B.S in science.. usually biology or chemistry or physics... thus your conclusion does not follow from the premises you've made (biologists being non-religious (Atheists), whereas doctors are), as most doctors hold a bachelors or masters in biology or the like many having a PhD--before entering medical school!
Atheists make up only 7% of the population and all the Atheists I have known were English or philosophy professors, but even that can't construed as an appropriate measure!
Reply

back_to_faith
07-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
seem to involve re-'interpreting' passages which make perfect contextual and religious sense into those that make no contextual sense at all in order to present them as gratuitous scientific 'facts'.

your posts as usuall,much assertions,arguments from silence with zero serious proofs

I can't help but to yawn.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-12-2007, 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
link?
www.google.com :p

Now i do know that doctors do tend to be religous, but biologists also tend to not be religious. We have actual explainations for this.
plz let me know :)

Also do you know how many doctors have become christian? jews? etc...
due to science? :)
Reply

back_to_faith
07-12-2007, 10:02 AM
lots of non-muslims and with their never-ending search for something Quranic for criticism..

they use two ways :

1- first they claim ,that a Quranic passage while has new information regarding science,but false one.

if they fail to prove it
2-They try to prove that the information does exist the time of the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him.

that is a tactic

and that is what non-muslims tried here

may be Trumble felt that by no mean the first method could help,so he used the second......

he ignored the fact that ..impossible to prove that.

as a matter of fact the proof for the opposite is overwhelming....

more important is the fact that the Greek work and the Quran differs as mentioned before.


Any other hero ,who prefer to use the first way of criticism?


Where the Quran erred while describing embryology,in the following verses?


We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
Reply

Malaikah
07-12-2007, 11:15 AM
:sl:

Aren't we meant to be discussing something about a whale here...
Reply

back_to_faith
07-12-2007, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Aren't we meant to be discussing something about a whale here...
and the whale sank with Caesar

:D
Reply

- Qatada -
07-12-2007, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble

The point is that the 'embryology' passages are quoted/interpreted with the intention of showing that the Qur'an contains 'modern science' that could not possibly have been known in Mohammed's time. That is simply not the case; the 'modern science' had been known to humans for centuries. There is still the case that you make, but it is far weaker than the claim that man could not have known what was in the Qur'an. Many did.


You are making the assumption that only Mohammed would have acquired such knowledge. That makes little sense - maybe those 'enemies' spoke to physicians too? For all we know it was perfectly common knowledge among such people.


I'd love it if you could get some proof or source for that please? Because making assumptions isn't sufficient to prove anything. Atleast from what i've seen here in the Comparative section. :)


If you can't find any, then i don't think that argument stands. And yes, there should be info since our history is packed with it on life of the Pre-Islamic period. And then what comes after etc.



Just to clarify some stuff; Muhammad (peace be upon him) stayed in the desert life for a his youth, he was a shepherd (like all the prophets), when he grew older he was a business man for a little while, then he got married, and after that he was a father, then he got the revelation at the age of 40. Most surahs which talk about this (i.e. embryology etc.) were in the Makkan Period. I.e. when he (peace be upon him) had rarely left his home city of Makkah.





Peace.
Reply

back_to_faith
07-12-2007, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
I'd love it if you could get some proof or source for that please? Because making assumptions isn't sufficient to prove anything. Atleast from what i've seen here in the Comparative section. :)


If you can't find any, then i don't think that argument stands. And yes, there should be info since our history is packed with it on life of the Pre-Islamic period. And then what comes after etc.



Just to clarify some stuff; Muhammad (peace be upon him) stayed in the desert life for a his youth, he was a shepherd (like all the prophets), when he grew older he was a business man for a little while, then he got married, and after that he was a father, then he got the revelation at the age of 40. Most surahs which talk about this (i.e. embryology etc.) were in the Makkan Period. I.e. when he (peace be upon him) had rarely left his home city of Makkah.





Peace.



Exactly brother Qatada
Reply

guyabano
07-12-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by back_to_faith
lots of non-muslims and with their never-ending search for something Quranic for criticism..

they use two ways :

1- first they claim ,that a Quranic passage while has new information regarding science,but false one.

if they fail to prove it
2-They try to prove that the information does exist the time of the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him.

that is a tactic

and that is what non-muslims tried here

may be Trumble felt that by no mean the first method could help,so he used the second......

he ignored the fact that ..impossible to prove that.

as a matter of fact the proof for the opposite is overwhelming....

more important is the fact that the Greek work and the Quran differs as mentioned before.


Any other hero ,who prefer to use the first way of criticism?


Where the Quran erred while describing embryology,in the following verses?


We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
oh man, and ya know the tactic of muslims?


'Allah knows best', that is all what comes to the mind of a muslim, when he see, there is no more issue to proove something or even he has no proof at all than just to refer to the fairy tales book called 'Quaran' or 'bible' or whatever.
Reply

- Qatada -
07-12-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
oh man, and ya know the tactic of muslims?


'Allah knows best', that is all what comes to the mind of a muslim, when he see, there is no more issue to proove something or even he has no proof at all than just to refer to the fairy tales book called 'Quaran' or 'bible' or whatever.

And you've ever read the Qur'an? :? If not - then please don't make false, or atleast pre-concieved claims.




Regards.
Reply

guyabano
07-12-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
don't make false, or at least pre-concieved claims.

Regards.
Like what ?

I'm sorry, but noone could or can proove that a god exists. Anyway, this topic doesn't belong here and will certainly never come to an end.
Reply

Trumble
07-12-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
I'd love it if you could get some proof or source for that please? Because making assumptions isn't sufficient to prove anything. Atleast from what i've seen here in the Comparative section. :)


If you can't find any, then i don't think that argument stands. And yes, there should be info since our history is packed with it on life of the Pre-Islamic period. And then what comes after etc.

I was not attempting to 'prove' anything, it is obvious that such a 'proof' is not possible. I can't 'prove' Mohammed or co-authors came into contact with such knowledge any more than you can prove that that he didn't; the point is that the possibility cannot be discounted. Neither is there likely to be a 'source' for possible, unrecorded events we can never establish with any certainty, however much 'info' we may have on what life was like at the time. That applies to last week as much as 1400 years ago.

Just to clarify some stuff; Muhammad (peace be upon him) stayed in the desert life for a his youth, he was a shepherd (like all the prophets), when he grew older he was a business man for a little while, then he got married, and after that he was a father, then he got the revelation at the age of 40. Most surahs which talk about this (i.e. embryology etc.) were in the Makkan Period. I.e. when he (peace be upon him) had rarely left his home city of Makkah.
Nobody is saying Mohammed went to Med School. Are you saying they had no healers, physicians (or what passed for one at the time) or travellers who may have come across them in Makkah? Your position amounts to no more than "it isn't very likely Mohammed ever came across knowledge that had actually been around a while". It may not be, but the alternative is far more unlikely! Although, of course, I know you won't see it that way.. which is why such debates are rather futile really! :smile:
Reply

- Qatada -
07-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Agreed, there were people who travelled to Makkah. Maybe bedouins or other illiterate arabs, i wouldn't say that a Greek scientist would come there, and if there ever was - then evidence is required. Since that would, if ever - be a rare occurence.


Anyway, to use this as an example;

Prophet Mohummed says "If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote. "

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ly-hadith.html


You've seen this discussion before, and i don't really want a specific response to the actual fly hadith itself.

Rather, what i'm focusing on is the fact that it would rarely be known to anyone at that time that there are anti biotics within the fly. Even Ibn al Qayyim, a great scholar and someone who came 700years after the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) He studied medicine and writ a book on the Prophetic medicines. Yet he was unable to find an explanation to this hadith, but he stated that we believe in Allaah and His Messenger, even if there is something we lack in understanding.


So if someone who had loads of resources (the Muslims were a superpower in the world at his time) and he was unable to find any specific explanation to this hadith. Then can we really say that what the Messenger of Allaah said is from a contemporary? Infact, this hadith was used as a joke by the anti islamists throughout history, yet we find the answer to it only today.


We as Muslims believe it is all from Allaah, but what i dislike is when people claim that it is from contemporaries when there is no validity in that argument. When it has no proof etc.





Peace.

Reply

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