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shible
10-14-2007, 03:46 PM
:sl:

In principle, the Qur'an condemns the killing of humans (except in the case of

defense or as capital punishment), but it does not explicitly mention abortion.

This leads Islamic theologians to take up different viewpoints: while the

majority of early Islamic theologians permitted abortion up to day 40 of

pregnancy or even up to day 120, many countries today interpret these

precepts protecting unborn children more conservatively. Although there is

no actual approval of abortion in the world of Islam, there is no strict,

unanimous ban on it, either. Islam has not given any precise directions with

regard to the issue of abortion. Hence it is not a matter, which has been

clearly stated in the Shari'ah (Islamic Law) but rather an issue pertaining to

the application of our knowledge of the Shari'ah. Such application may vary

in conclusion with a difference in the basic premises of one's arguments.


The Qur'an clearly disapproves of killing other humans: “Take not life which Allah has made sacred” (6:151; see also 4:29 “If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (for ever)” (4:93). Allah (SWT) went even further, making unlawful killing of a single individual human being equal to mass murder of the whole of mankind: "Because of that, We ordained for the children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief on earth, it would be as if he killed all mankind. And who saved a life, it would be as if he saved all mankind." (Al-Maidah, 5:32)


As to whether abortion is a form of killing a human, the Qur'an does not make any explicit statements. Only Surah 17:31 warns believers in general: “Kill not your children for fear of want. We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.”



There are those in Islam who oppose all abortions. A favored text to support this is: "Do not kill your children for fear of poverty for it is We who shall provide sustenance for you as well as for them." (Surah, Al-An' am, 6:151). This Qur'anic reference is to killing already born children--usually girls. The text was condemning this custom. The Arabic word for killing used in this text "means not only slaying with a weapon, blow or poison, but also humiliating or degrading or depriving children of proper upbringing and education." The text doesn't explicitly address the abortion and therefore doesn't close the argument on it.


The Qur'an says:



We created man from an essence of clay: then placed him, a living germ,

In a secure enclosure. The germ We made a leech; and the leech a lump of

Flesh; and this We fashioned into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh;

Then We develop it into another creation. (Surah Al-Mu'minoon, 23: 12-14)



This verse reveals how the fetus is formed and transforms into a complete human being.

The elaborate process of the development of the first human being is given in the Qur'an as follows:



He who has made everything which He has created most good. He

began the creation of man with(nothing more than) clay, and made

his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised.

Then He fashioned him in due proportion and breathed into him some-

thing of His Ruh(Life-Energy). And (with this) He gave you (the faculties

of ) hearing and sight and understanding. (Surah Al-Sajadah, 32:7-9).


During the development of fetus, the body received the Divine Ruh (Life-energy) and subsequently the human faculties of hearing, sight and understanding were developed.

There is no agreement among legal scholars – including those of the founders of the four schools of religious law of the early Islamic period – as to the exact point in time this happens, however.



Abortion


Islam's approach to the issue of birth control and abortion is very balanced. It allows women to prevent pregnancy but forbids them to terminate it. In case of rape the woman should use the morning after pill or RU486 immediately after the sexual assault in order to prevent the possible implantation of a fertilized ovum. Modern technology (like ultra sound scan) has made it possible to know whether or not a child has a defect long before he is born. Some people justify the abortion of a defective fetus.


The Shari'ah allows abortion only when doctors declare with reasonable certainty that the continuation of pregnancy will endanger the woman's life. This permission is based on the principle of the lesser of the two evils known in Islamic legal terminology as the principle of al-ahamm wa 'l-muhimm (the more important and the less important). The Prophet said, "When two forbidden things come [upon a person] together, then the lesser will be sacrificed for the greater." In the present case, one is faced with two forbidden things: either abort the unborn child or let a living woman die. Obviously, the latter is greater than the former; therefore, abortion is allowed to save the live person. 1



Permissibility of Abortion 2

"And do not kill your children for fear of poverty: We give them sustenance and
yourselves (too): surely to kill them is a great wrong." (17:31)

The abortion of a fetus from the mother's womb is a different issue, since the sperm and egg have already met and fertilized what could become a human being. The scholars all agree that abortion is forbidden after the first four months of pregnancy, since by that time the soul has entered the embryo but it would allow the use of RU486 (the "morning-after pill"), as long as it could be reasonably assumed that the fertilized egg has not become implanted on the wall of the uterus. Most scholars say that abortion is legal under Islamic Shari'ah (law), when done for valid reasons and when completed before the soul enters the embryo. To abort a baby for such vain reasons as wanting to keep a woman’s youthful figure, are not valid.


"...And do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty -- We provide for you and for them ---
and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are
concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of
justice: this He has enjoined you with that you may understand." (6:151)



Qur’anic verses misinterpreted 3

There are, however, some Qur'anic verses which prohibit infanticide:



"And do not kill your children for fear of poverty: We give them sustenance and
yourselves (too): surely to kill them is a great wrong." (17:31)



These verses in fact were revealed to forbid the pre-Islamic Arab practice of killing or burying alive a newborn child (particularly a girl) on account of the parents' poverty or to refrain from having a female child. Perhaps in those days, people did not know safe methods of contraception and early abortion.



Embryonic development was central to the Muslim arguments on abortion. According to Muslim scholars, it is lawful to have an abortion during the first 120 days, but after the stage of ensoulment (after the soul enters into the fetus), abortion is prohibited completely except where it is imperative to save the mother's life. After ensoulment, however, abortion is prohibited absolutely and is akin to murder.



The Hanafi scholars, who comprised the majority of orthodox Muslims in later centuries, permitted abortion until the end of the four months. According to them, a pregnant woman could have an abortion without her husband's permission, but she should have reasonable grounds for this act. One reason, which was mentioned frequently, was the presence of a nursing infant. A new pregnancy put an upper limit on lactation, and the jurists believed that if the mother could not be replaced by a wet-nurse, the infant would die.



Views of Four Madhhabs (Schools of Thought) 4


There is broad acceptance in the major Islamic schools of law on the permissibility of abortion in the first four months of pregnancy. Most of the schools that permit abortion insist that there must be a serious reason for it such as a threat to the mother's life or the probability of giving birth to a deformed or defective child. However, as the Egyptian booklet."(The Arab Republic of Egypt published a booklet called "Islam's Attitude Towards Family Planning.") says: "Jurists of the Shiite Zaidiva believe in the total permissibility of abortion before life is breathed into the fetus, no matter whether there is a justifiable excuse or not." That would be a pure form of what some call "abortion on demand."

The majority of orthodox Muslims (following the Hanafi school) in later centuries, allowed abortion until the end of the four months. According to them, a pregnant woman could have an abortion without her husband's permission, but she should have reasonable grounds for this act. Most of the Maliki jurists (legal scholars) described abortion as completely forbidden. In their view, when the semen settles in the womb, it is expected to develop into a living baby and it should not be disturbed by anyone. According to Ibn Jawziyyah, when the womb has retained the semen, it is not permitted for the husband and wife, or one of them or the master of the slave-wife, to induce an abortion. After ensoulment, however, abortion is prohibited absolutely and is akin to murder.

The Hanafi school (prevalent in Turkey, the Middle East and Central Asia) allows abortions to take place principally until day 120; some jurists restrict this provision to “good cause”, e.g. if the mother is still nursing an infant and fears that her milk may run out during the new pregnancy. In aborting up to day 120, the woman commits a mere moral transgression, not a crime. The Shafi school (dominant in Southeast Asia, southern Arabia, parts of East Africa) allows abortions to be performed up to day 120. For the Maliki school (prevalent in North and Black Africa) an abortion is permissible with the consent of both parents up to day 40; it is no longer allowed after that. For the Hanbali school (predominant in Saudi Arabia and United Arabic Emirates) abortions are principally prohibited from day 40 onward.



Some Shiite groups, such as the Ismailis, do not permit abortions to take place at all. In case of infringements of this law, abortions before day 40 are penalized with a monetary fee. Other Shiite groups such as the Zaydites allow abortions to be performed up to day 120, equating an abortion up to this point with contraception. Whoever injures a pregnant woman to the extent that she loses her child must pay compensation according to Islamic law. Strictly speaking, this money belongs to the dead child, who is to inherit it. The family of the woman who undergoes an abortion must also pay compensation if the child’s father had not consented to the abortion performed on her.


Several differences become clear, however, between modern legal practices and the statements made by early Islamic jurists. In principle, the protection of unborn lives is today in the forefront, i.e. modern-day legal scholars judge more conservatively than the authors of the early Islamic legal texts. Exceptions are made in some countries if the life of the mother is endangered, based on Surah Baqarah, 2:233: "A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child.” As a result, abortion is possible for health reasons up to day 90 in many countries. In Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey abortion is fully prohibited (an exception is made if the mother’s life is endangered); this does not imply, however, that abortions are not at all performed. Tunisia’s liberal abortion practice allows for abortions to be performed up to the end of the third month. There, abortions are principally permissible for single as well as married women in the first three months, provided that a registered doctor performs them. The approval of the husband or of a male guardian is not required in Tunisia.


Some contemporary voices speak out fully against abortion, arguing that Islam is granted strength through multitudes of children. Traditionally, a large family with several sons has always been the ideal situation in the Islamic world. Abortion in this context is compared with murder, with references to the endangered health of the woman. Other voices view abortion as a type of birth control and refer to the fact that the wives of prophets also practiced birth control with the approval of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Muslim women’s rights advocates demand the right to free abortion in connection with the demand for self-determination. The hesitation of many doctors, for fear of legal prosecution, to perform abortions in clinics leads to illegal operations and numerous cases of death. A number of legal assessments (fatwas) have been published on the subject of abortion; this support one viewpoint or the other but do not legally have the character of law and are therefore not binding.


Abortion in Islam 5

Some Muslims argue that abortion is permissible if the fetus is younger than four months (120 days). They quote a statement from the Prophet (s) that refers to a human being starting as a fertilized ovum in the uterus of the mother for forty days, then it grows into a clot for the same period, then into a morsel of flesh for the same period, then an angel is sent to that fetus to blow the Ruh into it and to write down its age, deeds, sustenance, and whether it is destined to be happy or sad.

Assuming the Hadith to be authentic, scholars explain that the error comes from understanding that before the Ruh is blown into the fetus at 120 days, the fetus is not a living entity, and therefore aborting it does not amount to killing it. It therefore becomes clear that aborting a fetus before 120 days is still killing a living entity, let alone abortion after that presumed period.

Some Muslims argue that the only case when aborting a fetus, before or after 120 days, is allowed in Islam, is when a medical situation threatens the life of the mother, leaving only two options, to let either the other or the fetus survive, but not both. Scholars argue that such a case can only be determined by a specialist, trusted and committed Muslim doctor. They argue that the mother can have other children, whereas the child cannot make up for losing the mother.


Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi 6

Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states in his well-known book, “The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam”:

“While Islam permits preventing pregnancy for valid reasons, it does not allow doing violence to it once it occurs.

Muslim jurists have agreed unanimously that after the fetus is completely formed and has been given a soul, abortion is Haram. It is also a crime, the commission of which is prohibited to the Muslim because it constitutes an offense against a complete, living human being. Jurists insist that the payment of blood money (diya) becomes incumbent if the baby is aborted alive and then died, while a fine of lesser amount is to be paid if it is aborted dead.

However, there is one exceptional situation. If, say the jurists, after the baby is completely formed, it is reliably shown that the continuation of the pregnancy would necessarily result in the death of the mother, then, in accordance with the general principle of the Shari'ah, that of choosing the lesser of two evils, abortion must be performed. The reason for this is that the mother is the origin of the fetus; moreover, her life is well established with duties and responsibilities, and she is also a pillar of the family. It would not be possible to sacrifice her life for the life of a fetus which has not yet acquired a personality and which has no responsibilities or obligations to fulfill.

Allah Almighty knows best.



REFERENCES:

1. Marriage and Morals in Islam. Chapter 4: contraceptives and Abortion. Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi, Pub. By Islamic Education and Information Center, Scarborough, Ont. Canada.

2. www.understanding-Islam.com 1st March 1999

3.Family Planning and Islam: A Review by Khalid Farooq Akbar Hamdard Islamicus Vol. 17, No. 3, 1974.

4. Abortion in Islam. Christine Schirrmacher (Institute for Islamic Studies) Online at www.islaminstitut.de/english/publications/abortion.htm

5. Abortion in Islam. Elsayed Kandil, SALAM Magazine, Sydney, New South Wales http://www.famsy.com/salam/.

6. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. "Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam" Islamic Book Service, 1982



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Miss Palestine
10-15-2007, 03:03 AM
that was my debate topic wen i was in Islamic skool...nd last year in public skool...lolz...
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Malaikah
10-15-2007, 11:21 AM
:sl:

Excellent post, jazakaallah khayr.

Though when you think about, 4 months sounds like a long time! I mean, the baby would be so well formed by that stage.
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shible
10-15-2007, 11:48 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Miss Palestine
that was my debate topic wen i was in Islamic skool...nd last year in public skool...lolz...
So what was the result of the debate


:w:
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shible
10-15-2007, 11:50 AM
:sl:


Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Excellent post, jazakaallah khayr.

Though when you think about, 4 months sounds like a long time! I mean, the baby would be so well formed by that stage.
Thanks Sis,

To be frank i received a Mail on this which shook me apart

only after that i felt how important is this information sharing.



:w:
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Amadeus85
10-15-2007, 07:57 PM
Roman catholic Church says that human life should be protected since born to natural death, so abortion is wrong always, no matter what week.
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snakelegs
10-15-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Roman catholic Church says that human life should be protected since born to natural death, so abortion is wrong always, no matter what week.
is it correct that the catholic church places the child's life above the mother's? (unlike judaism or islam). that - in a case where the mother's life is at stake, abortion is still not permitted - it is preferred to let the mother die and save the baby?
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Kittygyal
10-15-2007, 08:08 PM
Salmualikum.

May Allaah guide us all and forgive our acts AMin ya Rabbil alameen

Ma'assalama
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Pk_#2
10-15-2007, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
is it correct that the catholic church places the child's life above the mother's? (unlike judaism or islam). that - in a case where the mother's life is at stake, abortion is still not permitted - it is preferred to let the mother die and save the baby?
so who's gonna give birth to baby then? CS? :embarrass :-\
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Amadeus85
10-15-2007, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
is it correct that the catholic church places the child's life above the mother's? (unlike judaism or islam). that - in a case where the mother's life is at stake, abortion is still not permitted - it is preferred to let the mother die and save the baby?
Killing a baby is murder for Catholic Church. The examples that you showed dont happen so often. See that in majority of cases about abortion simply woman wants to get rid of the child, because her partner didnt wear safety or because she is still in college or because she is not ready to have one. There are also other cases when unborn children are killed, when the baby may be very sick, or when it was made in rape. But Catholic Church keeps telling that even sick baby should have right to live, that even a baby made in rape should have right to live.CC says that its not our case to take person's life.It is big sin.
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ISLAMASWEENEY
10-15-2007, 08:24 PM
Abortion is illegal in a lot of countries isnt it?
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snakelegs
10-15-2007, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Killing a baby is murder for Catholic Church. The examples that you showed dont happen so often. See that in majority of cases about abortion simply woman wants to get rid of the child, because her partner didnt wear safety or because she is still in college or because she is not ready to have one. There are also other cases when unborn children are killed, when the baby may be very sick, or when it was made in rape. But Catholic Church keeps telling that even sick baby should have right to live, that even a baby made in rape should have right to live.CC says that its not our case to take person's life.It is big sin.
yes, you're right - the majority of abortions have to do with convenience
but i am interested in this case:
a woman is pregnant and the doctor says that giving birth or carrying the baby to full term, will kill the mother. what is the church's ruling?
islam and judaism place the mother's life first.
The Shari'ah allows abortion only when doctors declare with reasonable certainty that the continuation of pregnancy will endanger the woman's life. This permission is based on the principle of the lesser of the two evils known in Islamic legal terminology as the principle of al-ahamm wa 'l-muhimm (the more important and the less important). The Prophet said, "When two forbidden things come [upon a person] together, then the lesser will be sacrificed for the greater." In the present case, one is faced with two forbidden things: either abort the unborn child or let a living woman die. Obviously, the latter is greater than the former; therefore, abortion is allowed to save the live person.
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ISLAMASWEENEY
10-15-2007, 08:28 PM
Abortion is illegal in a lot of Catholic countries.
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Amadeus85
10-15-2007, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
yes, you're right - the majority of abortions have to do with convenience
but i am interested in this case:
a woman is pregnant and the doctor says that giving birth or carrying the baby to full term, will kill the mother. what is the church's ruling?
islam and judaism place the mother's life first.
Then I guess that the decision belongs to the mother.
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ISLAMASWEENEY
10-15-2007, 08:30 PM
not when the baby is a human being.
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 08:30 PM
The abortion issue would mostly disappear if every one would agree on one thing.
When is it a human?
Is it the moment of conception?
Is it 4 weeks, 4 months, or 4 years?
If you become human at 21 years,
Then it is ok to kill an 18 year old.
So, until you agree on when it becomes human,
You will never be able to agree about abortion.
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Amadeus85
10-15-2007, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by ISLAMASWEENEY
Abortion is illegal in a lot of Catholic countries.
In Europe tha harshest laws against abortion are in Malta, Ireland and Poland.Similar are in South and Central American countries and also in african christian countries.
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Woodrow
10-15-2007, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by ISLAMASWEENEY
Abortion is illegal in a lot of countries isnt it?
It used to be, but at the present time I think every country permits it it although the conditions it is legal vary.

This site shows the conditions it is legal for most countries.

http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.htm
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ISLAMASWEENEY
10-15-2007, 08:33 PM
I think abortion has just recently being made legal in Portugal.
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snakelegs
10-15-2007, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Then I guess that the decision belongs to the mother.
i am asking for the ruling of the catholic church in this matter. if you don't know, that's ok. i'm pretty sure that the church takes a different position on this issue than either islam or judaism. i was just looking for confirmation.
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 09:11 PM
First, let me greet ya - Salaam!:happy:

The ruling of the Catholic church is clear; Life starts with the conception and we have no right to terminate it, no matter the circumstances.
Even if the mother's life is in danger, even if the fetus is deformed...even if both, mother and baby, are in danger, even if the baby has no chances and abortion could at least save the mother - humans have no right to kill - only God can do that. I'm quite pro-life in general, but I find it incredibly pointless to let both of them die just because we aren't supposed to interfere with God's plan...:omg:
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i am asking for the ruling of the catholic church in this matter. if you don't know, that's ok. i'm pretty sure that the church takes a different position on this issue than either islam or judaism. i was just looking for confirmation.
In the Catholic Church, you can not take an inocent life for any reason.
You can not take the mothers live to save the baby or visa versa.

Whatsthepoint, did it better and he is correct.
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Whatsthepoint, did it better and they are correct.
Who?:rolleyes:
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Who?:rolleyes:
You! :D :thumbs_up
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 09:39 PM
Umm...lol.:smile:
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 09:44 PM
I support the women's right to chose although I would personally never abort a baby...well, how could I, I'm a bro, but I'm sure you get the point.
In some cases, when the mother's health is at stake, when the baby is damaged and in certain social situatuions, I understand and support women who have to make this tough decision.

I consider abortion to be murder, however an acceptable murder, lesser evil if you will.
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I support the women's right to chose although I would personally never abort a baby...well, how could I, I'm a bro, but I'm sure you get the point.
In some cases, when the mother's health is at stake, when the baby is damaged and in certain social situatuions, I understand and support women who have to make this tough decision.

I consider abortion to be murder, however an acceptable murder, lesser evil if you will.
I'm Pro-Choice. Make your choice before intercourse.
I believe like begins at conception. So for me Abortion = Murder.

But then I have never felt the need to force my beliefs on anyone.
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Amadeus85
10-15-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I support the women's right to chose although I would personally never abort a baby...well, how could I, I'm a bro, but I'm sure you get the point.
In some cases, when the mother's health is at stake, when the baby is damaged and in certain social situatuions, I understand and support women who have to make this tough decision.

I consider abortion to be murder, however an acceptable murder, lesser evil if you will.
Women sometimes say that it is their womb, their tummy, their case.In world we have many women' defenders.They defend their right to "get rid" the baby.So i think that its good that there are also some people who want to defend the right of the baby to live.Because the baby cant defend by itself.
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Malaikah
10-15-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The abortion issue would mostly disappear if every one would agree on one thing.
When is it a human?
Is it the moment of conception?
Is it 4 weeks, 4 months, or 4 years?
If you become human at 21 years,
Then it is ok to kill an 18 year old.
So, until you agree on when it becomes human,
You will never be able to agree about abortion.
That is a good question- in Islam abort is allowed only before the soul has been blown in (unless there is a serious risk that the mother may die) but even then it is not allowed to be taken lightly and done for what ever reason!

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I support the women's right to chose although I would personally never abort a baby...well, how could I, I'm a bro, but I'm sure you get the point.
Do you mean just because she feels like, or in the case where her life is threatened.

I have to disagree with saving the baby and letting the mother die... especially if she already has children. It just doesn't make sense. How could you save an unborn child and kill a mother, a person whos life has already been so well established and whos death will be much more tragic than that of an unborn child?
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Malaikah
10-15-2007, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I'm Pro-Choice. Make your choice before intercourse.
I believe like begins at conception. So for me Abortion = Murder.
:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Originally Posted by Aaron85
Women sometimes say that it is their womb, their tummy, their case.In world we have many women' defenders.They defend their right to "get rid" the baby.So i think that its good that there are also some people who want to defend the right of the baby to live.Because the baby cant defend by itself.
Yes, exactly! If the women won't defend their own children, the rest of the world will.

It is absolutely disgusting that people can take abortion so lightly!
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I'm Pro-Choice. Make your choice before intercourse.
I believe like begins at conception. So for me Abortion = Murder.

But then I have never felt the need to force my beliefs on anyone.
I agree.
However...When the Germans decided Jews were no longer humans and started killing them, was it inapropriate and wrong for the others to oppose them and "impose their beliefs" on them?:?
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I agree.
However...When the Germans decided Jews were no longer humans and started killing them, was it inapropriate and wrong for the others to oppose them and "impose their beliefs" on them?:?
There are multiple reasons I said:
I have never felt the need to force my beliefs on anyone.
IMHO, no one has the right to harm another based on there beliefs.
Depending how far you want to go "Off Topic" we could start corrolations to WWII. :?
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 10:04 PM
Do you mean just because she feels like, or in the case where her life is threatened.
When her life is threatened in any way, either medically or socially...if a girl knows her family would kill her for being pregnant, I definitely support abortion.

I have to disagree with saving the baby and letting the mother die... especially if she already has children. It just doesn't make sense. How could you save an unborn child and kill a mother, a person whos life has already been so well established and whos death will be much more tragic than that of an unborn child?
I agree with you.
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Whatsthepoint
10-15-2007, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
IMHO, no one has the right to harm another based on there beliefs.
My thoughts exactly.:salambox:
Depending how far you want to go "Off Topic" we could start corrolations to WWII. :?
It was just a comparison...
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snakelegs
10-15-2007, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
First, let me greet ya - Salaam!:happy:

The ruling of the Catholic church is clear; Life starts with the conception and we have no right to terminate it, no matter the circumstances.
Even if the mother's life is in danger, even if the fetus is deformed...even if both, mother and baby, are in danger, even if the baby has no chances and abortion could at least save the mother - humans have no right to kill - only God can do that. I'm quite pro-life in general, but I find it incredibly pointless to let both of them die just because we aren't supposed to interfere with God's plan...:omg:
this all sounds ok in the abstract. but when it comes to letting the mother die when an abortion could save her life, it is killing by omission.
i think the position of islam and judaism makes more sense on this.
btw, welcome to the forum!
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
this all sounds ok in the abstract. but when it comes to letting the mother die when an abortion could save her life, it is killing by omission.
i think the position of islam and judaism makes more sense on this.
btw, welcome to the forum!
Life if full of moral dilemmas.
Five people in a four person life boat, do you throw someone over board?
And 9,986 more, at least.
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m123
10-15-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Roman catholic Church says that human life should be protected since born to natural death, so abortion is wrong always, no matter what week.
the catholic church has become more flexible nowerdays, thats why theres segregation within them.
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wilberhum
10-15-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by m123
the catholic church has become more flexible nowerdays,.
The Catholic Church is about as flexible as a brick wall. :hmm:
thats why theres segregation within them.
Segregation? Would you please explain?
An example would be real nice.
Reply

جوري
10-16-2007, 03:30 AM
according to Islam the soul is breathed into the body before @ around months.. after that, you may take it out and perform proper prayers in case of in utero fetal demise...
in Medicine it is also considered a human being at 4 month and any intentional harm done to the baby then is considered child endangerment punishable by law...

there are intricacies in medicine that are too numerous to discuss here.. but a Doctor has a right to get a court order against a mother and the immediate right to hold her for 72 hours until a judge sees and decides her case..

Abortion before 4 months is legal but laws vary state to state.... some states are very idiotic there is nothing we can do about that.. some states like Oregon have legalized euthanasia but that is a topic for another day.. a Doctor has a right to refuse but not abandon a patient...

In case of harm to the mother.. well the whole medical community will agree it is sometimes a necessary procedure and as per Quran and Allah knows best... ( see only highlighted portion)

ye know not.

وَالْوَالِدَاتُ يُرْضِعْنَ أَوْلاَدَهُنَّ حَوْلَيْنِ كَامِلَيْنِ لِمَنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُتِمَّ الرَّضَاعَةَ وَعلَى الْمَوْلُودِ لَهُ رِزْقُهُنَّ وَكِسْوَتُهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ لاَ تُكَلَّفُ نَفْسٌ إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا لاَ تُضَآرَّ وَالِدَةٌ بِوَلَدِهَا وَلاَ مَوْلُودٌ لَّهُ بِوَلَدِهِ وَعَلَى الْوَارِثِ مِثْلُ ذَلِكَ فَإِنْ أَرَادَا فِصَالاً عَن تَرَاضٍ مِّنْهُمَا وَتَشَاوُرٍ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِمَا وَإِنْ أَرَدتُّمْ أَن تَسْتَرْضِعُواْ أَوْلاَدَكُمْ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذَا سَلَّمْتُم مَّا آتَيْتُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ {233}
[Pickthal 2:233] Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole years; (that is) for those who wish to complete the suckling. The duty of feeding and clothing nursing mothers in a seemly manner is upon the father of the child. No-one should be charged beyond his capacity. A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child, nor should he to whom the child is born (be made to suffer) because of his child. And on the (father's) heir is incumbent the like of that (which was incumbent on the father). If they desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, it is no sin for them; and if ye wish to give your children out to nurse, it is no sin for you, provide that ye pay what is due from you in kindness. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is Seer of what ye do.
However a medical emergency and there are many... from Abruptio placentae, to Molar Pregnancy to Eclampsia convulsions kidney and heart failure etc etc etc can and do happen, BUT IT ISN'T the same as women who use abortion for birth control... You are not up to the responsibility of children, then you are not up to the responsibility of engaging sexually with someone! It is really that simple...
It is really unfortunate that some people will resort to murder of something so innocent for whatever other reason they rationalize in their mind.. I can't understand how it can't be viewed as murder?

peace!
Reply

m123
10-16-2007, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The Catholic Church is about as flexible as a brick wall. :hmm:

Segregation? Would you please explain?
An example would be real nice.
peace,

Because people like to tailor their beliefs to suit their own desires and convenience. No two people will ever agree exctly on religion, that's the main reason there is so much conflict in the world,someone rebels against their church's doctrine and makes a new one, that gets popular and so forth, an example the church of england, set up by a man,henry the 8th.
Reply

wilberhum
10-16-2007, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by m123
peace,

Because people like to tailor their beliefs to suit their own desires and convenience. No two people will ever agree exctly on religion, that's the main reason there is so much conflict in the world,someone rebels against their church's doctrine and makes a new one, that gets popular and so forth, an example the church of england, set up by a man,henry the 8th.
The Church of England shows how flexable the Catholic Church is?

I guess I missed some thing. :rolleyes:
Reply

Amadeus85
10-16-2007, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The Church of England shows how flexable the Catholic Church is?

I guess I missed some thing. :rolleyes:
No, i think that he means that The Church of England is trying to change its theology and teachings, because the world is changing.
Reply

wilberhum
10-16-2007, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
No, i think that he means that The Church of England is trying to change its theology and teachings, because the world is changing.
M123 said
the catholic church has become more flexible nowerdays, thats why theres segregation within them.
The relply makes no sense. Well unless he/she thinks the Church of England is part of the Chtholic Church. :-[
Reply

Amadeus85
10-16-2007, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
M123 said

The relply makes no sense. Well unless he/she thinks the Church of England is part of the Chtholic Church. :-[
I think you got it ^o)
Reply

wilberhum
10-16-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I think you got it ^o)
I guess when people have no clue what they are talking about, it takes more time to figure out what they think they are talking about. :D
Reply

Amadeus85
10-16-2007, 09:53 PM
Relation between christian churches arent easy topic :P
Reply

m123
10-16-2007, 10:03 PM
salam,peace,

i guess i confused you lot, sorry, i didn't mean to, i was typing fast so i skipped a bit, i am aware of the fact that the church of england is not part of the Catholic Church, i was trying to say that the segregation between the two churches reflects how flexible other churches have become through time
the example being the church of england, so as society changes so do the ruling of certain issues in some churches regarding, gays,ivf treatments organ donation ect...sorry again hope this solved some confusion. magsalama, peace.
Reply

Amadeus85
10-16-2007, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by m123
salam,peace,

i guess i confused you lot, sorry, i didn't mean to, i was typing fast so i skipped a bit, i am aware of the fact that the church of england is not part of the Catholic Church, i was trying to say that the segregation between the two churches reflects how flexible other churches have become through time
the example being the church of england, so as society changes so do the ruling of certain issues in some churches regarding, gays,ivf treatments organ donation ect...sorry again hope this solved some confusion. magsalama, peace.
Yes but notice that Roman Catholic Church didnt change its teachings to please society in recent times. I think that its the main reason of the anti-catholic backlash :blind: But well.. Im just a catholic so my opinions are a bit biased :-[
Reply

wilberhum
10-16-2007, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by m123
salam,peace,

i guess i confused you lot, sorry, i didn't mean to, i was typing fast so i skipped a bit, i am aware of the fact that the church of england is not part of the Catholic Church, i was trying to say that the segregation between the two churches reflects how flexible other churches have become through time
the example being the church of england, so as society changes so do the ruling of certain issues in some churches regarding, gays,ivf treatments organ donation ect...sorry again hope this solved some confusion. magsalama, peace.
Well now that would be true. :peace:
But, One should not talk/type faster than they can think. :embarrass
Every religion ends up with many sects and divisions.

That is one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that all religions are "Man Made".
Reply

wilberhum
10-16-2007, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Yes but notice that Roman Catholic Church didnt change its teachings to please society in recent times. I think that its the main reason of the anti-catholic backlash :blind: But well.. Im just a catholic so my opinions are a bit biased :-[
Of coures you are biased. :D But, INMHO, you are also accurate. :shade:
Reply

m123
10-16-2007, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Well now that would be true. :peace:
But, One should not talk/type faster than they can think. :embarrass
Every religion ends up with many sects and divisions.

That is one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that all religions are "Man Made".
salam, peace,

could you please expand how your reason led to those conclusion?
Reply

wilberhum
10-16-2007, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by m123
salam, peace,

could you please expand how your reason led to those conclusion?
conclusion?
That you "talk/type faster than they can think"?
Isn't that what you explained?

Or that "Every religion ends up with many sects and divisions"?
Isn't that obvious?

Surly it isn't "I came to the conclusion that all religions are "Man Made""?
Because I answered that. "Every religion ends up with many sects and divisions".

It seams that there have been a minimum of a million religions/sects/devisions.
At less than one change in a million, you think you got the right one?

I liken that to walking into a room with a million balls and you are told that "Maybe" one of them contains a coin. And your response is "I know that blue one in the corner is the one that contains the coin".

I conclude that if there was "One True Religion" it would be so obvious that most everyone would recognize it.

But that's just me.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
10-16-2007, 10:45 PM
Yeah, if there is a merciful God, he or she would definitely make the one religion obvios enough for all people to realize it's the right one... If a God doesn't do that and at the same time punishes disbelievers with eternal fire, then he or she just doesn't fit my definition of mercy.
Reply

m123
10-16-2007, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yeah, if there is a merciful God, he or she would definitely make the one religion obvios enough for all people to realize it's the right one... If a God doesn't do that and at the same time punishes disbelievers with eternal fire, then he or she just doesn't fit my definition of mercy.
salam, peace

god willing i'll get back to you about that one, theres some grey areas in your oppinion, i don't hope to change them or state the whole 'i'm right and your wrong' view,but a response using modern society as an example, god willing write to you then.
Reply

جوري
10-17-2007, 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
conclusion?
That you "talk/type faster than they can think"?
Isn't that what you explained?

Or that "Every religion ends up with many sects and divisions"?
Isn't that obvious?

Surly it isn't "I came to the conclusion that all religions are "Man Made""?
Because I answered that. "Every religion ends up with many sects and divisions".

It seams that there have been a minimum of a million religions/sects/devisions.
At less than one change in a million, you think you got the right one?

I liken that to walking into a room with a million balls and you are told that "Maybe" one of them contains a coin. And your response is "I know that blue one in the corner is the one that contains the coin".

I conclude that if there was "One True Religion" it would be so obvious that most everyone would recognize it.

But that's just me.

you might look at a histological slide like this

and see an ocean of nonsensical pink.. some might think it is a volcanic eruption with a few lava lakes?.. some might assimilate all those whorls to a great piece of art? some might think it cartoonish lasagna gone bad in the sun.. some might think it accidental goo with no meaning a chance event..

some more learned might see it as cells forming connective tissue.. that is what fibroblasts do.. they form connective tissue and they are content to not go beyond that.. and some others might see it as healing cells.. and they wouldn't be wrong indeed those cells come in when there is a wound to form scar tissue.. some others might perceive them to be disfiguring cells?.. face it.. 'scar tissue' never looks like normal tissue it means you are disfigured.. but that is what has come in to save you from having a gaping, open wound .. So you can see how there are only two correct answers.. one deeper than the other.. and one though somewhat correct is very sinister.. for it only saw bad in something that is there to save you....

I suppose what I am trying to say.. the signs are there, if you are looking... and the meaning you attribute, has alot more to do with you than with the one who created you from two cells that your parents donated...
except I honestly think it is so much easier than that, and it won't require you waste 8 yrs of your life to find proper meaning.. you can go as deep or superfical as you like.. but once you have full understanding.. there is no greater reward... I pray you find that reward before it is too late...


peace!
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
you might look at a histological slide like this

and see an ocean of nonsensical pink.. some might think it is a volcanic eruption with a few lava lakes?.. some might assimilate all those whorls to a great piece of art? some might think it cartoonish lasagna gone bad in the sun.. some might think it accidental goo with no meaning a chance event..

some more learned might see it as cells forming connective tissue.. that is what fibroblasts do.. they form connective tissue and they are content to not go beyond that.. and some others might see it as healing cells.. and they wouldn't be wrong indeed those cells come in when there is a wound to form scar tissue.. some others might perceive them to be disfiguring cells?.. face it.. 'scar tissue' never looks like normal tissue it means you are disfigured.. but that is what has come in to save you from having a gaping, open wound .. So you can see how there are only two correct answers.. one deeper than the other.. and one though somewhat correct is very sinister.. for it only saw bad in something that is there to save you....
I suppose what I am trying to say.. the signs are there, if you are looking... and the meaning you attribute, has alot more to do with you than with the one who created you from two cells that your parents donated...
except I honestly think it is so much easier than that, and it won't require you waste 8 yrs of your life to find proper meaning.. you can go as deep or superfical as you like.. but once you have full understanding.. there is no greater reward... I pray you find that reward before it is too late...


peace!
PA,
I think you have come to a couple of erroneous conclusions.
It sounds like you assume I don’t believe in god. That simply is not true. Granted I don’t believe 99% of what you believe, but I do believe in god. I also accept the real possibility that there is no god. I guess that’s a major reason I’m agnostic.
It also seams that you concluded that I believe that all religions are evil. Again, simply not true. The fact that I believe that there is not one true religion and they are all man made does not equate to evil. As most all man made things, religion is not all bad or all good but a mixture of both.

Peace
Wilber
Reply

جوري
10-17-2007, 09:32 PM
Not at all.. What I wrote isn't about what I am assuming or not.. this was a mere analogy to the different conclusions reached by people in real life of our human condition.. some are completely off, some are impervious all together.. some have reached the right conclusion but went no further, some have reached the right conclusion and went beyond the how to the why.. and some have gone to how and why but made an erroneous conclusion.. it was but a modest analogy to the state we find ourselves in, in this world...

I don't want to get into the sea of religions or cult.. it is easy to make things complicated for yourself..

there is much talk of COPD, tons of commercials and products, but there is only one way to perform a Lung volume reduction and bullectomy in COPD and it was first described by Brantigan and colleagues in the late 1950s... You can have many correct assumptions, palliative, mitigatory,but only one most correct that will get you the desired end result and where you eventually want to go!

peace!
Reply

abu_hurriya
10-18-2007, 10:08 AM
as you all know, the position of the catholic, orthodox, and most fundamental protestant churches is that abortion constitutes murder.

i would like to ask a pro-abortion muslim -

1. Is it wrong to kill a fetus over 40 days old?
2. Is it wrong to kill a fetus under 40 days old?
3. Is it wrong to kill a fetus 39.5 days old?
4. Is it wrong to kill a fetus 39.9 days old?

Etc.

When does a fetus become human?
Reply

Malaikah
10-18-2007, 12:00 PM
^When the soul is breathed in. It isn't alive before then. But abortion before the soul is breathed in is still not something that is allowed just because someone felt like it.

As for when the soul is breathed in, there are two opinions- either 40 days or 4 months.
Reply

abu_hurriya
10-18-2007, 03:21 PM
i would like to ask a pro-abortion muslim -

1. Is it wrong to kill a fetus over 40 days old?
2. Is it wrong to kill a fetus under 40 days old?
3. Is it wrong to kill a fetus 39.5 days old?
4. Is it wrong to kill a fetus 39.9 days old?
5. Is it wrong to kill a fetus 39.999 days old?

Please answer my question.

As for when the soul is breathed in, there are two opinions- either 40 days or 4 months.
How can there be options on what constitutes murder? How can this be a horrible sin for one woman but perfectly OK for another?
Reply

جوري
10-18-2007, 04:57 PM
I need to add IT IS NEVER PERFECTLY OK... I am personally strictly speaking of when it is considered a human being.. thus holding those same rights in terms of final arrangements, burial, prayers etc.. if your uterus needs to evacauated at 6 months for a medical emergency, then that is what needs to be done.. there is a difference however in the methods of evacuating a fetus at 6 months gestation and that for individuals using it as a contraceptive.. but I won't get into that here...

peace!
Reply

abu_hurriya
10-18-2007, 08:12 PM
there is a difference however in the methods of evacuating a fetus at 6 months gestation and that for individuals using it as a contraceptive.. but I won't get into that here...
Ok. Where can we get into this?





Someone still please answer my question.
Reply

جوري
10-18-2007, 08:33 PM
I am not sure where getting into evacuating a fetus is of any use on this thread or any other thread.. unless you were studying for your Ob/Gyne boards?

What is your other question?
Reply

Muezzin
10-18-2007, 09:35 PM
Evacuating a foetus...

Does that involve a red ejector button?

Maybe we should all get back to the topic, such as it is.
Reply

Shorty x
10-18-2007, 11:31 PM
salaamz,

There was a very interesting programme on ch4 last night, dispatches, on Abortion.
Before watching that, i got told that after 40 days the soul has entered the body and after that abortion is not allowed.

After watching the programme, it showed how a foetus looked after just 6 weeks, and now i believe that the foetus no matter how small, is a baby, and at just 6 weeks, u could see the tiny little legs, feet, arms and hands. and although the programme was disturbing, coz it showed all live images etc. it could have changed alot of views on women and men all over the world, regardless of what back ground.

so if that was the case at 6 weeks , there cant be much difference in a week.

I think its sad , that abortion levels are rising, particular with young teenage girls, worse still young muslim girls. Whats going wrong?

subhanallah

Shorty xx
Reply

abu_hurriya
10-19-2007, 10:41 AM
Is a 39.9 day old fetus alive?
Reply

جوري
10-19-2007, 02:12 PM
Now you are just splitting hair.. and frankly you've completely missed the point!

I am going to spotlight on it again and briefly... Abortion is wrong! period!

If you have a medical predicament and I have named a couple in the previous page, then at that point it doesn't really matter if you are 26 and a quarter day or 7 month and a day.. if not evacuated, a retained dead fetus can cause a host of problems one most notable would be DIC---(Disseminated intravascular coagulation) = death of not attended to on an emergent basis--you may read about that at your own leisure!

that confidence interval you seek is an interval in which a measurement falls corresponding to a given probability... in this case either the medical doctor decides or the religious scholar, and is only worthy of mention in terms of the medical condition/state of the mother and the latter in terms of rights and burial.. either-- wouldn't really concern you in the least... unless you were the patient or the parent of the deceased wanting to know if you should give it proper burial? what do you think?
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Woodrow
10-19-2007, 04:56 PM
Just my opinion.

Abortion is always wrong. However there are some circumstances in which it is always justified and some circumstances in which it is never justified.

The disagreements seem to be how to determine what circumstance falls into what category.

One person may see pregnancy from a pure scientific, biological function. In which case the only view is going to be is the pregnancy in the best interest of the biological organisms involved, if not surgically remove the pregnancy.

Another person may see pregnancy as being a pure act of God(swt) beyond the control of humans. It is a fact and beyond the desires or control of humans, we can not interfere for any reason.

Still another may say pregnancy is a morality issue. The important thing is that the final result does not violate moral values.

And so on.......

Us humans have the unique ability of being able to confuse the most simple aspects of life. The Islamic view has been fairly well clarified in this thread.

My condensed version of the conclusion is that Abortion is always wrong, but some circumstances do justify it. It would take a knowledgeable scholar to fully explain the exact circumstances under which if would be justified, beyond my ability. I will just say that the average Muslim, who is truly following Islam will never be faced with the choice of deciding if an abortion is justified. Yes, there will be rare cases in which it is a bonafide issue and a wise person faced with that choice would seek advice before acting.
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