Moonlight in the Quran

There are many Quran threads in this section so I thought it is approtpriate to post another one. If mods disagree, they're free to move it...:sunny: Just don't delete it.:mmokay:

Muslims claim the Quran says the light of the moon is reflected light from the sun - noor.
71:15-16:
See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
and made the moon a light (noor) in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp (siraaj)?

Noor is supposed to mean "borrowed" or "reflected" light.

But then
24:35:
Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche
and within it a Lamp (misbah): the Lamp (misbah) enclosed in Glass:
the glass as it were a brilliant star:
Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive,
neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous,
though fire scarce touched it:
Light (noor) upon Light (noor)!
God does guide whom He will to His Light (noor):
God does set forth Parables for men: and God does know all things.

Allah is described with the same word, noor. Strange...

25:61:
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp (siraaj)
And a moon which has reflected light (muneer).

Here the moon's light is described with a different word, muneer, which is supposed to mean "reflected light" as well.

3:184
And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light. (kitab al-muneer)

If "muneer" means what muslims suggest it does this verse implies that the light of the Quran is a borrowed, reflected light. Strange...

33:45-46:
O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness,
a Bearer of Glad Tidings and a Warner
and as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave
and as a lamp spreading light. (wa siraajan muneeran)

This verse is particulary odd. Siraaj and muneer are used in the same sentence. In 71:15 the word siraaj is used for the sun and in 25:61 the word muneer is used to describe the moon's reflected light. Consequentially this verse implies that the sun's light is reflected. Strange...

In chrono order;

Surah 3 Verse 184
According to the translation I am currently using, it states the ''Book of enlightenment'' - the one you provide was 'the scripture giving light'. In which case, muneer is not using in it's literal sense, rather a metaphor.

Surah 24 Verse 35.
Noor in this case takes the reflected usage. God being described as noor (light) relates to the Prophet's saying ''God has Seventy Thousand Veils of Light and darkness'' - the number is to signify the great quantity as opposed to being a value.

Surah 25 Verse 61.
The translation I have reads: giving light - not reflecting. Simple translation error.

Surah 33 Verses 45 and 46
This verse is refering to the Prophet - moon is not being used in it's literal sense rather as a metaphor.

Sura 71 verse 15 and 16
Not quite sure what you're saying on this one. I'll give it a shot, though.
Noor takes the definition of light - not neccesarrily borrowed or reflected. It depends on the usage of noor - the words before and after will tend to affect whether the usage is ''borrowed'' or ''reflected''.

As a general rule; the Quran uses a lot of metaphor and similie. So be careful in your interpretation of the ayats - not all are literal. In cases such as these, please consult a translation of the Quran with scholar's interpretation. The one I used was A. Yusuf Ali's translation.

I made the thread because some muslims say the Quran 1400 years ago stated a "recently" discovered fact, which makes it a miracle...

aamirsaab said:

Sura 71 verse 15 and 16
Not quite sure what you're saying on this one. I'll give it a shot, though.
Noor takes the definition of light - not neccesarrily borrowed or reflected. It depends on the usage of noor - the words before and after will tend to affect whether the usage is ''borrowed'' or ''reflected''.

Click to expand...

71:16
WajaAAala alqamara feehinna nooran wajaAAala alshshamsa sirajan

24:35
Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi mathalu noorihi kamishkatin feeha misbahun almisbahu fee zujajatin alzzujajatu kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun yooqadu min shajaratin mubarakatin zaytoonatin la sharqiyyatin wala gharbiyyatin yakadu zaytuha yudee-o walaw lam tamsas-hu narun noorun AAala noorin yahdee Allahu linoorihi man yashao wayadribu Allahu al-amthala lilnnasi waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

What exactly makes noor in these two verses reflected?

Surah 25 Verse 61.
The translation I have reads: giving light - not reflecting. Simple translation error

Click to expand...

That makes it wrong. The moon does not produce its own light.

Surah 24 Verse 35.
Noor in this case takes the reflected usage. God being described as noor (light) relates to the Prophet's saying ''God has Seventy Thousand Veils of Light and darkness'' - the number is to signify the great quantity as opposed to being a value.

Click to expand...

Still, God having veils of moon (reflected) light...doesn't sound too Godly to me.:mmokay:
And 24:35 states God is light...

Surah 33 Verses 45 and 46
This verse is refering to the Prophet - moon is not being used in it's literal sense rather as a metaphor.

Click to expand...

This verse doesn't mention the moon, at least not in a literral sense. It mentions a lamp (which usually refers to the sun) spreading light (muneer).
some people claim muneer in verse 25:61 means reflected light, you claim different...
Can muneer also mean reflected light? How?

Whatsthepoint said:

There are many Quran threads in this section so I thought it is approtpriate to post another one. If mods disagree, they're free to move it...:sunny: Just don't delete it.:mmokay:

Muslims claim the Quran says the light of the moon is reflected light from the sun - noor.
71:15-16:
See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
and made the moon a light (noor) in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp (siraaj)?

Noor is supposed to mean "borrowed" or "reflected" light.

Click to expand...

The moon is a light in the night - for the people who see it at night, it's as simple as that. I don't need to tell you the whole details of how a current and voltage lights up a bulb every time i mention the bulb lighting up. I can simply say that the bulb gives off light, no matter what the details are of it producing that light.

But then
24:35:
Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens and the earth.
The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche
and within it a Lamp (misbah): the Lamp (misbah) enclosed in Glass:
the glass as it were a brilliant star:
Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive,
neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous,
though fire scarce touched it:
Light (noor) upon Light (noor)!
God does guide whom He will to His Light (noor):
God does set forth Parables for men: and God does know all things.

Allah is described with the same word, noor. Strange...

Click to expand...

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=388&main_cat_id=18

25:61:
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp (siraaj)
And a moon which has reflected light (muneer).

Here the moon's light is described with a different word, muneer, which is supposed to mean "reflected light" as well.

Click to expand...

Yes, and the moon reflects light off the sun.

3:184
And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light. (kitab al-muneer)

If "muneer" means what muslims suggest it does this verse implies that the light of the Quran is a borrowed, reflected light. Strange...

Click to expand...

It means a book giving off light, for those who accept the guidance and follow in its obedience.

33:45-46:
O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness,
a Bearer of Glad Tidings and a Warner
and as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave
and as a lamp spreading light. (wa siraajan muneeran)

This verse is particulary odd. Siraaj and muneer are used in the same sentence. In 71:15 the word siraaj is used for the sun and in 25:61 the word muneer is used to describe the moon's reflected light. Consequentially this verse implies that the sun's light is reflected. Strange...

Click to expand...

Again, the Prophet is an example to mankind - he is also referred to as a light, the light of guidance [like the Qur'an is], anyone who follows his guidance is on the correct path.

When a light is spread, it is shown to others - this light can then be used as a guide to those who were unable to see in the dark.


This is why Allah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning):

A lamp gives off light, this is what is being referred to when the sun is mentioned as a Siraaj. The light is being reflected onto others and benefiting them by Allah's Grace.





And Allah knows best.

There are many Quran threads in this section so I thought it is approtpriate to post another one. If mods disagree, they're free to move it... Just don't delete it.

Muslims claim the Quran says the light of the moon is reflected light from the sun - noor.
71:15-16:
See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
and made the moon a light (noor) in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp (siraaj)?

Noor is supposed to mean "borrowed" or "reflected" light.

Click to expand...

I was asked to partake in this thread though I am pressed for time today as the holidays are off, but I ask you what your beef is with the above verse? Noor has many meanings and is contingent on the entire sentence structure and how it is used or conjugated.
for your viewing pleasure I present

Dictionaries - القواميس

noor = نُور
and the many different ways it can be used

Arabic - English
light , gleam , emergence , illumination , limelight

bloom , blossom , light
أَضاءَ
beam , lighten , wink , glow , light , spotlight , illuminate , winkle , flash , twinkle , sparkle , illumine , flicker , enlighten (the mind , etc.) , glisten , glow , glimmer , gleam , glint , glitter , light up , fill with light , furnish or supply with light(s) , coruscate
undeceive

But then
24:35:
Allah is the Light (noor) of the heavens


and the earth.

The Parable of His Light (noor) is as if there were a Niche
and within it a Lamp (misbah): the Lamp (misbah) enclosed in Glass:
the glass as it were a brilliant star:
Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive,
neither of the east nor of the west,
whose oil is well-nigh luminous,
though fire scarce touched it:
Light (noor) upon Light (noor)!
God does guide whom He will to His Light (noor):
God does set forth Parables for men: and God does know all things.

Allah is described with the same word, noor. Strange...

Click to expand...

why is it strange? surely even in English you have heard of Heteroradical Homonyms ?I am afraid that your questions is lost to me, Allah has described himself in multitudes of ways, those that we know from his 99 names to various descriptions, Allah has described himself as THE light and as time.. and can be noted here:
It is authentically reported on the authority of Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Allah, Most Blessed, Most High, says: "The son of Adam wrongs Me: He curses time, though I am time: In My Hands are all things and I cause the night to follow the day." 2 In another narration, He (peace be upon him) says: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah Most Blessed, Most High."

thus again I am at a loss as to why Allah describing himself as noor as or any other form is somewhat of a conundrum to you?

25:61:
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp (siraaj)
And a moon which has reflected light (muneer).

Here the moon's light is described with a different word, muneer, which is supposed to mean "reflected light" as well.

Click to expand...

Dictionaries - القواميس
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/
Arabic - English

Moneer = مُنِير
مُنِير صـــــفـــــــة مُنِير , مُضِيء
illuminated , lighted , lightened , lit , luminous , luminiferous


just for fun, since we are descending in word play in a language you have mastered can you tell me the difference between
noor, anwar, nouran, nourain, moneer, noora, moneera?
All of them derivative of the same word Noor

3:184
And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light. (kitab al-muneer)

If "muneer" means what muslims suggest it does this verse implies that the light of the Quran is a borrowed, reflected light. Strange...

Click to expand...

Tell me you are not so dense as to think one word can have just one meaning? if that were the case, why in English then do we have homomorphism?

a few examples

• Two words that are spelled the same way but (a) mean different things, (b) come from different roots, or (c) are pronounced differently, are called homographs. "Wind," for instance, can refer to air in motion or to the action of tightening a spring.
• Two words that are pronounced alike, but not necessarily spelled alike, are called homophones: "rain" and "reign," for instance, are homophones.
• Two words that are spelled the same way but (a) mean different things, (b) come from different roots, or (c) are pronounced differently, are called homographs. "Wind," for instance, can refer to air in motion or to the action of tightening a spring.
• Two words that come from different roots can be described as heteroradical.
• And two words that are pronounced and spelled the same but mean different things are called homonyms.
• So two words that are spelled the same, and pronounced the same, but mean different things and are derived from different roots, could be called "heteroradical homonyms." But that's a mouthful; so around here we just call them "homomorphs," words that have "the same shape." It's not a precisely accurate term, but after all, few terms are precisely accurate. The terms "homoglyph" and "hetymon" are also occasionally used as synonyms for "homomorph." ("Hetymon" being a portmanteau word roughly short for hetero-etymon, a neologism intended to mean "different source words.")

taken from http://www.kith.org/logos/words/lower/h.html

33:45-46:
O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness,
a Bearer of Glad Tidings and a Warner
and as one who invites to Allah's (Grace) by His leave
and as a lamp spreading light. (wa siraajan muneeran)

This verse is particulary odd. Siraaj and muneer are used in the same sentence. In 71:15 the word siraaj is used for the sun and in 25:61 the word muneer is used to describe the moon's reflected light. Consequentially this verse implies that the sun's light is reflected. Strange...

Click to expand...

siraaj سِرَاج اســــــــــــم نِبْراس , مِصْباح
cresset , lamp , lantern , light
or

سَرَّاج اســــــــــــم صانِعُ السُّرُوجِ أو بائِعُها
saddler


Perhaps if you can articulate your question a little bit better, we'd understand what it is you are having difficulty with. Just for the record I have seen this argument before on here from a fellow named basirah, and know exactly which website it comes from. I feel after a while, that debatere isn't quite sure what he is talking about, aside from obvious no knowledge in the languages--is it the game of splitting hair?

thank you
cheers

Whatsthepoint guy, you should watch the debate of Dr.Zakir Naik and William Campbell titled : "The Quran And The Bible In The Light Of Science".
There you have everything explained . . so, enjoy watching!

If you can't find it on YouTube, let me know, I will give you a link where you can download the debate and watch it! DEAL?

71:16
WajaAAala alqamara feehinna nooran wajaAAala alshshamsa sirajan
Does this verse say the moon's light is reflected or not? hoe exactly? Can anyone produce an explanation/analysis for a non-arabic-spreaker, please.

Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi mathalu noorihi kamishkatin feeha misbahun almisbahu fee zujajatin alzzujajatu kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun yooqadu min shajaratin mubarakatin zaytoonatin la sharqiyyatin wala gharbiyyatin yakadu zaytuha yudee-o walaw lam tamsas-hu narun noorun AAala noorin yahdee Allahu linoorihi man yashao wayadribu Allahu al-amthala lilnnasi waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
What's the nature of light (noor) in this ayat? Reflected, produced, something else...?

25:61
Tabaraka allathee jaAAala fee alssama-i buroojan wajaAAala feeha sirajan waqamaran muneeran
Qatada says this verse states the moonlight is a reflected light (Amirsaab says different...). Again, how?
And why would one verse state the moonlight is reflected and another one that it gives light...?

33:46
WadaAAiyan ila Allahi bi-ithnihi wasirajan muneeran
And an analysis of this sentence, please.

The explanation I gave you using the dictionary is quite sufficient..

how can you reconcile the difference between 'wind' and 'wind' save for the entire sentence?
the wind blew against my window, as opposed to wind Up Toys for your desk?

the sentence has to be read all together to evoke the meaning, you can't take a word in a singular form and build up an argument by it. It is mindless. You don't do it in English and you most certainy don't do it in Arabic.


cheers

PurestAmbrosia said:

siraaj سِرَاج اســــــــــــم نِبْراس , مِصْباح
cresset , lamp , lantern , light
or

سَرَّاج اســــــــــــم صانِعُ السُّرُوجِ أو بائِعُها
saddler


Perhaps if you can articulate your question a little bit better, we'd understand what it is you are having difficulty with. Just for the record I have seen this argument before on here from a fellow named basirah, and know exactly which website it comes from.

Click to expand...

The site we both seem to know made me believe noor and muneer both have only one meaning. And since they are used in context of both produced and reflected lightt, the site (and I) concluded they refer to produced light only as Mohammed, Allah and the Quran are unlikely to give off reflected light...
33:46 was meant to show that muneer is used for produced light.

Whatsthepoint said:

The site we both seem to know made me believe noor and muneer both have only one meaning. And since they are used in context of both produced and reflected lightt, the site (and I) concluded they refer to produced light only as Mohammed, Allah and the Quran are unlikely to give off reflected light...
33:46 was meant to show that muneer is used for produced light.

Click to expand...

But as you can see from the dictionary, which wasn't written as an accompaniment or backup to the Quran, that it isn't.. it in fact has more than one meaning depending on the context.. aside from that I showed you multitudes of derivatives of the word noor itself which can mean many different things.. you may purchase Al-Mawrid English-Arabic, Arabic-English Dictionary. المورد مزدوج and browse through it.. Arabic is a very rich language, If I can use just the word noor to make nouran, norein, noora, noor, muneer, anwar, then I assure you using it by itself can have different meanings depending on the context..


cheers

PurestAmbrosia said:

The explanation I gave you using the dictionary is quite sufficient..

Click to expand...

No it's not.
Anyway, none of the words from the dictionary mean reflect in a clear sense (and there is an arabic word for reflected light, why wasn't it used?), and Zakir anik in his lecture/debate says something about borrowed light, which doesn't seem to be in the dictionary.
I'd be very hppy with an analysis...:smile:

Whatsthepoint said:

No it's not.
Anyway, none of the words from the dictionary mean reflect in a clear sense (and there is an arabic word for reflected light, why wasn't it used?), and Zakir anik in his lecture/debate says something about borrowed light, which doesn't seem to be in the dictionary.
I'd be very hppy with an analysis...:smile:

Click to expand...

There is nothing I can do with that which you wish to accept or reject..

you want a proper tafisr then I suggest that of ibn kathir
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=71&tid=55372

PurestAmbrosia said:

There is nothing I can do with that which you wish to accept or reject..

you want a proper tafisr then I suggest that of ibn kathir
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=71&tid=55372

Click to expand...

(Allah has created the seven heavens in tiers and has made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp) meaning, He made a distinction between them (the sun and moon) in reference to their lighting. He made each one of them in a set manner with a distinct quality so that the night and day may be known. They (the night and day) are known by the rising and setting of the sun. He also determined fixed stations and positions for the moon, and He made its light vary so that sometimes it increases until it reaches a maximum, then it begins to decrease until it is completely veiled. This shows the passing of months and years. This is as Allah said,
(It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for its stages that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. Allah did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ayat in detail for people who have knowledge.) (10:5) Concerning Allah's statement,
There's nothing about moonlight being a reflected light...

Qari (Mulla `Ali ibn Sultan, d. 1014) cites it in full in his book al-Mawlid al-rawi fi al-mawlid al-nabawi (p. 40), edited by Sayyid Muhammad `Alawi al-Maliki. He also said in his Sharh al-Shifa, in commenting upon the Prophet's title "as a Lamp spreading Light" (33: 46): "Muhammad... is a tremendous light and the source of all lights, he is also a book that gathers up and makes clear all the secrets... sirajan muniran means a luminous sun, because of His saying: "He hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light" (25:61). There is in this verse an indication that the sun is the highest of the material lights and that other lights are outpourings from it
Again, it doesn't say the light is reflected...

islamic said:

Whatsthepoint guy, you should watch the debate of Dr.Zakir Naik and William Campbell titled : "The Quran And The Bible In The Light Of Science".
There you have everything explained . . so, enjoy watching!

If you can't find it on YouTube, let me know, I will give you a link where you can download the debate and watch it! DEAL?

Click to expand...

Their debate is the main reason I decided to make additional research about it...

Along with what sis PA is saying, i'll explain my stance to what i say.



The torch gives light.


The sun gives light.



Does the sun produce light? Yes.

Does the torch produce light? No, the bulb itself doesn't produce light - rather its dependent upon the electricity.


Everytime i mention that a bulb gives off light, do i always have to mention that it was the electricity which produced that light? Or is it sufficient for me to mention it once, or a few times and then say that the bulb gives off light afterwards, knowing that i've explained my stance to it already in a past conversation?


Think about that.


The verse which you mention where it's stated that the moon gives light, yes it does (ask any traveller who sees the moon, they see it giving light at night) - in one verse it mentions that it gives light, in another it mentions that it reflects its light. In conclusion combine both verses and come to the conclusion that the moon does give off light, and it does so by reflecting the light of the sun.

It's mainly the people of innovation and misguidance who will pick one verse only and not take all the texts from the Qur'an and Sunnah to come to a conclusion.

The Qur'an and Sunnah explain each other, we take all the texts and come to a conclusion. Not just selected ones which fit our desires.




Peace.

- Qatada - said:

Along with what sis PA is saying, i'll explain my stance to what i say.
The torch gives light.
The sun gives light.
Does the sun produce light? Yes.
Does the torch produce light? No, the bulb itself doesn't produce light - rather its dependent upon the electricity.
Everytime i mention that a bulb gives off light, do i always have to mention that it was the electricity which produced that light? Or is it sufficient for me to mention it once, or a few times and then say that the bulb gives off light afterwards, knowing that i've explained my stance to it already in a past conversation?
Think about that.
The verse which you mention where it's stated that the moon gives light, yes it does (ask any traveller who sees the moon, they see it giving light at night) - in one verse it mentions that it gives light, in another it mentions that it reflects its light. In conclusion combine both verses and come to the conclusion that the moon does give off light, and it does so by reflecting the light of the sun.

Click to expand...

Both the sun and a lightbulb are a source of light, one with internal the other with external source of energy, yet they both produce and therefore give light, the moon doesn't. But that's just pointless semantics...
I'm no longer sure if any of the erses refers to the reflection of light...Qari (Mulla `Ali ibn Sultan, d. 1014) didn't think so either...

Whatsthepoint said:

Both the sun and a lightbulb are a source of light, one with internal the other with external source of energy, yet they both produce and therefore give light, the moon doesn't. But that's just pointless semantics...

Click to expand...

And if i said to you that the bulb gave off light, would you doubt me? No you wouldn't, but you wouldn't be arguing for ages asking me to mention everytime that it was the electricity which caused that light to show up on the bulb.

Similarly, in some passages its mentioned that the moon reflects light, in others it mentions that it gives light (i.e. for travellers etc) without explaining the whole process all over again.


When we read Qur'an, we read in some parts that we have to prostrate, in other parts that we have to stand up in prayer. One description is mentioned in one part, another in another part. What we do is combine the texts to come to a conclusion. We are doing similar with this, and that is the correct way.

I'm no longer sure if any of the erses refers to the reflection of light...Qari (Mulla `Ali ibn Sultan, d. 1014) didn't think so either...

Click to expand...

If he didn't agree, then that's upto him. He is a human and he is fallible.





Regards.

- Qatada - said:

It's mainly the people of innovation and misguidance who will pick one verse only and not take all the texts from the Qur'an and Sunnah to come to a conclusion.

The Qur'an and Sunnah explain each other, we take all the texts and come to a conclusion. Not just selected ones which fit our desires.

Peace.

Click to expand...

It would be interesting if muslims started treating the Bible the same.:rollseyes
Anyway, I copied the verses from a site with anti-islamic tendencies, so it's rather obvious that they would pick verses that fit their desires.:-\

Whatsthepoint said:

It would be interesting if muslims started treating the Bible the same.:rollseyes
Anyway, I copied the verses from a site with anti-islamic tendencies, so it's rather obvious that they would pick verses that fit their desires.:-\

Click to expand...

well done

what has happened their is they have just used words and tried to twist them and make a big thing about them, and people fall for it and then get confused . . . just like you did mate