Christianity Debunked!

OK, I'm talking about the current Pauline Christianity and not the original Christianity practiced by the true followers of Jesus Christ(pbuh). Muslims, ever wonder where all that so-called "inspired by the holy spirit" stuff in the Bible came from? I mean, how was the Injeel(the Gospel) corrupted and what "inspired" it? I think this documentary gives an awesome explanation.

Zeitgeist - The Movie - 2 of 13 (Part 1 of 3 on Religion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE

Zeitgeist - The Movie - 3 of 13 (Part 2 of 3 on Religion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmzailhVl-U&NR=1

Zeitgeist - The Movie - 4 of 13 (Part 3 of 3 on Religion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6UdQxt7b24&feature=related


Before you come back smiting me, I would like to point out the irony myself. Indeed, this is an atheistic approach towards religion and it's original purpose was to discredit religion BUT/HOWEVER what it actually indirectly did was debunk the Pauline Christianity as we know it today. I know that the author seems to question miracles, and existence of Jesus and many other things which would test Muslims as well. Yet, I believe those things have been discussed in earlier threads. and if not, let us discuss them in other threads. The main purpose of this thread was to shed some light on where did the following things creeped into the original Injeel(the Gospel) and became the Bible as we know it today and debate on them.

#Jesus dead for 3 days
#Jesus Resurrected
#Star in the east
#12 disciples
#Jesus being the Son of God

Too bad the authors didn't know the Muslim version of Jesus Christ(pbuh).

See my debate against David Wood on Christianity over here http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/multimedia

I think it's pretty clear that christianity evolved from bits and pieces of many pagan ideas that long pre-dated it. There were many gods and goddesses that 1) were crucified 2) were resurrected 3 days later, etc. Also, the christian Jesus supposedly "died" in 33 AD, but no gospel was written until at least 40 years later. That fact alone, in my opinion, completely debunks christianity, as it's simply implausible.

The problem is that the vast majority of christians has never even read the bible, much less has researched the history of this religion. I've pointed to these and many other facts to various christians and the reply was unanimous - they denied it all, a "la-la-la I can't hear you" mentality. It just amazes me that they could be so close-minded and in such complete denial.

Peace,

Dale

hmmm5 said:

OK, I'm talking about the current Pauline Christianity and not the original Christianity practiced by the true followers of Jesus Christ(pbuh).

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Do you really think that John's statement near the end of his Gospel

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(John 20:30-31)​

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represents "Pauline Chrisianity" rather than the understanding of John?

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

(1 Peter 1:3-5)​

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These are not Paul's words, but Peter, one of Jesus' closest disciples.

Notice it is not Paul, but James who talks about how God's Spirit dwells within us (something that angels cannot do, but only God himself can):

Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?

(James 4:5)​

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We don't even know who wrote Hebrews, though it wasn't Paul, and some of the strongest and most influential ideas regarding Jesus' are presented in it:

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

(Hebrews 1:3)​

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

(Hebrews 2:14-17)​

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And then there is this which represents the practice of the early Christians even before any of Paul's letters were ever written:

[Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism]
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water.

[Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion]
We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You modest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Thou, Master almighty, didst create all things for Thy name's sake; You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. Before all things we thank Thee that You are mighty; to Thee be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou have prepared for it; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God, the Son of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen.

(the Didache)​

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And here is part of a letter attributed to Paul's contemporary Barnabas, who it is recorded in Acts opposed Paul at times:

Therefore the Son of God came in the flesh to this end, that He might sum up the complete tale of their sins against those who persecuted and slew His prophets.

To this end therefore He endured. For God saith of the wounds of His flesh that they came from them; When they shall smite their own shepherd, then shall the sheep of the flock be lost.

But He Himself desired so to suffer; for it was necessary for Him to suffer on a tree. For he that prophesied said concerning Him, Spare My soul form the sword; and, Pierce My flesh with nails, for the congregations of evil-doers have risen up against Me.

And again He saith; Behold I have given My back to stripes, and My cheeks to smitings, and My face did I set as a hard rock.

(Epistle of Barnabas 5:11-14)​

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Note I am not saying that you believe or even that you should believe that any of the above statements regarding Christ or the Holy Spirit are true. If you accept the Qur'an, you cannot believe these statements are true. But I hope that by reading them you will note that the Christianity that is in existence today is NOT "Pauline Christianity", but a theology woven together with insights from a whole host different writers. Yes, it most certainly includes Paul, but also others -- many of whom spent time with Jesus when he was here in the flesh.

Zeitgeist part I has many errors. A better comparision of Christianity to pagan religions would be the book Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola.

The moon God of Arabia was Hubal. There were certain Goddesses who represented the phases of the moon, such as Mannat, Uzza, etc.

The deity of Byzantium, later Constantinople, was represented by a crescent. Later, Constantine added a star which depicted the Virgin Mary. The Turkish conquerers of Constantinople added this symbol as a sign of good luck.

The Arabic word for God is il-lah. Allah means "the one". Christians Arabs also use il-lah and Allah for God.

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I believe that if we are to read other peoples scriptures we should search for a greatest good………

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and understanding.

Eric

InfinityRamAir said:

I think it's pretty clear that christianity evolved from bits and pieces of many pagan ideas that long pre-dated it. There were many gods and goddesses that 1) were crucified 2) were resurrected 3 days later, etc. Also, the christian Jesus supposedly "died" in 33 AD, but no gospel was written until at least 40 years later. That fact alone, in my opinion, completely debunks christianity, as it's simply implausible.

The problem is that the vast majority of christians has never even read the bible, much less has researched the history of this religion. I've pointed to these and many other facts to various christians and the reply was unanimous - they denied it all, a "la-la-la I can't hear you" mentality. It just amazes me that they could be so close-minded and in such complete denial.

Peace,

Dale

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Hi and welcome Ramair. Yup, we discuss the miracles of jesus and others every week.

Christianity destroyed itself a couple of years ago when it admitted and apologised to Darwin for mocking him, when all they actually did as make themselves look utter spanners.

With creationism out of the window, and evolution as factual now as it was 100 years ago, we can see we are decended from other mammals, not popped into the world 6000 years ago fully upright or 90 feet tall or whatever, and religion is debunked. Christianity however made the mistake of accepting this, hence making it useless.

barney said:

Hi and welcome Ramair. Yup, we discuss the miracles of jesus and others every week.

Christianity destroyed itself a couple of years ago when it admitted and apologised to Darwin for mocking him, when all they actually did as make themselves look utter spanners.

With creationism out of the window, and evolution as factual now as it was 100 years ago, we can see we are decended from other mammals, not popped into the world 6000 years ago fully upright or 90 feet tall or whatever, and religion is debunked. Christianity however made the mistake of accepting this, hence making it useless.

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Hey 6000 years may not be true just like the Quran the original Hebrew of the bible the word "Day" represented an age.

OFF TOPIC posts removed. Please return to the topic on hand in the original post and stay on topic

ShalomAll said:

Hey 6000 years may not be true just like the Quran the original Hebrew of the bible the word "Day" represented an age.

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Actually in the Bible the word is "Day", in the Koran it is "Day/Period of time unspecified" The word used meant both.

The "Day" bit only became a problem when the age of the earth was found out. Only then did the theists scramble to change the context whilst vehmently denying it, even to this day.

barney said:

Actually in the Bible the word is "Day", in the Koran it is "Day/Period of time unspecified" The word used meant both.

The "Day" bit only became a problem when the age of the earth was found out. Only then did the theists scramble to change the context whilst vehmently denying it, even to this day.

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Same with the Hebrew scripture

In reading Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic I find that it is very obvious that all three of the semitic languages are dialects of the same language.

The word for Day or period of time is spelled ya-wa-meem In all 3 it is pronounced youm in Hebrew, and yawm in Arabic. In Aramaic I find both pronunciations being used. I also find that in the 3 languages the word is used to mean both a specific day or an undefined period of time. The meaning can only be understood fully if the spoken pronunciation is heard as it can not be separated by the manner written, but it can by the oral rendition.

In the semitic languages the oral version is more exact then the written, which is one reason the 3 stress the importance of memorizing the oral.

Perhaps its more important to learn how these phrases are taught nowadays. Or even in the past.
In the past the Brit Kids were taught six days.

I certainly will confirm that the standard halfassed christian lipservice upbringing that 90% of Brit kids attend, mumble six days in their brainwashing lessons. Hey, kids dont think too much. And its not really a worry if they get it wrong, they can just copy stuff down they are told and save the independent thinking for the "leaders"

Anyone offer what the other schools teach in practice? Past and Present?

Aside from the fact that the Bible itself teaches that one day with God is like a thousand years, thus reminding one that much of the scriptures are to understood as figurative speach and not a literal scientific explanation nor an historical document. Exactly how does accepting current theories about the evolution of the human species debunk Christianity which has its central focus a person who is fully a modern human being however the species came into being?

In that case Grace, God created the universe in 6000 years.
Which again is , even resorting to scriptural loopholes, simply a lot of old tosh.

The geneology of Adam, the first man /first woman, woman from ribs/garden of eden/ talking snake/ chronology of the creation with all its non-photo synthisising plants/ the huge sheet of water above the surface of the earth,....


It debunks it in probably over a hundred ways.(At least in the form that you can rely on the bible as a book to take anything as other than a wild and mostly horrible metaphor).

Zeitgeist, both 1 and 2 (having watched them), were a total waste of time.

It debunks nothing. Referencing poor, fabrication in the masses. Don't spread this around really, people are way too easily brainwashed.

Also, if you actually paid careful attention - it tries to debunk religion as a whole - including making Moses and others false prophets, just tales (thats against Islam too). Zeitgeist producers are against all religions.

Zeitgeist 2 is funnier though, its as if it is promoting paganism.

In the end, it doesn't take a genius to work out - it is a U.S political campaign, albeit a bad one.

Greetings and peace be with you barney;

With creationism out of the window, and evolution as factual now as it was 100 years ago, we can see we are decended from other mammals,

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Can evolution work without God?

Take care,

Eric

barney said:

In that case Grace, God created the universe in 6000 years.
Which again is , even resorting to scriptural loopholes, simply a lot of old tosh.

The geneology of Adam, the first man /first woman, woman from ribs/garden of eden/ talking snake/ chronology of the creation with all its non-photo synthisising plants/ the huge sheet of water above the surface of the earth,....


It debunks it in probably over a hundred ways.(At least in the form that you can rely on the bible as a book to take anything as other than a wild and mostly horrible metaphor).

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Not all Christians, in fact a great deal, believe that the Earth is so young. This is called "Young Earth Creationism" and it is mostly found in the most extreme denominations. Even the calculations leading to this number or not exact.

hmmm5 said:

Too bad the authors didn't know the Muslim version of Jesus Christ(pbuh).

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Okay here is a question I have, on the topic of early Christianity, and mind you I have studied a great deal about it. Not enough for my liking but more than most.

I should point out that the Gospels are not the only source of information that historians have that Jesus was, as far as they knew crucified. Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentions Jesus being crucified. And then there are the letters of Paul, which are actually older than the Gospels. Paul started writing his letters only a few years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. There are other matters to take into account but I shall not go into it.

What I would like to know is, who decieved mankind? Even historians agree that Jesus was crucified. Why do the switch with Judas? Islam teaches that someone was made to look like Jesus and was crucifed in his place? Why?

Jesus being crucified was being preached long before the gospels were written. Not just Paul spent years on the road preaching on Jesus, being beaten and thrown out of towns, being thrown in prison and eventually killed. The disciples were also preaching this.

So, one cannot help wondering, why the deception then? Did Jesus tell his disciples it would not be him on the cross?

The gospels were written, primarily because of the crucifixion. They have been called Passion narratives with long introductions. [Passion in this case means suffering] You would not have the gospels [the Injil] without the crucifxion. You cannot say they were just changed. It would be like taking Hogwarts out of a Harry Potter novel. This was what they were about.

On top of that the crucifixion was not a good thing to them! To preach Jesus as a crucified messiah was insane back then. Most people expected the Messiah to come in and crush the foes of Isreal. So to preach he was the crucified messiah meant something had to have happened to make them believe this.

On top of that why did God wait 600 years to reveal the truth? Why did he allow people to create an entire religion surrounding something that was false? What do people expect, for Christians to, on learning of Prophet Muhammad suddenly drop everything, "Everyone, take down the crosses! There has been a mistake! New revelation! Jesus never was on the cross?"

And why the deception in the first place? Why trick people? Even outsider, nonChristian historians from that day write that Jesus was crucified. They have nothing to gain from this. No reason to lie.

On top of that why did God wait 600 years to reveal the truth? Why did he allow people to create an entire religion surrounding something that was false? What do people expect, for Christians to, on learning of Prophet Muhammad suddenly drop everything, "Everyone, take down the crosses! There has been a mistake! New revelation! Jesus never was on the cross?"

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There were different alleged prophets prior to Muhammed (S). The concept that there were no prophets between Jesus (AHS) and Muhammed (S) is based on a hadith in Sahih Bukhari. As far as I know, there were many alleged prophets such as Mani.

Did early Christians have iconography of their own? What I noticed is that most Christian iconography is borrowed from polytheistic traditions mainly in Italy, Greece, and Egypt, not to mention Mesopotamia and Assyria.

I have no doubt that Jesus (AHS) was lifted into heaven and that a look-alike was crucified. Frankly, I think that Jesus (AHS) himself didn't know that he wasn't going to be crucified. Life was a test for him as well, being a prophet. Frankly, I see the Christian tradition of cross veneration being borrowed from the Egyptian Ankh. The concept of the cross itself has been popular throughout the polytheistic world, from the Swastika of Vedic tradition, the Babylonian cross, the Mesomerican cross, the "4 dots" of the Dards, for example. All clearly represent the "death of the sun" during the winter solstice.

Then there's the other symbol of Christianity, the fish. Another Zoroastrian-mesopotamian concept. The Zoroastrians draw the Swastika, Fish, Ses, etc in front of their doorsteps using chalk like how the Hindus do so. There are way too many similarities with polytheistic traditions, when Christianity is compared to them. Way too many.

Peace.