Christianity Debunked!

I have no doubt that Jesus (AHS) was lifted into heaven and that a look-alike was crucified. Frankly, I think that Jesus (AHS) himself didn't know that he wasn't going to be crucified. Life was a test for him as well, being a prophet. Frankly, I see the Christian tradition of cross veneration being borrowed from the Egyptian Ankh. The concept of the cross itself has been popular throughout the polytheistic world, from the Swastika of Vedic tradition, the Babylonian cross, the Mesomerican cross, the "4 dots" of the Dards, for example. All clearly represent the "death of the sun" during the winter solstice.

Then there's the other symbol of Christianity, the fish. Another Zoroastrian-mesopotamian concept. The Zoroastrians draw the Swastika, Fish, Ses, etc in front of their doorsteps using chalk like how the Hindus do so. There are way too many similarities with polytheistic traditions, when Christianity is compared to them. Way too many.

Peace.

So the symbol may have previous uses or been adopted from previous religions and or cultures. In fact it probably was and better for it. The fish that is. The fish, or Ichthys, was used as a secret symbol between early Christians. One would draw the first half, and if the other was a Christian they would finish it. Better to have a symbol that would not stand out as Christians were persecutred against.

As for the cross, i do not see it as coming from the ancient Egyptians. To them Jesus died on the cross, it is a sign of their salvation. They did not take the idea of Jesus dying for their salvation from ancient Egypt. People look at the idea of Jesus being killed on the cross as being so much later invented, that people got together and created a new faith or adapted old faiths but don't see how totally insane or ridiculious the idea of a crucified messiah was to them. On top of that we know Jesus appeared to be crucified.

But that isn't key to what I am asking. If Jesus did not know then that is even worse for then it means God decieved us. God could have chosen many other ways to save Jesus. Why save him via deception? And why then later condemn the people who follow this, truly believe this to Hell?

The only reason we accept that Jesus was not on the cross was because the Quran says it so, a form of blind faith. Historically Jesus died on the cross. All the evidence, other than the Quran, even the outside of Christianity evidence also say Jesus died on a cross.
 
Historically Jesus died on the cross. All the evidence, other than the Quran, even the outside of Christianity evidence also say Jesus died on a cross.

Your in possession of some newly discovered contempory manuscripts from 34 AD?
W00T! Congratulations, You are an instant multi-billionaire!
I'm really chuffed for you.

Or are you talking about Josephus?
 
Ok, ATR, forget the cross. Even Keltoi has agreed with me that all of Christian iconography is borrowed from polytheistic traditions.

Now, as far as the Qur'an has revealed, the Injil was the book revealed to Jesus (AHS). Now, the gospel has allegedly been written by the disciples of Jesus (AHS). It makes me wonder where the Injil disappeared off to.

Believe me, I found Christianity attractive at one point, when I was an atheist. A quick study revealed too many pagan attributes. Trinity (Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and many polytheistic traditions), Christmas (Saturnalia, birthday of Sol Invictus), iconography, holy ash (Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and many if not most polytheistic traditions), blood for sin (many many polytheistic traditions), choirs (many polytheistic traditions + judaism), sunday worship (Mithraic mysteries), halos (common everywhere, in all non-Islamic traditions save some controversial depictions of Ali), depiction of angels with wings and devils with horns (polytheism), saint veneration (excuse for continuing idolatry, very similar to Hindu murti veneration), priesthood (same heirachy as the Mithraic mysteries), nuns (vestal virgins), etc. 90% of Christian traditions is based on polytheistic traditions.

I mean, another example would be the Catholic practice of not eating meat on Fridays which was abandoned after the second Vatican council. Reminds me too much of the Hindu tradition of not eating meat on Tuesdays. Even the armed forces here don't serve meat on Tuesdays, regardless of how important protein is for soldiers.

I would suggest you read a book called Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. It gives a detailed explanation of every pagan attribute with historical proof and references.
 
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On top of that why did God wait 600 years to reveal the truth? Why did he allow people to create an entire religion surrounding something that was false? What do people expect, for Christians to, on learning of Prophet Muhammad suddenly drop everything, "Everyone, take down the crosses! There has been a mistake! New revelation! Jesus never was on the cross?"

.......

And why the deception in the first place? Why trick people? Even outsider, nonChristian historians from that day write that Jesus was crucified. They have nothing to gain from this. No reason to lie.

First, the issue of the deception. As far as I know (and I'm not scholar mind you), Unitarians as well as other "sects" of Christianity that don't follow the trinity, generally believe that Jesus (as) was crucified. They still believe he was just a prophet, but they do say that he was killed on the cross.

It does not shake the foundations of Islam to say that every historical document points to the crucifixion of Jesus (as), because to paraphrase what was pointed out earlier, it was made to appear as though he had been crucified. In fact, it actually make sense, because nobody else but Allah SWT would know that it was not in fact Jesus (as) on the cross, but indeed someone else.

Why he was saved in that manner, we don't know; that knowledge rests with Allah SWT alone. Was it deceptive? No. Just because he died on the cross does not mean people instantly realized he was God (actually kind of ridiculous if you think about it that way). Many of the early Christians believe he died on the cross and believed he was just a man, not God incarnate. Again, where the sects differ is in the idea of resurrection.

As far as why Allah SWT waited 600 years to bring Muhammad (SAW), we really don't know. BUT, just like any other test that humanity has been given in life, this stretch of time was a test for the Christians. Let's not forget that the beliefs of the early Christians existed right alongside the beliefs of those who believed in the trinity, so to say that nobody during those 600 years knew of anything but the trinity would be a lie. In fact, because there was such an open opposition from the Church to all "competing" ideologies about Jesus (as), one could hypothesize that these alternate ideas amongst Christians could have been much stronger back then then they are now.
 
Greetings and peace be with you ATR, welcome to the forum.
and mind you I have studied a great deal about it.
If you spend a life time studying you will not find that final proof, but you may become an academic.

In order to have faith in God, you need to accept and trust he exists fully and totally, without that final proof, and then you need to do something.

In the spirit of praying for a greater faith in God.

Eric
 
First, the issue of the deception. As far as I know (and I'm not scholar mind you), Unitarians as well as other "sects" of Christianity that don't follow the trinity, generally believe that Jesus (as) was crucified. They still believe he was just a prophet, but they do say that he was killed on the cross.

It does not shake the foundations of Islam to say that every historical document points to the crucifixion of Jesus (as), because to paraphrase what was pointed out earlier, it was made to appear as though he had been crucified. In fact, it actually make sense, because nobody else but Allah SWT would know that it was not in fact Jesus (as) on the cross, but indeed someone else.

Why he was saved in that manner, we don't know; that knowledge rests with Allah SWT alone. Was it deceptive? No. Just because he died on the cross does not mean people instantly realized he was God (actually kind of ridiculous if you think about it that way). Many of the early Christians believe he died on the cross and believed he was just a man, not God incarnate. Again, where the sects differ is in the idea of resurrection.

As far as why Allah SWT waited 600 years to bring Muhammad (SAW), we really don't know. BUT, just like any other test that humanity has been given in life, this stretch of time was a test for the Christians. Let's not forget that the beliefs of the early Christians existed right alongside the beliefs of those who believed in the trinity, so to say that nobody during those 600 years knew of anything but the trinity would be a lie. In fact, because there was such an open opposition from the Church to all "competing" ideologies about Jesus (as), one could hypothesize that these alternate ideas amongst Christians could have been much stronger back then then they are now.


But you didn't answer my question. In fact you proved my point!

First you say even the Unitarians, though they do not believe in the Trinity believe Jesus was crucified. Which supports my point that everyone believe he was crucified, that you don't even have to be fully Christian.

Second you said exactly what I said. It appeared that Jesus died on the cross and only God knew the truth. That is my entire point. It was a deception. A trick. God lied to us. No, I am not talking about Jesus being God. As you said many who believed him completely man also believed he died on the cross. My entire question is, why did God make it appear like he died on the cross? Why the deception?

As to it shaking the foundation of Islam. We are supposed to believe the entire Quran is true. This is in the Quran. Even to not believe one thing in the Quran is one doubt too many.

If this is a modern and past test to Christians, how? Why? Why would God trick us to test our faith? That would be like what some of the "Young Earth Creationists" believe, that God put signs on Earth, made the planet to appear older just to test our faith. We are supposed to believe in a God who would deceive us to test our faith? If we are to believe this once, what else is there?

Let me repeat, I am not a Christian. But this has been a matter that has been troubling me a lot. The key matter of Christianity is the crucifixion of Jesus, that is primarily from what it started it from, and yet we expect people to drop this because another prophet came along 600 years later telling people they have to believe otherwise. The equivalent would be, an analogy!, is if a later revelation came down saying it was not the Angel Gibreal that came to the prophet but Satan. Like with the crucifixion, in this case, the very foundation of Islam would be being attacked.
 
Greetings and peace be with you ATR, welcome to the forum.

If you spend a life time studying you will not find that final proof, but you may become an academic.

In order to have faith in God, you need to accept and trust he exists fully and totally, without that final proof, and then you need to do something.

In the spirit of praying for a greater faith in God.

Eric

You are Christian?

Trust me. I know! I've had a priest and many others tell me I should consider studying comparative religion and get my degree in divinity and I have actually had people tell me, even insist, that I should consider becoming a priest.

Yes, I agree that God exists. I know God exists. For a time I fought with doubt over that, even though I was raised a Muslim. What I am trying to find now is what "God" I should believe in.

I mentioned in my introduction, that I was raised Muslim but am considering the Episcopal church. I am here because I have some final questions about Islam, stuff I want to know, is my knowledge of Islam wrong? Reasons why I think Anglicanism, to me, is better than Islam, but I could be wrong. This isn't my only question.

I know one cannot get all the proof that makes it beyond a doubt that something is right or wrong but theology is taking what we know of God and making interpretations. Do I, for example, want to believe in a God that would trick people to test their faith? How different is that from what I pointed out about "Young Earth Creationism" I do not think God would deceive us, at least I hope not!
 
You are Christian?
so mocks the faker!

Eric H
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But you didn't answer my question. In fact you proved my point!

First you say even the Unitarians, though they do not believe in the Trinity believe Jesus was crucified. Which supports my point that everyone believe he was crucified, that you don't even have to be fully Christian.

Second you said exactly what I said. It appeared that Jesus died on the cross and only God knew the truth. That is my entire point. It was a deception. A trick. God lied to us. No, I am not talking about Jesus being God. As you said many who believed him completely man also believed he died on the cross. My entire question is, why did God make it appear like he died on the cross? Why the deception?

As to it shaking the foundation of Islam. We are supposed to believe the entire Quran is true. This is in the Quran. Even to not believe one thing in the Quran is one doubt too many.

If this is a modern and past test to Christians, how? Why? Why would God trick us to test our faith? That would be like what some of the "Young Earth Creationists" believe, that God put signs on Earth, made the planet to appear older just to test our faith. We are supposed to believe in a God who would deceive us to test our faith? If we are to believe this once, what else is there?

Let me repeat, I am not a Christian. But this has been a matter that has been troubling me a lot. The key matter of Christianity is the crucifixion of Jesus, that is primarily from what it started it from, and yet we expect people to drop this because another prophet came along 600 years later telling people they have to believe otherwise. The equivalent would be, an analogy!, is if a later revelation came down saying it was not the Angel Gibreal that came to the prophet but Satan. Like with the crucifixion, in this case, the very foundation of Islam would be being attacked.

Essentially your question as to why Allah SWT chose to make people think Jesus (as) was crucified is unknown to us. We put our trust in Allah SWT and we know it is for the best. All we know is that Christians are still divided in beliefs even though they both believed in the crucifixion at the time. So their belief in Jesus as divine rests in something other than the crucifixion; and that is the resurrection.

We also don't know the nature as to how Jesus (as) was saved. The Qur'an is not clear as to exactly how it happened, just that it did. This is consistent with many other instances where the Qur'an gives us just the amount of knowledge we need, and nothing more. That is the perfection of the Word of Allah SWT.

I also would like to point out that history is not unanimous that Jesus (as) died on the cross. In fact, there are several competing theories from historians and some Christian scholars that say he lived and traveled to India, or to France, or what have you. So you see, the more you study this issue, the more confusing it can become because we simply don't know the answer. That knowledge rests with Allah SWT alone.

You are obviously questioning your belief in Islam, and seeing as how you are leaning towards the Episcopalian Church, you tend to be more inclined towards the idea that Jesus is God. And you support this by saying that God "deceived" us in the Qur'an, therefore you feel the Qur'an is invalid. Well, ultimately that's something you have to figure out for yourself. Do you have enough trust in Allah SWT that He has valid reasons for doing what He does?

Getting into the nitty gritty of things is where a lot of people can lose faith, because we just don't know. You can turn around and find yourself in the same position as a Christian (as I did many years ago). Why does God need to be in the form of a trinity? Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? Many Christians simply chalk it up to faith, so they too have no real answers for many things that we might question them on as Muslims.

I'm not sure if any other members can shed some light on this area, but if they can then great. But otherwise, surely you have other issues with Islam aside from the crucifixion. You seem to be torn between two faiths and are unsure where to go. Let us know what else it is about Islam that you are unsure about.
 
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But that isn't key to what I am asking. If Jesus did not know then that is even worse for then it means God decieved us. God could have chosen many other ways to save Jesus. Why save him via deception? And why then later condemn the people who follow this, truly believe this to Hell?
Well, seeing as the Prophet Isa was about to be CRUCIFIED, I think God's act of ''deception'' was an act of mercy! I also think the condemnation is warranted to those who worship the creation and not the Creator.

The only reason we accept that Jesus was not on the cross was because the Quran says it so, a form of blind faith. Historically Jesus died on the cross. All the evidence, other than the Quran, even the outside of Christianity evidence also say Jesus died on a cross.
1) A source backing your statement would be helpful
2) From my knowledge, history showed that someone was crucified. Whether or not it was Jesus is yet to be 100% proven. If you have any evidence of any kind, I would personally love to see and read it so I can make my own mind up :)
 
so mocks the faker!

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Faker? Huh? What are you talking about? I am NOT Christian. I was raised Muslim. At the moment I consider myself agnostic. I am considering Christianity but have not made the switch?

What do you want, a signed certificate from a priest I am not Christian?
 
Well, seeing as the Prophet Isa was about to be CRUCIFIED, I think God's act of ''deception'' was an act of mercy! I also think the condemnation is warranted to those who worship the creation and not the Creator.


1) A source backing your statement would be helpful
2) From my knowledge, history showed that someone was crucified. Whether or not it was Jesus is yet to be 100% proven. If you have any evidence of any kind, I would personally love to see and read it so I can make my own mind up :)

I will bring my sources up tonight, in a few hours. I have work at the moment.
 
It does not shake the foundations of Islam to say that every historical document points to the crucifixion of Jesus (as), because to paraphrase what was pointed out earlier, it was made to appear as though he had been crucified. QUOTE]


If we are to imagine that Jesus actually existed and was a fairly popular prophet as seems likely, then this local celebrity would have been identifiable on his stake/cross.

Bizzarely, taking into account this celebrity, the ex-bibilic sources simply dont acknowlage him at all. It's like Hannah Montana only being talked about in one chatroom in 2070AD rather than her freakish grinning mug being plastered over every surface on earth.
 
If we are to imagine that Jesus actually existed and was a fairly popular prophet as seems likely, then this local celebrity would have been identifiable on his stake/cross.

What many scholars deduce from the Qur'an is that whoever was put up on that cross was made to look like Jesus (as). So you wouldn't be able to tell that it wasn't really Jesus (as). I'm not going to get into all the detailed theories about how it happened because it's basically all speculation. It doesn't aide our faith at all.

In regards to your comment on the presence of Jesus (as) in historical records, I can't say much on that because I'm not familiar with what has been written in history about him outside of the Bible and the Qur'an.
 
Well, seeing as the Prophet Isa was about to be CRUCIFIED, I think God's act of ''deception'' was an act of mercy! I also think the condemnation is warranted to those who worship the creation and not the Creator.


1) A source backing your statement would be helpful
2) From my knowledge, history showed that someone was crucified. Whether or not it was Jesus is yet to be 100% proven. If you have any evidence of any kind, I would personally love to see and read it so I can make my own mind up :)


Firstly we have the four Gospels, that are at present in the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These were written within*†he first century. With Mark, the earliest, as early as 60-65 AD. Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and were written later.

Now people toss out casually that the Injil was changed. [The Injil or Gospels, which are the mentioned Matthew, Mark, Luke and John] however you cannot simply add the crucifixion of Jesus, you cannot simply make minor changes to these Gospels. Now I can understand the idea of Jesus as the Son of God but not the cross. Each Gospel was written with the cross as the primary focus. I have read Matthew and Mark and I can see, there was no reason for them to be written at all if Jesus did not end up on the cross.

Next comes the Epistles of Paul. This is about half of the Bible. Archeologist do know some parts that were changed. They can tell this by looking at the writing style. But nothing about the cross was changed. Primarily the changed parts deal with the role of women in the church, the Pastoral Epistles, called 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus. These were written between 50-60 AD, about 10-15 or so years after Jesus was crucified.

Let me also make a note about Paul. Paul spent years of his life preaching. He was on the road. Numerous times he was beaten, thrown out of towns and eventually he was killed for preaching, as he put it in 1 Corinthians, "We preach Christ crucified" Here is a man who was actually well off, a good position in the Jewish temple who chose to preach Jesus dying on the cross, not decades later but only a few years.

Then there is Josephus, the Jewish historian, who lived between AD. 37-100 and who wrote in his works of Jesus, saying that some believed him to be the Christ, or Messiah, and that he was condemned to the cross by Pilate.

Next comes, less a document fact, but the expectations of the Jews on who the Messiah, or Christ, would be. There are things that can be quoted supporting this but I cannot recall any at the moment. We do know, however, that those Jews of that time who were expecting a Messiah to come, were expecting someone great. Someone who would conquer the enemies of Israel and raise them to great power. A crucified Messiah makes no sense to them. In fact it is said in the Old Testament, that cursed is he who hangs on a tree [is crucified] A cursed Messiah? For them to preach that a crucified Messiah makes no sense. It defies all logic of that time. In fact it was almost suicidal. No Jew would want a crucified Messiah! Most would laugh at the idea. It is the equivalent of someone stepping forward now and preaching David Koresh was the Messiah! They had no reason to preach Jesus crucified.

The only evidence we have that Jesus was not crucified is the Quran, written 600 years later, hundreds of miles away. I don't think I blame the Christians of that time or even this time for not believing us.
 
Firstly we have the four Gospels, that are at present in the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These were written within*†he first century. With Mark, the earliest, as early as 60-65 AD. Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and were written later.

The only evidence we have that Jesus was not crucified is the Quran, written 600 years later, hundreds of miles away. I don't think I blame the Christians of that time or even this time for not believing us.

The Qur'an was not 'written'. It was revealed because if there is any miracle that Prophet Muhammad came with, it is the Qur'an.

For example, how can a man who lived in a desert all of his life, who could neither read nor write, explain how a sperm drop clings onto a womb of a woman in order to create a child? This is a fact has been confirmed in the last 100 years or so.

This could only have been known to the One who created woman and knew matters of the unseen. You call Him god, we call Him Allah.
 
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In that case Grace, God created the universe in 6000 years.
Which again is , even resorting to scriptural loopholes, simply a lot of old tosh.
Well it goes on to say and a thousand years are like one day. In other words scripture itself is telling you that many of the allussions to time are themselves metaphorical, and not to be taken as articles of eithe science or for arithmetic calcuation. It's only a loophole if you insist on it meaning something that it actually isn't even trying to say. I swear you are more literal than I am, and you don't even except the Bible as true.
 
The Qur'an was not 'written'. It was revealed because if there is any miracle that Prophet Muhammad came with, it is the Qur'an.

For example, how can a man who lived in a desert all of his life, who could neither read nor write, explain how a sperm drop clings onto a womb of a woman in order to create a child? This is a fact has been confirmed in the last 100 years or so.

This could only have been known to the One who created woman and knew matters of the unseen. You call Him god, we call Him Allah.

That isn't what I am asking! Written, recorded. Put on paper.
 
Ok, ATR, forget the cross. Even Keltoi has agreed with me that all of Christian iconography is borrowed from polytheistic traditions.

I would be curious as to what post that was in, for I never read it, and it doesn't sound like the Keltoi I know, unless you are mis-reading or mis-interpreting something else that he said.

What Christianity owes to polytheistic religions is some adaptation of a few pagan festivals that were re-interpreted to bring a Christian spin to something that already existed in the culture. But to say that Christianity has its roots in pagan culture for that is about as true as saying that since the Arabs were pagans before Muhammad, and since their language was Arabic, that the Qur'an is pagan because it was written in a pagan language. I don't think you would accept that syllogism, and you shouldn't, but you are applying that very same way of thinking to Christianity. Whether speaking of Christianty or Islam, the logic is faulty that because they borrowed things from those who were pagans, or use some of the same images that pagans use that such similarities proves either to be pagan. It just doesn't follow.
 
Firstly we have the four Gospels, that are at present in the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These were written within*†he first century. With Mark, the earliest, as early as 60-65 AD. Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and were written later.

Now people toss out casually that the Injil was changed. [The Injil or Gospels, which are the mentioned Matthew, Mark, Luke and John] however you cannot simply add the crucifixion of Jesus, you cannot simply make minor changes to these Gospels. Now I can understand the idea of Jesus as the Son of God but not the cross. Each Gospel was written with the cross as the primary focus. I have read Matthew and Mark and I can see, there was no reason for them to be written at all if Jesus did not end up on the cross.

Next comes the Epistles of Paul. This is about half of the Bible. Archeologist do know some parts that were changed. They can tell this by looking at the writing style. But nothing about the cross was changed. Primarily the changed parts deal with the role of women in the church, the Pastoral Epistles, called 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus. These were written between 50-60 AD, about 10-15 or so years after Jesus was crucified.

Let me also make a note about Paul. Paul spent years of his life preaching. He was on the road. Numerous times he was beaten, thrown out of towns and eventually he was killed for preaching, as he put it in 1 Corinthians, "We preach Christ crucified" Here is a man who was actually well off, a good position in the Jewish temple who chose to preach Jesus dying on the cross, not decades later but only a few years.

Then there is Josephus, the Jewish historian, who lived between AD. 37-100 and who wrote in his works of Jesus, saying that some believed him to be the Christ, or Messiah, and that he was condemned to the cross by Pilate.

Next comes, less a document fact, but the expectations of the Jews on who the Messiah, or Christ, would be. There are things that can be quoted supporting this but I cannot recall any at the moment. We do know, however, that those Jews of that time who were expecting a Messiah to come, were expecting someone great. Someone who would conquer the enemies of Israel and raise them to great power. A crucified Messiah makes no sense to them. In fact it is said in the Old Testament, that cursed is he who hangs on a tree [is crucified] A cursed Messiah? For them to preach that a crucified Messiah makes no sense. It defies all logic of that time. In fact it was almost suicidal. No Jew would want a crucified Messiah! Most would laugh at the idea. It is the equivalent of someone stepping forward now and preaching David Koresh was the Messiah! They had no reason to preach Jesus crucified.

The only evidence we have that Jesus was not crucified is the Quran, written 600 years later, hundreds of miles away. I don't think I blame the Christians of that time or even this time for not believing us.

First of all, the Injil is NOT the Gospels. The word injil is translated frequently as "The Gospel", but that is not the same Gospel of Matthew Mark Luke and John. There may be traces of what was originally revealed to Jesus (as) contained within the current Bible, but we don't know exactly what so we can't go picking and choosing. Therefore, as Muslims, we do not support the 4 Gospels of the New Testament as being the Injil, and therefore they are not the Word of Allah SWT.

As for Paul; we know that he had a vision on the road to Damascus. This vision was unlike any other "prophetic" revelation that came before. Unlike Moses (as) and his conversations with Allah SWT and Muhammad (SAW) and his revelations from Allah SWT through the angel Jibreel, Paul was preaching a whole new message. And this is what I consider to be the most important thing about Christianity.

Whereas all prophets in the past have come to confirm the message that others had brought in the past, Paul brings a whole new message. Whereas previous prophets said God is One and eternal, having no partners or equal, Paul says that God in fact became man and died for our sins. Paul says that it is not good deeds and repentance to Allah SWT that allows one to attain paradise, it is now belief in the idea that Jesus (as) died for our sins that paves the way for our salvation. Whereas previous messengers said we are all accountable for our own actions, Paul says we have all inherited the sins of Adam (as) and thus because we have this "original sin" within us from the beginning, we need a personal savior to take the sin away. Previous messengers came bringing dietary laws and other laws ordained by God. Paul says "nope, don't need those any more". Just belief in Jesus (as) and BAM! Salvation.

I don't mean to lead into mocking, but I'm just trying to bring about a point. And that point is, if you believe in all the prophets prior to Jesus (as) and what they teach, then you'll find yourself in a predicament as everything does a complete 180 degree turn as soon as Christianity comes about. It totally negates everything that came before it. Are we to suppose that God changed His mind? Are we to assume that suddenly we had been following the wrong path all these years?

Now THAT is what I call deceptive. Paul essentially pulled the rug out from under the believers at that point and basically rewrote the rules according to this vision. People claim that Muhammad (SAW) was insane and claimed to have false visions, but you see Muhammad (SAW) came to affirm all that came before him and to bring forth new laws and commandments. Paul just totally ignores everything that comes before him and preaches a totally new path to salvation, and that leads me to believe that he suffered from false visions.
 

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