All right I think that this is the best place to put this question to muslims. I heard from one of you guys that Jesus in the Bible did sin. Now I suspect that you are probably alluding to the claim He made of Himself being God. Apart from that did he sin? Show me where in the Bible does it say that he sinned. Of course I know he makes some controversial statements but I believe he did say them for a reason.
The wrath of God as described in Paul's Letter to the Romans:
Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
If this is so, then why would Jesus pray to another in the Garden of Gethsemane that, "If He be willing, the cup be removed from him, nevertheless not my will, but Yours be done." Sounds like to me two opposing wills at work, yet Jesus submitted his personal will to that of the Father. Also, why would Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If in fact they were one and the same, Jesus could not pray to nor cry out to the Father and the Father could in no sense of the word forsake Himself.
Jesus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature. He died once for your sins He will never die again.
Jesus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature.
..and yet you also quoted the Bible, "22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God intoan image made like corruptible man—" We know that our limited human minds can not comprehend the Grandeur of the Creator, the One God - Allah (swt). To imagine that the Majesty of Allah could reside within a human body is incomprehesible to me. I can't imagine Allah being born of a woman and dying on a cross or His needing to wash, sleep, eat, drink, or to relieve Himself of waste (astighfir'Allah).
The fact that Jesus (as) prayed to the Father in the Garden and that the Father said at Jesus' baptism and his transfiguration, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased" proves beyond any doubt that the two beings, Father and son, were indeed separate entities with the son being subordinate to the Father.
As a Muslim, I bear witness that there is only One God, Allah, and that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger.
I prefer the less offensive bumper sticker, "Know Jesus, know salvation. No Jesus, no salvation" ... but I can relate to "TURN OR BURN", too.
I remember visiting my grandparents in the hills of Mississippi during the early 70's. Their house had a fireplace for heat, but no insulation in the walls or ceiling. I remember standing in front of the fireplace and being hot on one side and cold on the other. The way we kept turning reminds me of a whole chicken being cooked on a rotisserie.
I prefer the less offensive bumper sticker, "Know Jesus, know salvation. No Jesus, no salvation" ... but I can relate to "TURN OR BURN", too.
I remember visiting my grandparents in the hills of Mississippi during the early 70's. Their house had a fireplace for heat, but no insulation in the walls or ceiling. I remember standing in front of the fireplace and being hot on one side and cold on the other. The way we kept turning reminds me of a whole chicken being cooked on a rotisserie.
LOOOL the visual!!
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
like the athiest say if God created us who created God? If Jesus was begotten did he have a beginning? No. All of Jesus is in God and all of God is in Jesus. One God One Lord. Well God/Jesus/Spirit are omniscient omnipotent omnieverything I would say. Well as a human I have only so much knowledge about heaven. But when we get there we will know better.
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
J esus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature. He died once for your sins He will never die again.
IF it takes a TRIUNE of God[s] to run the universe, however did they manage when Jesus was human?
they were one short!
does that mean it only takes 2 gods to run the universe?
are you SURE, that 1 Lord God Almighty couldn't handle it?
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
Jesus was saying as a human. He died because He was human. but he was also God by nature. He died once for your sins He will never die again.
Ohhh, no, no, no, that's not correct at all. He HAS to die again in order to be spiritually resurrected. Remember there are 2 types of resurrections....physical and spiritual. Physical, is like Lazarus. Raised from the dead, required food, water, etc., to sustain life and then died, and will be spiritually resurrected. A spiritual resurrection makes you like the angels...no food or water required, no need for bones and skin, etc. AND....the spiritually resurrected person will NOT die again.
Jesus, according to the the bible was very much alive when he went into the room to meet with his apostles after His "supposed" resurrection. He told them, He was not a ghost, and encouraged them to come touch Him to feel his skin and bones, because spirits don't have skin and bones. He also made a point in asking for food to further prove He was very much alive.
So, tell me, John316, when did Jesus "die again" to become spiritually resurrected?
peace,
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell.
About seven odd pages later he calls the Pharasees "Fools".
I would imagine that he would just have to forgive himself and all would be well, but until he did repent, then temporalily he had surely sinned?
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell.
About seven odd pages later he calls the Pharasees "Fools".
I would imagine that he would just have to forgive himself and all would be well, but until he did repent, then temporalily he had surely sinned?
Or maybe the context is different? When you deal with such things from a single source wouldn't it make more sense to state that he may have meant different things.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell.
About seven odd pages later he calls the Pharasees "Fools".
I would imagine that he would just have to forgive himself and all would be well, but until he did repent, then temporalily he had surely sinned?
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,
i'm not so, sure i agree with you on this one Barney.
Jesus said that anyone who called another a "Fool" would be bound for hell
this quote is dealing with the believers and their sincerity and self perception. it would be arrogant to think of being better than others when you are only following the truth because Allah Ta' Aala guided you and showed you His Mercy.
the Pharisees had become more wrapped up in "looking pious" than actually "being pious"; Jesus/Isa ibn Marryam as the Jewish Messiah come with Injeel for them would have been within his purpose by pointing out that those who should have been stalwarts of their Deen were actually poisoning it and preventing others from adhering to Allah Ta' Aala's religion. you will find that Jesus/Isa ibn Marryam actually called them much worse!
as an interesting note, you will find that Jesus/Isa ibn Maryam's message was VERY similar to the "School of Hillel" and those Pharisees that leaned in that direction supported him, while the others were more like the "School of Shimei" in that they were more concerned with properly following "religious rites" than actually showing Mercy to others.
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
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on one side and cold
on the other. The way we kept turning reminds me of a whole chicken being cooked on a rotisserie.
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