Science has even shown genetic predisposition of homosexuality, along with hormonal influences during the prenatal stages of life which plays a significant role in determining sexuality. It also exists in nature as testified by the (documented) queer behaviour of bonobo apes, dolphins, birds, spotted hyenas, sheep and even fruit flies. Besides, only someone very delusional would think a person would ‘choose’ to break the biggest taboo that unfortunately exists by professing love for individuals of the same sex. Think about the adversity that they have to face, the disappointment of kin, the hardship of being looked down upon and vilified by both religion and society for as long as attitudes remain this intolerant.
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Do you think it would change the way you feel about the person close to you, having found out that he is gay?
Would you still care for him? Trust him? Socialise with him? Be seen in public with him?
hell yes it would, no I wouldn't care for them to a certain extent, no I would definately not choose to socialise with them and no I would not want to be seen in public with them even if it is accepted in that society
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
I know of no evidence for the claims that homosexuality should be punished with execution. Could people who make claims like this please support their claims with Ayaath or hadeeth?
Bro have you read in the Quran about the People of Sodom and Prophet Saleh?
They basically carried on their inhumane acts even after the prophet Saleh(peace be upon him) offered his daughters to them, they carried on, they were sent a warning, then They were all destroyed
And Someone provide him with some evidence
Last edited by aadil77; 04-16-2008 at 08:55 PM.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
The 82nd verse of Surah Hud clearly stated the kind of disaster that befell the people of lut. “When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer”
The statement of “turning (the cities) upside down” implies that the region was totally destroyed by a violent earthquake.
Accordingly, The Lake of Lut, where the destruction took place, bears “obvious” evidence of such a disaster.
For all those people who oppose homosexuality on moral basis, I ask you, what is so bad about homosexuality? I think it is hard for us to accept homosexuality, only because we have been socialized in such a way from the beginning , where gender roles were defined for us and anything that moved away from such defined roles are seen as a “threat” and “deviant”.
Seriously, keeping religious scriptures aside, what is so ” natural” about marriage? What is so ” natural” about intercourse between heterosexuals? What is so ” natural” about girls playing with dolls and wearing make up, and boys being brave and not crying?
I think the answer to your question lies in the natural disposition that God has created mankind upon. This is what makes things seem "natural" and others not. And we can clearly see the differences in men and women, hence their different roles in society. These have not been defined by people's choice, but rather by how they have been created.
So our view towards homosexuality is not derived from how we have been socialised, rather it is the sense of morality that God has instilled in human beings. In the same way that we perceive murder as wrong, so is homosexuality. Even a homosexual himself can see the deviation in his desire from that which is natural. Hence we can understand where the test comes into it - a person's sense of right and wrong must control their actions, not their desire for sinful acts.
Also - For previous discussions on homosexuality, where many of the points discussed in this thread have already been addressed before, please see: http://www.islamicboard.com/547956-post9.html
I think the answer to your question lies in the natural disposition that God has created mankind upon. This is what makes things seem "natural" and others not. And we can clearly see the differences in men and women, hence their different roles in society. These have not been defined by people's choice, but rather by how they have been created.
So our view towards homosexuality is not derived from how we have been socialised, rather it is the sense of morality that God has instilled in human beings. In the same way that we perceive murder as wrong, so is homosexuality. Even a homosexual himself can see the deviation in his desire from that which is natural. Hence we can understand where the test comes into it - a person's sense of right and wrong must control their actions, not their desire for sinful acts.
.
i got to strongly disagree with this.
Natural is a horrible argument since homosexuality naturally occurs all in nature. Also Nature doesnt mean good as unnatural doesnt mean bad. The computer you have is unnatural. The mercury in the thermometer is natural.
I doubt you think your PC is bad and i doubt youd chug a cup of mercury.
Your views toward sexuality are derived from society. As for sense of morality, if god did instill one in humans then he instilled a variety of morals since these morals vary from society to society (almost as if society has something to do with morals)
I would just like to point out, if anyone has missed if the point, execution is for sodomy only, the sexual act, not for feelings a person may have.
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution???
Firstly, there is no execution for being gay, only for practising sodomy.
Secondly, if the person was found guilty by a fair process in court, why should they be pardoned just because they are related to me?
Would you call for your son or daughter to be let free, for example, from a life sentence because they murdered ten people just because they are your children?
Of course we will all feel sad for our relatives if they end up in such a predicament, what ever the crime, but that should not let us interfere with the process of justice.
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Bro have you read in the Quran about the People of Sodom and Prophet Saleh?
They basically carried on their inhumane acts even after the prophet Saleh(peace be upon him) offered his daughters to them, they carried on, they were sent a warning, then They were all destroyed
And Someone provide him with some evidence
It was actually Prophet Lut, and they were not punished for being homosexual, they were punished for practising their lust n other men.
In other words, a person can be gay but never ever do any sexual act with another man, and therefore he is not sinful. It isn't the attraction that is punishable, only the action.
I understand homosexual acts are a sin and if anyone wants to be a good muslim they are free to abstain from it. On the other hand, if they don't want to be a good muslim or believe homosexuality is ok in Islam, they should be allowed to have sex with whomever they will.[/QUOTE]
well when u become a muslim or any person... obviously u cant pick n choose wat u want .... u cant make things halal when they anit .. so if u believe that these r rite might as well .. dont call ur self a muslim... a real muslim do not believe its ok to be gay.. peace
well i personally dont think the punishment fits the crime.
if it matters that much to god let him deal the punishment out.
Would you think it fair if littering or reading a book was punishable by death?
well in quran allah have told us how to deal with problems like that... so since god choose that pinishment then yes it should be done .. n no one cant stand against it.... plain n simple
Christodelpian's beleive that "God should sort em all out".
They also beleive in scrapping the police and army for that reason.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
if its that important to god let him do his own dirty work.
i mean you die and sent to hell if you screwed up, killing them early pretty much gets rid of any chance of them improving themselves.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
I would just like to point out, if anyone has missed if the point, execution is for sodomy only, the sexual act, not for feelings a person may have.
Originally Posted by glo If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution???
Firstly, there is no execution for being gay, only for practising sodomy.
Please note that I wrote actively gay ... by that I mean being actively engaged in homosexual practices.
Secondly, if the person was found guilty by a fair process in court, why should they be pardoned just because they are related to me?
Would you call for your son or daughter to be let free, for example, from a life sentence because they murdered ten people just because they are your children?
Of course we will all feel sad for our relatives if they end up in such a predicament, what ever the crime, but that should not let us interfere with the process of justice.
So would your personal response to my question above be Yes?
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I know of no evidence for the claims that homosexuality should be punished with execution. Could people who make claims like this please support their claims with Ayaath or hadeeth?
My apologies, should have included it in my post.
al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
This is a question for everybody, and not just for you, crayon:
If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution???
I would not call for his execution in the sense that I'd go around yelling "HE'S GAY HE'S GAY, KILLLLLLLL HIM!!!", but if he was discovered and sentenced to execution, I would not object. He knows it's a sin, yet he committed it anyway. Sure it would suck, this is a father/brother/husband we're talking about, but justice doesn't just change when the person is related to you. And as aadil said, if I did find out, I would try to persuade them to stop, of course.
It's plain enough that that homosexuality can result as a process of nature or nurture. Distinct patterns can be seen, both in terms of the inheritance of male homosexuality through the female line, and in terms of the birth order of boys. This doesn't explain everything, of course.
So homosexuality can be clearly seen to be natural, in the sense of "occurring in nature", which is so easily conflated with its other meaning of "usual".
You may say that it's a sin, but the idea of sin doesn't truly reflect a state of morality, except in the special sense of a relationship with God. If a homosexual act harms no-one, then how can it be condemned as immoral?
1) genetically predispositioned
2) those who engage in homosexual acts out of lust.
I heard the first is a result of chromosome abnormalities (sumthin like that)
And the second when men only use men to satisfy sexual desire when no woman is available. It may sound rediculous but I know of cases in Pak. The men were OK after they got married. :X
Last edited by Snowflake; 04-17-2008 at 01:10 PM.
Reason: :P
i got to strongly disagree with this.
Natural is a horrible argument since homosexuality naturally occurs all in nature.
Whether it occurs naturally is debatable, but nevertheless, even if we say for argument's sake that it is natural, then as you said yourself, it doesn't mean that is is necessarily good. Hence I said that even a homosexual himself can see that his actions are morally wrong, regardless of whether he was born with such inclinations or not.
Also Nature doesnt mean good as unnatural doesnt mean bad. The computer you have is unnatural. The mercury in the thermometer is natural.
I doubt you think your PC is bad and i doubt youd chug a cup of mercury.
Here you agree with my point above. The human soul is inclined to much evil, and this is why the greatest struggle is the struggle against one's own self.
Your views toward sexuality are derived from society.
If they were, I would be in favour of approving of homosexuality, because that is what the society around me is doing. However, my views towards homosexuality are based upon the Law that God prescribed for His servants, and this Law is in accordance with the natural disposition upon which He created mankind.
As for sense of morality, if god did instill one in humans then he instilled a variety of morals since these morals vary from society to society (almost as if society has something to do with morals)
Well if we consider the basic sense of right and wrong, I believe that is universal to all. Murder is wrong regardless of which society you live in.
if its that important to god let him do his own dirty work.
This demonstrates a lack of understanding of the concept of God and His creation. A key point to bear in mind is that God has set out a clear law that must be implemented among His creation, such as the punishments for adultery and theft.
Furthermore, God gave us the responsibility to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Among the teachings in Islam is that when we see something wrong, we should try to change it as much as we are able. We are ordered to stand up for justice. We must help one another in goodness and avoiding evil.
i mean you die and sent to hell if you screwed up, killing them early pretty much gets rid of any chance of them improving themselves.
Not so. The following should clarify:
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, with a group of his Sahaabah standing around him: “Come and give me your oath of allegiance, promising that you will not associate anything in worship with Allaah, or steal, or commit zinaa (illegal sexual activity), or kill your children, or utter slander intentionally forging falsehood (by wrongfully attributing illegitimate children to husbands) [cf 60:12], or disobey me with regard to anything good (ma’roof). Whoever among you fulfils this oath, his reward will be due from Allaah, and whoever commits any of these sins and is punished for it in this world, this will be an expiation for him. Whoever commits any of these sins and Allaah conceals it for him, then his case rests with Allaah – if He wills, He will punish him and if He wills, He will forgive him.” So they gave their oath of allegiance to him on that basis.
Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath (1/6): “What we learn from this hadeeth is that the carrying out of the punishment is an expiation for the sin, even if the one on whom the hadd is carried out does not repent. This is the view of the majority. It was also said that he has to repent – this was stated by some of the Taabi’een.”
The previous hadeeth was also narrated by al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan. After quoting it, he said:
“Al-Shaafa’i said concerning this topic: I have not heard any better indication than this hadeeth to show that the hudood (punishments) are an expiation for the people on whom they are carried out. Al-Shaafa’i said: if a person commits a sin and Allaah conceals it for him, I prefer for him to keep it concealed and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah. Something similar was narrated from Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, that they commanded a man to conceal his sin.” (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 1439). So there is no need for the person who commits a punishable sin to go to the Qaadi (judge) and confess and ask for the hadd to be carried out on him; rather, he is encouraged to keep it to himself and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah, may He be glorified, and to do lots of righteous deeds, for good deeds cancel out bad deeds, and the one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin at all.
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