Science has even shown genetic predisposition of homosexuality, along with hormonal influences during the prenatal stages of life which plays a significant role in determining sexuality. It also exists in nature as testified by the (documented) queer behaviour of bonobo apes, dolphins, birds, spotted hyenas, sheep and even fruit flies. Besides, only someone very delusional would think a person would ‘choose’ to break the biggest taboo that unfortunately exists by professing love for individuals of the same sex. Think about the adversity that they have to face, the disappointment of kin, the hardship of being looked down upon and vilified by both religion and society for as long as attitudes remain this intolerant.
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Last edited by Woodrow; 04-15-2008 at 01:59 AM.
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Regarding the idea that homosexuality is natural, simply because some animals do it.
Let's read about what other animals do when having sex:
VORACIOUS female spiders just cannot help trying to eat suitors before sex.
Why? It's their aggressive personalities.
Females of several spider and mantis species dine on their partners, but only after acquiring the sperm necessary to fertilise their eggs. By providing his mate with a good meal, the male increases his own reproductive success. But that doesn't explain the behaviour of females that opt for dinner instead of sex, as fishing spiders (Dolomedes triton) often do. "Eating your mate during or after copulating, that's no big deal. Eating your mate beforehand, that's weird," says Chadwick Johnson at the University of Toronto, Canada.
So please, just because some animals do some things i.e. having sex with the same gender, or even eating their partner - it doesn't mean humans have to follow their example.
al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
But the people of Loot committed many crimes. Sodomy is one of them, but also adultery, incest, rape, orgies and so on. We already know there a punishment on adultery, so this hadeeth is insufficient to make a ruling on the punishment to sodomy.
Regarding the idea that homosexuality is natural, simply because some animals do it.
.....[/INDENT]So please, just because some animals do some things i.e. having sex with the same gender, or even eating their partner - it doesn't mean humans have to follow their example.
Thankyou.
as stated earlier the argument that its natural or not fails. Natural does not mean good (mercury) and unatural does not mean bad (internet).
And it is homosexuality is natural.
So now that the natural argument is dead what is the problem with homosexuality between two consenting adults?
But the people of Loot committed many crimes. Sodomy is one of them, but also adultery, incest, rape, orgies and so on. We already know there a punishment on adultery, so this hadeeth is insufficient to make a ruling on the punishment to sodomy.
There is no genetic basis for pedophilia, murder, rape, incest, bestiality or necrophilia. Not that I am aware of anyway. Such perversions are caused almost always by social and psychological conditions. Rape is a social stigma too, I agree, unfortunately your argument’s coherence to the subject matter ends here (yet again). The prelude to the homosexuality I write in defense of is consensual. To which I have provided enough scientific evidence - if you can refer back to the discussion... that it is indeed genetic
Do you think it's perfectly okay for a father and daughter to have sex? If the daughter is mature enough for it and consents [they don't have kids]?
quite frankly assuming that the father has had no unfair influence that is between those two adults. ( i personaly find it distastful but if they are both mentally fit and aware fo what they are doing then let them be.)
To me, a more interesting question than whether homosexuality is right or wrong, is how we approach homosexuals in our daily lives.
Biblically speaking, I agree that homosexuality is wrong. I understand the arguments of Christians who disagree with this, but personally speaking I think the Bible is quite clear on the issue ...
But that aside, speaking as a heterosexual woman, I cannot even begin to grasp the suffering homosexuals must go through - even in the 21st century.
The ridicule, the discrimination, the exclusion, the false beliefs about their sexuality ... and in some parts of the world the consequences are much worse!
Nerd put it well in his OP:
Gays and lesbians share the same humanity as we do!
Do they not deserve the same rights? And respect as human beings?
Peace
I think they deserve respect. I don't really care one way or another who someone decides to sleep with. Not my business. What is my business however are my children. At 7 years old, I don't want my son seeing two men kissing on what is supposed to be a children's video. Which by the way happened a few weeks ago. I just wish that respect would be given to the parents raising kids that don't want them exposed to it.
"The only thing neccesary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - E. Burke
"We have just enough religion to hate but not enough to love one another" -Jonathan Swift
anyway, even if it is genetic - Allah trials people in different ways. I.e. a guy really loves a girl but she's married to someone else, will he obey his desires, or his Lord.
Just to end, i want to state to ranma that if sex with consent is allowed, then why is it forbidden in many countries, including UK and in many states of the US to get married to brothers/sisters, mothers/fathers etc?
This is a nation which boasts about its democracy and excessive freedom. Yet they even forbid it. Why is this? Maybe because the masses disagree?
So sure, argue all you want. But the argument isn't going to get any further if you just express opinions or compare us to animals. Like you usually argue, its about facts.
Last edited by - Qatada -; 04-17-2008 at 03:10 PM.
^ Why should we let them be?! Its disgusting and it should be stopped!!
Because dear sister, it is not our place to judge. You are entitled to your own beliefs but not to tell others what theirs should be. That is a power that isn't your, or anyone else's, to take.
"The only thing neccesary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - E. Burke
"We have just enough religion to hate but not enough to love one another" -Jonathan Swift
^ Why should we let them be?! Its disgusting and it should be stopped!!
I think we call them against it, but we cannot harm them. Like Prophet Lut was patient, and Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgement.
In an Islamic state, it's not allowed and is punishable by the judge since evil cannot become widespread in society (same way adultery/fornication can't either) - since it brings greater evil, we know that already. And Allah knows best.
Last edited by - Qatada -; 04-17-2008 at 03:21 PM.
But the people of Loot committed many crimes. Sodomy is one of them, but also adultery, incest, rape, orgies and so on. We already know there a punishment on adultery, so this hadeeth is insufficient to make a ruling on the punishment to sodomy.
Fair enough.
I found another article that says there is a difference in opinion on this matter.. (pasted bits and pieces here)
"Homosexuality, moreover, is an abomination and a grave sin. In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: “Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut” repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: “If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.” Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand.
However, death fall is not the sole penalty agreed upon by the Muslim Jurists as a punishment for this crime. The punishment here is controversial due to divergence of views among `Ulama in deducting ruling as regards this case from Shari`ah sources.
Focusing more on the question in point, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh `Abdel Khaliq Hasan Ash-Shareef, states:
“As to the issue of how the homosexual person is judged in an Islamic State, the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him differed among themselves on this issue, and this led to different views maintained by Muslim Jurists. For example, in the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death. ”
Shedding more light on the legal penalty for homosexuality, Dr. Taha Jaber Al-`Alwani, President of the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences and President of the Fiqh Council, states:
Actually, humans are not animals controlled by their sexual instincts, answering the call of sexual desires every time it is aroused in them. Rather, it is their responsibility to know how they can orient this craving, which is a trust Allah has implemented in them, both male and female, in addition to the will and power to choose, a blessing Allah has bestowed on humans; all this is what distinguishes them from the rest of the creatures in that they orient their conduct and do what is good.
In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: “Allah curses the one who does the actions of the people of Lut” repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: “If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.” Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand. It has also been narrated from the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) that this crime deserves severe punishment more than that of adultery to insure its deterrence and restraint. Verily, the punishment here is the burning of both homosexuals (the actor and acted upon) or stoning them with rocks till death because Allah Most High stoned the people of Lut after demolishing their village.
As for lesbians, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said about them: "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses”. The scholars mentioned that it is incumbent on the authority to enact a reprimand on lesbians that is fitting to the crime committed.
It is true that some of the scholars disagreed with these punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine textual stipulation for a worldly punishment (you were right brother, not enough evidence to make a specific hadd). But the actions of the Prophet’s Companions do indicate that in fact this crime has a worldly punishment, to be carried out by those in authority among the Muslims. The story of Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq when Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed wrote to him on this matter is famous and can be referenced in many sources.
[The story referred to above goes as follows:
"In his book Fat-h al-Qadir, the famous Hanafi scholar, Ibn al-Humam states:
“Al-Bayhaqi reported in his book Shu`ab al-Iman on the authority of Abu ad-Dunya that Abd al-`Aziz ibn Abi Hazim related from Dawud ibn Bakr who related from Muhammad ibn al-Mukadir the following:
“Khalid Ibn al-Walid wrote to Abu Bakr [seeking the legal ruling] concerning a man with whom another man had sexual intercourse. Thereupon, Abu Bakr gathered the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and sought their opinion. `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was the strictest of all, saying, 'Only one nation disobeyed Allah by committing such sin and you know how Allah dealt with them. I see that we should burn the man with fire.’ The Companions unanimously agreed on this.” This incident is also mentioned by al-Waqidi under the subject of apostasy at the end of the section on the apostasy of Bani Salim.]”
source islamonline
i cut out bits and pieces that weren't relevant to this discussion.
hmmm.. I was reading another article and it states "In our fiqh literature, it (homosexuality) is referred to as the 'Behavior of the People of Lut' or `amal qawm Lut."
So if that indeed is the fiqh definition of the behavior of qawm lut, then the hadith does stand.
I think it is clear that in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, homosexual acts are considered an abomination. We can all agree on that much I'm sure.
However, I don't think God gives us any authority to inflict harm on these people in any way whatsoever. Speaking as a Christian of course. Give them warnings, show them mercy, and the rest is up to God.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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