Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."
Is 60 cubits a metaphor? Allah has repeatedly revealed that some things in heaven are very large. I view these as metaphors to explain their grandness. We are Allah's greatest creations, higher than the jinn, animals or angels and thus when we are describes as gians, Allah is metaphorically asserting our superiority. Also when it is mentioned that the subsequent generations of humans would be smaller is stature, could it be interpreted that we are not as pious or as great as the sahaba and are smaller in stature. Allah did say that we would grow corrupt near the end of times and this decrease in stature might pertain toa spiritual decrease.
Is this interpretation right? Or the literal one which is expounded on by this scientific article?
TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - At the recent Israeli colloquium on science and religion, Dr. Shlomi Lesser of Hebrew University, and the Chairman of the Hofesh V'Mada Society (a stalwart for deeply skeptical Israeli scientists), led a heated debate between biologists and ultra-orthodox Rabbis on the origins of life. Many of the spectators, including those of a deeply religious stance, came away with the feeling that the Rabbis had not done very well against their "Epicurean" counterparts.
The hi-light of the evening came when Dr. Lesser engaged in a one-on-one question exchange with Rabbi Dovid Brown of Yeshiva University. At one point Dr. Lesser asked R. Brown how tall the first man was, to which the esteemed Rabbi replied "he was roughly the size of an average man according to chazal [Jewish sages]." From there Dr. Lesser revealed that genetic research has revealed that the human race coming from a single pair of parents is impossible in light of the biological bottle-neck [a term for the strain put on successive generations by inbreeding] they would have to travel through.
"Our research, in conjunction with the research of other respected institutions around the world, has demonstrated that the entire human population descending from a single pair of human ancestors is highly unlikely." stated Dr. Lesser. "It would seem that the traditional view of groups, not individuals, evolving has been corroborated; the only way man could descend from a single pair (rather than from an entire group of transitional hominids) is if the original pair were literally giants in the pre-nutrition age."
As Dr. Lesser pointed out, prior to the breakthroughs in nutrition that took place in the 17th and 18th centuries, genetic evidence revealed that man would have been shrinking if he came from a single human ancestor. His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."
What do YOU guys think?
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 04-30-2008 at 02:01 AM.
IF you read the hadiths carefully, they ONLY refer to the size in heaven. No where in there do they say that his earthly body as so big. Hence my guess that it is a metaphor or something. In another hadith the Prophet( pbuh) said that there was this tree in heaven so big that would take days for the rider of a horse to even pass.
Other hadiths describe some things in heaven being really big. Following what Qatada said about making sure that the phrase is already used before considering it a metaphor, I think that these instances of giantness serve to communicate the grandeur of humans and their rewards in heaven.
IF you read the hadiths carefully, they ONLY refer to the size in heaven. No where in there do they say that his earthly body as so big. Hence my guess that it is a metaphor or something. In another hadith the Prophet( pbuh) said that there was this tree in heaven so big that would take days for the rider of a horse to even pass.
Other hadiths describe some things in heaven being really big. Following what Qatada said about making sure that the phrase is already used before considering it a metaphor, I think that these instances of giantness serve to communicate the grandeur of humans and their rewards in heaven.
Adam a.s. was created 60 cubits, he didn't shrink to a tiny man when he fell on earth. There is no "metaphor" in here bro. Read bottleneck theory, it states when a species inbreed then over time it will shrink in size.
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I thought Paradise was the Eden area? Within a stones throw of the Euphrates or similar? Or is that just in the bible?
I was out the back garden the other night Imagining just how big a 90 foot guy would be, its pretty impressive.
His Fists would be the size of my car, his head the size of a fully grown elephant, his teeth like keyboards...ROCK!
Then I was imagining the world he lived in. Trees like skyscrapers, Cats the size of killer whales. its amazing that 6000 years ago the earth must have been awesome!
Barney, you ever played Supermario 3? remember the levels in "giant land".
I don't see why you are so surprised about this fact. Look at mother nature, it gives enough proof of what was in the past to know better. We are afraid of dinosaurs and how big they were compared to us, well to early humans they could very much have been their domestic animals.
Take a look at this giant trees, we are insects compared to these but they fit quite well in a world where humans are 90 feet tall.
We know the issue is a matter of belief anyways, so even if it isn't proven - we accept it like everything else.
And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. [Qur'an 3:7]
Is it even possible for a humanlike being to be that tall and heavy? Can a human body increased in size to such an extent work properly, stand straight etc? Insects bigger than a couple of inches wouldn't be able to support the weight of their body for instance.
It would be possible, but indeed the cows and trees and evrything would need to be the same or similar pro-rata. Otherwise a daily intake would be a whole herd of cows or goats, and its not sustainable.
If Adam was only 90ft in heaven and shrank down when he hit earth, despite the original book saying it was on earth, then theres no problem. Other than what the jimminy is the point of all that? Big guy shrinking down along with everything else and leaving no evidence behind at all.
Its a high hoop, but it's jumpable.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
It would be possible, but indeed the cows and trees and evrything would need to be the same or similar pro-rata. Otherwise a daily intake would be a whole herd of cows or goats, and its not sustainable.
Exactly, including insects, which is impossible due to their body construction.
I don't know, I'm not sure a human body that size could function properly, the human body is adapted to a height up to 2/2,5 metres. Unless Adam was significantly different than the modern day human, I don't think he was able to live normally and survive. Imagine a brain 10 times bigger than ours; if nothing else it would function more slowly. Or the kidneys..
Not to mention the environmental challenges a body that size would have to face. for instance, if Adam had raised his ahnd, it would have taken over 2 seconds to return to its original position, taking into account that gravity was teh same back then.
I'm assuming this shrinkage over time has been reserched and "confirmed" by Scholars.
I cant find any references.
It's looking like Adam as a ninety footer is logically and scientificaly unstainable.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
I'm assuming this shrinkage over time has been reserched and "confirmed" by Scholars.
I cant find any references.
It's looking like Adam as a ninety footer is logically and scientificaly unstainable.
What is science but human's own theories? theories that become bit more proven become facts while other's are nothing but "guesses". Do you know that the theory of evoultion has not been proven and yet it is thought as a "fact" in the education system?
Anyways, don't rely on the science a bit too much, they have been wrong and had to go back and fix their "facts" before. Science is only as good as the knowledge humans have today.
Islam on other hand has stood test of time for 1400yrs. Even though it is a religion, it is still more credible and years ahead of science.
Anyways, it may seem unstainable currently and that maybe true but we are talking about ages ago. "logically speaking" dinosaurs and other giant animals would be also unstainable due to their large size. But then again it's unstaniability is a human's guess based on the little science advancement he has made. Give it another 50yrs and scientist will star saying something.
As for shrinkage being research. I did come across an article few years back. Try googling bottleneck effect, humans, science and jews.
As for shrinkage being research. I did come across an article few years back. Try googling bottleneck effect, humans, science and jews.
You mean this
TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - At the recent Israeli colloquium on science and religion, Dr. Shlomi Lesser of Hebrew University, and the Chairman of the Hofesh V'Mada Society (a stalwart for deeply skeptical Israeli scientists), led a heated debate between biologists and ultra-orthodox Rabbis on the origins of life. Many of the spectators, including those of a deeply religious stance, came away with the feeling that the Rabbis had not done very well against their "Epicurean" counterparts.
The hi-light of the evening came when Dr. Lesser engaged in a one-on-one question exchange with Rabbi Dovid Brown of Yeshiva University. At one point Dr. Lesser asked R. Brown how tall the first man was, to which the esteemed Rabbi replied "he was roughly the size of an average man according to chazal [Jewish sages]." From there Dr. Lesser revealed that genetic research has revealed that the human race coming from a single pair of parents is impossible in light of the biological bottle-neck [a term for the strain put on successive generations by inbreeding] they would have to travel through.
"Our research, in conjunction with the research of other respected institutions around the world, has demonstrated that the entire human population descending from a single pair of human ancestors is highly unlikely." stated Dr. Lesser. "It would seem that the traditional view of groups, not individuals, evolving has been corroborated; the only way man could descend from a single pair (rather than from an entire group of transitional hominids) is if the original pair were literally giants in the pre-nutrition age."
As Dr. Lesser pointed out, prior to the breakthroughs in nutrition that took place in the 17th and 18th centuries, genetic evidence revealed that man would have been shrinking if he came from a single human ancestor. His calculations revealed that in order for the human race to reach the state it was in during the 17th century, the "Adam and Eve" story would only be plausible if the first man was 90 feet tall (which is fantastic to say the least). "There is no other way man could traverse the genetic bottleneck" Dr. Lesser again said. "If Adam was the size of any other man according to the learned Rabbis of the Jewish religion, this demonstrates an obvious absurdity to this myth."
yea that one. i think islam or muslims had nothing to do with that get together. So, how is it an "islamic science" hoax? any evidence on that? 2ndly, what's the source of that article?
yea that one. i think islam or muslims had nothing to do with that get together. So, how is it an "islamic science" hoax? any evidence on that? 2ndly, what's the source of that article?
Well, it can only be traced to islamic sites. Besides there's no information about Hofesh V'Mada and Shlomi Lesser to be found on the net, apart from the article.
the article does not elaborate on the calculation Dr Lesser supposedly made, I can't think of any way how anyone could calculate the height of a man to such precision without knowing where, when, how etc he lived. He didn't use scintific data, as there's no evidence of there being a single first man, nor the place and time he lived. And he can't have used jewish data about Adam living 6000 years ago. If he did use it, his findings are false, as it is a well known fact that there were much smaller humans around more than 6000 ago.
Well, it can only be traced to islamic sites. Besides there's no information about Hofesh V'Mada and Shlomi Lesser to be found on the net, apart from the article.
the article does not elaborate on the calculation Dr Lesser supposedly made, I can't think of any way how anyone could calculate the height of a man to such precision without knowing where, when, how etc he lived. He didn't use scintific data, as there's no evidence of there being a single first man, nor the place and time he lived. And he can't have used jewish data about Adam living 6000 years ago. If he did use it, his findings are false, as it is a well known fact that there were much smaller humans around more than 6000 ago.
Like i said, do you have the sources? I'm not sure if i found it on islamic or secular site few years back. In either case, you'll have to excuse me if i believe my Quran than some human scientist with miserly studying of 10yrs to tell me that we came from monkeys. He can be a monkey's uncle all he wants.
Like i said, do you have the sources? I'm not sure if i found it on islamic or secular site few years back. In either case, you'll have to excuse me if i believe my Quran than some human scientist with miserly studying of 10yrs to tell me that we came from monkeys. He can be a monkey's uncle all he wants.
I'm not saying you can't believe what you believe, I'm just saying I'm not buying it.
btw: what sources exactly do you expect me to find? It's you who claims the article and the scientists are genuine and you're supposed to prove it. All I can say is that today the article can be found on islamic sites and sites refuting islamic sites.
Last edited by Whatsthepoint; 05-05-2008 at 04:38 PM.
I'm not saying you can't believe what you believe, I'm just saying I'm not buying it.
btw: what sources exactly do you expect me to find? It's you who claims the article and the scientists are genuine and you're supposed to prove it. All I can say is that today the article can be found on islamic sites and sites refuting islamic sites.
I just said that i found such an article on the topic few years back. Anyways, what i believe is what i believe and same goes for you. My belief has stood test of time for 1400yrs and so it helps me to know the facts where as you will have just wait till the scientists get smart enough to shed some light on this (if they ever stop being monkey's uncle )
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
)
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks