Alleged Affirmations of Scientifically Accurate Verses

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

The hadith says a 40 days old embryo has a sense ot hearing and sight. It also says it's got skin, flesh and bones, all of which was created at the same day. It also suggest nothing happens to the semen the first 40 days of pregancy.
The second hadith is vague, though it does suggest that changes occur only ever 40 days, as well as that nothing happens to sperm for fourty days. Verse 23:14 (Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood...) suggest that the the clot is created directly from sperm. Seeing taht the clot is created on day 40, nothing happens to the sperm before that.

I am sorry, but what you are stating has no intelligible meaning whatsoever, if by chinese whispers it would have held some of its original integrity better than this!
I have covered the Quranic verses previously and ad nauseam in fact I believe there is a whole thread dedicated to it, whatever conclusions you've reached are your own rendering to exegesis and have no basis in the hadiths or the Quran.
For some reason you feel, that by subtracting a word here and adding a word there, you'll have reached some sort of divine manifestation, but in fact what you are doing is fabricating age old text to intellectualize why it is you believe what you do, or don't believe in the things that you do!


be that as it may, all you need to do otherwise is ask a scholar as I have referenced you to several links previousely, or do a simple google search from a reputable site!

http://muslim-canada.org/printletter24.html

Question
I recently saw the following quote on another website. I am quite confused as to it's meaning so can you explain it to me:

“Early Muslim jurists considered abortion lawful for a variety of reasons until 40 -120 days after conception (first trimester). This was based on interpretation of Qur'an (22:4 and 23:12-14) and hadith that implied that ensoulment or "life" did not exist until after that time. Contemporary thinkers, considering available technology that allows visualization of the embryonic heartbeat at four weeks of gestation, are of the position that life begins much earlier than previously thought, and therefore to terminate would be to take a life illegally.”
* * *

Answer
This quote seems to make the sweeping assertion that the opinion of "contemporary thinkers" is accurate without indicating, among other considerations, how many or who these "contemporary thinkers" are. One must be very careful when consulting these self-styled "contemporary thinkers" because more often than not, they are clearly not qualified and lack the adequate understanding to be able to make pronouncements of this kind. [Click here for information on Ijtihad (interpretation through the legal process of deductive analogy) etc. of a mujtahid (interpreter of law) and a discussion of the problems associated with this type of situation. For example, some so-called "contemporary thinkers" patently decide that they are 'experts' because they have a little bit of information. They delude themselves into thinking that 'information' is 'knowledge.' Thus in this way, not only have they deceived themselves, but they also deceive others with their incompetent advice, which can be seen in the above quote.]

With regards to this quote, which you find confusing, it would seem to me that this opinion is obviously the result of confused thinking on both the part of the writer and also the “contemporary thinkers” referred to. These "contemporary thinkers" (unlike the early jurists) don’t seem to understand or appreciate the very basic fact that ensoulment or “life” is a spiritual phenomenon – a miracle, if you like – rather than a physical occurrence or a mere physiological accident.

Therefore, I would suggest that these “contemporary thinkers' ” viewpoint is not correct because the embryonic heartbeat is something completely different from "ensoulment or life" which was envisaged by the early Muslim Jurists. The crucial point, or the heart of the matter, is that the physical organ known as the ‘heart’ (which is a muscle composed of flesh which performs the function of pumping the blood etc.) is not the same as the "spiritual" heart. This "spiritual" heart is the seat of life where ensoulment takes place. It is actually a celestial entity and, as such, is invisible to the human eye, whereas the physical heart is quite visible. The scholars of the esoteric sciences, such as Sufis, who acquire a deep insight into understanding the 'inner' dimensions of human life, and such other people who are adept in matters that are of a spiritual nature, (e.g.. Shaikh Ahmed Sirhindi, alaf-sani, r.a., a well-known Naqshbandi saint) actually describe the location of the spiritual heart to be at a distance of the width of two fingers below and a little to the left of the cone of the heart.


The following Quranic quote and Hadith will further explain in detail the development of the fourth stage (ensoulment):
[Qur'an 23:14 Translated by Yusuf Ali] :
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (fetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

The well-known scholar, Yusuf Ali, in his translation of the above Quranic verse added this footnote of explanation:
Note 2873
The growth in the fetal stage is silent and unseen. This fetus is protected in the mother's womb like a king in a castle . . ."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 549:
Narrated Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(as regards your creation), every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for another forty days, and then a piece of flesh for another forty days. Then Allah sends an angel to write four words: He writes his deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into his body. So a man may do deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses, and so he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise and enters Paradise. Similarly, a person may do deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses, and he starts doing deeds of the people of the (Hell) Fire and enters the (Hell) Fire."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8 book 77, number 593:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his deeds, his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arms-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4 Book 54, Number 430:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud:

Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise."


The Hanafi scholars (whose adherents consist of the overwhelming majority [i.e., over 80%] of orthodox Muslims) permit abortion until the end of the four months (120 days).

Quite a few of the Maliki jurists describe abortion as completely forbidden. In their view, it seems that although life does not begin at conception (i.e., when semen settles in the womb) it is expected to develop into a living baby and so it should not be disturbed by anyone. According to Ibn Jawziyyah, when the womb has retained the semen, it is not permitted for either the husband or wife, or one of them to induce an abortion. After ensoulment, however, abortion is prohibited absolutely and is akin to murder.

Many Shafi'i and Hanbali scholars agree with the Hanafis in their tolerance of the practice, although some put an upper limit of forty days for a legal abortion, whereas others gave eighty days or even 120 days.

Therefore, if you are a Hanafi, you must follow the Hanafi school of law and if you are Shafi'i, Hanbali or Maliki, then you must follow your own particular school of law in this regard. To learn more about the reasoning as to why Muslims should follow a Madhab (i.e., a particular school of law), here are five articles: One | Two | Three | Four | Five

cheers.

You say there are more scientists who don't agree. If you accept that as an argumetn, then you should accept the argumetn that there are more people who believe in God then those who don't.

The information Prof. Moore validated had been known for centuries before the 'revelation', and I would bet our learned friend knew this and was quite happy to take money from the Arabs for telling them what they wanted to hear.

Then please let us know which things were know before the revelation, and please let us know which of them were known to the Arabs of that ime.

Also, as an atheist you don't have a reason to be moral, so your accusation and ad hominem do not wonder me.

By the way, a vast of the greatest scientists in the history believed in God: Newton, Descartes, Faraday, Boyle, Mendel, Pasteur, Pascal, Linnaeus etc.

I do not say that only because there existed some great scientists who believed in God we have a proof of His SWT existence. But, you used pretty the same methodology.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed

You say there are more scientists who don't agree. If you accept that as an argumetn, then you should accept the argumetn that there are more people who believe in God then those who don't.

Well that was my point, it's a flawed argument to say that because this important person or this many people say something is true then it must be true.
I suppose if you like that sort of thing then you'd agree with me that Islam is not true since 80% of people think it is false.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed

Then please let us know which things were know before the revelation, and please let us know which of them were known to the Arabs of that ime.

There have been many threads about this already, search for 'Galen'. (edit: It's even in this thread! Forgot about that)

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed

Also, as an atheist you don't have a reason to be moral, so your accusation and ad hominem do not wonder me.

I think perhaps you should be worried for yourself if you believe one cannot be moral without religion. You believe that you could not live a moral life if you were not guided by the Quran, but I know that I can. I live a reasonably good, moral life while surrounded by muslims who would go to prison if anyone found out what they were doing.

"I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." - Aristotle

format_quote Originally Posted by kay106

by us not knowing whethere they have converted or not, dont you realise that this is actually a confirmation that they did not get paid. otherwise the first thing they would have done if they were to get paid is to say they have converted!

I've added emphasis to some parts.

That might make perfect sense to someone who believes in God and believes in the divine nature of the Quran without having any proof either way.
To say that because we have no knowledge of one thing it confirms something else is logically ridiculous.

Besides, don't you think the muslims who make all these videos and websites of Keith Moore quotes would let us know? Wouldn't it be the ultimate icing on the cake if he had converted?

If he truly believed that these works were the direct word of God, what other option would he have but to convert, there would be no question. What he doesn't say speaks as loudly as what he does.

format_quote Originally Posted by kay106

by us not knowing whethere they have converted or not, dont you realise that this is actually a confirmation that they did not get paid. otherwise the first thing they would have done if they were to get paid is to say they have converted!

Very few people do any serious research on anything without being paid! Like us, they have families to feed.

Moore, whom nobody denies is a very distinguished expert in the area, was employed (i.e. paid) by the Saudi government, having a faculty position at King Abdul Aziz University and working for the embryology commission at that university with a brief to interpret the statements in the Qur'an that refer to embryology. There was nothing 'under the counter' about it, and he has never denied it. There was therefore no reason to claim he had converted to Islam when he had not and there is no suggestion anybody tried to persuade him, financially or otherwise, to claim he had done so. The purpose of the embrology commission was/is serious research (although what in is debatable), not to gain converts to Islam with cheap tricks.

If Moore ever subsequently converted to Islam he has never said so, and for the last ten years or so has just avoided all questions on both issues. From which most sensible people draw their own conclusions.