Assalamu Alaikum,
I was born into a Muslim Family and now am a student who would like some answers. I have done my research, but I feel now that a forum would be the best place for further discussion. I ask that no one "hijack" my thread because I would like all my answers answered no matter how long it takes. That being said let me start:
I am going to start at the basics. Let us assume I don't know Islam is correct. Therefore, I do not know whether God exists or not. Can someone show me why I should belive in a God? Please don't say things like "look at the miracle of Quran"; point me to specific verse numbers if you say that. Or give me philosophical arguments.
To arrive to God is a personal quest.. I doubt anyone can make you an argument for or against God!..
once you question your situation you can only come up with two plausible conclusions at the very fulcrum upon which all else rests!.. either there is an omnipotent and omniscient originator that is the first cause and has set all into motion.. or it was all a series of favorable chances.. every few yrs some small nuclear fragments fell into proper sequence, developed sentience and voila the universe and all therein ..
whatever conclusions you reach should really be a result of your own search and reflections... it isn't a communal effort..
all the best!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
It is more important for me to find out what God expects out of me IF he exists instead of trying to figure out if he exists or not.
Now, any given religion has more people who don't follow it than there are people who do. Also, the majority of people in the world are born and die in the religion of their parents/society. If a God of one of these religions was just, why would he do this? How does he expect me to go through each religion and find out which is the right one when this is an extremely hard process to do objectively?
Therefore I can only conclude that I cannot really do anything for God as it is pretty much impossible for me to figure out what he wants.
It is more important for me to find out what God expects out of me IF he exists instead of trying to figure out if he exists or not.
Now, any given religion has more people who don't follow it than there are people who do. Also, the majority of people in the world are born and die in the religion of their parents/society. If a God of one of these religions was just, why would he do this? How does he expect me to go through each religion and find out which is the right one when this is an extremely hard process to do objectively?
Therefore I can only conclude that I cannot really do anything for God as it is pretty much impossible for me to figure out what he wants.
Makes sense?
this is from your first post no?
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
I do not know whether God exists or not. Can someone show me why I should belive in a God?
You seem very confused and without focus-- can you yourself spot the contradiction?
If you can't establish whether or not God exists why do you want to waste your time and everyone else's on semantics and minor nuances of which religion or why?.. further to go insulting everyone's intelligence by a massive sweep of your brush assuming, folks only follow the religion of their parents rather than a result of some thought and reflection, and then at the end wrapping it nicely with, well I don't want to follow this God anyway...
plainly put 'DON'T' as stated in my first post this is a solo journey not a communal effort...
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I was raised as a Catholic. Like you say, like most people, I got the religion my parents gave me. In my early school days at a Catholic school I wasn’t so much educated about the religion I was spoon fed it and required to learn much of it by rote. Those teachings were quite prescriptive; do this and you go to heaven, do that and you go to hell and then there was purgatory and limbo.
I was in my mid teens when I started to form similar questions to those posed by ponderer331. If God was perfect why would he send a good man to hell for dieing with a ‘mortal’ sin on his soul and let another into heaven who had committed many heinous mortal sins but had (luckily) received absolution before death. I can recall being taught about the work of Albert Schweitzer and being much impressed about what a good man he was and asking the question, if he missed Mass on Sunday (a mortal sin) and suddenly dropped dead would he go to hell (I was a child at the time). I never got a good answer. In my mid to late teens, after giving it some serious thought I concluded that if there was a God he had to be perfect and perfect Gods must dispense perfect justice. So I formed the view that God would judge me for what I did not for what I believed.
Of course I’d love to wrap myself in the warm blanket of belief that if I did a, b and c, I would end up in paradise and to that end I have studied some different forms of belief followed by people who seem to believe them most fervently. The problem is, it always comes back to the same thing, you get to a point where every religion says something to the effect that ‘it can’t be explained you must have faith.’
So the search, the questions and the thinking continues.
Also, keep in mind that if you're looking for a way of life - try to see the religions based on its number of followers - look at the most followed religion and work your way down. I don't say this because number is important, but because more followers may have a reasoning behind it, and that if God sent a truth - He wouldn't make it so impossible to hide His true religion from the masses.
In Islam 'wrapping' yourself in a, b or c doesn't guarantee anyone entrance into paradise... all who enter are there through God's mercy.. doing righteous or evil deeds counts for something, very unlike Christianity where Jesus is a sort of sin eater, all you need to do is accept him and be guaranteed paradise.. and it isn't a birth right either like in Judaism..
reductionist arguments don't do much for me.. I don't personally draw satisfaction from simplistic conclusions..
Islam isn't about simple prayer or fast and Alms giving, although those are integral pillars and one can argue (if nothing at all, they by themselves serve to give humans, a sense of peace, purpose, fulfillment and solid relations to the communities in which they live)
Islam covers every aspect of daily living from the way you groom to the way you run a state, it is a complete political and economic system as well, and has worked quite well when it was implemented better known to humanity as the 'age of reason'...
Islam doesn't favor a blond over a red head, isn't exclusive to a group of people and it doesn't ask for absurdities.. all that is asked of one are things of benefit to one, if you will exclude an 'afterlife' you can still appreciate how implementation will work for this life. It is about reason and justice and a solid system where no one is left out, not a system of fear of punishment!
all the best!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
You seem very confused and without focus-- can you yourself spot the contradiction?
If you can't establish whether or not God exists why do you want to waste your time and everyone else's on semantics and minor nuances of which religion or why?.. further to go insulting everyone's intelligence by a massive sweep of your brush assuming, folks only follow the religion of their parents rather than a result of some thought and reflection, and then at the end wrapping it nicely with, well I don't want to follow this God anyway...
plainly put 'DON'T' as stated in my first post this is a solo journey not a communal effort...
all the best
This post sounds very angry to me. I simply came here looking for people's perspectives; I fail to see where I am insulting everyone's intelligence.
I am very focused. My point here was that I saw no reason to choose one religion over another. Also, am I wrong in my generalization that most people are brought up in their faith from birth? I wasn't saying "everyone"; I said "most". And even when people do give it the "thought and reflection" you mentioned, it is not from a neutral stance, thereby being vulnerable to confirmation bias. Again, I am not saying everyone is like this.
I am looking for reasons why people chose to believe in God, and why they chose Islam over others. I was hoping this would help me in making my own decisions.
If my posts seem irrelevant and a waste of time to you, then please don't respond. The other posters here have been very helpful. The moderators will take care of it if it is not appropriate.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your stance appears to be very much like:
"In my quest to find the truth, I have realized that Islam is the one true religion. I cannot know God's intentions, but I strongly feel that he is there, and expects me to live my life according to Islam in order to go to heaven. To learn what Islam teaches, I refer to scholars, and again figure out which scholar (shafi, hanafi etc) fits best with what I feel.
Also, I do not know whether those who disbelieve will go to heaven or not; God knows best."
The reason why I came to Islam is because in it I found 100% answers.
My search consisted of months of sleepless nights, searching, reading like mad, watching videos, reading forums etc. Alhamdulillah in the end I found peace with Allah.
Why believe in God? Well it is a personal thing but through simple logic I have no doubts in his existence. Although I could give you a million examples all you have to do is read about the sperm cell from its production to its journey into the egg.
Atheists swear by the unproven scientific "theories" about the origins of the universe but I have never been and never will be convinced. I have seen these arguments over and over that last for weeks and months with no conclusion.
I found total peace in Islam and the confidence that I have definitely made the right choice.
It is something you can only understand if you reach out and call out to Allah from the deepest parts of your heart.
The only person able to convince you is actually yourself.
May Allah giude you and make your journey to truth easy.
This post sounds very angry to me. I simply came here looking for people's perspectives; I fail to see where I am insulting everyone's intelligence.
how does a post make a sound?
I am very focused. My point here was that I saw no reason to choose one religion over another. Also, am I wrong in my generalization that most people are brought up in their faith from birth? I wasn't saying "everyone"; I said "most". And even when people do give it the "thought and reflection" you mentioned, it is not from a neutral stance, thereby being vulnerable to confirmation bias. Again, I am not saying everyone is like this.
How are you focused when on one post, you are looking for proof for God, and in the second one you dismiss that in search of what religion?
what is the point/purpose or pursuing a religion (path to God) if you don't even believe he exists?
I'll use the analogy, you don't believe in Poiseuille’s Law yet come and argue you the nuances of calculation of cardiac output and to complicate matter, you ask why not use Fick's laws of diffusion-- you have no concept what each is used for or how how to work different variables.. it seems logical at least to me, if you wish to argue little details of why or why not, that you first establish yourself in a physics course? -- Religion is no different! there is no point of arguing why not Zoroastrianism instead of Islam, when God to you may or may not exist!
further who said other Abrahamic religions are wrong? it isn't a matter of who is wrong or right, they all have elements of truth.. this is about what is most correct for our purposes..
like a question on your exam.. several answers maybe correct, but only one answer is most correct, and that will be the one to raise your score or in practical use, save and better someone's life
NSAIDs, steroids, colchicine and DMARDS can all be used for arthritis, so how do you choose which is correct for a patient? -- does require some thought and study!-- no different than religion!
I am looking for reasons why people chose to believe in God, and why they chose Islam over others. I was hoping this would help me in making my own decisions.
as stated and I so hate repeating myself, arriving to God is a solo journey.. you want to read why folks chose Islam, you may go to comparative religion and read the 'convert stories'
If my posts seem irrelevant and a waste of time to you, then please don't respond. The other posters here have been very helpful. The moderators will take care of it if it is not appropriate.
then don't bait me with another post as such!
format_quote Originally Posted by ponderer331
Also, Skye
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your stance appears to be very much like:
"In my quest to find the truth, I have realized that Islam is the one true religion. I cannot know God's intentions, but I strongly feel that he is there, and expects me to live my life according to Islam in order to go to heaven. To learn what Islam teaches, I refer to scholars, and again figure out which scholar (shafi, hanafi etc) fits best with what I feel.
Also, I do not know whether those who disbelieve will go to heaven or not; God knows best."
Am I mistaken in any part of that?
by the above quote do you mean to speak for my person? I never told you in my quest for truth, I found Islam to be truth for such and such...
living a life under the banner of Islam isn't for the mere outcome of heaven, and I personally don't follow any scholar's teaching... I read and I reason, and I don't concern myself of the fate of others, because I am not funneling people to heaven or hell it seems rather inconsequential I think one should busy themselves with their own fate!
all the best!
Last edited by جوري; 11-17-2008 at 09:13 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
You are extremely unhelpful in making comments such as these. You know quite well that what I meant when I said "your post sounds angry" was my perspective on the tone of your post.
I will stop responding and asking you questions now. You seem more interested in arguing than helping. Sorry for my remarks.
I still ask others in the forum in helping answer my questions.
To: Hamayun
You say that believing God is "a personal thing" but that you belived "through simple logic." Logic (and reason) is not personal; it is universal. This is the only part of your post that is problematic to me. I don't see how your musings on things like the sperm cell is simple or logical. Doesn't it bother you that most (85-90+%) scientists of NAS and Royal Society express doubt or disbelief in God? I daresay they have a better understanding of biology (and sperm) than you. However, by the rest of your post I will assume that you meant that believing is personal.
I used to be a devout Muslim. I used to pray 5 times a day, and struggled to stay away from the evils (according to Islam) of those around me, which is quite hard to do at an American University. I only ate halal, and spent a great deal of time with the Quran and learning about Islam. However, to make others belive in Islam, I started researching it and only came up with empty answers to my questions. That is when I drifted away from God, which is quite ironic because Allah asks you to seek knowledge.
You also stated that I have to call out to Allah from the deepest part of my heart. Now, I have to assume that you think that when I used to believe I was not sincere, or at least didn't reach "the deepest" parts of my heart. I think that is where we will have to agree to disagree.
Also, how is an agnostic supposed to reach that part of his heart when he doesn't believe in Allah in the first place? Hardly seems a just God would allow that to me.
If there is a universal consensus on this forum that believing in God is a strictly personal thing, and has nothing to do with reason or logic, I will leave it at that. I don't know if everyone agrees with that though.
You are extremely unhelpful in making comments such as these. You know quite well that what I meant when I said "your post sounds angry" was my perspective on the tone of your post.
You are extremely disjointed-- I don't know 'quite well' what you meant.. that is what you've personally deduced, I assume, if you are capable of such insightful reasoning, you can also ponder what it is that ails your posts?
I will stop responding and asking you questions now. You seem more interested in arguing than helping. Sorry for my remarks.
super!
If there is a universal consensus on this forum that believing in God is a strictly personal thing, and has nothing to do with reason or logic, I will leave it at that. I don't know if everyone agrees with that though.
Peace to all, and sorry if i offended anyone.
No one said it was strictly personal... I have already stated in my first post, you can only have two logical conclusions to the human condition and whatever route you pursue from there on is personal..
I imagine arriving to God, is rather logical, atheism is a universal negative... in order for atheism to be correct, you either have to account for everything else in the known universe by way of experimentation and observable truth in lieu of hypothesis or concede your surrender to the obvious, which would also satisfy the principle of parsimony...
stop arrogating without authority or understanding of what others write or mean.. and then come all exasperated as if you suffered some grievous injustice!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Haha really now? You really thought that I was saying that the post was making an audible sound? You really didn't know that I was talking about the tone of your post?
It is a personal thing... eeman can not be given Brother. You either have it or you don't.
A perfect example of that is you have scientists who are atheists but you also have a large number of scientists, doctors, astronomers etc who through their research in Biology, Chemistry, Physics found God and then later reverted to Islam. Seen my signature? Makes sense I guess... but don't ask me why. Allahu Alim.
You say you were a devout Muslim and have now drifted away then that is unfortunate but I can not help you.
I have absolutely no doubts about Islam being the only way for me. But if it is not for you then thats not something anyone can help you with...
My story is opposite to yours. I went from being born a muslim to turning Atheist and then finding peace in Islam.
Wish I could help with your search but you already have formed an opinion so it would be futile anyway.
Haha really now? You really thought that I was saying that the post was making an audible sound? You really didn't know that I was talking about the tone of your post?
Please.
Do you have something of substance to impart that is actually relevant to what I write, or just want to act a little precious?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
A perfect example of that is you have scientists who are atheists but you also have a large number of scientists, doctors, astronomers etc who through their research in Biology, Chemistry, Physics found God and then later reverted to Islam. Seen my signature? Makes sense I guess... but don't ask me why. Allahu Alim.
I guess what I am saying is that science causes people to become atheists/agnostics much more than it causes people to believe in God. Can you please point me towards examples of scientists reverting to Islam THROUGH their research?
Do you have something of substance to impart that is actually relevant to what I write, or just want to act a little precious?
How ironic, when it is you who made the comment on how a post can make a sound.
You can say whatever. This is my last post in response to you.
I guess what I am saying is that science causes people to become atheists/agnostics much more than it causes people to believe in God. Can you please point me towards examples of scientists reverting to Islam THROUGH their research?
This is just the first example I could find. There are many others but please don't make me do your leg work. This is your search...
What makes sense to me wont necessarily make sense to you
Here are a few more vids. Not many scientists like to make youtube vids of their reversion so dont expect to find it all so easily.
This still probably wont convince you so make of it what you like, it really is none of my busines... what makes sense to me probably wont make sense to you.
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