Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad

1. The language and style of the Qur'an

Can you be more specific? We have gone over this several times in the thread and I am guessing you are a native Arabic-speaker because this miracle is lost on the rest of us.

2. The incapability to produce anything similar to it by the disbelievers during the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) time and those after them.

At the time no-one could or no-one would? The Qur'an is mostly written in the first-person majestic plural of God's own Direct Speech, and to replicate this style is blasphemy for any believer in any god, even in the eyes of the Makkans I imagine, who did have a god called Allah also.

3. The stories and accounts of the nations and prophets of old, since the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had no recourse to such information.

The Old Testament, particularly Genesis and Exodus, contains most of the Prophetic stories mentioned in the Qur'an, if not in more detail. Even if you could not read this book, recourse to this information is possible through oral means, and it is well-known that the Arabs had a strong oral tradition and ability to memorise what they heard.

4. The predictions which occurred in the Qur'an, and which later came true

I feel that most of the predictions are not clearly defined, and some are not even predictions but rather verses taken to mean something they clearly do not, as is the case with many of the science verses. In any case depend on a passage of time before they could be 'validated', again as in the case of the science in the Qur'an.

5. The perfect belief of Monotheism - the attribution of all that befits Allaah and the negation of all that does not befit Him, and the call of the Creator to the created to worship Him. All of this is not possible for a human to bring forth unless he was inspired by Allaah.

Why not? Once we have established the concept of God, then any human is entitled to believe in God, his attributes and to call others to worship him without being neccessarily inspired by God. How can this be interpreted as 'miracle'?

6. The laws and sharee'ah that the Qur'an came with, and the morals and conduct that it called for. All of this leads to the betterment of life in this world and in the Hereafter. The perfection of a set of laws that can be applied to any society at any time and place is humanly impossible, and the sharee'ah is the only example of such a set of laws.

I think you will find many Muslims and non-muslims who disagree with this.

7. Scientific facts mentioned in the Qur'an that were unknown at that time.

See 4 above.

8. The fact that it has been protected and remained unchanged over such a long period of time, despite the fact that all other religious books have been distorted.

So do many books remain unchanged but that doesn't make them holy or miraculous, it is only a testament to the regard in which they are held and the language in which they are printed.

10. The miraculous nature of the various ways and manners of reciting the Qur'an (the ahruf and qira'aat).

How is this miraculous? It seems that you are using a different definition of 'miracle' than many of us.

11. The ease by which it is memorised, and this is known by experience and observance.This is in contrast to all other religious books, for none of them are memorised like the Qur'an.

No other book claims to carry a reward of taking its memoriser and their family members to Paradise. It is well known that many parents encourage their children to memorise the Qur'an at a young age so that he can take them to Paradise.

12. The deep meanings that are present inside it, and the fact that a reader never tires of reading the Qur'an, no matter how many times he has heard it or read it. This is in contrast to any other book, since a person cannot read it more than a few times without it getting monotonous and mundane.

This is largely subjective - there are many books which I never tire of reading and which have a deep meaning to them, but this does not make them miraculous!

I am sure brother Muhammad won't mind if I stole his thunder

format_quote Originally Posted by Eliphaz

Can you be more specific? We have gone over this several times in the thread and I am guessing you are a native Arabic-speaker because this miracle is lost on the rest of us.

You don't need to be a native Arabic speaker to appreciate its miraculous nature, in fact that has been addressed above by Muslims who are non-Arabic speaking..

At the time no-one could or no-one would? The Qur'an is mostly written in the first-person majestic plural of God's own Direct Speech, and to replicate this style is blasphemy for any believer in any god, even in the eyes of the Makkans I imagine, who did have a god called Allah also.

You mistake replication for plagiarism?
The challenge of the Quran is that you bring a book that will be a guidance for all mankind that matches the Quran in
1- linguistics /poetic style
2- transcendence
3- cover all aspects of human life, politics/economics/social structure/ beliefs/inheritance/ events that have happened with clear accuracy and those yet to happen with equal accuracy, be a guidance to man kind a way to cure an ill hear when recited with pure intent to name a few!

The Old Testament, particularly Genesis and Exodus, contains most of the Prophetic stories mentioned in the Qur'an, if not in more detail. Even if you could not read this book, recourse to this information is possible through oral means, and it is well-known that the Arabs had a strong oral tradition and ability to memorise what they heard.

Bring me then the story of A'ad, Thamud, Ahel al kahf, zhu el qarnyen, as7ab alfeel to name a few from the old testament or better yet from the oral traditions of Arabs who themselves failed to match the Quran on every level mentioned above!

I feel that most of the predictions are not clearly defined, and some are not even predictions but rather verses taken to mean something they clearly do not, as is the case with many of the science verses. In any case depend on a passage of time before they could be 'validated', again as in the case of the science in the Qur'an.

You make alot of statements of generalities, until such a time you can elucidate for us what you mean, your statements can be dismissed!

Why not? Once we have established the concept of God, then any human is entitled to believe in God, his attributes and to call others to worship him without being neccessarily inspired by God. How can this be interpreted as 'miracle'?

Until such a time you or someone like you brings us a perfect Quran and Sunnah both completely different in style, covering every aspect of life and going strong millenniums later can it be considered anything less than a miracle!

I think you will find many Muslims and non-muslims who disagree with this.

Disagreeing doesn't make it incorrect.. it is just your opinion..
in the eyes of a murderer capital punishment is incorrect.. it is a subjective opinion, has nothing to do with the perfection or lack of of the law!

See 4 above.

see reply to four!

So do many books remain unchanged but that doesn't make them holy or miraculous, it is only a testament to the regard in which they are held and the language in which they are printed.

which books are those? are they books of God or books of physics? a book should do what it claims!

How is this miraculous? It seems that you are using a different definition of 'miracle' than many of us.

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No other book claims to carry a reward of taking its memoriser and their family members to Paradise. It is well known that many parents encourage their children to memorise the Qur'an at a young age so that he can take them to Paradise.

The Rewards for those who recite and practise the Qur'aan

Aboo Moosaa al-Ash'aree reported that the Prophet said, "Part of Showing glory to Allaah is to show respect to a white-haired Muslim, and a carrier of the Qur'aan who does not exaggerate in it (i.e., overstep its bounds) nor ignore it (i.e., leave it), and a just ruler" (Aboo Dawoood)

'Aa'ishah reported that the Prophet said, "The person who reads the Qur'aan fluently is with the honourable and obedient scribes (i.e. angels), and he who reads it with difficulty, (even) he shall get (at least) a double reward" (Aboo Dawood)

Ibn Mas'ood reported that the Prophet said, "Whoever wishes to love Allaah and His Messenger, let him read the mus-haf" (Ibn Nu'aym in his Hilya).

Ibn 'Amr reported that the Prophet said, "There is no cause to be envious except in two cases: (the first is of a) person whom Allaah has taught the Qur'aan, and he recites it in the day and night, and one of his neighbours hears him and says, 'Woe to me! I wish I had been given what he has been given, then I would do what he is doing! (The second is of a) person whom Allah has blessed with wealth, and he spends it in good causes, so a person (who sees him) says, 'Woe to me! I wish I had been given what he has been given, then I would do what he is doing!" (al-Bukhaaree)

Aboo Hurayrah reported that the Prophet said, "The Qur'aan will be brought on the Day of Judgement, and it will say, 'O My Lord! Adorn him (the one who read and practised it)!' So he will be adorned with the crown of glory and honour . It will then say, 'O My Lord! Increase this!' So he will be clothed with the clothes of glory and honour. Then it will say, 'O My Lord! Be pleased with Him! So He (Allaah) will be pleased with him. It will be said, 'Recite! And rise!' and every verse he recites will bless him with a good deed" (at-Tirmidhee)

Ibn 'Amr reported that the Prophet said, "It will be said to the companion of the Qur'aan after he has entered Paradise, 'Recite, and rise!' For every verse he recites he will rise one level (in Paradise), until he recites the last verse with him (i.e., in his memory)." (Aboo Dawood)

Ibn Mas'ood reported that the Prophet said, "Recite the Qur'aan, for verily you will be rewarded for it. I am not saying that Alif-Laam-Meem will count as a word, but rather that Alif has ten (rewards), Laam has ten (rewards), and Meem has ten (rewards), so this is thirty (rewards)" (Khateeb al-Baghdaadee)

'Ismah Ibn Maalik reported that the Prophet said "If the Qur'aan is enclosed by skin (i.e., if a person memorises the entire Qur'aan), then Allaah will never burn it in the Fire (of Hell) (al-Bayhaqee)

Aboo Hurayrah reported that the Prophet said, "Never do a group of people gather together in one of the houses of Allaah, reciting the Book of Allaah and pondering over it, except that peace descends upon them, and mercy surrounds them, and the angels encircle them, and Allaah remembers them in His gathering" (Aboo Daawood)

Aboo Moosaa al-Asha'aree reported that the Prophet said, "The believer who recites the Qur'aan is like a citrus fruit - its fragrance is pleasing and its taste is sweet. The believer who does not recite the Qur'aan is like a dry date - it has no fragrance but its taste is sweet. The hypocrite who recites the Qur'aan is like a basil - its fragrance is sweet, but its taste is bitter. The hypocrite who does not recite the Qur'aan is like a colocynth - it has no smell, and its taste is bitter" (Muslim)

[As found in "An Introduction To The Sciences Of The Qur'aan"]

This is largely subjective - there are many books which I never tire of reading and which have a deep meaning to them, but this does not make them miraculous!

not subjective if agreed upon by the majority of Muslims, what is subjective is however your own opinion on what you find deep... if you'd like a comparative study with what you have read and the Quran, by all means..
again, statements of generalities aren't very weighty!


all the best!

BTW the Pagan Arabs had no God names Allah (that is the problem when you get your insta smarts from evangies) Jewish and Christian Arabs knew God as Allah or derivatives of the name (Elohim) etc.
Pagan Arabs had Alat, al'ozza, and Manat.. look it up.. if you can't find it in evangie sites, they are certainly addressed in the Quran in suret An'Najm!


I guess the saying is true.. quality research isn't cheap!

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Interesting post but to me it would be very very odd that you can extract NEW meanings and that would to my mind be a definite refutation as it implies that there is really no meaning and one may extract whatever takes your fancy.

Those new meanings are not necessary to understand the Quran. Its like a new perspective. Everytime I read my favorite secular novel again and again, I get new perspectives. Does it refute the fact, assuming the novel was "mubeen," that the novel was coherent and well written? No.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad

However, many more exist, and it is important to consider all of the miraculous facets in combination, as the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is not by any one of them only. Examples of these are the following:

1. The language and style of the Qur'an
2. The incapability to produce anything similar to it by the disbelievers during the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) time and those after them.
3. The stories and accounts of the nations and prophets of old, since the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had no recourse to such information.
4. The predictions which occurred in the Qur'an, and which later came true
5. The perfect belief of Monotheism - the attribution of all that befits Allaah and the negation of all that does not befit Him, and the call of the Creator to the created to worship Him. All of this is not possible for a human to bring forth unless he was inspired by Allaah.
6. The laws and sharee'ah that the Qur'an came with, and the morals and conduct that it called for. All of this leads to the betterment of life in this world and in the Hereafter. The perfection of a set of laws that can be applied to any society at any time and place is humanly impossible, and the sharee'ah is the only example of such a set of laws.
7. Scientific facts mentioned in the Qur'an that were unknown at that time.
8. The fact that it has been protected and remained unchanged over such a long period of time, despite the fact that all other religious books have been distorted.
9. The compilation of the Qur'an and the diligence with which all the knowledge essential for its understanding has been preserved (such as the causes of revelation behind specific verses, verses revealed in Makkah/Madeenah, abrogation etc.)
10. The miraculous nature of the various ways and manners of reciting the Qur'an (the ahruf and qira'aat).
11. The ease by which it is memorised, and this is known by experience and observance.This is in contrast to all other religious books, for none of them are memorised like the Qur'an.
12. The deep meanings that are present inside it, and the fact that a reader never tires of reading the Qur'an, no matter how many times he has heard it or read it. This is in contrast to any other book, since a person cannot read it more than a few times without it getting monotonous and mundane.
13. The impact that the Qur'an has on those who hear it and the euphonious quality of the Qur'an.

Taken from An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an, Yasir Qadhi, with slight modifications.

This is a useful post as it outlines some of the claims made for the Qu'ran. At this time I make two points.

1. There are 13 claims here and the writer says there are more so is this like a chain in that suppose I or anyone can refute any of the above claims will that mean that the Qu'ran is then shown to be not of God?

2. It is a principle well accepted in Science that a theory (let's call all 13 of the above theories) has to be falsifiable otherwise it cannot be regarded in anyway as scientific. Thus, it might sound odd but what we attempt to do in an almost brutal manner is to try to find something, some result that falsifies the theory - if you cannot work out how to do that unambiguously then we cannot show the theory to be true and we cannot show it to be false either. Another way of putting it as some have done is to re frame it into a question 'What does the theory imply which, if false, would show the whole theory to be false?'

Think about the famous white swan question - if we had a theory that all swans are white then we can easily see without ANT doubt immediately that IF we can find ONE non-white swan then the theory fails - that is we KNOW when the theory fails if a certain thing occurs and if we know that we know how it might be falsified. Be careful, this does not mean that the theory will fail but it does mean we can recognise it if it does. Two examples:

Being topical here, suppose we say that God exists then that only becomes a scientific theory IF we can say unambiguous when it fails to be true. Thus, someone might say "earthquakes" prove there is no God; although this MAY be true there is no way any one would feel certain of this test so that argument is fallacious.

Again, suppose someone says "he is lying because he is demon possessed" now this might be a true explanation of his lying but I cannot think (can you) of any way to show that it is UNTRUE (incompatible) so we therefore say it is in essence a logical fallacy.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Replication is plagiarism if it does not cite the sources so not quite sure what you mean here - do you mean the Qu'ran replicates Biblical stories?.

Indeed.. replication is plagiarism.. Early Arabs who tried to imitate the style of the Quran to take the Quran challenge used a complete verse and substituted two words of a verse for something else, that doesn't equate to a new better Quran that is a guidance for man kind it equals to plagiarized Quran:

Plagiarism looks like this:

"The Coconut Palm (Cocos nucifera) is a member of the Family Arecaceae (palm family). It is the only species in the genus Cocos, and is a large palm, growing to 30 m tall, with pinnate leaves 4-6 m long, pinnae 60-90 cm long; old leaves break away cleanly leaving the trunk smooth. The term coconut refers to the fruit of the coconut palm. "



highlighted and copied the information, pasted it in a word document and turned it ones own work. Surely you don't need to have that elucidated?
I challenge you to show me where the Quran plagiarized your bible and the name of the person or persons who translated Grecian stories to the prophet in perfect queryshi tongue to rest on seven ahruf!

What if I bring say the Bible, that has been around for millennia and long before the Qu'ran was available. It has all that is needed and if we simply think of literary merit, passages like the latter chapters of Isaiah (1,000 years older than the Qu'ran) or the sermon in the mount or Psalm 23 or 1 Corinthians 13 are far superior to anything found in the Qu'ran or Sunnah. So let me turn the challenge around - YOU find something that matches say the beauty and profundity of 1 Corinthians 13?

I don't think you can even comprehend the weightiness of what is requested of you here.. firstly you have never read the Quran nor recited it, nor listened to it to know of the lyricism and its profound effect on the believer.. I can't compare your Psalm of the lord being a sheep herder to even a poem of Antonio Machado which I believe far exceeds the bible in beauty!

by Antonio Machado
(1875 - 1939) Timeline
English version by
Robert Bly
Original Language
Spanish

Last night, as I was sleeping,
I dreamt -- marvelous error!—
that a spring was breaking
out in my heart.
I said: Along which secret aqueduct,
Oh water, are you coming to me,
water of a new life
that I have never drunk?

Last night, as I was sleeping,
I dreamt -- marvelous error!—
that I had a beehive
here inside my heart.
And the golden bees
were making white combs
and sweet honey
from my old failures.

Last night, as I was sleeping,
I dreamt -- marvelous error!—
that a fiery sun was giving
light inside my heart.
It was fiery because I felt
warmth as from a hearth,
and sun because it gave light
and brought tears to my eyes.

Last night, as I slept,
I dreamt -- marvelous error!—
that it was God I had
here inside my heart.

Also, you can't have an excerpt to represent your whole book.. I need every chapter to be unlike any other and be equally profound on all the criteria listed.. you need your bible to read collectively beautiful.. even the parts when Abraham marries his sister or Lut sleeps with his daughters and the psalms that you care not mention like this:
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4).

frankly I find the tone of the bible downright misogynistic!
if you can edit or remove those parts (plus the central tenet) of God, born, confused and dying, .. and in the end have it needs to sound like this:

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perhaps then can we have an object of comparison..

by the way find me this sura in the bible too (suret ad-dukhan) which discusses one of the signs of the end of the world amongst other things!

What for you is the difference in the context of this thread between fact and opinion. You may think the Qu'ran unsurpassed in terms of say literary merit but others might not agree so its a matter of opinion not fact.

The difference is in the criteria, and it has been listed for you all throughout here!

I have no comment really here but this sounds so absurd that I can hardly believe it can be taken literally. The whole, idea of merit through recitation seem antithetical to good works and deeds - that is Gods word should be alive in our hearts and actions not just on our lips.

I actually find what you just described more in concert with how Christians live their lives and in order to deflect from their overt hypocrisies they'd rather project what they are unto Muslims.. (all praise Jesus) but you can't get them to live an ounce in his shoes.. the most I have seen done is an attendance of Christmas mass or easter sunday where even that is jaded by some commercial gift giving and Noruz (pagan) offering!


by the way what is the point of this absurd exercise? How could you possible expect to discuss the Quran on a level with me or any Muslim?


all the best