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Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

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    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God? (OP)


    format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān View Post
    Greetings Hugo, We can prove that the Qur'an is the word of God by demonstrating it's miraculous nature - the fact that it cannot possibly have been the work of human hands. This is touched upon in this video: How is the Qur'an Miraculous? The Challenge of the Qur'an. Since this is a slightly different area of discussion, I suggest you create a thread in the Clarifications about Islam section if you wish to continue discussing it. Please do watch the video first though.

    Regards
    This is a new thread based on discussions elsewhere and the above is the suggestion from Uthman. My opening remarks are:

    I looked at the video you suggested and essentially the speaker takes 20 minutes to state that the Qu'ran is a 'literary miracle' but as far as I could tell the only 'proof' he offers is that the Meccan's could not reproduce anything like it at the time and according to him that equals it cannot be done.

    Coupled with this he makes what to me seems odd claims that Arabic scholars at Cambridge or Princeton are of no account compared to those say in Cairo and it seem even they could not hold a candle to the Meccan pre-islamic Arabic speakers

    This to me seems a very weak argument but I would like to explore it and my next post I begin by discussing what is typically understood by the term 'proof' and ways in which the idea of proof is used.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    What loop is this - my comment is not about the nature of experience its about your logic.
    Well, my logic followed certain rules here. I dismissed the existence of Holy Ghost just because it is based on experience. Hence, I said that it does not exist. You used this argument to 'refute' one of the Muslimah who said that she just feels Quran is the word of God.

    Now You said that just because I have not experienced the Holy Ghost, it does not mean that it does not exist. See, you are using two contradictory train of thoughts here? On one hand you completely shrug off the subjective experiential basis of proof. Fine, I agree. On the other hand you use the very same subjective experiential basis to tell me that Holy Ghost "might" exist even though I have not experienced it. I just have to say, wow. Muslim apologetic claims regarding "miracles" of Quran (I am in agreement with some of them while others are totally blown out of proportions) make much more sense than what you just said.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    I am sure brother Muhammad won't mind if I stole his thunder

    You don't need to be a native Arabic speaker to appreciate its miraculous nature, in fact that has been addressed above by Muslims who are non-Arabic speaking..
    So a non-Arabic speaking person has addressed the miraculous language and style of the Qur’an without actually having any knowledge of the Arabic language, let alone its structures or idioms? I find this not only hard to believe but worthy of a miracle in itself. It is more likely that you are talking of a revert who spent years studying Arabic, despite it not being their original tongue, before coming to this conclusion.

    You mistake replication for plagiarism?
    The challenge of the Quran is that you bring a book that will be a guidance for all mankind that matches the Quran in
    1- linguistics /poetic style
    2- transcendence
    3- cover all aspects of human life, politics/economics/social structure/ beliefs/inheritance/ events that have happened with clear accuracy and those yet to happen with equal accuracy, be a guidance to man kind a way to cure an ill hear when recited with pure intent to name a few!
    ‘If you have doubts about the revelation We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a single sura like it - enlist whatever supporters you have other than God – if you truly think [that you can].’ The Cow, verse 23.

    1. This is not difficult, as there many attempts of people who have done this, and in fact many works of poetry superior to the Qur’an
    2. This is impossible for any book, even with the Qur’an
    3. If the Qur’an covered all aspects of human life, there would be no need for ijtihad, ijma and qiyas, there would not be such disagreements over everything from drawing pictures to democracy.

    Bring me then the story of A'ad, Thamud, Ahel al kahf, zhu el qarnyen, as7ab alfeel to name a few from the old testament or better yet from the oral traditions of Arabs who themselves failed to match the Quran on every level mentioned above!
    I said most, not all. I was also not aware that Zhul Qarnayn (commonly thought to be Alexander the Great) or the People of the Cave were Prophets. But even if they were, consider Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Joseph, Solomon, Moses, Aaron and Jesus are all mentioned in the Old and New Testaments, that is, still more than two thirds of the Prophets mentioned in the Qur’an. The other stories, Hud/A’ad, Salih/Thamud, were, in my opinion, traditional stories well-known amongst at least some Arab and/or Assyrian people long before they were put into the Qur’an.

    You make alot of statements of generalities, until such a time you can elucidate for us what you mean, your statements can be dismissed!
    I feel it is necessary to generalise where there are many things in the book people call scientific but are not necessarily so, and to go into each one in detail would surely turn this into a debate on science, when it is clear to me that Muslims do not, or should not, rest their sole faith on the scientific merits of the Qur’an.

    Until such a time you or someone like you brings us a perfect Quran and Sunnah both completely different in style, covering every aspect of life and going strong millenniums later can it be considered anything less than a miracle!
    You are assuming that the default situation must be, for some reason, that there is a book somewhere sent from God. ‘Without a book how are we supposed to be guided, what is the purpose without such a book?’ Well I find that there are many non-Muslims living a decent, moralistic life without needing to follow any book, and in fact even Muslims believe that every soul has a fitrah or innate disposition, so it is clear that God has already guided us through instilling this within us and showing us His creation as inspiration for us.

    Disagreeing doesn't make it incorrect.. it is just your opinion..
    in the eyes of a murderer capital punishment is incorrect.. it is a subjective opinion, has nothing to do with the perfection or lack of of the law!
    But there comes a point where, if a law is sent down from God, it should be seen as somewhat intuitive to his creation on some level, whereas most Muslims I have met agree that the huddud punishments of shariah are no longer applicable in any situation. Considering that some of this comes out of the Qur’an, is it not strange that its message now seems so counter-intuitive to its followers, let alone its dis-believers?

    which books are those? are they books of God or books of physics? a book should do what it claims!
    The brother was referring to the ‘miraculous’ qualities of the Qur’an, and I was simply saying that ‘remaining unchanged’ does not infer miracle from God.


    The Rewards for those who recite and practise the Qur'aan
    Yes this is what I was saying. The Qur’an is the only book which claims to give a reward for being recited in this way and offering Paradise to the one who memorises it in its original form, along with his family members. Therefore the preservation of the Qur’an is a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that parents, particularly in my culture, place more importance on having their children memorising the Qur’an from a young age than their actual understanding of it, as a kind of ‘afterlife insurance’.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    BTW the Pagan Arabs had no God names Allah (that is the problem when you get your insta smarts from evangies) Jewish and Christian Arabs knew God as Allah or derivatives of the name (Elohim) etc.
    Pagan Arabs had Alat, al'ozza, and Manat.. look it up.. if you can't find it in evangie sites, they are certainly addressed in the Quran in suret An'Najm!

    I guess the saying is true.. quality research isn't cheap!
    It is well known that the pagan Makkans had more than 300 gods which pilgrims added to over the years, and that one of them was in fact called Allah. He is not mentioned in the Qur'an as are al-Lat and al-Uzza although he did exist. He was said to have sons and daughters and to be the ‘creator-god’. This is well-known amongst many Muslims, and indeed is written in many Muslim accounts of the Prophet’s life. Where do you think the name of Muhammad's father, who was a pagan, Abdallah (slave of Allah) came from?
    Last edited by Eliphaz; 12-12-2009 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?



    When the most notable, masterful and genius, masters of the language, the famous poets of 'Arabia during the golden age of the language such as Waleed b. Mughirah and others, who were known and accepted to be the best of the best in poetry and eloquence themselves succumbed to the Qur'aan and they themselves admitted that they could never match the Qur'aan, why would anyone want to take (for the lack of a better word) 'criticisms' on the Qur'aan by people who probably don't even know the basic branches of the Arabic language, let alone any rules of the language?

    You can't blame them though for trying, even though it is a lame and sad attempt. Look at where they're coming from, they're coming from the standpoint of modern standard Arabic (that is, if they even know it in the first place!), which when compared to the Arabic of the time of the Qur'aan is but a simplified, water downed version of the language. If modern standard Arabic has 50 grammar rules, classical Arabic has 500+. The Qur'aan not only conformed to these grammar rules, it used them in a way that left the greatest masters of the language in awe - it became the apex, the crux and the standard of perfection in the language. It is an matched reference for anyone who studies the language. Any scholar of the language whose knowledge extends beyond modern Arabic and is aware at the very least of classical Arabic can tell you this. This is simple historical fact. It became and still is the reference on grammar, eloquence, and perfection in the language, even the Orientalists grudgingly admit to this, which is why they hardly ever tried to criticize the Qur'aan from this standpoint.

    So honestly, knowing this it's very hard to take anyone seriously when they ignorantly come and attempt to criticize the Qur'aan from the language. Let them study the language first, educate themselves on the 7 branches of the Arabic language, study the science of balaagha (eloquence), study pre-Arabic poetry and then come and say something about the Arabic of the Qur'an, we can take them seriously then.
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun

    "It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Greetings Eliphaz,

    Thanks for your reply. As I said earlier, the subject of the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is one that is very vast and I am not qualified to do justice to this subject. But by providing a few examples here and there, it is hoped you will realise what I mean.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eliphaz View Post
    Can you be more specific? We have gone over this several times in the thread and I am guessing you are a native Arabic-speaker because this miracle is lost on the rest of us.
    During the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), there was a pride that was prevalent among the Arabs in that tribes would compete with each other to produce the most skilled and eloquent poet. As the miracles that were given to each prophet were chosen so that they would have the greatest impact on that particular nation, the Qur'an was revealed in an Arabic that was so emotive and eloquent that the Arabs could clearly see it was a miracle from their Creator and were unable to meet the challenge of bringing forth something similar.

    So this literary aspect of the Qur'an is the most strongest and most apparent of its miraculous nature, but obviously for one having little or no knowledge of Arabic, he is greatly limited in the extent to which he can appreciate it. Despite this, it is interesting how non-Arabs can still appreciate the beauty of the language of the Qur'an and how its words can still have a deep impact on the hearts of all people. But for the interested person, there is so much to extract from the study of the language and style of the Qur'an. I will quote some examples that have been given with regards to the literary miracle of the Qur'an, though there are many others:

    - The placement of a particular word in perfect context, over its synonyms. The connotations given by the chosen word are better than those that would have been given by its synonyms.
    - The unique sentence structure and syntax, which does not follow any one particular pattern but varies throughout the Qur'an. Each style is unique and its rhythm clear and resounding.
    - The perfect combination of concisement and detail. When the subject requires elaboration, the Qur'an discusses the topic in detail, and when a short phrase will get the message across, it remains brief.

    The eloquence and beauty of the Qur'an is so great that it is considered to be the ultimate authority and reference work for Arabic rhetoric, grammar and syntax, even by non-Muslim Arabs. Moreover, orientalists who have studied the Qur'an have acknowledged the literary excellence of the Qur'an. Dawood, an Iraqi Jewish Scholar in his translation of the Qur’an, comments on numerous literary qualities of the Quran, describing it as a ‘literary masterpiece’:

    "The Koran is the earliest and by far the finest work of Classical Arabic prose… It is acknowledged that the Koran is not only one of the most influential books of prophetic literature but also a literary masterpiece in its own right… translations have, in my opinion, practically failed to convey both the meaning and the rhetorical grandeur of the original."

    For more quotes like these and a brief discussion on the subject, you can read:http://www.islam21c.com/index.php?op...g=en&task=view

    At the time no-one could or no-one would? The Qur'an is mostly written in the first-person majestic plural of God's own Direct Speech, and to replicate this style is blasphemy for any believer in any god, even in the eyes of the Makkans I imagine, who did have a god called Allah also.
    Nobody could. What you said does not make sense, because the Makkan disbelievers did not acknowledge that the Qur'an came from Allaah, hence to them there would be no blasphemy involved. Moreover, there is a famous incident in which the person known as Musaylimah the liar did try to make up his own verses to imitate the Qur'an, yet his own fellow disbeliever at that time could tell how pathetic the attempt was.

    The Old Testament, particularly Genesis and Exodus, contains most of the Prophetic stories mentioned in the Qur'an, if not in more detail. Even if you could not read this book, recourse to this information is possible through oral means, and it is well-known that the Arabs had a strong oral tradition and ability to memorise what they heard.
    Yet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had no tutorage from a monk or other Christian or Jew to know of this history, whether by written or oral means. The Makkan disbelievers knew this because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had lived amongst them for forty years. Therefore for him to suddenly begin informing his people of the histories of the previous nations was a very powerful factor proving his prophethood. The Qur'an mentions,

    This is of the news of the Unseen which We reveal unto you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم); neither you nor your people knew it before this... [11:49]

    Not only this, but not everything in the Qur'an can be found in the Bible. There was even an incident where the disbelievers of Makkah sent word to the People of the Book (the Jewish Rabbis in Madeenah) and asked them for some information with which they could test the Prophet, which the Prophet later gave correctly, as revealed in Surah Al-Kahf.

    I feel that most of the predictions are not clearly defined, and some are not even predictions but rather verses taken to mean something they clearly do not, as is the case with many of the science verses. In any case depend on a passage of time before they could be 'validated', again as in the case of the science in the Qur'an.
    A number of predictions and scientific facts are very clear. The greatest prediction of the Qur'an is concerning its own miracle - that it will remain unrivalled and unimitated for the whole of eternity. It has also predicted that it will remain uncorrupted and preserved for all of eternity. Then there are the predictions related to worldly events, such as the outcome of a battle that would occur between the Romans and the Persians, the victory in the Battle of Badr, the eventual conquest of Makkah, and the establishment of Islam as the ruling authority in the land.

    As for the scientific facts, these include the description of the formation of human life, formation of milk, the notion of orbits for the planets, and the description of the water cycle. It should be remembered though, that the Qur'an is not meant to be a book primarily devoted to science and therefore references to such subjects are typically brief. But even in these limited descriptions, the Qur'an conforms to modern science and imparts knowledge that was unknown during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

    Why not? Once we have established the concept of God, then any human is entitled to believe in God, his attributes and to call others to worship him without being neccessarily inspired by God. How can this be interpreted as 'miracle'?
    Because no other religion even comes close to the Islamic concept of perfect monotheism. While countless people have established the concept of God, the true set of beliefs with regards to Him can only be known through inspiration. This is why other religions have attributed many things to God that are unbefitting His Glory, and those claiming to be monotheistic have shown their claim to be false by the presence of paganism and idolatory. The beliefs in the Islamic creed distinctly stand out in their purity and appeal to human rationale. For example, Islamic gives a sense of integrity and honour for the prophets as recipients of divine revelation, yet this is denied by the Christians and Jews who ascribe crimes such as murder, incest and drunkenness to them - allegations which Islam vehemently denies.

    I think you will find many Muslims and non-muslims who disagree with this.
    Only because they are ignorant of it. If one examines the laws of Islam, from the laws governing personal hygiene, familial life and societal roles to financial transactions and political dealings, the perfection and benefit is apparent. Islam encourages marriage and prohibits incest, adultery and sexual indecency, as well as the cruel treatment of women. And all of this bearing in mind the society in pre-Islamic Arabia where women had no rights whatsoever, sexual licentiousness prevailed and prostitution in all its forms was rampant. There is no system of man-made laws that has remained unchanged or provided a perfect set of rules for the betterment of society.

    So do many books remain unchanged but that doesn't make them holy or miraculous, it is only a testament to the regard in which they are held and the language in which they are printed.
    No other religious book can claim to be anywhere near as authentic as the Qur'an. If one studies how it was preserved, this will become more and more apparent.

    How is this miraculous? It seems that you are using a different definition of 'miracle' than many of us.
    The miraculous nature of it becomes very much apparent when one studies this aspect, as with any other. For instance, despite the thousands of differences between the qira'aat, not a single difference is contradictory. Moerover, each one adds to the meaning and beauty of the Qur'an in a complementary manner. They also facilitated the memorisation of the Qur'an so that different Arab tribes were able to memorise it. There are many other things surrounding the ahruf and qira'aat that leave one in awe regarding the miraculous nature of the Qur'an.

    No other book claims to carry a reward of taking its memoriser and their family members to Paradise. It is well known that many parents encourage their children to memorise the Qur'an at a young age so that he can take them to Paradise.
    So if the Bible had a reward for memorising it, do you think it would be memorised like the Qur'an is?

    This is largely subjective - there are many books which I never tire of reading and which have a deep meaning to them, but this does not make them miraculous!
    Yet when you compare that to the level of depth that the Qur'an has, you will realise the vast difference. One only has to look at the volumes of exegesis on the Qur'an to appreciate this and just a little bit of study will open one's eyes to how deep and profound the Words of Allaah are. Meanings can be extracted from the smallest of things like the particular order of words in a sentence, or particular forms chosen over others, and the examples are endless. As for never tiring to read - just the opening chapter of the Qur'an is recited at least seventeen times a day by Muslims in prayer. The Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would complete the entire Qur'an in a week, and some less than this. Some scholars have been known to complete the Qur'an in just three days, and some even less than this. During the month of Ramadan the Qur'an is recited in its entirety by countless Muslims across the world. The attachment that believers have with the Qur'an is undescribable. I am sure you will agree that no other book has this level of sanctity in the hearts of its followers.

    And by the way, you didn't comment on aspects 9 and 13!

    Peace.

    P.S. The source I have used in compiling this post is as before: An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'an, Yasir Qadhi.
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?




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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    @ Eliphaz: You still have to provide references of poetry which is "superior to the Quran." Not only that, you just severed your own neck. You are comparing Quran with poetical works? Lol. Quran is neither poetry nor prose. Why, o why, you ignoramus, decided to compare Quran with Arabic poetical works and not with the works of prose? I say, bring the prose in too!

    You are so desperate to show something is superior than that and for doing so, you compare it with Arabic poetry. Not that Arabic poetry can supersede it, the attempt itself reeks of ignorance, frustration and arrogance. It is like comparing Shakespeare with T.S. Eliot. Quran is miracle in the nature that it carved a new genre in Arabic language. No one before wrote in this genre and no one after Quran was able to do so. That is one part of the miracle aside from literary superiority. While the poetry that you will bring, lol, it is poetry, and falls in the same genre and there is nothing miraculous about following tradition. Good luck.

    I wish I could sip from the tea cup which is boiling due to the rage in your head. Ill let it cool down a bit.
    Last edited by CosmicPathos; 12-12-2009 at 06:52 PM.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Thanks Muhammad and the rest..

    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?


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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eliphaz View Post
    So a non-Arabic speaking person has addressed the miraculous language and style of the Qur’an without actually having any knowledge of the Arabic language, let alone its structures or idioms? I find this not only hard to believe but worthy of a miracle in itself. It is more likely that you are talking of a revert who spent years studying Arabic, despite it not being their original tongue, before coming to this conclusion.
    without further study even, Br. M. from this forum is a geneticist, and doesn't speak Arabic all that well, yet arrived to the same conclusion that many native speakers do. He is one of thousands... You'll keep tweaking a point and it is still not working for you!


    ‘If you have doubts about the revelation We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a single sura like it - enlist whatever supporters you have other than God – if you truly think [that you can].’ The Cow, verse 23.
    1. This is not difficult, as there many attempts of people who have done this, and in fact many works of poetry superior to the Qur’an
    A book of poetry is a book of poetry, The Quran though written in such a style is meant as a guidance for all man-kind not to while away your summer night.. and no, no one has produced anything remotely close to it!
    2. This is impossible for any book, even with the Qur’an
    I have told you to refrain from making statements you can't back up. Indeed all I have listed is but a sliver of all that is contained in the Quran. Your failure to acknowledge that is more your problem really than anyone else!

    3. If the Qur’an covered all aspects of human life, there would be no need for ijtihad, ijma and qiyas, there would not be such disagreements over everything from drawing pictures to democracy.
    ijtihad isn't a new law, it is basing judgment as the world changes on Quranic standard.
    If you have contaminated water from cat feces, the commandment will always be that you not consume it until that well is clean.. back in the days, they had primitive methods, perhaps seeking to clean it by diluting it, or taking out 20 pails .. now a days, you can simply measure pollution (that is the role of ijtihad) not to give you new laws, but see how they are best implemented!



    I said most, not all. I was also not aware that Zhul Qarnayn (commonly thought to be Alexander the Great) or the People of the Cave were Prophets. But even if they were, consider Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Joseph, Solomon, Moses, Aaron and Jesus are all mentioned in the Old and New Testaments, that is, still more than two thirds of the Prophets mentioned in the Qur’an. The other stories, Hud/A’ad, Salih/Thamud, were, in my opinion, traditional stories well-known amongst at least some Arab and/or Assyrian people long before they were put into the Qur’an.
    If you are going to allege that one book copies from another then prove it?... show me who translated the OT/NY from Grecian/Hebrew and whispered them in a lyrical style over the span of decades so that verses ten years later and in a meccan revealed verse fits perfectly in syntax, style. lyricism into a medini sura..
    I don't need an opinion-- everyone has an opinion (it doesn't make them facts)..


    I feel it is necessary to generalise where there are many things in the book people call scientific but are not necessarily so, and to go into each one in detail would surely turn this into a debate on science, when it is clear to me that Muslims do not, or should not, rest their sole faith on the scientific merits of the Qur’an.
    The Quran is a book of signs not a book of science, however it helps, that when God describes his creation or anything else that it is done in an accurate fashion for those who reflect and isn't at odds with science!



    You are assuming that the default situation must be, for some reason, that there is a book somewhere sent from God. ‘Without a book how are we supposed to be guided, what is the purpose without such a book?’ Well I find that there are many non-Muslims living a decent, moralistic life without needing to follow any book, and in fact even Muslims believe that every soul has a fitrah or innate disposition, so it is clear that God has already guided us through instilling this within us and showing us His creation as inspiration for us.
    Abraham didn't need a book and neither did Jesus, nor Mohammed (PBUT) but they had something you lack.. if you are not a pioneer (in science) your bet in (science) is to learn from the research of scientists.. when you sign up for a physics course, you usually purchase a book and study it.. if you don't agree with content than challenge them, come up with your own theories, but if you want to become a physicist or anything else you'll have to go through academia and look at the text of those who preceded you..
    I don't particularly care if you lead a moral life or not.. how does this affect me or anyone else? What you do that is good is for your own being, it isn't a community effort! If you lead a moral life you'll be rewarded for it surely in this one.. religion is also concerned of the after life.. if the after life doesn't concern you then just lead your regular every day moral life..

    There is science outside of academia, and philosophy outside of religion.. but again, I see no point to your statement!



    But there comes a point where, if a law is sent down from God, it should be seen as somewhat intuitive to his creation on some level, whereas most Muslims I have met agree that the huddud punishments of shariah are no longer applicable in any situation. Considering that some of this comes out of the Qur’an, is it not strange that its message now seems so counter-intuitive to its followers, let alone its dis-believers?
    I am not familiar with Islamic jurisprudence (it isn't an area I can gauge) and that is a statement of honesty that I feel most of you are lacking, you speak on the Quran or hadith as if experts.. however, I solely and strictly believe in the way sharia3a is carried out or at least was carried out.. I need a simple look at any man made system to see how it completely fails the individual and society to conclude the further we go from divine law the more degenerate we become!



    The brother was referring to the ‘miraculous’ qualities of the Qur’an, and I was simply saying that ‘remaining unchanged’ does not infer miracle from God.
    If there is a promise to preserve it and such a promise is carried out through the centuries without tampering and alive in the hearts of people with every generation, then if anything I look at it as God fulfilling his promise.. those we can overtly witness and those yet to come!



    Yes this is what I was saying. The Qur’an is the only book which claims to give a reward for being recited in this way and offering Paradise to the one who memorises it in its original form, along with his family members. Therefore the preservation of the Qur’an is a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that parents, particularly in my culture, place more importance on having their children memorising the Qur’an from a young age than their actual understanding of it, as a kind of ‘afterlife insurance’.
    Those who are given wisdom are a handful.. it is better to learn the Quran and live by it then to merely memorize it, and surely that too was mentioned in the accolades listed of memorizing it.. I wish my parents had forced me to memorize the Quran, I can layer my understanding with instant recall, what takes me a month to accomplish I could have accomplished in three days as a child.. I don't see anything wrong with being rewarded of it in this life and the hereafter..

    surely that is why anyone does anything? some self-satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment-- why do you get a job or get married, or take out your trash? your ability to state something obvious is rather astounding!



    It is well known that the pagan Makkans had more than 300 gods which pilgrims added to over the years, and that one of them was in fact called Allah. He is not mentioned in the Qur'an as are al-Lat and al-Uzza although he did exist. He was said to have sons and daughters and to be the ‘creator-god’. This is well-known amongst many Muslims, and indeed is written in many Muslim accounts of the Prophet’s life. Where do you think the name of Muhammad's father, who was a pagan, Abdallah (slave of Allah) came from?
    I have already told you, that were two tribes of Christians and a few tribes of Jews-- as Abraham who built the house of Allah was a Monotheist ( the tradition carried out in Arabia) even if paganists imported gods or associated gods with Allah or made them of 3ajwa. It wasn't uncommon to use the name Abdu'Allah.. However, pagan gods didn't go by the name of Allah!

    Do you wish to try again?

    all the best
    Last edited by جوري; 12-12-2009 at 11:06 PM.
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?


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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?



    just a reminder:

    Sahih International
    Allah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah . That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide.
    Pickthall
    Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allah's reminder. Such is Allah's guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide.
    for some of the Mushrikeen and Zalimoon, we can prove NOTHING unless Allah wills it! take a day, week year or a century, it doesn't matter...

    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire
    http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad View Post
    Not only this, but not everything in the Qur'an can be found in the Bible.
    In addition to this, the details given in the Qur'an with regards to certain historical events sometimes contradict those given in the Bible, and historical evidence has shown the Qur'an to be more accurate.

    A couple of examples are elaborated upon by 'Abdur-Raheem Green in the following video:


    Media Tags are no longer supported


    This shows that Prophet Muhammad () did not plagiarise the Bible.
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?


    "I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."

    ~ 'Abdullāh bin al-Mubārak (rahimahullah)

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Greetings Hugo,

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    1. There are 13 claims here and the writer says there are more so is this like a chain in that suppose I or anyone can refute any of the above claims will that mean that the Qu'ran is then shown to be not of God?

    2. It is a principle well accepted in Science that a theory (let's call all 13 of the above theories) has to be falsifiable otherwise it cannot be regarded in anyway as scientific. Thus, it might sound odd but what we attempt to do in an almost brutal manner is to try to find something, some result that falsifies the theory - if you cannot work out how to do that unambiguously then we cannot show the theory to be true and we cannot show it to be false either. Another way of putting it as some have done is to re frame it into a question 'What does the theory imply which, if false, would show the whole theory to be false?'
    A truly scientific approach to the Qur'an is possible because the Qur'an offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand. Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, "If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not."

    ... This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false." Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do "This or this or this, " and thus it is still considered true and authentic. [...] A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and "prove it wrong" occurs in the 4th chapter. And quite honestly, I was surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states:

    "Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

    This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man's personality. One doesn't take an exam in school after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, "This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!". One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Qur'an approaches people. Another interesting attitude that exists in the Qur'an repeatedly deals with its advice to the reader. The Qur'an informs that reader about different facts and then gives the advice: "If you want to know more about this or that, or if you doubt what is said, then you should ask those who have knowledge." This too is a surprising attitude. It is not usual to have a book that comes from someone without training in geography, botany, biology, etc., who discusses these subjects and then advises the reader to ask men of knowledge if he doubts anything.

    The Qur'an is Amazing, Gary Miller
    Moreover, one of the conditions that scholars have given for an act to be considered a miracle (as performed by a prophet) is that it cannot be performed again by any person or object.

    And we find that Allaah (swt) Himself has challenged mankind to produce something like the Qur'an:

    And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave, then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah, if you are truthful. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers. [Al-Baqarah: 23-24]


    For more information about the challenge, please see: Understanding the Qur’an’s Literary Challenge: to “Bring Something Like It”

    Peace.
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?




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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad View Post
    This one is more detailed: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).


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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist View Post
    Well, my logic followed certain rules here. I dismissed the existence of Holy Ghost just because it is based on experience. Hence, I said that it does not exist. You used this argument to 'refute' one of the Muslimah who said that she just feels Quran is the word of God.
    I think you miss the point here. It is quite acceptable for you to dismiss the Holy Spirit based on your own experience. However, all you can do is argue from YOUR experience. Let me put it this way, your logic amounts to saying if I say "Bill is a boy, Bill is a bad boy therefore all boys are bad" - that is one cannot argue from the particular to the Universal. Indeed there is much more weight to the argument for the Holy Spirit as there are probably a billion people who would claim it in their life. Let me ask you, how does God interact with you, is he anywhere in your life?

    Now You said that just because I have not experienced the Holy Ghost, it does not mean that it does not exist. See, you are using two contradictory train of thoughts here? On one hand you completely shrug off the subjective experiential basis of proof. Fine, I agree. On the other hand you use the very same subjective experiential basis to tell me that Holy Ghost "might" exist even though I have not experienced it. I just have to say, wow. Muslim apologetic claims regarding "miracles" of Quran (I am in agreement with some of them while others are totally blown out of proportions) make much more sense than what you just said.
    I do not 'shrug' off experiential things in terms of proof but it is unreliable in term of making generalisations, it can explain how you feel but not much beyond that - that is the point I am making. There is nothing whatever wrong with saying the Holy Spirit might or might not exist and no contradiction - the argument is the same and based on experience but that will never amount to proof.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    Indeed.. replication is plagiarism.. Early Arabs who tried to imitate the style of the Quran to take the Quran challenge used a complete verse and substituted two words of a verse for something else, that doesn't equate to a new better Quran that is a guidance for man kind it equals to plagiarized Quran:
    Just to add to what you say, plagiarism can mean copying or paraphrasing, putting something in your own words or copying an idea with attribution. In most cases it is obvious when this is done and many universities say that if as little as 6 words are copied without attribution you guilty.

    I challenge you to show me where the Quran plagiarized your bible and the name of the person or persons who translated Grecian stories to the prophet in perfect queryshi tongue to rest on seven ahruf!
    Try looking at Yusuf and by any objective standard it largely copies the Biblical story found in Genesis.

    I don't think you can even comprehend the weightiness of what is requested of you here.. firstly you have never read the Quran nor recited it, nor listened to it to know of the lyricism and its profound effect on the believer.. I can't compare your Psalm of the lord being a sheep herder to even a poem of Antonio Machado which I believe far exceeds the bible in beauty!
    It's a pity you use arrogance instead of argument here but at least you acknowledge its in the end about opinion. What is sad perhaps is that for you nothing can exceed the Qu'ran but this is obviously false. Consider by way of illustration Thomas Hardly, in terms of English his work is perfect, faultless but that would mean nothing unless what he writes has meaning for me. To me when I find something that speaks to me its as if the hand of the author reaches out with this precious gift, a gift just for me. That is how Christians read the Bible, they want to feel that they hear God speak and when you hear God speak that has a profound affect. When I read what you have written and what other Muslim's have written it often sound as if you don't have the slightest interest in what is being said but only what it sounds like.

    I am not familiar with Marchado but if you find it exceeds the Bible (all of it?) then that is no more than an opinion and if I may say so a silly one. Let me give an example from Hardly called "The Dead Drummer" but only the first verse - do you understand what it is saying and can you find that thought in the Qu'ran - if not does that mean the Qu'ran has failed?

    They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
    Uncoffined--just as found:
    His landmark is a kopje-crest
    That breaks the veldt around;
    And foreign constellations west
    Each night above his mound.
    Also, you can't have an excerpt to represent your whole book.. I need every chapter to be unlike any other and be equally profound on all the criteria listed.. you need your bible to read collectively beautiful.. even the parts when Abraham marries his sister or Lut sleeps with his daughters and the psalms that you care not mention like this: "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4).
    Interesting, YOU have decided how God shall, must speak so you make God the measure of your own small mind. You it seems prefer beauty to truth, can you make sin beautiful: Abraham married his half sister is true, Lot slept with his daughters is true according to the Bible. The Psalms are not the same as the Song of Solomon and any one can see the verses is talking about the excitement and anticipation of seeing someone you love.

    frankly I find the tone of the bible downright misogynistic!
    You don't seem to know much about the Qu'ran or Muslim law and culture to say such a thing - why not try reading its for yourself.

    .. and in the end have it needs to sound like this: perhaps then can we have an object of comparison..
    What value will it be to compare how it sounds - what would it prove, as I have said before you do not seem to be interested in what it says do you? It is impossible to have an objective comparison because judgement is involved and that ultimately is am emotional not logical mechanism.

    by the way find me this sura in the bible too (suret ad-dukhan) which discusses one of the signs of the end of the world amongst other things!
    I assume you mean things falling from the sky or having no friends to call on? Well have a look at the Gospel of Matthew or Luke or the book of Revaluation and you will find plenty there top think over.

    The difference is in the criteria, and it has been listed for you all throughout here!
    This is the point that you continually fail to understand, you seem to believe that because you have criteria they MUST be right and unquestionably so and that is a laughably simplistic position to take. Can't you see that someone else could arrive at another set of criteria and hence prove something else? For example, I could say to support the Bible "the books must be from several authors" or "there must be a variety of styles" and so on. You would not agreed would you, and why should you so why are you so blind and ending in a fallacy that your criteria are the right one and indeed the only possible ones. You are conditioned to say 'yes' to anything that supports you believe.

    I actually find what you just described more in concert with how Christians live their lives and in order to deflect from their overt hypocrisies they'd rather project what they are unto Muslims.. (all praise Jesus) but you can't get them to live an ounce in his shoes.. the most I have seen done is an attendance of Christmas mass or easter sunday where even that is jaded by some commercial gift giving and Noruz (pagan) offering! by the way what is the point of this absurd exercise? How could you possible expect to discuss the Quran on a level with me or any Muslim?
    Here again we see you arrogance instead of argument.
    Last edited by Hugo; 12-13-2009 at 06:56 PM.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    Just to add to what you say, plagiarism can mean copying or paraphrasing, putting something in your own words or copying an idea with attribution. In most cases it is obvious when this is done and many universities say that if as little as 6 words are copied without attribution you guilty.
    Indeed, and as I have stated if you believe that the Quran has plagiarized the bible then prove it!
    1- Bring us names and dates of the person who translated Ot/NT stories to the prophet, added a few extra, and brought us signs of the end that unfold that completely differ than what is in your bible, from the lowest common denominator they unravel as described.

    or concede your surrender that the prophet couldn't have known of such things has they not been divinely revealed to him.. I really don't like the insinuations and the way I see it, you have two choices, either prove your point or accept the obvious!


    Try looking at Yusuf and by any objective standard it largely copies the Biblical story found in Genesis.
    See above reply!



    It's a pity you use arrogance instead of argument here but at least you acknowledge its in the end about opinion. What is sad perhaps is that for you nothing can exceed the Qu'ran but this is obviously false. Consider by way of illustration Thomas Hardly, in terms of English his work is perfect, faultless but that would mean nothing unless what he writes has meaning for me. To me when I find something that speaks to me its as if the hand of the author reaches out with this precious gift, a gift just for me. That is how Christians read the Bible, they want to feel that they hear God speak and when you hear God speak that has a profound affect. When I read what you have written and what other Muslim's have written it often sound as if you don't have the slightest interest in what is being said but only what it sounds like.
    I have spent three years of my life studying the bible, if a Machado poem in one reading did to me what three years of bible study couldn't, I wouldn't call it arrogance-- I simply have my blinders off- Have you studied the Quran in a formally Islamic setting or just heresy from folks not unlike yourself in motive and vision?
    The central theme of your religion is neither satisfactory to my heart or my mind.. It rather gives me a creepy feeling of paganism.. I can't compare it to a poem and you want me to compare it to another religion? by what value or means? There is nothing to compare... there is a self-immolating god who couldn't save himself, and yet you expect me to blindly accept that he'll eat my sins? It is counter intuitive!
    I am not familiar with Marchado but if you find it exceeds the Bible (all of it?) then that is no more than an opinion and if I may say so a silly one. Let me give an example from Hardly called "The Dead Drummer" but only the first verse - do you understand what it is saying and can you find that thought in the Qu'ran - if not does that mean the Qu'ran has failed?
    see above reply!



    Interesting, YOU have decided how God shall, must speak so you make God the measure of your own small mind. You it seems prefer beauty to truth, can you make sin beautiful: Abraham married his half sister is true, Lot slept with his daughters is true according to the Bible. The Psalms are not the same as the Song of Solomon and any one can see the verses is talking about the excitement and anticipation of seeing someone you love.
    How can there be truth in a self-immolating god who forsake himself? How can I accept that god who is most dear to himself, yet forsake himself to eat my sins? it is a simple lesson of logic.. I don't even need comparative study.. It crumbles on its own axis, there is no need for the subject of comparative religion even. I have already stated that the Quran goes beyond mere beauty of language and that it is in a list of its unfolding truths, it doesn't have contradictions and its central tenet agrees with the heart and the mind.. I can't accept a misogynistic book half written by a charlatan as truths for even if parts of it are, which parts are those? how do I decide which is good and which to discard? Why would god leave the world with a less than perfect message, after having died? and if god is so loving how can he cast aside those who do everything out of love for him in favor of those who know nothing of him, not even his real name?


    You don't seem to know much about the Qu'ran or Muslim law and culture to say such a thing - why not try reading its for yourself.
    Oh, how do you figure? I am curious as that seems to be more in concert with how you approach and address the Quran!

    What value will it be to compare how it sounds - what would it prove, as I have said before you do not seem to be interested in what it says do you? It is impossible to have an objective comparison because judgement is involved and that ultimately is am emotional not logical mechanism.
    This is a defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone me or others on board, the way I see it, you have described the bible here to a T, especially the emotionality and lack of logic.. I can't understand how in this day and age, anyone would accept that god annunciated himself to a woman before impregnating her with his person, to be born a suckler, to da*n the earth he allegedly created for trees that he should allegedly know for not bearing him fruit, to be inept at choosing disciples that will shoulder his message after he decided to fervently pray to himself, yet forsake himself the following day in spite of his pleading with himself, then appearing to his nemesis to throw more of the masses into confusion with abrogation of his formerly enforced commandments and yet believe that though he forsake his most precious self which is born of a woman to eat my sins thereafter (for me to enter heaven) for having believed in that fallacy.. and you want to speak of logic? If I don't agree with the central tenet, and everything thereafter is along these lines:

    "and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel" (II Sam 16:22). Afterwards, the poor concubines (there were ten of them!) got imprisoned for life (II Sam 20:3).
    "and after that thou shalt go in unto her" (Deut 21:13). There are many other places where the graphical phrase "go in" is used.

    "let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love" (Proverbs 5:19).
    "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4).
    "and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun" (II Sam 12:11).
    "and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake" (Matthew 19:12).
    Lot had sex with his two daughters. One might even conclude that he had God's help in this, as he was both very old and very drunk at the time. There was no punishment for any of them. On the contrary, both daughters were rewarded with sons who founded nations (Gen 19:33-38). Earlier (Gen 19:8), Lot had offered his daughters to be used by a mob. And Peter said that Lot was a "righteous man" (2Peter 2:8).
    A married man who has mistresses is not punished for adultery. Examples: Abraham (I Chron 1:32), Saul (II Sam 3:7), Gideon (Judges 8:31), Reheboam (II Chron 11:21), David (II Sam 5:13,20). But a woman who has sex outside of marriage is severely punished.
    "Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard of it" (Gen 35:22). No mention of any punishment.:
    When a man has sex with a slave girl (yes, slavery is OK), he isn't to be heavily punished, but the girl is (Leviticus 19:20).
    The penalty for sex with an animal is to be death not only for the man or woman, but for the poor beast as well (Leviticus 20:15,16).
    A woman who doesn't scream when she gets raped is to be stoned. (Deuteronomy 22:24).
    ******* children are to be punished, and their descendants, too. (Deuteronomy 23:2, Isaiah 14:21).
    King David had the hots for Bathsheba. So he had sex with her and then sent her husband off to die in battle. David's punishment, decreed by God, was that all his wives be publicly raped, and his newborn child would die! (II Samuel 11:2 - 12:14) (The men who did the raping presumably were not punished, since they were following God's orders.)
    There are many cases where a married man has mistresses and isn't punished for adultery: Abraham (I Chron 1:32), Reheboam (II Chron 11:21), Saul (II Sam 3:7), Gideon (Judges 8:31), David (II Samuel 5:13,20).
    God actually decrees fornication in Deut 28:30, where the punishment for a man's misdeed is that his fiance has sex with another man.
    Judah had sex with his daughter-in-law, who was pretending to be a *****. No punishment for either of them. (Genesis 38:13-26)
    A man may forcibly take a woman from enemy captives and make her his wife, after trying her out. (Deut 21:11-13)
    A man is supposed to have sex with his dead brother's widow. If he refuses, he gets publicly humiliated (Deut 25:5-9). Apparently it doesn't matter whether he is already married.
    When David was old and infirm, he was brought a young maiden so that he would "get heat" (I Kings 1:1-2). It didn't work.
    Ruth, a young widow, acts the harlot to nab a rich husband, as her mother-in-law Naomi instructs her to do (Ruth 3:3-4). The two women are portrayed as righteous.

    "that pisseth against the wall" (I Samuel 25:22, I Kings 14:10)
    "that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you" (II Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12)
    "And thou shalt eat it [as] barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight" (Ez 4:12).
    "Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith" (Ez 4:15).
    "Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces..."(Malachi 2:3).
    "and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ.."(Philipp 3:8).
    then I don't see how I can agree in part if the whole crumbles upon itself... half of those you don't enforce (and I don't know how much love of god there can be when you don't enforce his laws) and the other half is of pure illogical nonsense, and you want to come and tell me that I don't understand the Quran or that the Quran plagiarized that-- and question me of subjective opinion? Islam is the true religion of God, the one that has always been and the one that will always be, no matter how much you and other evangies hammer in otherwise!




    I assume you mean things falling from the sky or having no friends to call on? Well have a look at the Gospel of Matthew or Luke or the book of Revaluation and you will find plenty there top think over.
    See previous replies!



    This is the point that you continually fail to understand, you seem to believe that because you have criteria they MUST be right and unquestionably so and that is a laughably simplistic position to take. Can't you see that someone else could arrive at another set of criteria and hence prove something else? For example, I could say to support the Bible "the books must be from several authors" or "there must be a variety of styles" and so on. You would not agreed would you, and why should you so why are you so blind and ending in a fallacy that your criteria are the right one and indeed the only possible ones. You are conditioned to say 'yes' to anything that supports you believe.
    See previous replied and really have a sit down with yourself and question what your motive is writing in this section?

    is it to enforce your own beliefs to yourself the way I look at it, anyone who remotely spends the smallest amount of time with the bible will have to dismiss it as a book lacking orderly continuity with other monotheistic religions and disharmonious at best with its own self.. how you want to use that to evangelize is beyond me and all I can say is good luck with all that no true Muslim would ever go back to the dark ages of Christianity once they have walked aright!

    6:104 "How have come to you, from your Lord, proofs (to open your eyes): if any will see, it will be for (the good of) his own soul; if any will be blind, it will be to his own (harm): I am not (here) to watch over your doings."

    When you have an honest assessment with yourself, you'll react less when people present you with what they consider not only abominations in the bible, but true transgressions against the God of Abraham !

    Here again we see you arrogance instead of argument.
    I am yet to see a true argument from you as far as the Quran is concerned. I think you fear opening it and reading it and having a true objective comparison. So you drown us in quotes and proverbs and what you deem logical, even if your logic is completely askew from the general populations baseline, and fail at the same time to subject the book you hold on to to save your dear life to that same litmus test!


    All the best!
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?


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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad View Post
    When the most notable, masterful and genius, masters of the language, the famous poets of 'Arabia during the golden age of the language such as Waleed b. Mughirah and others, who were known and accepted to be the best of the best in poetry and eloquence themselves succumbed to the Qur'aan and they themselves admitted that they could never match the Qur'aan, why would anyone want to take (for the lack of a better word) 'criticisms' on the Qur'aan by people who probably don't even know the basic branches of the Arabic language, let alone any rules of the language?

    You can't blame them though for trying, even though it is a lame and sad attempt. Look at where they're coming from, they're coming from the standpoint of modern standard Arabic (that is, if they even know it in the first place!), which when compared to the Arabic of the time of the Qur'aan is but a simplified, water downed version of the language. If modern standard Arabic has 50 grammar rules, classical Arabic has 500+. The Qur'aan not only conformed to these grammar rules, it used them in a way that left the greatest masters of the language in awe - it became the apex, the crux and the standard of perfection in the language. It is an matched reference for anyone who studies the language. Any scholar of the language whose knowledge extends beyond modern Arabic and is aware at the very least of classical Arabic can tell you this. This is simple historical fact. It became and still is the reference on grammar, eloquence, and perfection in the language, even the Orientalists grudgingly admit to this, which is why they hardly ever tried to criticize the Qur'aan from this standpoint.

    So honestly, knowing this it's very hard to take anyone seriously when they ignorantly come and attempt to criticize the Qur'aan from the language. Let them study the language first, educate themselves on the 7 branches of the Arabic language, study the science of balaagha (eloquence), study pre-Arabic poetry and then come and say something about the Arabic of the Qur'an, we can take them seriously then.
    This is a fair post but but it is not moot to this thread.

    1. If the Qu'ran is a literary masterpiece and it may well be but that does not mean it is from God. If that were so then logically, any written work that let us say experts consider a masterpiece must be from God.

    2. I am not sure anyone has argued that the Qu'ran is not a literary work of merit but it cannot be the only one If you argument has weight then it applies everywhere - go and learn Hebrew or Greek and only then will we take the seriously with regard to criticism of the Bible.

    3. My understanding is that classical Arabic was not perfected until, the 9th centuary.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist View Post
    @ Eliphaz: You still have to provide references of poetry which is "superior to the Quran." Not only that, you just severed your own neck. You are comparing Quran with poetical works? Lol. Quran is neither poetry nor prose. Why, o why, you ignoramus, decided to compare Quran with Arabic poetical works and not with the works of prose? I say, bring the prose in too!

    You are so desperate to show something is superior than that and for doing so, you compare it with Arabic poetry. Not that Arabic poetry can supersede it, the attempt itself reeks of ignorance, frustration and arrogance. It is like comparing Shakespeare with T.S. Eliot. Quran is miracle in the nature that it carved a new genre in Arabic language. No one before wrote in this genre and no one after Quran was able to do so. That is one part of the miracle aside from literary superiority. While the poetry that you will bring, lol, it is poetry, and falls in the same genre and there is nothing miraculous about following tradition. Good luck.

    I wish I could sip from the tea cup which is boiling due to the rage in your head. Ill let it cool down a bit.
    I cannot entirely follow this line of argument because whether I regard say a bit of the Bible as superior to a bit of the Qu'ran is in the end subjective even if we agree on the same criteria we will not necessarily come to the same conclusions. You also seem to be making up the rules as you go along so now we have if anyone creates a new Genre it is by your definition a miracle.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    Indeed, and as I have stated if you believe that the Quran has plagiarized the bible then prove it!
    1- Bring us names and dates of the person who translated Ot/NT stories to the prophet, added a few extra, and brought us signs of the end that unfold that completely differ than what is in your bible, from the lowest common denominator they unravel as described.

    or concede your surrender that the prophet couldn't have known of such things has they not been divinely revealed to him.. I really don't like the insinuations and the way I see it, you have two choices, either prove your point or accept the obvious!
    It's a false dilemma, as you seem to have discounted other ways that the Prophet (pbuh) could have received information about what was in the Bible. Why could he not have obtained it through oral transmission, for example?

    I'm genuinely interested to find out what kind of thought process you're using here, so if you could spare the usual torrents of abuse it would be appreciated.

    Peace

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Prose & Poetry?
    What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Prose & Poetry?
    M S M Saifullah, cAbd ar-Rahman Robert Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem
    © Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
    Last Modified: 9th September 1999

    dummy - Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?
    Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
    The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevent or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur'an. This article is devoted to deal with one aspect of the Qur'anic challenge of produce a surah like it. What is meant by surah like it with respect to the Arabic prose and poetry?
    The verses of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):
    Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
    And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
    And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
    Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
    Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
    Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]
    cAbdur Rahim Green mentions that:
    These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!
    To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar viz; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic.[1]He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.[2]
    The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or sajc. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses.[3] One of the most famous speeches involving sajc is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.
    So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Indeed
    The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of sajc, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[4]
    It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar.[5] Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh:
    Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.
    It is a well known fact that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf (or seven forms) to facilitate greater understanding of it among the Arabs who had different dialects. This was also to challenge them on their own grounds to produce a surah like that of the Qur'an. The challenge became more obvious when none of the seven major tribes could imitate it even in their own dialects as no one could claim that it was difficult to imitate due to it not being in their own dialect.[6]
    What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
    E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:
    That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[7]
    The famous Arabist from University of Oxford, Hamilton Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:
    ...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[8]
    And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:
    Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[9]
    As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[10]
    On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:
    The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[11]
    As the Qur'an itself says:
    And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)
    Lastly, the beautiful style of the Qur'an is admired even by the Arab Christians:
    The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.[12]
    The above sentences speak of themselves. Summing up: Within the Arabic literature, either poetry or prose, there is nothing comparable to the Qur'an. Muslims throughout the centuries are united upon the its inimitability.
    There is also a talk by Christian missionaries that there are grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an. In retort, it can be mentioned that the Arab contemporaries of Muhammad(P) were most erudite and proficient in the idiosyncrasies of Arabic speech; and hence, if they had found any grammatical 'errors' in the Qur'an, they would have revealed it when Muhammad(P) challenged them with to do so. Therefore, since they did not take up his challenge on this issue, we can be rest assured that no such grammatical 'errors' exist in the Qur'an.
    Indeed the grammatical errors claimed by Christian missionaries have been already discussed and refuted in a reputed journal.[13] It turns out that lack of knowledge of intricate constructions in classical Arabic by Christian missionaries gave rise to so-called grammatical 'errors'.
    I'jaz al-Qur'an (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'an) & Its Exposition
    I'jaz literally means "the rendering incapable, powerless". It is the concept relating to the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. What consitutes this miracle is a subject that has engaged Muslims scholars for centuries. By the early part of the third century AH (ninth century CE), the word i'jaz had come to mean that quality of the Qur'an that rendered people incapable of imitating the book or any part; in content and form. By the latter part of that century, the word had become the technical term, and the numerous definitions applied to it after the tenth century have shown little divergence from the key concepts of the inimitability of the Qur'an and the inability of human beings to match it even challenged (tahiddi).[14]
    Thus, the Islamic doctrine of i'jaz al-Qur'an consists in the belief that the Qur'an is a miracle (mu'jizah) bestowed on Muhammad(P). Both terms, i'jaz and mu'jizah come from the same verbal root. While mu'jizah is the active principle of a'jaza, i'jaz is its verbal noun.[15]
    The early theological discussions on i'jaz introduced the hypothesis of sarfah ("turning away") and argued that the miracle consisted of God's turning the competent away from taking up the challenge of imitating the Qur'an. The implication of sarfah is that the Qur'an otherwise could be imitated. However, cAbd al-Jabbar (d. 1025 CE), the Mu'tazilite theologian rejected sarfah because of its obvious weaknesses.
    cAbd al-Jabbar rejects the doctrine of sarfah for two main reasons. Firstly, because it contradicts the verse of the Qur'an stating that neither jinn nor human can rival the Qur'an, and secondly because it makes a miracle of something other than the Qur'an, i.e., the sarfah, the prohibition from production, and not the Qur'an itself. In addition to this, according to 'Abd al-Jabbar, the doctrine of sarfah displays four major weaknesses:
      1. It ignores the well-known fact that the Arabs of Muhammad's time had acknowledged the superior quality of speech of the Qur'an;
      2. It is in direct conflict with the meaning of the verses of the Challenge;
      3. It implies that the Qur'an is not a miracle; and
      4. It asserts that the Arabs were out of their minds (khuruj 'an al-'aql).

    This doctrine, in fact, implies that they could have produced a rival to the Qur'an, but simply decided against doing so. It effectively calls into question either their motives or their sanity. Therefore, according to cAbd al-Jabbar the correct interpretation of sarfah is that the motives to rival the Qur'an disappeared (insarafah) because of the recognition of the impossibility of doing so.[16]
    cAbd al-Jabbar insisted on the unmatchable quality of the Qur'an's extra-ordinary eloquence and unique stylist perfection. In his work al-Mughni (The Sufficient Book), he argued that eloquence (fasahah) resulted from the excellence of both meaning and wording, and he explained that there were degrees of excellence depending on the manner in which words were chosen and arranged in any literary text, the Qur'an being the highest type.[17]
    al-Baqillani (d. 1013 CE), in his systematic and comprehensive study entitled I'jaz al-Qur'an upheld the rhetorically unsurpassable style of the Qur'an, but he did not consider this to be a necessary argument in the favour of the Qur'an's uniqueness and emphasized instead the content of revelation.
    The choice and arrangement of words, referred to as nazm was the focus of discussion by al-Jahiz, al-Sijistani (d. 928 CE), al-Bakhi (d. 933 CE) and Ibn al-Ikhshid (d. 937 CE). al-Rummani and his contemporary al-Khattabi (d. 998 CE) discussed the psychological effect of nazm of the Qur'an in their al-Nukat fi I'jaz al-Qur'an and Bayan I'jaz al-Qur'an, respectively.
    The author who best elaborated and systematized the theory of nazm in his analysis of the i'jaz is cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjani (d. 1078 CE) in his Dala'il al-I'jaz. His material was further organized by Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi (d. 1209) in his Nihayat al-I'jaz fi Dirayat al-I'jaz and put to practical purposes by al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144 CE) in his exegesis of the Qur'an entitled al-Kashasaf, rich in rhetorical analysis of the Qur'anic style.[18]
    Hardly anything new has been added by later authors.
    Is The Bible Inimitable?
    Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.
    As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'an versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states:
    In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.[19]
    Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible:
    The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....
    In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.[20]
    That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.
    And Allah knows best!




    __________________________________


    By Me:

    I have decided to simplify the challenge of the Quran, so you wouldn't have the excuse to posit that folks makeup rules as they go along when you you fail to acknowledge the shortcomings of your bible. It isn't one for the theologians which ironically is what you ask us to do on the previous page (to which I have given a very direct and simple reply) If a book claims to be from God, it has to do a few things with fluidity!
    1- speak to everyone from the simplest Bedouin to the most scientific mind!
    2- Not rectify itself or leave itself in such a state that theologians gather every few centuries to see which parts need to be thrown out to fit the tide.. God surely should know his creation from origin to conclusion.
    3- Be done in such a style that is easy to remember and useful in everyday life
    4- not be at odds with nature, especially the nature of man
    5- to be always of relevance of every aspect of man's life (that is what it means to have a Constitution, one that is both spiritual and appropriate for everyday life.
    6- The theme should be intuitive not counter intuitive.. To accept it, is to live it, not give lip service and then live a completely different life, one only needs to look at your TV evangies or even the priesthood to have a clear vision of just how counter-intuitive.
    7- Be in concert with what was revealed before it, if it claims to be from the same God!
    8- Bring comfort not simply for the aspect that one doesn't understand (the hereafter) but comfort and peace to ones daily life....


    to name a few...


    _______________________________________


    Not to address whether or not the Quran borrows from the bible:


    Is Quss Bin Sa'idah's 'Poetry' Meeting The Challenge Of The Qur'an?
    Is Quss Bin Sa'idah's 'Poetry' Meeting The Challenge Of The Qur'an?
    M S M Saifullah
    © Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
    Last Modified: 9th September 1999


    Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:
    A few years ago cAbdur Rahim Green debated on various issues of Qur'an with Joseph Smith. One of the issues was also the inimitability of the Qur'an which I think he answered reasonably well. This post was addressed to Jochen Katz too who is now shelling out cheap excuses that the challenge is irrelevent. The issue was discussed by cAbdur Rahim Green.
    For the sake of easy reference of the issues, I have divided the contents in the following manner:


    The Challenge Of The Qur'an
    The Qur'an in many places challenges the people to produce a surah like it. The ayahs of the Qur'an dealing with the challenge are given below (Hilali and Muhsin Khan's Translation):
    Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." [Qur'an 17:88]
    And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
    And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns,and all that exists).
    Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" [Qur'an 10:37-38]
    Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad(P)) forged it (the Qur'an)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!" [Qur'an 11:13]
    Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]
    cAbdur Rahim Green mentions that:
    These are the sixteen al-Bihar (literally "The Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook. Now I think at least the Christian's "Holy spirit" that makes you talk in tongues, part of your "Tri-Unity" of God should be able to inspire one of you with that!
    The pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad(P) for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. Interestingly enough, these old arguments are recycled again and again by the people even today! The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Qur'an could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. Poetry in Arabic falls into sixteen different al-Bihar as mention above and other than that they have the speech of soothsayers, rhyming prose, and normal speech. The Qur'an's form did not fit into any of these categories. It was this that made the Qur'an inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraish:
    Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.
    Of course, when challenged to produce something of the sort present in the Qur'an, the obvious reaction of the Christian missionary is to shell out cheap excuses.
    As we have seen before the Christian's "Holy Spirit" did not tell them that the Surah al-Waliya and Surah an-Nurayn were forgeries. Neither we expect from them any solid answer when asked about the Arabic poetry itself.
    On 4 Oct 1997, Jochen Katz wrote:
    > I asked you which bihar it is, and you couldn't answer. You then
    > continued to waffle about many things, but you were not able to identify
    > it as poetry. So, if it is not poetry, then it is not Jahiliyya poetry
    > either. It is from before Islam, but it is not poetry and your attack
    > falls flat on its nose.
    When this post came in I was still busy with gathering the references which are quoted in the Christian missionary's page as well as gaining knowledge about the Arabic poetry from a learned Muslim brother who happened to be there on a holiday in Cambridge (May Allah, The Most High, reward him for his patience and help). The reference which I could catch hold of was Shucara' al-Nasraniyah (The Christian Poets) by Louis Cheikho, published from Beirut (Lebanon) in 1890-1891. The other reference is not available in the University of Cambridge library. This book was re-published in two volumes by Dar al-Mashriq, Beirut in 1968 as

    1. Shucara' al-Nasraniyah, Vol. 1: Qabla al-IslamandVol. 2: Bacda al-Islam

    to make a division between the poets who came before Islam and the poets who came after Islam, respectively. Louis Cheikho was a Jesuit priest in the city of Beirut who was responsible for collecting a lot of poetry from pre-Islamic as well as post-Islamic times and labelling all the poets as Christians. His work has been critically reviewed which I will be discussing later in this post, inshallah.
    Quss bin Sa'idah's Works and Jahiliyyah Poetry
    Being experienced in dealing with Christian missionaries for quite some time in their deception when it comes to the references which they quote, I decided to start off from the sources which they quote. From the above reference [1] we see that in the chapter "Shucara Najad wa al-Hijaz" (Poets of Najd and the Hijaz) the poetry of Quss bin Sa'idah al-Iyad has been placed.[1] After the brief introduction of the lineage of the poet Quss bin Sa'idah, his poetry is discussed. In the beginning of each poem, the type of poem (i.e., the Bihar) is also quoted. This is done through out the book. Let me start off with the poems one of one. [The Bihar is in the square brackets]
    Poem 1 [From al-Khafif] : "haja lilQalbi....... ..... wa uutibaar"[2]
    Poem 2 [From al-Kamil] : "fid-dhahibina...... .... al-qawmi saa'eer"[3]
    Poem 3 [From al-Bassit] : "baanaaiyal mauti...... .... manhajul khalaq"[4]
    Poem 4 [From at-Tawil] : "khalilay...... .... in bakaakum"[5]
    Poem 5 [From al-Kamil] : "man'al baqaa'...... .... fin-nafsi"[6]
    Poem 6 [From al-Bassit] : "alhamdulillahi...... .... abath"[7]
    Poem 7 [From al-Muttakarib] : "wa yakhlufu...... .... awwalu"[8]
    Poem 8 [From al-Kamil] : "khad kuntu...... .... arwaahi"[9]
    Poem 9 [From al-Khafif] : "kullu yahma'...... .... irkhaala"[10]
    We see that the above mentioned poems fall in to the 'Bihar' which are quoted by cAbdur Rahim Green. For a quick recapitulation, the sixteen al-Bihar are
    at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.
    The conclusion here is very obvious. The poetry of Quss bin Sai'ada does not come anywhere near the Qur'an.
    And all this by the way, is from the sources which is quoted in Jochen's homepage. The source itself gives the answer which Jochen has asked for!! This not only shows Jochen does not even read his own sources but also hides the information given in them. It has been a routine habit of Christian missionaries to do such a thing.
    Now let us go into the second part, i.e., what Jochen has stuck into his homepage. It says "A verse by Quss bin Sa'idah". To start with: The material quoted is not a verse, it is a prose which is called Sajc. The level of knowledge of Jochen Katz in Arabic literature is very obvious here. Need I say: Is it worth casting pearls before the swine? But anyway, let us go further and expose the case. The prose quoted is present just before the starting of Poem 2 as discussed above.[11] The quotation is only partial not even one fourth of what is there in the whole of the prose!!
    To deal with what is there in Jochen's page requires a bit of understanding of Sajc which in english is loosely translated as "rhymed prose". According to Goldhizer, Sajc is the oldest form of speech in Arabic, pre-dating Rajaz and the Qasidah. For the terms used here, let me just briefly summarize them:
    A Rajaz metre is a far more regular form of rhythmic expression that Sajc.[12]
    The Qasidah ('ode' in English) is a supreme form of Arabic eloquence, consisted of three sections, each leading into the next following it. Description (Wasf) and aphorism or wise sayings (hikmah) are among the main purposes of Qasidah.[13]
    A quick reminder: when we have a end word rhyme in the poetry it is called Khaafiyah.
    From pre-Islamic times until this century, Sajc has continuously occupied an important place in Arabic literature and in Arab society. It has been used in the sayings of pre-Islamic kuhhan, in sermons and prayers, proverbs and aphorisms, epistles, maqamat, biographies, and histories. From the tenth until the twentieth century, book titles were almost invariably written in Sajc. Introductions to works of many genres were often written entirely in Sajc. In short, Sajc constitutes an extremely important feature in Arabic writing, including both elite and popular literature. For more information on various other types of poetry one can see this reference.[14]
    The transliteration given below deals with the prose which is only partially quoted in Katz's homepage (which is towards the end). This was the speech of Quss bin Sa'idah which he gave in the market of Ukaz. He uses Sajc in his speech where the sentences rhyme with each other (at least every couple of them and not necessarily all). I have arranged all the like sounding prose together for the quick identification of Sajc. Please enjoy the transliteration of the Arabic (which may be a bit improper because of Arabic sounds!! but I have tried as much as possible to faithfully reproduce it):
    fa-khala hayna khataba faatanab
    wa raggaba wa rahhab

    wa haddara wa andhar
    wa khala fi khutbathi:
    ayyuhan-naasu ismawo wa oowa
    wa idha wa aytum fantafiooa

    innahu man aasha maat
    wa man maata faat
    wa kullu ma huwa aatin aat
    matur wa nabaat
    wa arzaaq wa 'akhwaat
    wa aaba' wa ummahat
    wa ahya' wa amwaat
    wa jam' wa shataat
    wa aayat ba'd aayat

    laylun maudu'
    wa sakhafan marfu'

    wa nujumun tagur
    wa 'araadin tamur

    wa bahurun tamuz
    wa tizaratun taruz

    wa dhu-un wa dhalaam
    wa birrun wa aatham

    wa mata'mun wa mashrab
    wa malbasun wa markab

    a'la anna a'blagal ajaat
    as-sayru fil falawaat
    wan-najar ila mahalli al-amwaat

    inna fis-sama'i lakhabaran
    wa inna fil ardhi la-ibran

    laylun daaj
    wa samaaun dhati abraaj
    wa 'ardun dhati ritaaj
    wa biharun dhati amwaaj

    maali 'ara' an-nasi yadh-habuna falaa yarzi-oon
    'ara dhawaa bil maqaami faaqaamu
    am turikawa hunaka fanamu

    'aqsama qussu billahi qasman haqqan
    laa aathiman fihi walaa haanithan

    inna lillahi deenan huwa ahabbu ilayhi min deenakum al-ladhi antum alaihi
    thumma khala: tabban laari baabal ghaflati

    minal-umami al-khaliyah
    wa al-khurunil maadhiyah

    ya ma'shar 'iyaad
    aynal aba' wa al-ajdaad
    wa ayna al-mareed wa al-awwaad
    wa ayna al-firaa-inah ash-shidaad

    ayna min bana wa shay-yada wa zakhrafu wa nazzad
    wa garrahal maal wal-walad

    ayna min baga wa taga
    wa jama' fa 'awa
    wa khala 'ana rabbukum al-'ala
    'alam yakunu akthara minkum amwaala
    wa atula minkum aajala

    tahnahumul thari bi kalkalihi
    wa mazzakhakum bita-taawili

    fatilka adhamahum baaliyah
    wa buyutuhum khawiyah
    ammarat-ha adh-dhi'ab al-awiyah

    kalla bal huwa ma'bud
    thumma ansha' yakhulu [15]
    and then he goes to the Poem 2 which we have already discussed.
    Coming back to the business. The use of Sajc is common when delivering a sermon or lecturing because it attracts the attention of the listener. Sajc is not a form of poetry that has to be remembered. It is a rhymed prose. So the challenge is to produce in Arabic, three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen Bihar, that is not rhyming prose (i.e., Sajc), nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.
    The Qur'an is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of Saj', and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.[16][[2], pp. 34]
    It is anybody's guess whether Quss bin Sa'idah's Sajc can be of any comparision to the Qur'an. A bit of research needs to be done in the regularity of the metre of Sajc in the above mentioned prose of Quss bin Sa'idah to know how good is the composition. This is definitely a homework for me. And reminding what the Qur'an says:
    And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (Qur'an 2:23-24)
    It is a well known fact that the Qur'an is neither poetry nor prose. In the article Rhetorical Interpretation Of The Qur'an: Ijaz And Related Topics, Issa J Boullata deals with the modern writers who dealt the Qur'an from a literary point of view. One such work of A'isha cAbd al-Rahman who goes by the pseudonym of Bint Shacti has received a lot of attention. It is said that her work will provide new insights on the concept of I'jaz of the Qur'an. Issa Boullata says:
    Her conclusion is that the Qur'an, being neither prose nor verse, is a literary genre of its own that is of the highest eloquence and of matchless stylistic perfection.[17]
    A better insight of the language of the Qur'an can be seen by the people who translated it. Going back to the last century, the Cambridge scholar Edward Henry Palmer was asked by Max Mueller who was planning his monumental series of "Sacred Books of East" for Oxford University Press, to contribute to a new translation of the Qur'an. Arberry says:
    Palmer, who was an astonishingly versatile and rapid worker, readily accepted; his translation, in two volumes, was published in 1880, two years before its author was murdered in the Egyptian desert. Palmer, a poor orphan who was thought in his teens to be dying of consumption, had remarkable gifts as a translator, especially of poetry into verse; his complete rendering of the collected poems of the Egyptian Baha al-Din Zuhair testifies amply to his accomplishments, and his translation of the Koran was equally remarkable.[18]
    E H Palmer, as early as 1880, recognized the unique style of the Qur'an. But he seem to have been wavering between two thoughts. He writes in the Introduction to his translation of the Qur'an:
    That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence.[19]
    The famous Arabist H A R Gibb was open upon about the style of the Qur'an. In his words:
    ...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.[20]
    And in some other place, talking about the Prophet(P) and the Qur'an, he states:
    Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.[21]
    As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style.[22]
    .... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.[23]
    On the influence of the Qur'an on Arabic literature Gibb says:
    The influence of the Koran on the development of Arabic Literature has been incalculable, and exerted in many directions. Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. Its specific linguistic features were not emulated, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society.[24]
    Before I go any further, a word of caution: Anyone trying to use the reference [1] which consists of pre-Islamic as well as post-Islamic poetry to challenge the Qur'an should be warned that all the poetry quoted in that book falls within the 16 al-Bihar mentioned above. I have personally checked all the poetry quoted in that book to make sure of it.
    The Spin-Offs: Is The Qur'an Borrowed From The Bible?
    Louis Cheikho's aim for collecting the poetry was to show that the Qur'an had the origins from jahiliyyah poetry. But what is remarkable is that the poetry which he collected resulted in the opposite conclusion!!
    At the beginning of this century, the Jesuit fathers of Beirut did extensive research on this (the Christian influence in jahiliyyah) subject order to determine the role of "Christian Poets of Jahiliyya". The research resulted only in a literary composition, which has had the remarkable and unexpected result of proving the contrary of what the authors intended. Neither in pre-Islamic Mecca nor in its surrounding area, was there any record of a monotheistic cultural centre which could have disseminated the Biblical thought that we find expressed in the Holy Qur'an.[25]
    An observation from the point of view of Islamic traditions had been made by Richard Bell quite a long time ago. He says:
    ...in spite of traditions to the effect that the picture of Jesus was found on one of the pillars of Ka'aba, there is no good evidence of any seats of Christianity in the Hijaz or in the near neighbourhood of Makkah or even of Madina.[26]
    And the Christian missionaries to this date say that Muhammad(P)borrowed the Qur'an from the Judeo-Christian sources!! The evidence that we have point against their views. But they will still be parroting the same story again and again.
    This is also mentioned in the books dealing with Christianity among Arabs in pre-Islamic times from the point of view of poets.
    The testimony of poets to the influence of Christianity in a spiritual and a sociological sense is negative.[27]
    Louis Cheikho work has come under a lot of criticism because he has labelled all the jahiliyyah poets as Christians. His book is surprisingly devoid of references. Camille has reviewed his work and found that the following:[28]
    Certaintly Christian 1 Probably Christian 2 Less probably Christian 2 No evidence that Christian 20

    Dr. Christopher Heger has informed us in a post dated 02/09/1997 that Camille also published a book in 1970 called Al-Ab Luwis Shaiho wa Shucara' an-Nasraniyah fi l-Jahiliyyah, 1970, Camille Hechaime (Kamil Hushaima), Dar al-Mashriq (Beirut),pp. 298-322, where he again distributes the 61 poets into four categories:
    Certaintly Christian 7 Probably Christian 5 Less probably Christian 8 No evidence that Christian 41

    Unfortunately, this reference is not available in my library.
    Now it is interesting to see what the Christian missionaries who read the Qur'an say about the book itself. St. Claire Tisdall states that:
    From the careful examination of the whole subject dealt with in this chapter (i.e., The Influence Of Christianity & Christian Apocryphal Books) we therefore conclude that the influence of true and genuine Christian teaching upon the Qur'an and upon Islam in general has been very slight indeed, while on the other hand aprocryphal traditions and in certain respects heretical doctrines have a claim to be considered as forming one of the original sources of Muhammadan faith.[29]
    Regarding one of the apocryphal books he states:
    The style of the Arabic of this apocryphal Gospel, (Gospel of The Infancy) however, is so bad that it is hardly possible to believe that it dates from Muhammad's time.[30]
    He does not prove the existence of other aprocryphal sources of the Bible in Arabic either. St. Claire Tisdall book, The Original Sources Of The Qur'an, once upon a time hailed as one of the most original work on the sources of Islam, is now considered as one of most speculative work on Islam. The reason why it is so is because the author assumes that the Prophet(P) knew all the sources before he could compile the Qur'an. The sources being Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Hanif and ancient Arab beliefs. This directly contradicts from the evidence that we have of what the Prophet(P) was. He was considered to be ummi, i.e., illiterate. This is the reason why it is not quoted by the scholars today, except of course, Christian missionaries who still believe in living in the past.
    Now we turn to the fact whether an Arabic Bible was present in the hands of the people during the time of the Prophet(P). Malik Ben Nabi narrates an interesting story:
    Moreover, if Judeo-Christian thought had really made inroads into Jahiliyyan society and culture, the absence of an Arabic translation of the Bible could not be explained. As for the New Testament, it is certain that no Arabic translation of it existed in the fourth century of Hijrah. This is evident from the reference by Ghazzali, who had to resort to a Coptic manuscript to write his Rad, a respectable refutation of the divinity of Jesus according to the Gospel. In translating the work of the Arab philosopher, Rev. Fr. Chidiac searched everywhere for Gospel sources which could have served at the time of the composition of Rad. He finally found a manuscript in the library of Leningrad written about 1060 by a certain Ibn al-Assal as the first edition of a Christian text in Arabic. Thus, there did not exist an Arabic edition of the Gospels at the time of Ghazzali, and, a fortiori, it did not exist during the Pre-Islamic period.[31]
    So, the influence of Christian Jahiliyyah poets as well as lack of presence of the Bible suggests that the Qur'an is not borrowed from the Bible. A Critical Review of the Authorship theories of the Qur'an by Hamza Mustafa Njozi (Version 2.1 edited by Dawah to The People) can be seen here.
    This is probably the most well researched work on this topic that I have come across on the internet.
    Lastly, if the Qur'an was borrowed from the Bible then why would the Christian Arabs admire the style of a copied book?
    The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.[32]
    And Allah knows best!
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html


    All the best
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad View Post
    A truly scientific approach to the Qur'an is possible because the Qur'an offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand. Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, "If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not."
    This is not entirely true because always we have to include the concept of God and revelation and that is outside science. We can of course talk about it grammar which has rules or lyricism which is in the ear of the listener but that is all.

    This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false." Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do "This or this or this, " and thus it is still considered true and authentic. [...] A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and "prove it wrong" occurs in the 4th chapter. And quite honestly, I was surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states:

    "Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
    But logically this MUST mean that any book without a discrepancy must be from Allah? Here we have what is called 'proof by definition' and if one allows that then I can prove almost anything about anything.

    And yet this is the way the Qur'an approaches people. Another interesting attitude that exists in the Qur'an repeatedly deals with its advice to the reader. The Qur'an informs that reader about different facts and then gives the advice: "If you want to know more about this or that, or if you doubt what is said, then you should ask those who have knowledge." This too is a surprising attitude. It is not usual to have a book that comes from someone without training in geography, botany, biology, etc., who discusses these subjects and then advises the reader to ask men of knowledge if he doubts anything.
    But any book worth its salt will give references so that one can if you wish check it out or go for a deeper understanding so its not a surprising attitude and Dr Miller is seeing a miracle at every twist and turn

    Moreover, one of the conditions that scholars have given for an act to be considered a miracle (as performed by a prophet) is that it cannot be performed again by any person or object.
    But again this is just a definition, no more than a definition. It might be a reasonable one it might not no one can say with certainty

    And we find that Allaah (swt) Himself has challenged mankind to produce something like the Qur'an:
    Here we see the central dilemma and Miller's circular argument that is in my view destroyed by a line from Socrates: Is what is holy holy because the gods approve it, or do they approve it because it is holy.
    Last edited by Hugo; 12-13-2009 at 08:13 PM.

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    Re: Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,


    It's a false dilemma, as you seem to have discounted other ways that the Prophet (pbuh) could have received information about what was in the Bible. Why could he not have obtained it through oral transmission, for example?

    I'm genuinely interested to find out what kind of thought process you're using here, so if you could spare the usual torrents of abuse it would be appreciated.

    Peace
    It isn't a mathematical formula czgibson. Everything of Islamic history is recorded to a T and there is no room for guesswork, if there were an oral transmission from a christian or a Jew then go ahead bring us his name and the dates, as well who translated the Grecian or Hebrew text to the prophet keeping in mind that (Johann Gutenberg) printing press wasn't available until the 1400's and have it be done in the unquestionable lyrical style of the Quran which so differs tremendously from the language of the hadith. that no Arab or none Arab was able to reproduce it (see above long post on the matter) that is one!
    2- reconcile it with purpose, in other words establish motive to bring a text that will cause considerable ire to both groups and serious misfortune to the prophet, we all know that he died poor with his armor pawned to a Jew.
    3- tell when he had the time to weave this into a text in which parts of the same sura were revealed decades apart, for instance the last verse belongs to the fifth chapter:
    "This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as your religion Islam." (Quran, Surah [5:3])

    And obviously flows with it in syntax, style etc.. how would he know where to classify a verse revealed without computerized equipments for even today I challenge anyone to write (for argument' sake) a poem and have a different perfectly fitting line to flow with it ten or twenty years later, without having to tweak it for fluidity!
    and have it be in concert with the law of :
    laws behind combinatorics, the probability of a word occurring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilities increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.

    Prove that the Qur'an IS the word of God

    4- whether you wish to believe it or not (the contents of the Quran that describe for instance the creation of man, differ tremendously from the Jewish account)
    5- There are also accounts of folks of old who were destroyed which the prophet was taunted for (as made up) and were in fact a recent find (such as the city of Ubar)
    6- Combine that with establishing laws to govern politically, economically, as well cover, inheritance, warfare, everyday living, have them fulfill themselves as the centuries unravel as such has never been accomplished before.. charging forth on a whim to bring down empires (such as the persian empire) in a total of nineteen days or less has to come with some conviction as it happened on the hands of one who set out to kill the prophet (a little understanding of history apart from theology) might help in this regard, since I don't speak of why I believe God granted them victory, but why they would charge forth all together with works plagiarized to accomplish what wasn't accomplished from that, that was allegedly plagiarized of
    7- account as well for the numerical miracles of it for instance:


    Al-Hayat (Life)
    145
    Al-Maout (Death)
    145
    Al-Mala'ikah (Angles)
    88
    Al-Shayateen (Satan)
    88
    Al-Rajul (Man)
    24
    Al-Mar'ha (Woman)
    24
    Al-Salihat (Righteous deeds)
    167
    Al-Sayi'at (Evil deeds)
    167
    Al-Dunya (This World)
    115
    Al-Akhira (The Hereafter)
    115
    Al-Yisr (Facility, Relief)
    36
    Al-'Usr (Difficulty)
    12
    Al-Abraar (The Righteous)
    6
    Al-Fujjaar (The Wicked)
    3
    Al-Jahr (Saying Aloud)
    16
    Al-'Alaniyah (in public)
    16

    and again do it without having to tweak it (see above on combinatorics) even if someone is whispering it to you, and then come ask me of how I figure the impossibility of what you or he suggests...

    The way I see it, is if you have a 'number of ways' to go about then prove them! the above is how I prove you false in a hurry if you know of otherwise then by all means share it..
    BTW, I haven't been abusive to you-- you are very reactive!

    all the best
    Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Is it possible to Prove the Qu'ran is the very Words of God?



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