Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?
Why do some women wear the burka?
Do you agree with the Burka?
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one?
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?
Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith? Niqab is mentioned in the hadith
Why do some women wear the burka? Some are forced but choose to wear it.
Do you agree with the Burka? Yes I do. I think all woment should have choise to wear it.
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it? Same a above.
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one? N/A
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing? Both.
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available? Kinder. Some women don't wear hijab properly and it depends on where you live if it is excepteble or not to wear it, like where I live.
O Allah, I seek help from you. I seek your forgiveness. I seek your guidance. I believe in you.
...That was one of the first questions of the thread, so you needn't be surprised.
not that it is important or I care about but show me that question in your first post if you are not a liar
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
The Five Pillars are generally accepted by scholars to be the tenets of the Islamic faith. Even though the Quran does not introduce them as five pillars, it does reference each one.
Don't want to go into details in this point but we are not talking about whether they are referenced in the Qur'an or whether scholars accept it. It was a grave error on your part for making a distinction between two topics by saying that one is integral part of Islam and other is not.
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
It isn't really subjective. A bikini is revealing. There's no subjectivity in that. A Burka is concealing. There is no subjectivity in that.
huh? You said that a certain space (of body) should be covered and I am asking you 2 simple questions: 1) how much and 2) who decides it?
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
You still don't get it, do you?
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the burqa in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?
you are very slow and master at ignoring the key points, aren't you? You stated/implied, one way or the other, that burka (generlally speaking Islamic dress code for women) is sexist. Yet, when it was asked how and why, you run around with same flawed claims. Before we go into rational of wearing burka, we need to decide who we are going to follow in regard to acceptable dress code. I have asked you at least 4-5 times already so why can't you answer a simple question? Moreover, what is the rational for wearing any clothes at all? What is the rationale for Marry (peace be upon her) to cover herself by dressing modestly? Was she also wearing sexist clothing and coming out as a sex object? How many of your women address like her? Lastly, the laws of the Creator are not based upon human rationale. As a Christian you should at least now this and abide by it.
Finally, rationale of Islamic dress code is to follow the command of the Lord and to be shy and dress modestly. Unlike you people, we operate on methodology of the Prophets, following the commands of the Creator, which extends to blocking any means to any evil.
To be blunt, to a man, a woman's body is one of things to fulfill physical pleasure. Hence, one of things he seeks in her or thoughts he has about her is her physical body. You wanna label this is considering women as sex object, be my guest but we are not extreme like you.
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
It's not either/or. It's not 'either wear a Burka or be raped'. Nobody deserves to get raped, period. A person's morality dictates whether or not they're going to rape someone, not whether or not the victim is wearing a Burka. Do you honestly think rapists in prison would have given their crimes a second thought if their victims were wearing less revealing clothing (if they were wearing revealing clothing in the first place?)
Are you sure you are reading the same thing? Who is talking about rape and its link with Islamic dress code?
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.
poor analogy and poor understanding of that analogy? The point of analogy is that you will protect something precious to you by any means and remove any vulnerability and not expose it to danger and make it more vulnerable. To a man, women of his household are his honour. Hence, to defend his honour and protect his household, he will protect women of his household by guarding them by any means from evil desires of other men. And not provide envirment for them which will put them in danger or allow other men to enjoy them by any means. Would you want your wife/daughter/mother to go outside in clothes which would let other men enjoy their beauty?
عن تميم بن أوس الداري أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: قال الدين النصيحة ثلاثا قلنا لمن يا رسول الله قال لله ولكتابه ولرسوله ولأئمة المسلمين وعامتهم - رواه مسلم
poor analogy and poor understanding of that analogy? The point of analogy is that you will protect something precious to you by any means and remove any vulnerability and not expose it to danger and make it more vulnerable. To a man, women of his household are his honour. Hence, to defend his honour and protect his household, he will protect women of his household by guarding them by any means from evil desires of other men. And not provide envirment for them which will put them in danger or allow other men to enjoy them by any means. Would you want your wife/daughter/mother to go outside in clothes which would let other men enjoy their beauty?
To interject, I think you ought to have taken into account that a piece of gold has no will whatsoever. I am going to poke a couple of holes in your analogy: 1) when you compare a piece of gold with a woman then you are sort of implying that women are objects to be safeguarded; do you objectify women? It seems so. 2) If we extend your analogy, we could argue that I should keep my wife locked in my house away from everyone else because I don't want anyone to enjoy her beauty. The obvious problem with that is we seem to think women should have the right to some freedom outside the house. To make your analogy work you'd have to admit that locking women in the house 'protected' from the rest of the world is something good. If you do bite the bullet and admit that locking women away is something praiseworthy then you've pretty much conceded sexism in that you think men should have more freedom than women.
A question comes to mind that I don't think has been brought up earlier in this thread: do the people on this board who support niqab/burka/hijab think men should wear hijab/burka if they are in the presence of Gay men?
To interject, I think you ought to have taken into account that a piece of gold has no will whatsoever. I am going to poke a couple of holes in your analogy: 1) when you compare a piece of gold with a woman then you are sort of implying that women are objects to be safeguarded; do you objectify women? It seems so. 2) If we extend your analogy, we could argue that I should keep my wife locked in my house away from everyone else because I don't want anyone to enjoy her beauty. The obvious problem with that is we seem to think women should have the right to some freedom outside the house. To make your analogy work you'd have to admit that locking women in the house 'protected' from the rest of the world is something good. If you do bite the bullet and admit that locking women away is something praiseworthy then you've pretty much conceded sexism in that you think men should have more freedom than women.
A question comes to mind that I don't think has been brought up earlier in this thread: do the people on this board who support niqab/burka/hijab think men should wear hijab/burka if they are in the presence of Gay men?
poor analogy. Gay men ought not to exist. Women ought to exist. You cannot compare both types of biological sex and gender identity.
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
poor analogy. Gay men ought not to exist. Women ought to exist. You cannot compare both types of biological sex and gender identity.
Oh I know that. I just think it would be interesting to comparison if anyone studied it. If it is even study-able. I mean in response to the idea that men are more visual creatures when it comes to sex which seems to be the case and one of the reasons why Muslims support Hijab. Curious thing when applied to homosexuals.
To interject, I think you ought to have taken into account that a piece of gold has no will whatsoever. I am going to poke a couple of holes in your analogy: 1) when you compare a piece of gold with a woman then you are sort of implying that women are objects to be safeguarded; do you objectify women? It seems so.
First, it was never my analogy to begin with despite the fact I agree with it and I was simply pointing out the same errors which you just made. Secondly, blame yourself for your poor understanding of meaning and implication of an analogy. Who is comparing gold with women? Do you even know what is the purpose of an analogy?
Are you saying that when we say, as men, we need to protect our women folks implies that we are treating them as non-living objects? Do you objectify your child when you safeguard him/her? This is an astonishing conclusion which only comes from you kuffaar.
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
2) If we extend your analogy, we could argue that I should keep my wife locked in my house away from everyone else because I don't want anyone to enjoy her beauty. The obvious problem with that is we seem to think women should have the right to some freedom outside the house. To make your analogy work you'd have to admit that locking women in the house 'protected' from the rest of the world is something good. If you do bite the bullet and admit that locking women away is something praiseworthy then you've pretty much conceded sexism in that you think men should have more freedom than women.
your point would have any leg to stand if anyone is talking about locking women in their homes. However, a point worth of noting is that a woman is much safer in her house than she is outside.
You people are the last one to talk about equal freedom etc. Last time I checked men and women are not equal so I don't see how can one argue for both genders having equal freedom. Does your secular law allow women to walk without tops in public? What do you personally think: is it moral if women walk without their taps in public, should this be legalized? We are talking about equal freedom, no sexism and not objectifying a gender right?
Lastly, I have to say that you pick my points on analogy, which is the least of my focus, and ignore the rest of key points for which you have either no answer or you agree with me. The issue is not as much about laws, moral values etc. as it is about the source of moral values and laws.
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
A question comes to mind that I don't think has been brought up earlier in this thread: do the people on this board who support niqab/burka/hijab think men should wear hijab/burka if they are in the presence of Gay men?
عن تميم بن أوس الداري أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: قال الدين النصيحة ثلاثا قلنا لمن يا رسول الله قال لله ولكتابه ولرسوله ولأئمة المسلمين وعامتهم - رواه مسلم
First, it was never my analogy to begin with despite the fact I agree with it Who is comparing gold with women? Do you even know what is the purpose of an analogy?
why would it matter if its your analogy or not? you agreed with it and you're defending it. You're comparing gold with women. That's what an analogy is..a comparison..and in your analogy compared women with jewelery because you were trying to show the similarity between precious things (women and gold).
Are you saying that when we say, as men, we need to protect our women folks implies that we are treating them as non-living objects? Do you objectify your child when you safeguard him/her? This is an astonishing conclusion which only comes from you kuffaar.
No i am saying comparing women with jewelry (a prize) is objectifying them. your analogy was bad. You can't compare one precious OBJECT like GOLD with a living human.
your point would have any leg to stand if anyone is talking about locking women in their homes. However, a point worth of noting is that a woman is much safer in her house than she is outside.
Well that is where your analogy was leading to. You said women ought to be protected in the same way precious gold should be protected and people tend to lock their jewelery in a safe. So your analogy is bad. And no it's worth noting that a woman is safe inside. It's obvious she's safe inside but that type of precaution is much greater than the actual risk involved..so not justified.
You people are the last one to talk about equal freedom etc. Last time I checked men and women are not equal so I don't see how can one argue for both genders having equal freedom. Does your secular law allow women to walk without tops in public? What do you personally think: is it moral if women walk without their taps in public, should this be legalized? We are talking about equal freedom, no sexism and not objectifying a gender right?
half of this is a tu quoque fallacy. I don;t think either women or men should be allowed to walk around topless. Also, you're correct in pointing out that women and men are different. But at the same time, they are similar so some of the laws pertaining to men and women (most i would say) should be the same.
Lastly, I have to say that you pick my points on analogy, which is the least of my focus, and ignore the rest of key points for which you have either no answer or you agree with me. The issue is not as much about laws, moral values etc. as it is about the source of moral values and laws.
Well I don't really have a problem with Hijab or Niqab as long as its strictly a voluntary decision. I think it's better for people to be more covered than not covered. I just had a problem with the analogy because it was a bit sexist and poorly thought out. It's a common one that Muslims use but it really shouldn't be used.
As for the source of moral values and laws I can only give you my guess on that since it is a topic that doesn't have a discovered answer so far; I think moral values come from emotional responses to situations + contractual arrangements with one another which is to say that we have an informal agreement with everyone else in society to not do certain things because it will harm society and if society is harmed everyone loses. As for laws, well laws are just an embodiment of some moral values..namely the ones that will help the country survive. So I guess basically, law is a sub-field of morality..it's the practical morality that a state needs to enforce so everyone can live together and prosper.
Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.
so what? how is it relevant if it doesnt have thoughts and feelings? it is still valuable (extremely valuable). for crying out loud, use your imagination, instead of twisting the argument and making yourself look stupid.
Last edited by Ummu Sufyaan; 01-27-2010 at 10:52 AM.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
11:5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. 11:6 For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head
And despite those verse what do they do
Last edited by Predator; 01-27-2010 at 12:44 PM.
When truth is hurled at falsehood , falsehood perishes. because falsehood by its nature is bound to perish [21:18- Holy quran]
Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?
the burka is a certain style of covering, you are asking about the 'niqab' i assume which is a face veil in general? Anyhow, cover in that manner is mentioned in the Quran and Hadith, and anyone who says otherwise is IGNORANT of islam. yes that may sound harsh but regardless of if a person finds it obligatory or not, to deny that the muslim women werent instructed to cover like that or didnt cover like that and claim the face cover is simply culture is plain and simple IGNORANCE.
Why do some women wear the burka?
why would you imagine? (io mean seriously not sarcastically. why would YOU think a woman might want to cover?)
Do you agree with the Burka?
face veil/ yes i agree with it and follow the opinion it is obligatory/ and wear myself.
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?
The Quran only instructs it for The Prophet peace be upon hims wives/daughters and believing women. so believing women= muslim women. so....
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?
i wear it to please my Lord and because i believe it is a requirement. i dont wear it for any political reason. i have heard women who have said that in the uk they wear the headscarf (not the niqab like youre asking) but if they were to go to iran they would take it off as a protest to the govt who makes them wear it- that to me is wearing for political reasons etc.
so wherever i am, i will wear it.
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?
Cheers.
i speak for myself, i cant condemn women who wear hijab neither am i the type that looks down on others because they dont wear niqab. for example, sometimes i see women wearing the niqab- covering half their face, revealing beautifully made up eyes/ a tight skirt with high heels. by western standard they are covering their faces but on the other hand you see a woman wearing a loose abaya/over garment and a hijab, not covering her face and much more modest than the women covering her face.
Last edited by S_87; 01-27-2010 at 01:32 PM.
Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to Faith: 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed.
Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and expiate from us our evil deeds, and make us die (in the state of righteousness) along with Al-Abrar
Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa,
As it has been said ...already ...repeatedly, there is a difference between the scholars concerning covering the face being compulsory. Note that even if a muslim follows the view of it being optional then it's still rewarded by Allah, Insha'lLah. Still we all believe that it is certainly better to cover the face
The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it.
I also wonder from where you concluded that? I read this thread and there was a dispute about whether burqa is cultular or not. When we say is burqa cultural or not what we talk about here is the style of the cloth and NOT the matter about covering the face in Islam. And also (again) bear in mind that the discussion in these cases (covering the face) is about whether it is compulsory.
But it is part of Islamic culture.
It is surely part of Islam whether obligatory or not. I'll quote this:
From this common sense can be used:
It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever lets his garment drag out of pride, Allaah will not look at him on the Day of Resurrection.” Umm Salamah said, “What should women do with their hems?” He said, “Let it hang down a handspan.” She said, “What if that shows her feet?” He said, “Let it hang down a cubit, but no more than that.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
This hadeeth indicates that it is obligatory for women to cover their feet, and that this was something that was well known among the women of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). The feet are undoubtedly a lesser source of temptation than the face and hands, so a warning concerning something that is less serious is a warning about something that is more serious and to which the ruling applies more. The wisdom of sharee’ah means that it would not enjoin covering something that is a lesser source of temptation and allow uncovering something that is a greater source of temptation. This is an impossible contradiction that cannot be attributed to the wisdom and laws of Allaah.
Here's straight evidence:
It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in ihraam. When they came near us we would lower our jilbaabs from our heads over our faces, and when they had passed by we would uncover our faces. Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1562.
‘Ubaydah al-Salmaani and others stated that the women used to wear the jilbaab coming down from the top of their heads in such a manner that nothing could be seen except their eyes, so that they could see where they were going. It was proven in al-Saheeh that the woman in ihraam is forbidden to wear the niqaab and gloves. This is what proves that the niqaab and gloves were known among women who were not in ihraam. This implies that they covered their faces and hands.”
5 – It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah… that Safwaan ibn al-Mu’attal al-Sulami al-Dhakwaani was lagging behind the army. He came to where I had stopped and saw the black shape of a person sleeping. He recognized me when he saw me, because he had seen me before hijaab was enjoined. I woke up when I heard him saying ‘Inna Lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji’oon (verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return),’ when he saw me, and I covered my face with my jilbaab.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3910; Muslim, 2770)
Very ignorant of you to say it's not an integral part of Islam
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the burqa in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?
...This was a very weird sentence from you. Actually wholely one-sided. You ignored religion
Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.
You don't seem to be interested to change your views regarding the burqa Mmm... Dressing modesty is oppressing other's thoughts and hurting feelings, but dressing revealingly - the way you dress - makes you/your life less- oppressive???
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...
It is that niqab isn't obligatory..
I'm not going to refute ,the niqab is obligatory opinion (which I believe to be easy task,was done by infamous scholars eg; Al-Albani,the great muhadith ) just I advice the sisters who believe niqab is obligatory not to give the impression that such opinion represents Islam,or a school versus another school...... it is,again majority versus minorty opinion......
I feel the need to repost my previous post. This has become a circular debate.
peace
dunno if this post is directed to me.... anyway I haven't debated anyone yet...... and If I would debate It will be those who believe niqab to be obligatory(which I don't think from your previous posts you belong to)...
dunno if this post is directed to me.... anyway I haven't debated anyone yet...... and If I would debate It will be those who believe niqab to be obligatory(which I don't think from your previous posts you belong to)...
peace
Oh! No way! I didnt even look directly below me. Ive been following the thread for a few days and thats the general vibe that I got. I'm sorry you felt that way!
Ws.
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion [/U]of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...
peace
You said you would follow the opinion followed by majority of muslims?
I also follow the opinion of niqab not being obligatory, but it is without a doubt recommended (sunnah) and so better. And that I say by the evidence I quoted.
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(io mean seriously not sarcastically. why would YOU think a woman might want to cover?)
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