Just want to clarify one thing, that is , is all types of music is haram?
I know musical instument is not allowed expcet of duff? and obvisoly bad poetry is not allowed.
Acutully , what i want to know is if the poetry is Good, and we can use duff , so will this also called as music , if you see i am rather confused about the defination of music.
Is there any thing which we called Halal Music?
Furthur more we know musical instument is Haram , can we used natural sounds like birds , water fall , some other good sounds in our peotry to sound its good.
Last edited by peaceandlove; 03-12-2010 at 10:21 AM.
Instead of using alternative sounds why not beautify the poems by writing them in classical poetic meter, such as in iambic meter, spondee, dactylic, etc. Or add words, phrases, or even lines in other languages (Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Arabic, Javanese, Old Javanese, etc.) to have an exotic effect.
Last edited by Al-Indunisiy; 03-14-2010 at 09:41 AM.
First of all, I must point out that I am not muslim but I really enjoy studying its history, its spirituality and its texts.
Everything in nature is music : each sound, each movement can be placed in a musical score so that music is allways present in our life. Some muslim singers understand it and create a music which honour religion and spirituality. I think that if you use the notes which are present in the nature and if you put a beautiful voice and a beautiful text on these notes, you can't produce anything haram.
Well, God creates something which is not material : the sound. As everything on this earth, He said to the sound : "Kun" and the sound now is and it is everywhere. What is sound ? First, it's a miracle. You can see a tree in a garden, behind a window and if there is some wind, you can listen its sound.
But as everything, sound has rules : these are notes and one can transcribe it on a musical score. Every sound is a note. So we can say that music, which is the organization of notes, belongs to the creation of God. Men must use it to honour Him. Whan they sing, when they play music, they must remember that it is a miracle, a gift. That's why I'm saying that music is not haram if you use it remembering that it is a gift from God or from nature if you don't believe in God.
@Shanizz
But, alas, it is contrary to the opinions of classical 3ulamaa' and the source texts. Instruments are not allowed. That is why I recomended the use of poetic devices of classical and mediaeval poetry.
Btw, did you get your source materials from Sufi traditions?
listening to Quran can be a complete alternative to music, you just need to find your favourite reciter
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Yusuf Islam seems to think so, but what does he know?
In short, yes and no. It depends whether you are ahl-as-sunnah or not. And of course for ahl-as-sunnah their way is the only way and all the others are deviations, whereas for the others their way is one of many harmonious with the teachings of the Prophet.
Strictly speaking, only the duff and the human voice are permissable according to sunnah, and generally "instruments" refers to anything outside these. What intrigues me is that one of the most celebrated Muslim artists' Sami Yusuf recorded an album in both a Musical instrument and non-musical instrument version, yet he is still perfectly accepted in both circles.
the idea that music is forbidden amazes me, you could try and explain it to me from now until the end of time and i am quite convinced i would still be none the wiser (although i am starting to think simon cowell might be the devil).
music is an expression of the human soul, through music we are able to express ourselves in a way that cannot be achieved through words. musical instruments become one with the instrumentalist and allow a much deeper human truth to be communicated. music trancends cultural and ideological boundaries and provides a space where we can find common ground.
please clarify for me peaceandlove; are you planning on sampling sounds that occur in nature and looping, time stretching and otherwise digitaly manipulating the samples to achieve a musical effect?
music is an expression of the human soul, through music we are able to express ourselves in a way that cannot be achieved through words. musical instruments become one with the instrumentalist and allow a much deeper human truth to be communicated. music trancends cultural and ideological boundaries and provides a space where we can find common ground.
If this is the case, and music is so great, why do we find musicians to be some of the worst of people, in stability, morals, and character?
My intention is not to offend any musicians or those who love music here, and I apologise if it seemed liked that. I am just trying to sincerely and patiently understand. If what some people say is true, and music has such a brilliant and great influence on the soul, and it brings peace and harmony, would not those people who are most dedicated to it (i.e. music), have the greatest and most brilliant of souls? Would they not be the most peaceful and content and happiest of people? Would they not have the best of personalities and morals? Then why, when u read some of their lives, you find them to be quite the opposite. You find them to be depressed behind the screens. You find them to be anything but peaceful. So many are suicidal, anxious, unstable, have lost, messed up lives etc.
I don’t want to take any specific names or point fingers, but I am sure you can read and see for yourself.
Or if no one minds, I would like to make a proposal – to anyone who claims and believes that music (and by music I mean musical instruments) is good n has a good and excellent effect on the soul.
Give me one example (name and life) of a very famous music-dedicated person who’s character is one of the best in history, and who’s morals and manners are an example to live by.
And I will give you one example (name and life) of a very famous Qur’an dedicated person who’s character is one of the best in history, and who’s morals and manners are an example to live by.
If I am satisfied and convinced with your person more, and their life and character, then I promise you, I will listen to and study music. But if you are satisfied with my person more, their life and character, then you promise me, you will study and listen to the Qur’aan.
Because if music is more better than the Qur'aan and has such a good and healthy effect on the soul, then I, as an intelligent human being, should not deprive my soul of it. But if the Qur’aan is more better than the music, and has such a good and healthy effect on the soul, then you, as an intelligent human being, should not deprive your soul of it. But the condition is we must be sincere. Does this sound reasonable enough?
My intention is not to offend any musicians or those who love music here, and I apologise if it seemed liked that.
I am not in the slightest bit offended. I don't generally make a habit of commenting on threads where Muslims seek advice from other Muslims regarding in-faith issues. It is not my business and my advice is not seeked. I do however, observe these threads and I will respond to what I see as questionable.
I am just trying to sincerely and patiently understand. If what some people say is true, and music has such a brilliant and great influence on the soul, and it brings peace and harmony, would not those people who are most dedicated to it (i.e. music), have the greatest and most brilliant of souls?
Well, firstly we have to objectively determine what a 'soul' is and what characteristics in people determine how much of a 'soul' they might have.
Music, depending on how you feel, and on the its style have and invoke many and at times conflicting emotions. Music can make you depressed, contemplative, ecstactic, confident, melancholic, calm, sentimental, angry, energetic and so on.
Would they not be the most peaceful and content and happiest of people? Would they not have the best of personalities and morals? Then why, when u read some of their lives, you find them to be quite the opposite. You find them to be depressed behind the screens. You find them to be anything but peaceful. So many are suicidal, anxious, unstable, have lost, messed up lives etc.
How do you pretend to know this, I wonder? You seem to be specifically talking about mainstream artists known for their live performances rather than their musical talent.
Or if no one minds, I would like to make a proposal – to anyone who claims and believes that music (and by music I mean musical instruments) is good n has a good and excellent effect on the soul.
Give me one example (name and life) of a very famous music-dedicated person who’s character is one of the best in history, and who’s morals and manners are an example to live by.
?
This is an incomprehensible request for me and a projection of your own moral world view. I presume that you see morality in terms of an 'objective character' (Muhammad). You observe and practice things that he did and believed specifically because he did them. You are projecting this moral understanding into your query here about musicians. Indeed, I hasten to add that even if I did provide examples of musicians you would query any explanation I would provide on the basis that it does not accorde with an Islamic understanding of ethics (the only one you can, by definition accept to be valid).
I don't have a moral world view that limits itself to following by example - you do. I cannot possibly respond to it.
And I will give you one example (name and life) of a very famous Qur’an dedicated person who’s character is one of the best in history, and who’s morals and manners are an example to live by.
As I said.
Your moral dichtonomy. Not mine.
If I am satisfied and convinced with your person more, and their life and character, then I promise you, I will listen to and study music. But if you are satisfied with my person more, their life and character, then you promise me, you will study and listen to the Qur’aan.
I listen to music because I enjoy the sound of it. I don't listen to music because I see moral validity in the composers, or songwriters. Although if a song has a specific message, I am more likely to get meaning from it.
Because if music is more better than the Qur'aan and has such a good and healthy effect on the soul, then I, as an intelligent human being, should not deprive my soul of it. But if the Qur’aan is more better than the music, and has such a good and healthy effect on the soul, then you, as an intelligent human being, should not deprive your soul of it. But the condition is we must be sincere. Does this sound reasonable enough?
Huh?
It really depends on who listening to it. If someone feels more motivated by listening to a song, then it has a better impact for them personally. If someone else feels more motivated by reading the Qu'ran, then the Qu'ran is better for their personal growth. You cannot objectivify emotional responses and their effect on people. It is wholly based on inclination, education, background, tastes, etc.
"I know how to fight
I know how to sing
I know the way"
Well, firstly we have to objectively determine what a 'soul' is and what characteristics in people determine how much of a 'soul' they might have.
You seem to objectively determine tooo much. If someone said 'you have a good brain' will u also objectively determine what a 'brain' is and what characteristics in people determine how much of a 'brain' they have' ? I hope not, because it makes conversation very tiring and difficult....
And just to clarify, by morals I meant universal morals, that we all agree upon. Honesty, kindness.. etc. Anyways, my intentions are not to get into a debate.... so, Peace.
Sorry I haven’t responded for a while - rebuilt my computer last year and only just got round to re-logging on to all my forums (of which the IB is one of my faves!)
Yeah it's such a tough call, music has been part of our culture for so many years, I think the oldest musical instrument found so far was over 9000 years old! a flute in china, for this reason I will try to really address the issue because music is so ingrained in world culture and something I care so passionately about.
I understand that in Islam music is considered something of a distraction from observing the faith, and I think this is clear from the quote `There will be people of my Ummah who will seek to make lawful; fornication, wine-drinking and the use of ma`aazif ( musical instruments ).`
Although I think to lump music in with wine drinking and fornication is a little simplistic - clearly Bukhari had observed that wine drinking and fornication had occurred in locales to music and has tarred it with the same brush - it is a stretch to see any direct relationship between them though - traditionally many armies travel with a musician to march into battle, does that make war, fornication and music bedfellows - obviously not.
format_quote Originally Posted by piXie
I would like to make a proposal – to anyone who claims and believes that music (and by music I mean musical instruments) is good n has a good and excellent effect on the soul. Give me one example (name and life) of a very famous music-dedicated person who’s character is one of the best in history, and who’s morals and manners are an example to live by. And I will give you one example (name and life) of a very famous Qur’an dedicated person who’s character is one of the best in history, and who’s morals and manners are an example to live by.
Pixie in answer to your question about the dubious moral character of famous musicians I would answer that musicians are only human and there is good and bad amongst all - as with all walks of life, and there are many famous examples of musicians taking a moral lead, indeed in western culture it is often our musicians, film makers and writers that we look to as uninhibited messengers regarding current issues, some good examples would be -
- Neil Young, he recently despaired at the war on terror and produced the album 'Living With War' in 2006 which made him many enemies in America with such song titles as 'let's impeach the president' - but he felt so passionately that the war was wrong he risked everything to back the anti-war view - can you name a Koran dedicated person who risked everything they have, including their place in history and the future of their children to speak out about the mistakes of their leaders?
- Midge Ure & Bob Geldof, they organised Live Aid and Live 8 to raise funds for the starving in Africa and to combat global poverty raising hundreds of millions of pounds - can you name a Koran dedicated person who has raised so much money to help those less fortunate? here in the UK we get Islamic TV and I watch it and I am yet to see an advert for a charity that aims to help non-Muslims, it would appear from my perspective that the Koran dedicated individuals you mention seek to help only other Koran dedicated individuals - could you please also supply an example of a Koran dedicated individual who works selflessly to raise money and help those outside of Islam because I know they must be out there but I haven’t heard of any but I would like to have the example for future debates.
- Bob Dylan, who has written many anti-war songs and had a great impact on western youth, indeed his 1963 album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan is still revered for its tracks like 'blowin in the wind' that aided the civil rights movement and the push for nuclear disarmament - often if you seek to highlight an injustice it can be hard to be heard but if your vehicle is music not only can you circumvent those who might seek to censure your views but also the beauty of the music and the rhythm of the lyrics acts like sugar helping the medicine to go down - the genre of 'social commentary' exemplified by unblemished artists like Bob Dylan or Billy Bragg have contributed a great deal to an enlightened society - our politicians know that there are many artists out there who will speak out against injustice or corruption and this has helped in some small way to create a fairer society.
And music festivals traditionally partner with charities to raise funds from the ticket receipts and to raise awareness - the recent Glastonbury festival partnered with Wateraid. Charity gigs are a staple - need money for your charity? Musicians will play for free and the money goes to those who need it most.
Don’t get me wrong, music is such a powerful tool that it can be abused - I also despair at the moral vacuity of much of our chart music, talent less hacks like Madonna or lady gaga I imagine are your bugbear for their loose moral values, perhaps the famous musicians like jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison who have died through drink and drugs also set a bad example. I would say that this category of musician is viewed almost like astronauts - they travel to the furthest reaches at great personal danger and send back messages so we needn’t put ourselves personally in harms way, also their well-publicised demise serves as a warning to our youth, not as an invitation.
Also as possible as it is to make a positive contribution it is also possible to make a negative contribution, such genres as 'gangsta rap' have glorified gang violence and there are also bands issuing negative politics - although I believe the shame is not the music, but that their is a ready audience of disadvantaged souls who identify with a divisive message, however this message could just as easily be conveyed politically or through a religion, and at least in music there is a counter-argument supplied by a diametrically opposed artist occupying the same space.
format_quote Originally Posted by piXie
If I am satisfied and convinced with your person more, and their life and character, then I promise you, I will listen to and study music. But if you are satisfied with my person more, their life and character, then you promise me, you will study and listen to the Qur’aan.
Because if music is more better than the Qur'aan and has such a good and healthy effect on the soul, then I, as an intelligent human being, should not deprive my soul of it. But if the Qur’aan is more better than the music, and has such a good and healthy effect on the soul, then you, as an intelligent human being, should not deprive your soul of it. But the condition is we must be sincere. Does this sound reasonable enough?
Peace,
That really doesn’t sound reasonable at all Pixie, I certainly am not trying to convince you to listen music, that is your personal choice, but as a musician I wouldn’t be here on this forum unless I studied Islam - I don't see the two things as in competition with each other, although they can be a wonderful addition to a full life, why deprive yourself of one or the other? They are not mutually exclusive. from my personal point of view music is as integral to my life as nourishing my soul spiritually - playing instruments and making songs for as long as a can remember, when I jam with other musicians words need not be spoken, we communicate through our instruments and synchronise naturally complimenting each other - I imagine in a similar way to a prayer meeting, a life without music to me is like a life with Islam would be to you and I don’t see them as assets to be swapped or traded – they must remain above that.
format_quote Originally Posted by piXie
You seem to objectively determine tooo much. If someone said 'you have a good brain' will u also objectively determine what a 'brain' is and what characteristics in people determine how much of a 'brain' they have' ? I hope not, because it makes conversation very tiring and difficult....
And just to clarify, by morals I meant universal morals, that we all agree upon. Honesty, kindness.. etc. Anyways, my intentions are not to get into a debate.... so, Peace.
Interesting that you should mention brains - many of our greatest scientists were also musicians such as Galileo, and it has been proved that musicians have bigger and more sensitive brains than people who do not play instruments, the auditory cortex, which is the part of the brain concerned with hearing, contains 130 per cent more "grey matter" in professional musicians than in non-musicians.
And I don't wish to appear obtuse but one of the primary purposes of a forum is for reasoned debate – I hope you have not been exasperated by this thread too much – I certainly wouldn’t want you to feel as if your views were under attack, it is just that there have been numerous threads on the issue of music and most of them are usually shut down before the debate has run its course and this is an aspect of Islam that fascinates me.
I very much hope you respond to my counter-argument.
Respect, Peace & Love
Yarba
PS – and back to Peaceandloves’ original question; is it ok to use sounds that occur naturally in the world in music?
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