Hidden messages through historical texts, confused about Islam

format_quote Originally Posted by mattqatsi

This is a little hard to explain right off the bat but is something that is quite important and eye-opening (at least for me.)

Greetings,

This is a multi-part question, it can't be asked outright and I'll reveal the question after another post or two so please bear with me. But any seeker of truth should find this interesting, if it is correct.

Also, I am legitimately looking for answers, so please respond, because this really confuses me about Islam and is one of the things that is, I guess, "holding me back" from your faith. Please help clear this up, part of me wants to go crazy because things don't add up.

1. According to Islamic belief, what is the genealogy from Adam to Noah, from creation to the first destruction? How many people were there and what were there names? Is the Islamic view the same as that of the Torah on this issue? What about after the flood? Are there any reliable genealogies?

We don't know when Man came to be on earth with respect to the creation:

76:1- Has there [not] come upon man a period of time when he was not a thing [even] mentioned?

determining such a 'period of time' is probably one of the down-falls of Christianity. History of the Earth isn't consistent with what your bible says and generally that is believed to be because the bible is the work of men not the unerring, transcendent word of God!

2. I know the Torah is held to be inspired by the Islamic faith, but which parts? I know not all of it is considered inspired, but what is and isn't inspired and how do you know it?

In which way is Islamic belief 'Inspired' by the Torah?

Does The Qur'an Mentioning Stories Found In Previous Writings Threaten Its Credibility?

By

Bassam Zawadi

Christians love to keep pointing out that stories found in Islamic sources could actually also be found in earlier sources (see here) and by Allah's grace there have also been Muslims refuting these claims (see here).

I think what these Christians fail to realize is that Islam does teach that it has come to confirm the truth of the previous scriptures. Indeed, some true stories could have found their way into the Bible or other apocryphal books. There is nothing unbelievable or astonishing about that.

Take for example the argument regarding Thomas's Infancy Gospel and how it also contains the story of Jesus in the cradle similar to the one found in the Qur'an (Surah 19:28-34). Christians object to this story because it is not found in the Bible.

In response to this we reply back by saying "lack of evidence does not necessarily imply evidence of absence". The author of John's Gospel makes it clear that Jesus did many things (possibly miracles as well) which weren't recorded (John 21:25), therefore there is a good reason for us to believe that this miracle of Jesus was also not recorded.
I agree with John's logic; however I don't hold his Gospel to be authoritative.
It is very reasonable to believe that this story of Jesus did not find its way into the Gospels.
Someone might argue back that the Gospels teach that Jesus' ministry began later in life while the Qur'an seems to indicate that it happened shortly after he was born.

Well first of all, this begs the question that whatever the Gospels have said is true.

Secondly, it would be possible to harmonize between the two if it is necessary. Perhaps, Jesus did this initially as a baby in order to vindicate his mother from the false accusations levelled against her and show that his birth was indeed a miracle from God (if you can believe that a baby can speak then why not believe in a virgin birth?) and then later on in the future Jesus began preaching full time and this is what the Gospel authors spoke about.

Also, the author of the article states:

Muhammad was about 40 years old when he received his first revelation and it took about 23 years until it was complete. But here, as a newborn, Jesus supposedly already declares: "He has given me the Book..." That is past tense. When do you think that Jesus received his book? Has he received the Book while in the womb, before he was even born?


Imam Qurtubicites several opinions of the meaning of Jesus' statement and the strongest one is that Jesus was intending to say that God has decreed that the Book (Gospel) will be revealed to him. So it is in the past tense in the verse since it is referring to the act of decreeing.

Similar figure of speech is found in Surah 108:1, where God says that He has given (in the past tense) the Prophet (peace be upon him) a river in heaven. Obviously, once the verse was revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him) he was still on planet earth and didn't have the river in his possession. However, the verse is trying to signify the reality of Allah's promise and decree.

Thus, logically speaking there is no reason why we should believe that these arguments are threatening to the Qur'an's credibility.

I would like to advance three more arguments:-


1) Stating information that already exists does not imply plagiarism

Just because the Qur'an mentions stories about Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) or David (peace be upon him), which are also found in the Bible does not necessarily imply that it was copied from the Bible. It is very possible that those true stories were maintained in the Bible and the Qur'an simply came to confirm their authenticity, especially when we take into consideration that this is one of the functions of the Qur'an. (Surah 5:48)

2) How did Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Avoid Errors if He Were Plagiarizing?

If the Prophet (peace be upon him) were copying from the Bible blindly then we would expect to see that he would have also copied some of the errors in the Bible.

The Bible mistakenly calls the king that lived during the time of Joseph 'Pharaoh' (e.g. see the book of Genesis, Chapter 41, Verses 14, 25 & 46) while he really shouldn't be called Pharaoh. This is because the Egyptians did not call their ruler "Pharaoh" until the 18th Dynasty (c. 1552 - 1295 BC) in the New Kingdom Period.

But the Qur'an correctly labels him only as 'king' (The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 12, Verses 43, 50, 54, 72 & 76) The Bible's use of the term 'Pharaoh' is an anachronism, while the Qur'an's usage of the term 'king' isn't.

For an excellent online article to read on the issue please refer to the article "Qur'anic Accuracy Vs. Biblical Error: The Kings & Pharaohs Of Egypt", available here.

The Psalmist says that nothing can escape the sun's heat (read this), mistakenly showing that he didn't understand the vastness of the universe and how things in the universe are not affected at all by the Sun's heat. The Qur'an says no such thing. As a matter of fact, the Qur'an indirectly goes against this by speaking about the darkness found in the depth of the seas in Chapter 24, Verse 40. Thus, the Qur'an speaks about some places in which there is no light.

The Bible contains genealogies scattered throughout the Old Testament, (especially in books such as 2 Chronicles) which imply that the first human being was created sometime between 6,200 and 7,300 years ago (Dr. Walt Brown., In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood, (7th Edition), Source).

However, this is an archaeological error since there are human fossils that predate this early date:

The fossilized skulls of two adults and one child discovered in the Afar region of eastern Ethiopia have been dated at 160,000 years, making them the oldest known fossils of modern humans, or Homo sapiens. (Robert Sanders, "160,000-year-old fossilized skulls uncovered in Ethiopia are oldest anatomically modern humans", UC Berkley News, 11 June, 2003, Source)
Scientists have unearthed three 160,000-year-old human skulls in Ethiopia that are the oldest known and best-preserved fossils of modern humans' immediate predecessors. (Rick Callahanm, "160,000-Year-Old Skulls Found", CBS News, June 11 2003, Source)
Human fossils found 38 years ago in Africa are 65,000 years older than previously thought, a new study says 'pushing the dawn of "modern" humans back 35,000 years. (Hillary Mayell, "Oldest Human Fossils Identified", National Geographic News, February 16, 2005, Source)


However, the Qur'an and authentic hadith are silent on this issue. Surely, we would expect to have seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) copying from these genealogies since they are so scattered across the Bible.


Thus, when we investigate the claim of whether the Prophet (peace be upon him) plagiarized from the Bible or not we can see that the evidence further supports his Prophethood and does not discredit it.

Furthermore, the assertion of Judeo-Christian borrowing raises a number of questions. Jamal Badawi puts forward the following six questions:

2. Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad's (peace be upon him) life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad (peace be upon him) might have learned all that?
3. It is known that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad's (peace be upon him) claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion, changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil... etc.
4. Muhammad's (peace be upon him) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterises tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?
5. What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (peace be upon him) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?
6. How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?
7. It is known that some of the Qur'ânic revelations to Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the presence of people. The Qur'ân was revealed over the span of 23 years, where then that was mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad (peace be upon him)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was constantly surrounded by companions, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once?

3) If It Is Good Enough To Refute The Qur'an Then It Is Also Good Enough To Refute The Bible


Christians who put forth these arguments don't realize how self referentially incoherent their argument actually is.
The assertion that allegedly "numerous" stories in the Quran are "borrowed" from Jewish Talmudic sources and Christian apocryphal writings appears to be based on the dubious underlying presumption that similarity implies "borrowing." For example, consider the similarities/parallels between certain Biblical stories and those found in the Near Eastern literature.
Some notable examples:
- Genesis creation story and Enuma Elish; (See here and here)
- The flood story (Genesis 6-8) and Atrahasis and Gilgamesh (See here and here)
- Israel's ancestors and the Nuzi texts (See here)
- Biblical laws (Exodus 21-23) and the Code of Hammurabi (laws 195-214)
- Biblical texts (the Ten Commandments and the structure of Deuteronomy) and the Hittite Suzerainty treaties and Vassal Treaty of Esarhaddon (See here and here)
- Book of Proverbs (22:17-24:22) and the Instruction of Amenemope (See here and here)
The latter are undoubtedly far earlier than the Biblical accounts and both direct and indirect connections have been posited between the two. The parallels in the last example are particularly striking, with most scholars agreeing that Proverbs 22:17-24:22 and Amenemope are clearly connected in some way (reminder: Amenemope is older than Proverbs).
We can, however, be reasonably certain that Christian apologists will not conclude based on the - at times striking - similarities that the Biblical authors "borrowed" their stories from their much older Near Eastern counterparts. However, in the case of the Quran not even a slight consideration and reasonableness is granted. Indeed, how much clearer can their hypocrisy and double standards be?



Recommended Reading

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=523§ion=indepth&subsec tion=Glorious%20Quran

3. What verses in the Qu'ran as well as other Islamic beliefs point to the idea that God cannot come in human form, and that Yeshua did not die?

Prophet Jesus in QuranPROPHET JESUS (PBUH) IN QURAN

2-87 5-73 19-21 6-85 3-45
2-136 5-75 19-35 3-55 3-49
2-253 19-19 43-64 4-171 3-59
5-72 19-20 4-157 5-116 5-17
2-87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary clear signs and strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.

2-136 Say Ye "We believe in God and the revelation given to us, to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, to the tribes, to Moses, Jesus and to all prophets from their Lord." We make no difference between them, and we bow to Allah as a Muslim.

2-253 To Jesus, the son of Mary, we gave clear signs and strengthen Him with the Holy Spirit.

5-72 They do blasphemy on those who say, "God is Christ, the son of Mary". Christ said, "O children of Israel worship God my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins God with other gods will not go to heaven, the hell fire will be his resting place. These are the wrongdoers.

5-73 They do blasphemy on those who say, "Allah is one of three in a Trinity", for there is no God but one God.

5-75 Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger like the messengers that passed away before Him. His mother was a woman of truth. God makes His signs clear to them, yet they are deluded away from the truth.

19-19 Then we sent her our Angel and he appeared before her as a man in all respects, she said, "I seek refuge from thee to God most gracious." He said, "Nay I am only a messenger from thy Lord to thee with the Gift of a Holy son."

19-20 She said, "How shall I have a son when no man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"

19-21 He said, "So it will be", thy Lord saith, "That is easy for me and we wish to appoint Him as a sign unto man and a mercy from us", and so it was decreed.

19-35 It is not fitting to God that He should beget a Son. Glory be to Him. When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is. (KON FA YAKOON).

43-64 Jesus said, "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him".

4-157 They said in boast, "We killed Jesus Christ, son of Mary, the messenger of God." But they killed Him not, nor crucified Him, but so it was made to appear to them. Those who differ are full of doubts with no certain knowledge. Nay Allah raise him up unto Himself.


as for anthropomorphism:
quoting directly from the Quran:

I know some of these have probably been mentioned on the site before, but please bear with me, I would really like to get an honest Muslim to provide their scripture and not someone (me) who is having a hard time interpreting/grasping it.

Hope the above answered your queries..

peace

format_quote Originally Posted by questioner8

I think the islamic idea of Jesus, is very similar if not the same as the gnostic christians, who appear to have distorted and perverted the real gospel and promoted heresies

lol.. have a look closer look at the bible you follow before quickly talking of distortions ey?

- Refuting the Argument From Prophecy (34)
- Refuting Arguments For The Resurrection (14)
- Refuting The Argument From Archaeology (5)

- Refuting The Argument From Scientific Accuracy (2)
- Contradictions and Difficulties in the Bible (2)
- Miscellaneous Errors in the Bible (2)


all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by questioner8

You just confirm the 'gnostic christian' view from which islam gets it same/similar distorted ideas!

Have you ever considered the possibility that the council of Nicea distorted Christianity by deleting the gnostic gospels?

format_quote Originally Posted by questioner8

You just confirm the 'gnostic christian' view from which islam gets it same/similar distorted ideas!

How does pointing out biblical distortions confirm any christian view?

your entire religion is faulty. unknown authors, no textual integrity, no chronological integrity, wrought with endless errors as only a fabled book written by men of a self-immolating mangod who couldn't choose proper apostles to shoulder the responsibility after his DEATH as such even peter 'the rock' denounced him three times before the mangod prayed in Gethsemane apparently to himself, forsake himself anyway, and so he appears to a charlatan and a known nemesis to abrogate his previous commandment.

Christianity in a nutshell, there is positively no reason to discuss little irrelevant finite details when the very basic tenets are positively mind-boggling and borrow greatly from paganism!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by questioner8

To understand the 'trinity'(1 GOD in 3 persons)!

Here is an experiment that acts as an analogy.

Try getting some ice cubes and start to melt them in a saucepan.
As the ice starts to melt, you will still have the remaining ice along with steam/vapour and water in the pan all at the same time!

They are all water in 3 different forms existing all at the same time!

lol.. is that what they teach you in sunday school?
god didn't split himself into two ineffectual and one untrustworthy entity prior to Christianity unless of course you are speaking of Pagan practices which in fact Christianity is very much akin to. Though the 'trinity' is a major down fall for Christianity it isn't its only downfall!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by questioner8

To understand the 'trinity'(1 GOD in 3 persons)!

Here is an experiment that acts as an analogy.

Try getting some ice cubes and start to melt them in a saucepan.
As the ice starts to melt, you will still have the remaining ice along with steam/vapour and water in the pan all at the same time!

They are all water in 3 different forms existing all at the same time!

Fail. Its has been completeley debunked here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_AgcLjXruY

Christianity died almost before it was born. They were numerous "books" written all alleging to be the Teachings of Jesus(as), but none lasted except those that supported the Early Catholic teaching which in turn is a modern form of Greek and Roman mythology. The Gnostic books are just as Christian as the Gospels of Mark, Matthew,Luke and John and the letters of Paul. None of which are the teachings of Jesus(as)

What is passed off as Christianity is Paulism flavored with Greco/Roman idolatry and supported by inaccurate translations of misquoted texts. The arguments most non-Catholic Christians use against Catholicism apply to all Christian denominations. Rome and Greece corrupted the Word of God(swt)

Just my opinion and personal belief. I personally find Christianity to be the biggest insult possible to Christians.

One problem many Christians have in understanding us, is their failure to comprehend we do not believe the Bible is the word of God(swt). Biblical concepts are not only invalid, some we find to be very heretical and blasphemous. Some of us, such as myself find explanations about the trinity to be very ungodlike, blasphemous and on the edge of profanity. The concept of Trinity is very anti-God and demeans the nature of the One God(swt).

format_quote Originally Posted by questioner8

You have all taken my analogy too far and are trying to make it in to something literal, beyond the basic analogy!

The islamic 1 god, is not 3 dimensional and denies GOD(YAHWEH) HIS supernatural power and abilities, which go way beyond human understanding!

At least there is one point of agreement. The attributes of Allaah(swt) are far beyond human comprehension.