After deciding to depart this forum and take from you the benefits of my insightful thought and sharp wit I find myself with a question which I am having difficulty to answer and knowing the answer lies amongst you I return for your help.
The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims and in considering what is happening has formed the view that there are two types of Muslim, Islamists and Muslims or radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. Words have been invented to describe the ‘bad’ Muslims and the ‘good’ Muslims. I came across an article on the Middle East Forum which Argued that "radical Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution."
My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?
The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?
If you believe that there is a radical Islam and a moderate Islam and radical Muslims and moderate Muslim; what is a moderate Muslim, what does he/she believe and do differently than the Islamist?
If there are radical and moderate Muslims, what percentage of the membership here is radical / moderate?
I am here to learn; note that is not the same as to be instructed. I will be courteous and respectful to anyone who helps me learn. I will not attempt to destroy anyone else’s posts of opinions with insults or by cutting and pasting volumes of diatribe. I don’t expect to be liked as I understand that my posts often irritate because humans being human don’t like anyone challenging what they believe.
you haven't challenged anything we believe, I can't even give you the credit of having come up with it yourself given how many times posted and refuted (including above where you have claimed that love is mentioned less than hate and I have demonstrated that the ratio isn't even 5:1 not that either terms in solitary isolation would have meaning anyway.. you take out of context and expect to be seen as some sort of Illuminati -- the greatest guffaw of all is if some western swine was telling his kids to be true to who they are and not imitate others and follow them into ignorance and stupidity you'd have thought them the greatest words uttered.. The mere fact that you so despise Islam and Muslims and have no desire to read but the greatest desire of all to complain and pat yourself on the back for allegedly being challenging while ironically suffering exactly that which you attribute to others. Cuts and pastes, lack of objectivity, lack of reading and voluminous diatribes!
good luck with all of that!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims .
Strange people those non-Muslims... we see the opposite. We see western imperialism and aggression and exploitation. We see invasions and massacres by western armies.. overthrowing of governments.. installing of puppet regimes.. economic and political sanctions.. manufacturing "news".. CIA operations.. systematic torture.. false flag operations... depleted uranium.. constant violations of international agreements and rules by those who want others to abide by them.. terrible warcrimes and much more.
Last edited by Argamemnon; 10-28-2010 at 12:39 AM.
its not just muslims who see that.
I said before i'll say again.... the US was a lot better off during its period of isolationism bfore WW2... and even if the war meant we "had" to get out of that philosophy we would have been much better returning to it. While i have had people in a few countries wish that the US would invade and over throw certain governments... every time i hear it ... it kinda turns my stomach because i've watched so much of what happened in Iraq and afghanistan and i am not so sure they understand what they are asking for.
Salaam to all
Serena
Yeeeeeeeaaaaaahh!! Yoo-ess-ay! Yoo-ess-ay! No one's as hated or stereotyped as us! W'ere! Number! One! We're! Number! One!
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
If I were a Muslim I would be what has become known as an ‘extremist’ because I would have to accept that the Qu’ran is the word of God, that He didn’t make a mistake and that He didn’t need His words interpreting in some way other than how He said them. I started my question here because there are Muslims who speak of other Muslims in terms of radical extremist and moderates and I wondered how Muslims defined those two types of Muslim. Why, because it seems to me that the ‘west’ wants to support moderate Muslims and isolate and vilify extremist Muslims; I wondered what a moderate Muslim is? It has been said here that for Muslims there are no extremists and moderates just good and bad Muslims; a good Muslim being the one who adheres strictly to Islamic teachings. We could argue about which interpretation by which scholar but whatever the interpretation the weight and sentiment of the Qu’ran and Islamic teaching promotes division and conflict between Muslims and non Muslims. So what is a moderate Muslim?
Islam teaches that Muslims must physically look different to non Muslims, they must not have non Muslim friends, they must not live amongst non Muslims, they must not even live on the land of non Muslims. Islam does not preach that we should all love each other, it teaches that anyone who is not Muslim is the enemy. Count the number of words in the Qu’ran that speak of conflict, violence and hate and then count the number of words that speak about love and peace; then examine the verses that speak about peace and look at the context. That isn’t me being nasty or judgmental that is what the text says and you can “ah but” “ah but” all you like, that is fact.
The Muslim you call a ‘good’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and adheres to the script. The ‘bad’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and decides that he/she is going to adhere to the script. Then there’s a whole bunch of Muslims who are in denial, they look towards the ‘scholars’ for reasons why the text doesn’t actually mean what it says; they search for excuses. I started my journey searching for reasons why and how the script had been misinterpreted, I’ve ended up having to accept that if it walks with a waggle, has feathers and quacks it’s a duck. Consequently If I were a Muslim I would accept those words as Gods word and in Muslim terminology I would submit and that would make me an extremist.
Interesting you should say the text says one thing and means something else. You must have Islam confused with something else, or have little or no idea on asbab an nuzool.
You have probably noticed "mischief is worse than killing" to mean "go and kill those you disagree with", while the Quran is saying something completely different to your theory. The "mischief" of the makkans wasn't a light disagreement; they tortured many Muslims to death. This problem continued until the "conquest" of makkah. You haven't pointed out the fact that Rasoolullah didn't punish the makkans for what they had been doing.
Islam allows plenty of room for justice; if someone has been torturing innocent people to death, then the death penalty isn't too much for him.
Islam doesn't allow killing of innocent people; the examples of killing clearly mention that its to put an end to their evils, which they inflict upon innocents.
Do you still believe the Quran is teaching the media's "extremist" view of Islam? If so, study about Islam. If not, still study and you may learn more.
You know, for someone who allegedly doesn't "cut and paste volumes of diatribe", your diatribes do at the very least sound so much like the typical cut-and-paste jobs, refuted nineteen hundred times over on this and other boards (much of it already in this very thread), that we're used to seeing as to make no practical difference. You don't act like someone who's here to learn. What is it you even want to learn?
Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!!
Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!!
Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?
Its unwise to waste two days of your life writing a post of references, which you don't even understand. Its better to write one reference with understanding, than a million without.
Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!! Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?
If that took you a few days to compile from ready existing cuts and pastes, I hazard think of how long it will take you to read the refutations given.. maybe you should come back when you are fully evolved? That might take care of a few problems for you -- speed, reading, comprehension and perhaps an original thought!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I just realized what I do not like about this thread.
The connotations the media has caused people to have over the words Extremist and Moderate.
It seems that to many the word Extremest means violent and the word moderate means liberal, permissive. A Muslim is neither.
A true extremist Muslim will be a very Peace seeking person and desire what is fair and just while following Allaah(swt). A moderate would be similar, but not as out spoken.
Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!!
Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?
If you're not going to bother giving a full and real rebuttal to me, I don't see why I should bother doing the same to you. Do a search.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
It seems that to many the word Extremest means violent and the word moderate means liberal, permissive. A Muslim is neither.
I live in the UK and we hear the term "moderate Muslims" a lot on the news. Your description is perfect of what "moderate" seems to mean; liberal, progressive, etc. Before I actually started looking into Islam myself, I had no idea what "moderate" Islam was supposed to be. I think the media and the UK Government in general is desperate to distinguish between "extremism" and "normal" Islam, and thus they could only come up with the term "moderate". But, from what I'm seeing on this and other Muslim forums I've been reading, Muslims themselves hate the word "moderate". It looks like the UK government has really screwed up here.
I live in the UK and we hear the term "moderate Muslims" a lot on the news. Your description is perfect of what "moderate" seems to mean; liberal, progressive, etc. Before I actually started looking into Islam myself, I had no idea what "moderate" Islam was supposed to be. I think the media and the UK Government in general is desperate to distinguish between "extremism" and "normal" Islam, and thus they could only come up with the term "moderate". But, from what I'm seeing on this and other Muslim forums I've been reading, Muslims themselves hate the word "moderate". It looks like the UK government has really screwed up here.
I agree. The media has really messed up the word definitions and have turned into labels of their own design. If we stick to the true meaning of Moderate one would understand Islam is a very peaceful religion with a lot of tolerance for all people. But, we are not liberal, nor permissive. Because the media seems to have changed moderate to mean permissive, many of us are growing to hate the label Moderate.
Extremist has also been messed up, it does not mean the same as fanatical, which is more in line with blind obedience with no thought of others. Extremist need not be a bad thing. At least I hope not as I am a bit of an extremist in my Moderate views.
Perhaps it would be nice if the press came to the understand we are Muslims first, but we are also human and have human traits with individual behaviors, I think the words of the press are designed to label the actions of individuals as actions of an entire group.
After deciding to depart this forum and take from you the benefits of my insightful thought and sharp wit
:X
I find myself with a question which I am having difficulty to answer and knowing the answer lies amongst you I return for your help.
I would glad to answer your...question.
The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims and in considering what is happening has formed the view that there are two types of Muslim, Islamists and Muslims or radical Muslims and moderate Muslims.
I disagree. I highly doubt you speak for the non-Muslims across the globe. The non-Muslims I assume your referring to are westerners. Yes, it does represent the simplistic minds of some westerners, splitting everything into two categories.
Words have been invented to describe the ‘bad’ Muslims and the ‘good’ Muslims. I came across an article on the Middle East Forum which Argued that "radical Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution." My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?
There is no such thing as moderate or radical Islam. I have no idea why you are asking Muslims on this forum this question. Last time I checked, it was westerners that divided Islam into moderate and radical. This question should be presented to those who have created these categories.
The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?
You need to define radical and moderate. What is radical and moderate?
Last edited by GuestFellow; 11-08-2010 at 11:39 AM.
Just a few newbie thoughts and I will try to keep this brief, though of course there are so many elements in the picture that it's impossible to address them all.
I have had similar discussions in the past regarding 'moderate' and 'radical' Muslims, with both Muslims and kafir, and I feel some items should be clarified early on in any such discussion because so many people confuse Muslims with Islam. It has happened in this thread, with references to both moderate Islam and radical Islam.
First, radical and moderate are subjective terms, so a moderate to one person may be a radical to someone else. It is not Muslims but the kafir that are obsessed by such notions which were created by them in order to pigeonhole Muslims neatly into one box or the other. I feel sad when I see my brothers taken in by this cheap political stunt, looking all warm and fuzzy when condescending kafir put them into the 'moderate' box. It is still a box!
That said, such terms may be useful for context in discussion. It's just that I feel uncomfortable when Muslims use them without safely distinguishing between Muslims and Islam, as commonly happens. Unless this difference is clearly understood, it can wrongly be implied that just as each Muslim is an individual and unique, there is also a selection of Islams according to what is being discussed.
So, while there may be 'moderate' and 'radical' Muslims, with a 'radical' today perhaps becoming less or more 'radical' tomorrow, there is only one Islam in perpetuity for all people and that will not change because it cannot, since if it does it can no longer respectfully be called Islam. To use simple logic, it is patently absurd to assume that anything perfect can be improved by changing it in any way.
Then, again using the discriminatory terms of the kafir, what is the difference between a 'moderate' and a 'radical' Muslim?
If someone stands outside your house and throws stones at your windows are you a 'moderate' Muslim if you hide your frightened children under the bed, and then after a week or a month or sixty years, do you now become a 'radical' Muslim for daring to leave the rubble and defend them?
Is a 'moderate' Muslim striving for peace and justice and equality any different to a so called 'radical' Muslim that is also striving for peace and justice and equality, or are they both striving towards the same ends using different means?
Sorry, I didn't expect such a long post...
Thinker: Never mind how many days you squandered compiling a post, your best will take a few minutes if they're straight from a lifetime of peace and pain.
My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?
About 90% of Muslims are Sunni Muslims. That means by definition they strictly follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. The texts are available world wide and American Muslims practice Islam with the same rules and the same absoluteness as Muslims in every culture.
There is no organized group of Muslims who consciously do not fully follow Islam and still consider themselves practicing Muslims. Muslims who don't fully follow Islam are really not recognized by most Muslims in terms of giving them a separate label. They are simply people who are not that religious.
#1 People who do not fully follow Islam make that choice individually.
#2 There is no group of people who have organized in order to not fully follow Islam.
#3 There is no philosophy that exists that directs a person in which way to go about to not fully follow Islam.
Therefore the term "Moderate Muslim" does not make sense because it does not describe any organized group of people.
What is the definition of a "Moderate Muslim"? There is none. Muslims don't have one and non-Muslims don't have one.
The term "moderate Muslim" was not really used until after 9/11. It is a term that the media made popular in order to feed into the misconception that the 9/11 hijackers attacked America because they were practicing the true religion of Islam; that is to say, the implication is that "Moderate Muslims" are not fully practicing Islam and the true religion of Islam teaches violence. The media has obviously succeeded in deceiving most non-Muslims.
The vast majority of Muslims define Islam as a peaceful religion. Again the term "Moderate Muslim" is a concocted term but unfortunately some Muslims use it. However as I just explained the term does not have a definition and when some Muslims use it they do not necessarily believe it to mean what you take it to mean. But of course these Muslims have been tricked into spreading confusion about their own religion.
They know that indiscriminate killing is not sanctioned by Islam so some Muslims label the Muslims that kill indiscriminately as "Radical". But the point they are attempting to make is that people who practice Islam fully and properly are "Moderate Muslims", i.e. 99% of Muslims are "Moderate Muslims" and therefore peaceful, and "Muslims" who kill indiscriminately are "Radical" Muslims. But Muslims who use the term "Moderate Muslims" are inadvertently, due to media propaganda, confusing people into thinking the exact opposite. When Muslims use the term "Moderate Muslim" they legitimize the term from the point of view of a non-Muslim. However the non-Muslim continues to define the term in the way that the media has portrayed it.
#1 Muslims use the term "Moderate Muslims" to refer to the true adherents of the teaching of Islam.
#2 The media has confused people into thinking that "Moderate Muslims" are people who do not truly adhere to the teachings of Islam.
The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?
Islam in many ways does not promote cohesion you are correct. However you are incorrect in your assertion that Islam promotes conflict.
Islam promotes the devision of good from evil and of truth from falsehood.
Promoting division is not a bad thing in and of itself.
You don't want your kids to live in the wrong neighborhood or socialize with the wrong people.
Division has no violent effect on non-Muslims or Muslims.
The Quran speaks poorly about unbelievers but nowhere does it command Muslims to instigate violence towards them or to treat them unjustly.
You cited 50 verses from the Quran and I read them ALL. I have no doubt in my mind that you cut and pasted them off a website. Two of them are in your list twice (8:12 and 9:123) another one is listed three times (47:4), and Surah 3:240 is in your list, but it DOES NOT EXIST (Surah 3 only has 200 verses). The verses you cited do not teach that unbelievers are the enemies of Muslims. Islam is not a "Radical" way of life.
You actually only quoted one verse about violence for us to examine.
"Jihad is ordained for you".
The word "Jihad" means struggle. Or fight. Or fight in the cause of Allah.
The word "Jihad" itself has nothing to do with unbelievers.
So basically the verse reads, "Fighting in the cause of Allah is prescribed for you".
In the context you realize that the fighting prescribed is in self defense.
If Islam promotes conflict you would see it at your front door. There are 5 million + Muslims in America.
Moderate Muslims are those Muslims who follow the Religion, without going into extreme, and without falling into neglect. They follow a middle course. In this sense, moderate Muslims are the true Muslims, who are truly following in the footsteps of our beloved Prophet, Muhammad Mustafaa صلى اللّه عليه وآله وسلم
Muslims are very diverse, after all, there are seventy-three different sects among the Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad صلى اللّه عليه وسلم said that out of all the sects, there is only one which is saved. It was asked to him which one is that, to which he replied: "The like of that which today I and my companions are upon."
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didn't punish the makkans for what they had been doing.
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