After deciding to depart this forum and take from you the benefits of my insightful thought and sharp wit I find myself with a question which I am having difficulty to answer and knowing the answer lies amongst you I return for your help.
The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims and in considering what is happening has formed the view that there are two types of Muslim, Islamists and Muslims or radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. Words have been invented to describe the ‘bad’ Muslims and the ‘good’ Muslims. I came across an article on the Middle East Forum which Argued that "radical Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution."
My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?
The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?
If you believe that there is a radical Islam and a moderate Islam and radical Muslims and moderate Muslim; what is a moderate Muslim, what does he/she believe and do differently than the Islamist?
If there are radical and moderate Muslims, what percentage of the membership here is radical / moderate?
Myth #1Ahadeeth were written 200 years after the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): I actually believe that people did right down ahadith during the time of the prophet so on this point I am in agreement with the author.
Myth #2 Al-Hikmaah is an attribute of the Glorious Qur’aan. It does not matter if Hikmaah is referring to the quran or the teachings of the prophet. I have no qualms with the idea that the teachings of the prophet are a wisdom from Allah, my position is that there is no way to verify that what we have now are the authentic teachings from the prophet because ahadith preservation is conducted through mortal channels.
Myth #4 The ahadeeth is not protected.: This is the single most important issue in my assessment of the legitimacy of ahadith. And the author fell short in his defence of ahadith preservation. The ayat that the author cited is as follows:
"With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you the Dhikr, that you may tubayyina (explain clearly) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. (Soorah An-Nahl:44)"
The author said that Dhikr has numerous meanings and one of the meanings is sunnah. The above ayat is his proof of his position. However he is obviously being hypicritical. When he wanted to separate the quran from Hikmaah in order to bolster his previous argument he cited an ayat that states that the prophet teaches "the book and the Hikmaah". And he argued that these are two seperate things.
Now that he wants to bolster a different argument he cites a verse that says "we...sent...you the Dhikr, that you may teach (explain clearly) to men". And he said that the dhikr and the teaching is the same thing.
The truth is that "Dikr" in the latter ayat refers to the Quran and the "teaching" is a reference to ahadith.
If I am mistaken in this assessment than please correct me. The bottom line is that the author does not provide any valid evidence to oppose the most delegitimizing factor when speaking of ahadith (and in fact the most important and the only point that I pointed out in my argument against them).
And that is that ahadith preservation is a mortal endeavor and therefore flawed
Myth #5 Some authentic ahadeeth contradict the Glorious Qur’aan
The author himself admitted that there are some "apparent" contradictions but then he states that it is because the sahabas narrated according to their own understanding? Then he states that the general public cannot point out a contradiction because our capacity to interpret is not as good as the scholars. So we should look to the scholars.
But of course there are Quraniyyah scholars who will also point out the same contradictions.
So the author fails again.
In any event Qatada, the preservation of ahadith is the most important issue and this article failed to show that they are definitely preserved.
Ya ayyuha alnnasu inna khalaqnakum min thakarin waontha wajaAAalnakum shuAAooban waqabaila litaAAarafoo inna akramakum AAinda Allahi atqakum inna Allaha AAaleemun khabeerun
49:13 (Y. Ali) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
There are various threads addressing the validity of Sahih Sittah (Six sound ahadith)
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo alrrasoola waolee alamri minkum fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin faruddoohu ila Allahi waalrrasooli in kuntum tuminoona biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri thalika khayrun waahsanu taweelan
4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
There is one way to refer anything in which we differ to the Messenger, His Sunna which is contained within the Sahih Sitta (Six sound).
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
kidcanman, thankyou for your willingness to discuss and learn
My Question: Can you prove to me that the Qur'an we have today is the same Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad?
The only real way we can know this is if we study Authentic history, with a Authentic chain - back to the time of Prophet Muhammad and his Companions - the generation which taught it to us.
So if you accept the Quran, you also accept the AUTHENTIC hadith, those statements which have Trustworthy, truthful narrators within them, leading all the way back to Prophet Muhammad.
Its not about who CLAIM to follow the way of Prophet Muhammad and his companions, rather its about those who actually DO follow their way and example.
Those who do that are ahlus sunnah (the people of the Qur'an and Sunnah).
Esselamu aleykum,
Every sincere Muslim obviously wants to follow the way of prophet Muhammed and the Sahaba, but it's not always easy to access that knowledge. But I digress.. let's go back to the main subject. I haven't really followed the whole thread and don't want to interrupt..
Every sincere Muslim obviously wants to follow the way of prophet Muhammed and the Sahaba, but it's not always easy to access that knowledge. But I digress.. let's go back to the main subject. I haven't really followed the whole thread and don't want to interrupt..
Akhi, i'm fully aware of what you are talking about since i have been through this period of confusion myself. However I will tell you that those who have claimed to follow Allah's Messenger and his companions, while claiming to be Ahlus Sunnah will infact turn away from the evidences when they are given to them, merely because they were brought up learning a different version of Islam.
For example, I am a pakistani. I know that there are sects within Pakistan who claim to be Ahlus Sunnah, they will claim to love Allah's Messenger more than anyone else, yet that love makes them imitate the Christians who worshipped Jesus, except this sect will worship Allah's slave and Messenger Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam). Even if you give them clear proofs from the Qur'an!
Those who follow the Sunnah in its totality are an Extreme Minority. Those who agree with it while not 100% following it are also a minority. Yet those who oppose it knowingly or unknowingly are the majority.
Akhi, i'm fully aware of what you are talking about since i have been through this period of confusion myself. However I will tell you that those who have claimed to follow Allah's Messenger and his companions, while claiming to be Ahlus Sunnah will infact turn away from the evidences when they are given to them, merely because they were brought up learning a different version of Islam.
For example, I am a pakistani. I know that there are sects within Pakistan who claim to be Ahlus Sunnah, they will claim to love Allah's Messenger more than anyone else, yet that love makes them imitate the Christians who worshipped Jesus, except this sect will worship Allah's slave and Messenger Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam). Even if you give them clear proofs from the Qur'an!
Those who follow the Sunnah in its totality are an Extreme Minority. Those who agree with it while not 100% following it are also a minority. Yet those who oppose it knowingly or unknowingly are the majority.
Very true akhi, I agree. On the other hand, I would never make tekfir on anyone who believes in Allah and his messenger (s.a.w.).. some extremists unfortunately do this. This person is kafir, that woman is kafir.. almost everybody is kafir except himself of course I condemn this attitude, only Allah s.w.t. knows who is or isn't a real kafir!
Very true akhi, I agree. On the other hand, I would never make tekfir on anyone who believes in Allah and his messenger (s.a.w.).. some extremists unfortunately do this. This person is kafir, that woman is kafir.. I'm against this attitude, only Allah s.w.t. knows who is or isn't a real kafir.
Yeah I leave that to the people of knowledge, who sometimes have to do it to expose someone who may be spreading mis-truths [lies].
49:13 (Y. Ali) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
Nation and tribes does not mean sects. Do you mean to tell me that Allah made us into sects that we may know each other? And if that is what it means then it refutes the hadith in topic because it goes on to say that the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous. which means it does not matter what sect you are in as long as you are righteous.
4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
There is one way to refer anything in which we differ to the Messenger, His Sunna which is contained within the Sahih Sitta (Six sound).
If you read my previous post then you would understand that I do not think that sunnah is a bad thing. My position is that we don't know if the sunnah that we have with us right now is the original.
I read your link and I don't fall into any of the catagories that the author addresses. #1. I don't think that all hadith are false. On the contrary, I follow many hadith and really I don't have a problem with the teachings. My position is that I think that many hadith are true, and I don't have a problem with almost any hadith, but I don't think that we are able to say unequivocally that what we have now is the original. #2 I am not a secularist as evidenced by my explanation in #1. #3 it does not matter if the first muslims said to follow what the prophet said because I agree with that. Where is the evidence that what we have now is what the prophet said?
kidcanman, thankyou for your willingness to discuss and learn
My Question: Can you prove to me that the Qur'an we have today is the same Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad?
The only real way we can know this is if we study Authentic history, with a Authentic chain - back to the time of Prophet Muhammad and his Companions - the generation which taught it to us.
So if you accept the Quran, you also accept the AUTHENTIC hadith, those statements which have Trustworthy, truthful narrators within them, leading all the way back to Prophet Muhammad.
Qatada this claim is a dangerous one, and this is the second time you have made a claim about Islam based upon "ahadith" and that is what I'm telling you. That you need to think twice. And all muslims do.
How can you say that the only way to prove the quran is authentic is through "ahadith" when the quran itself refutes this. The quran says if you think he forged it then produce a surah like it. The quran says if it came from any besides Allah then you would find in it many contradictions (like in "ahadith"). But I think your concern arises from the fact that there is supposedly more than one version of the quran. To this I say that you simply apply what Allah himself said and look for contradictions. But really there is another way. The quran is truth. So you can simply look at each verse and reason and see if what is says makes sense. If it does not then you make your choice. You can either think that perhaps you don't understand and continue to try and find the meaning, or else you can think that there is no doubt that the quran does not make sense and then you can reject it.
I just hope that you don't go around telling people that the only way to understand the quran is through "ahadith". This is a good example of how "ahadith" have caused muslims to make up ideas that are not found in the quran and that are perhaps contrary to truth.
And I put ahadith in quotes because I am not against following the teachings of the prophet, but there is no proof that what we have now are the orginal.
There is a reason why you are hiding behind the Anonymous Account and Posting.
Just one question: If you are claiming to be a practicing Muslim, observing the (arkā al-Islām أركان الإسلام): Shahada, Salah, Saum, Zakat and Hajj, عقائد ʿaqā'id (Aqīdah): Tawhid,Mala'ika,Kutub,Rasul (Nubuwwah),Qiyammah and Qadar.
When time permits can you provide the forum the way you perform Salat from just the Quran. The Quran provides the commandment, describes different direction but the functions, movements are in the Sunna.
Qul in kuntum tuhibboona Allaha faittabiAAoonee yuhbibkumu Allahu wayaghfir lakum thunoobakum waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun
3:31 (Y. Ali) Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Last edited by sabr*; 02-15-2011 at 07:08 PM.
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
Wama kana limuminin wala muminatin itha qada Allahu warasooluhu amran an yakoona lahumu alkhiyaratu min amrihim waman yaAAsi Allaha warasoolahu faqad dalla dalalan mubeenan
33:36 (Y. Ali) It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
kidman, this whole discussion has been extremely confusing because I did not understand your stance and what you believe. But now that you have clarified yourself, I will try to address your main point;
How can we be sure that Ahadith are direct from Prophet Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam)?
There is a science of Hadith called Ilm al Rijaal - Knowledge of Men. This knowledge quotes the biographies, knowledge, teachers/students, trustworthiness of known Narrators of Hadith, from the generations in which Ahadith were conveyed.
So a chain will look like this;
[Saying of Prophet Muhammad] - Companion/s who Narrates it - His Students' who heard it's Names - their Students - the Compilers in the famous Books i.e. al Bukhari, Muslim etc.
Each person in the hadith has to be trustworthy for it to be an Authentic hadith. Which we may accept in Islamic law. If there are liars/forgetful people in the chain, the scholars of that generation will have pointed out their mistakes in the books of Ilm al Rijaal [knowledge of men].
I am confused. What are we discussing here? First about moderates and extremists, then about sects and now about the Qur'an and Hadith? o_o
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Just one question: If you are claiming to be a practicing Muslim, observing the (arkā al-Islām أركان الإسلام): Shahada, Salah, Saum, Zakat and Hajj, عقائد ʿaqā'id (Aqīdah): Tawhid,Mala'ika,Kutub,Rasul (Nubuwwah),Qiyammah and Qadar.
When time permits can you provide the forum the way you perform Salat from just the Quran. The Quran provides the commandment, describes different direction but the functions, movements are in the Sunna.
Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [/COLOR]
[/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
Allah advises us to pray five times a day. The details about prayer are traditional. I don't have a problem with the details but I recognize that there is no concrete evidence that I am obligated to follow them. So the answer to your question is: we are instructed to pray five times a day; the decisions concerning the details of the manner in which we pray are contingent upon our own opinion of what is proper (this may or may not include ahadith) and our sincere effort to please Allah.
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Re: What is a moderate Muslim?
I condemn this attitude, only Allah s.w.t. knows who is or isn't a real kafir!
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