What is a moderate Muslim?

There is no such thing as moderate Muslim vs. Extremist Muslim..
there are good Muslims and bad Muslims, as to how you desire to quantify and qualify is entirely based on your personal opinion.

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

If there are radical and moderate Muslims, what percentage of the membership here is radical / moderate?

That is just plain funny.. next time your (murse) man-purse is stolen, do yell out stop thief and let me know if the perpetrator responds...


all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims

While that is the feeling of non-muslims (no doubt fuelled and inflamed by media such as fox), the reality is that citizens of muslims world are being attacked by non-muslims.

Do you not agree?
or do I still have to give you numbers?
or do you need time to do more thinking?

Before I begin, I'll tell you that I believe the words "radical" and "moderate" were thrown out there in the mix of all this islamophobia propoganda. Thus, any Islamic values or practices that cannot or do not assimiliate in western culture/society is considered to be "extreme" and anything that can be tolerated or be practiced unnoticeably is "moderate." Furthermore any practices or people that were connected to Islam that are not a technically Islamic are also considered "extreme" and anything good connected with a Muslim that is not Islamic is considered to be "moderate."

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?

In the world of Islam, you're either a Muslim or you're not. If you follow the Quran and Sunnah the way it's meant to be followed, then you're in the fold of Islam. If you don't you're sinning or you're putting yourself in a situation where you're going to push yourself away from all that is Islamic.

For instance, it's an obligation upon us as Muslims to pray 5 times a day. If we want, we can pray extra prayers for whatever reason, but of course we have to be mindful to our 5 obligatory prayers first and make those our priority. If we miss our prayers and don't make them up, if we pray less than 5 prayers, or don't pray at all, then you're sinning and commiting an act of kufr (disbelief) by neglecting your prayers. In a way I guess this would be considered "extreme" on one side of the spectrum. Now if you're praying 24/7/365, then that's also being "extreme" and it may lead you to kufr because it's not the way of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and it may cause apathy inside a person that they just leave it all together one day, or it may make them feel prideful when the purpose of prayer is to feel humility. Finally, if someone is practicing a way which is different, like listening to music while praying, or doing movements and things which are not a part of the sunnah, and justifies it as ok, then he is innovating and that is also forbidden and not a part of Islam.

Islam is about practicing what is prescribed for us to practice. How much to practice, when, where, and how is all ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, not by us as individuals. Whoever goes and does his own thing against what Allah has ordained for us, is not following Islam correctly.

is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?

Depending on the way you'd look at it, I'd say both. Islam preaches peace and cohesion, obviously "Islam" itself means peace, and "ummah" is the Islamic nation of brotherhood and unity, so it definitely promotes peace. However we're all human and expect to be treated as such, if someone or a group is going to opress, humiliate, and belittle our existance, we're supposed to fight them til death if necessary, but there are rules to that of course.

There's some division and there isn't. The division in Islam is obviously the fact that we need to remain our own religion, not allow any cultural infiltration affect our faith, and for us to follow the religion by dressing a certain way or practicing a certain way. In this way I suppose there is a natural division in which people will know this is Islam and it is different and it's people are Muslims and they are different from us. Yet, at the same time we are meant to show kindness and love and allow people to feel welcome around us, to the extent where they could ask sincere questions and not feel that they would offend us, and if they like, to befriend us as well. As humans though, conflict may arise in some instances due to misunderstandings or intolerance and disrespect, I wouldn't say Islam would promote this type of conflict.

If you believe that there is a radical Islam and a moderate Islam and radical Muslims and moderate Muslim; what is a moderate Muslim, what does he/she believe and do differently than the Islamist?

I think I answered that above as well.

It does indeed follow-- as such you should qualify and quantify 99% of us on this forum and perhaps the world over as extremists/fundamentalist/fanatical/overzealous Muslims if a percentage point similar to that one you presented is what you were looking for.. Hope that resolves any further queries for you?

have a great day

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

From the posts above I formed the view that you think solely in terms of good Muslims and bad Muslims where a good Muslim is defined as someone who adheres strictly to the Qu’ran and the sunnah (and note hadith wasn’t mentioned?) and a bad Muslim is one who does not i.e. the range of how good and how bad is defined by how devout or how lax the Muslim is.

I actually had one particular hadith in mind while writing, decided not to use it because I didn't want to be redundant, but here it is:

Anas reported that: “Three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet and asked how his worship was. When they were informed, they considered their own worship to be insignificant and said: 'Where are we in comparison to the Prophet when Allaah has forgiven his past and future sins?' One of them said: 'As for me, I shall offer prayer all night long.' Another said: 'I shall observe fasting perpetually, never to break it.' Another said: 'I shall abstain from women and will never marry.' The Prophet then came to them and said: “Are you the people who said such things? I swear By Allaah that I fear Allaah more than you do, and I am most obedient and dutiful among you to Him, but still, I observe fasting (sometimes) and break it (at others); I perform (optional) prayer (at night sometimes) and sleep at night (at others); I also marry. So whoever turns away from my Sunnah (i.e., my way) is not from me.” [Al-Bukhaari & Muslim]

The question that follows is, could the non Muslims world fairly define a person who adheres strictly to the Qu’ran and the sunnah as a radical extremist?

There is nothing stable about the definitions nonMuslims give Muslims. In fact, the majority of nonMuslims can't even define a Muslim because they're simply ignorant. I've had a lot of people mistake me for being Indian Hindu and are baffled by why I don't have a red dot on the middle of my forehead. Many nonMuslims don't pray at all, some take those two minutes before they go to sleep, some only when they're conflicted with a problem, etc. so for them to hear that a Muslim must pray 5 times a day, the reaction is always, "That's too much." Why is it too much? When your soul is not perfect and you sin through out the day and need forgiveness, and when you should thank God for everything He's blessed you with, or when you just need a 5 minutes to remember Him, 5 prayers is honestly nothing, but Allah has made them to be the weight of more than all this earth and all that's in it. When I explain it to them, they fully understand and so many of them have said, "I respect you so much for sticking to your beliefs and practicing the way you do," and others have said, "I wish I could do that, but that'll just take too much out of my day" or something along those lines, so in the end it's their problem, not the religion, and they acknowledge it.

Back to my point, anything that seems to be different or is different from the nonMuslims' practices is going to be viewed differently by different people. There are some Muslims who, due to their ignorance of their own religion, sugarcoat Islam because they are afraid to say "I don't know," and thus they mislead people into having a different concept of Islam. I do feel that the more nonMuslims are exposed to Islam through questioning, the more they grow interested in it and the more they are able to tolerate it or even grow to love it.

Charisma’s eloquent post above describes how Islam promotes both peace and division, cohesion and conflict. I would argue that if you weighed the volume of Islamic teachings preaching conflict and division against that preaching peace and cohesion there would be a lead weight one side and a few feathers the other. I have studied the verses of the Qu’ran and have found non which preach unconditional peace and tolerance, all I have found are a few verses which at best suggest that non Muslims be tolerated, treated with some respect and kept at arms length; that’s a long way from unconditional peace and tolerance.

Post up the verses you've studied, let's see. You too should provide proof of your work, can't always expect us Muslims to do it for you

One thing I don't understand is why do nonMuslims only study the Quran when Islam is Quran & Sunnah? Our practices come mostly from Sunnah, not the Quran.

Does it not then follow that the person you describe as a good Muslim is the person non Muslims describe as the radical extremist and the person you describe as the bad Muslim is the person is the person non Muslims describe as the moderate?

Through my perspective, it's not to which the degree the Muslim practices, it's honestly the degree to which the viewer is knowledgable about Islam. Whether I prayed once or 50x a day and made it a religious obligation, to one person it may be more radical than to another simply by the degree in which they themselves practice or understand. Therefore, I cannot generalize because I've met some different nonMuslims who's thoughts quite differed. There are whites who are still very much racist, so no matter what shade of "dark" someone is, they'll still dislike them because they have been conditioned to do so, or because they isolate themselves in a white community where everyone else is an outsider and does not belong, even if they talked, ate, slept in the same exact manner that they do. In the same way I suppose, that's how Muslims are viewed by those types of close-minded individuals.

The video looks interesting, will check it more later.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

Post up the verses you've studied, let's see. You too should provide proof of your work, can't always expect us Muslims to do it for you

You are not satisfied with his personal testimony and link?
I rather think we should give him exactly what he wants and feed it to him to absolute satisfaction, as he seems to be seeking out one particular answer anyway..

certainly fidelity and the sublime nature is a secret that God puts only in his faithful servants.

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

You are not satisfied with his personal testimony and link?
I rather think we should give him exactly what he wants and feed it to him to absolute satisfaction, as he seems to be seeking out one particular answer anyway..

certainly fidelity and the sublime nature is a secret that God puts only in his faithful servants.

\

Haha, no of course not, I have to be fair

I'll tell you this much, when I post up anything, I realize that there will be more than one reader, not just him. Therefore, whatever his intentions are don't really matter to me, if one person cannot learn from what is said, someone else will.

So far the link he showed is actually interesting.

format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*

I'll tell you this much, when I post up anything, I realize that there will be more than one reader, not just him. Therefore, whatever his intentions are don't really matter to me, if one person cannot learn from what is said, someone else will.

Fair enough.. I don't have the time nor am I amused by prolonged and refractory condescension and willful ignorance.

Have you gone over any constitution? Do you know any country in the world that doesn't per its constitutional rights have an army, a navy and air force etc.?
Yet they seek to deprive Muslims of their rights and slap labels on them..

Islam is a complete way of life, governance, finance, social structure, beliefs, inheritance, jurisprudence. A complete religion, a religion that is truly from God should not be some relic visited three times a year and on sunday. It is a complete system.. a system that will include war and treaties, and economics and politics.

Here you have a guy who decided that he read and in his two weeks of grazing he knows all about Islam, all about the Quran, and has the nerve to come here with utmost insolence and temerity to teach us Muslims how it is.

I personally lost interest back in 2008.. I think encroaching upon three years is ample time to catch if but a small distillate of the subject or simply get out and live in that hateful bubble and fill it with the same ole until it bursts upon its creator!

I disagree with that-- Jesus (p) didn't hang around long enough to complete and lead aright the lost sheep of Israel and establish their law in the land, as a result christianity rather than enforcing the OT laws became this monolithic religion and adapted to pagan practices and rituals and eventually was shelved as a spiritual thing rather than a complete way of life.. Only Judaism and Islam are both religion and law.. of course the Jews though they have their alleged 'Jewish state' also don't follow Jewish laws and substituted for secular ones like their Muslim counterparts they have to implement God's law but at least the secular system they adopted is a better one for no seats are bequeathed to kings.

The west merely wants to separate the Quran from the Sunnah and delete half of the Quran leaving it to the Makkan suras that deal with spirituality and not much to do with governance etc. They do that every which way, smear campaigns, images played over and over, on the web, on the media, in the midst of Muslims, casting doubt upon the scholars trying divisions here and there, bombing places and blaming it on partisan divide to provoke civil wars amongst those who have lived side by side for millenniums
read for instance:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...aq-475889.html

keeping prodigal kings on a leash while instigating war in every other Muslim region. Are they successful at it? well you merely need to look at folks like our well learned and deeply thoughtful ''Thinker' to draw your own conclusion.. They brreed ''Thinkers'' a dime a dozen!

But I tell you in spite of all of that the majority of Muslims are extremely well educated, and quite familiar with what is going on as well the Quran, so to all those efforts I'll quote the noble Quran:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ لِيَصُدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَسَيُنْفِقُونَهَا ثُمَّ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسْرَةً ثُمَّ يُغْلَبُونَ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ يُحْشَرُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 8:36] Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,



Who are they truly at war with? a few Muslims that they are trying to separate and conquer or God's divine promise?

all the best

Thinker, why don't u read Quran with commentary and then see whether you still have complaints. Don't ask why youmust read commentary, since God sent the Prophet (SAW) to show us how to follow the Quran. God didn't just send the Quran. And to understand the Quran you need to read commentary.