Let me first start off that I don't mean to start an argument, or sound like I'm in any way questioning The Prophet (pbuh). This is a legitimate question, and I hope nobody is offended. So here goes...
Is it generally thought that The Prophet (pbuh) is completely infallible even in matters that do NOT pertain to religion? I understand the he is completely sinless, and whenever he speaks of something regarding God or religion then he shouldn't be questioned. No arguments there. But what about when he made a statement regarding worldly things? Things like agriculture, medicine, or science? Is there a possibility that he could have been wrong in certain things he said?
The reason I ask is because I was reading some articles (Written by a Muslim) that brought up some rather interesting points regarding this issue. The author basically said that The Prophet was not infallible when it came to things like science, and this got me thinking... I started researching, and came across the following Hadiths in Sahih Muslim:
(all three are identical)
5830
Musa b. Talha reported: I and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) happened to pass by people near the date-palm trees. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What are these people doing? They said: They are grafting, i. e. they combine the male with the female (tree) and thus they yield more fruit. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I do not find it to be of any use. The people were informed about it and they abandoned this practice. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) (was later) on informed (that the yield had dwindled), whereupon he said: If there is any use of it, then they should do it, for it was just a personal opinion of mine, and do not go after my personal opinion; but when I say to you anything on behalf of Allah, then do accept it, for I do not attribute lie to Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.
5831
Rafi' b. Khadij reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Medina and the people had been grafting the trees. He said: What are you doing? They said: We are grafting them, whereupon he said: It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practice (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it (to the Holy Prophet), whereupon he said: I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being. 'Ikrima reported that he said something like this.
5832
Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) happened to pass by the people who had been busy in grafting the trees. Thereupon he said: If you were not to do it, it might be good for you. (So they abandoned this practice) and there was a decline in the yield. He (the Holy Prophet) happened to pass by them (and said): What has gone wrong with your trees? They said: You said so and so. Thereupon he said: You have better knowledge (of a technical skill) in the affairs of the world.
___________________________
I believe that understanding this is really important, because it would mean that we could be a bit more critical of certain Hadiths, as well as having some other benefits... (again, I'm not questioning The Prophet. I'm really curious, and I really believe this topic has merit..)
Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Hopefully we can keep the discussion civil... I understand that topics like this can be kind of dangerous to get into... But I don't really have anyone else to ask a question like this too.
Alot of people use the Science Hadiths to prove (in favour) as to why the Prophet(pbuh) could not have authored the Quran. Personally speaking, the Prophet(pbuh) was the best of Characters, he was noble and showed Mankind how to act in order to become close to God. If we want to learn about Science, then we shouldn't be relying on what he said as that has really nothing to do with religion, plus that was said in the 7th century, the 21st century Sciences would be different.
I'm a little self-conscious about that article, Perzeverance, and wonder if I should ever have written it. In any event I should have written it more carefully. (I didn't even remember to give it a title: the website-designer just slapped that generic one on as a result.)
Look, here's all you need to know: the infallibility of the prophets (P) does apply only to their religious teachings. And all it really means is that God picked people righteous enough never to lie about the religion they were being given and made sure that they knew from Him what to give.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
I'm a little self-conscious about that article, Perzeverance, and wonder if I should ever have written it. In any event I should have written it more carefully. (I didn't even remember to give it a title: the website-designer just slapped that generic one on as a result.)
Haha, that was actually the article I was talking about. Nice site btw.
Why would you feel self-conscious about the article though? I can kind of see why you think it should have been written more carefully, since I myself felt a little odd when I first read it.. But that's mainly due to the fact that you so rarely hear any Muslim speaking of the Prophet (pbuh) saying anything wrong. Still, its a good read. It prompted me to do some of my own research... And it forced me to come here with my question. I tried asking one Muslim friend, but he was far too scared to answer...
Look, here's all you need to know: the infallibility of the prophets (P) does apply only to their religious teachings. And all it really means is that God picked people righteous enough never to lie about the religion they were being given and made sure that they knew from Him what to give.
Thanks. I've been wondering this for a while, and the article was just one of the first to actually bring it up... If this really is the case, then it would clear up a few things for me, which is always good.
The message of the prophets was definately infallible, as it was all devinely inspired.
Regarding deeds, I believe they were free from sin, maybe not unconscious mistakes, but definately free from sin.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Regarding the Q the Prophet (SAW) was a perfect example in every way.
And if you read the Quraan Allaah says in surah Al Qalam : "And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character."
This Ayaah makes it very clear insha`Allaah
peace
Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 01-02-2011 at 11:55 PM.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
Maybe this has nothing to do with the topic but the prophet (saw) was human and did make mistakes ex. surah abasa.
Salam
Assalaamu`Alaaykum
Do you have the ayah number dear sis? if so please can you post it insha`Allaah
Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 01-02-2011 at 11:57 PM.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
Regarding the Q the Prophet (SAW) was a perfect example in every way.
And if you read the Quraan Allaah says in surah Al Qalam : "And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character."
This Ayaah makes it very clear insha`Allaah
peace
My question wasn't talking about his character. Reread my original post and hopefully you'll see what I mean... The hadiths I posted should clarify it further... The Prophet was undoubtedly the best example for us all, but I want to know if he could be wrong in worldly matters. If he, for example, gave you advice on how to paint [or anything worldly for that matter], then could he have been wrong in his advice? Again, the hadiths should make my questions clear.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм
Assalaamu`Alaaykum
Do you have the ayah number dear sis? if so please can you post it insha`Allaah
Isn't it well known that the beginning of Surat Abasa has Allah correcting the Prophet (pbuh) on his interaction with a blind man? This isn't to say that he sinned, but that God had set such high standards for his messenger, that he corrected him even in this.
The Prophet frowned and turned away
Because there came to him the blind man, [interrupting].
But what would make you perceive, [O Muhammad], that perhaps he might be purified
Or be reminded and the remembrance would benefit him?
[Also, if you're interested... Nouman Ali Khan has an excellent audio tafsir of the 30th juz of the Quran up on his website. Here's the link ]
Do you have the ayah number dear sis? if so please can you post it insha`Allaah
What Tyrion posted above.
The prophet was trying to persuade some big chieftains in mecca to accept Islam. A blind man approached him for an explanation about Islam. The Holy Prophet (Saw) disliked his interruption and ignored him and that's what the first few ayahs of Abasa refer too.
Salam
it would mean that we could be a bit more critical of certain Hadiths, as well as having some other benefits... )
Who's we? Me and you?
I think what you say here is highly disrespectful, arrogant and ignorant. Almost as if you're suggesting none of the scholars of the past had ever thought of what you just did and had never taken it into account.
No questioning your intentions but really, please appreciate scholarship in Islam. Read these to start with, if you are as sincere as you make out: 1, 2, 3. Read them all properly, they'll go a long way in elucidating the whole concept of taqleed/following which you have trouble understanding too.
I think what you say here is highly disrespectful, arrogant and ignorant. Almost as if you're suggesting none of the scholars of the past had ever thought of what you just did and had never taken it into account.
No questioning your intentions but really, please appreciate scholarship in Islam. Read these to start with, if you are as sincere as you make out: 1, 2, 3. Read them all properly, they'll go a long way in elucidating the whole concept of taqleed/following which you have trouble understanding too.
Secondly, this isn't me having a go at you for no reason. I would like to see some of your ignorance dispelled. Based on what you say in this thread and what you've said in the past, you have a number of misconceptions. This is me, a concerned brother, trying to guide you to some useful resources which should help you.
Do take the time to read them, it's for your own good.
I quite agree with brother Bedoin, believe it or not he is trying to answer your question if you understand insha`Allaah.
Those hadeeths are not be interpretated by normal people like us but people who are way more knowledgeable in those areas.
It is best to speak to someone with knowledge regarding trying to understand what a certain Ayaah of the Quraan or certain a hadeeth means, you CANNOT interpretate yourself or anyone out there.
Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 01-03-2011 at 05:10 PM.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
The ahadith are in regard to non-religious matters. Allah's Messenger gave some personal advice [at a human level], and different results came about.
This shows his humbleness when it comes to non-religious issues. This is why he told at the end; for it was just a personal opinion of mine, and do not go after my personal opinion; but when I say to you anything on behalf of Allah, then do accept it, for I do not attribute lie to Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.
Either he was fallible and made mistakes, or he was infallible and many of the hadiths accredited to him are false because they contain blatant scientific errors.
If he was fallible then you need make your own decisions based on objective facts. If he was infallible then the only way to know which are true/false is again to use objective facts.
So it seems to me that whichever is true you are in a position where you need to use objectivity and factual evidence to live your life.
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