forward to 25 mins and check out the takfeeris .
Array
forward to 25 mins and check out the takfeeris .
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=9656
First Hadeeth
This hadeeth is found in Musnad Ahmad, Hadith no. 5157:
ورسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يقول هكذا بيده ويحركها يقبل بها ويدبر يمجد الرب نفسه أنا الجبار أنا المتكبر أنا الملك أنا العزيز أنا الكريم فرجف برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم المنبر حتى قلنا ليخرن به
حدثنا عبد الله ثنا أبي ثنا عفان ثنا حماد بن سلمة أنا إسحاق بن عبد الله يعنى بن أبي طلحة عن عبيد الله بن مقسم عن بن عمر : ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم قرأ هذه الآية ذات يوم على المنبر { وما قدروا الله حق قدره والأرض جميعا قبضته يوم القيامة والسموات مطويات بيمينه سبحانه وتعالى عما يشركون }
Abdullah – Abdullah’s Father – Affan – Hammad bin Salamah – Ishaaq bin Abdullah (i.e. bin Abi Talha) – ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim – Ibn Umar: The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him recited this ayah on the pulpit one day “They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him!” (Surah 39:67) and Allah’s Messenger peace be upon him said like this with his hand moving it back and forth. The Lord glorifies Himself saying “I am the All Compeller, I am the Proud, I am the King, I am the Mighty, I am the Generous”. The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him began to shiver on the pulpit until we said it will collapse with him.
Authenticity of First Hadeeth
Shaykh Shu’ayb Al Arna’ut commented on this hadeeth saying:
إسناده صحيح على شرط مسلم رجاله ثقات رجال الشيخين غير حماد بن سلمة فمن رجال مسلم. عفان: هو ابن مسلم الباهلي
It’s isnaad is Saheeh [authentic] on the condition of Muslim. It’s men are Thiqaat [trustworthy] and the men of the two Shaykhs except for Hammad bin Salamah for he is only from the men of Muslim. Affan is Ibn Muslim Al Baahili.
Second Hadeeth;
This narration is found in Al Tabarani's Al Mu'jam Al Kabeer, Volume 12, page 355:
وقبض رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم يده وجعل يقبضها ويبسطها ثم قال : ( فيقول : أنا الرحمن أنا الملك أين الجبارون أين المتكبرون ) وتمايل رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم عن يمينه وعن شماله حتى نظرت إلى المنبر يتحرك من أسفل شيء منه حتى أقول أساقط هو برسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم
حدثنا يحيى بن أيوب العلاف المصري ثنا سعيد بن أبي مريم أنا ابن أبي حازم ثنا أبو حازم عن عبيد الله بن مقسم أنه سمع عبد الله بن عمر : يقول : رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم على المنبر وهو يقول : ( يأخذ الجبار سماواته وأرضه بيديه )
Yahya bin Ayub Al 'Alaaf Al Masri - Sa'eed bin Abi Maryam - Ibn Abi Hazmi - Abu Hazim - ‘Obaidillah bin Muqsim - Abdullah ibn Umar said: I saw the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the pulpit saying "The All Compeller will take His heavens and earth in His Hand" and the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him clasped his hand continuously clasping and unfolding it. Then he said "Then He will say: I am the Most Gracious, I am the King. Where are the ones who are arrogant and proud?". Then Allah's Messenger peace be upon him started swaying left and right until I saw the pulpit move from its bottom until I said that it is going to collapse with the Prophet peace be upon him on it.
Authenticity of Second Hadeeth
Yahya bin Ayub: He has narrated hadeeths in Sunan Al Nisaa'i. Ibn Hajar and others said that he is saduq according to Shaykh Al Albani in his article Hawl Iftaar Al Saa'im Qabal Safarihi Ba'd Al Fajr. Him being saduq is affirmed in Al Kaashif fi Ma'rifat man lahu Riwaayah fi Al Kitub Al Sittah, Volume 2, page 361, no. 6135. Al Mizzi in his Al Tahdheeb Al Kamal cited Al Nisai saying that he is a righteous man (saalih).
Sa'eed bin Abi Maryam: His full name is Sa'eed bin Al Hakam bin Muhammad bin Salim. He is a Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim narrator.
Ibn Abi Haazim: He is Abdul Aziz ibn Abi Haazim. Check the link to Saheeh Bukhari that I put for Sa'eed, Ibn Abi Haazim is there. He is a Saheeh Muslim
narrator as well.
Abu Haazim: He is Ibn Abi Haazim's father. He is Abi Haazim Salamah bin Dinar. Just like his son he is a Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim narrator. Refer to the links that I just provided to Saheeh Bukhari and Saheeh Muslim and you will find him there.
As for 'Obaidillah, he is there in the Musnad Ahmad narration and we saw that Shaykh Al Arna'ut said he was a narrator for both Bukhari and Muslim.
This isnad is inshallah saheeh, if not hasan. Furthermore, we have the shaahid (i.e. corroboration) from the Musnad Ahmad hadith so this hadeeth is definitely saheeh inshallah.
What Is Derived From These Hadeeths?
Notice the parts that I have put in bold where Ibn Umar said that after the Prophet (peace be upon him) talked about how Allah will grasp the heavens and the earth on the Day of Judgement with His Right Hand the Prophet (peace be upon him) would make an action with his hand. This is similar to the hadeeth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) pointed to his eyes and ears to affirm sight and hearing for Allah (something Asharis would agree with). Using that same logic, the Prophet (peace be upon him) is affirming the attribute of the Hand for Allah. If we didn't know the meaning of Hand (according to Asharis Tafweed Al Ma'na) or if we were to interpret it metaphorically as power or something else (according to Asharis Ta'weel) then it would have been meaningless and misleading for the Prophet (peace be upon him) to make an action with his hand.
If the meaning of Hand was not known for Allah then why on earth would the Prophet (peace be upon him) use his hand for emphasis? The same logic applies to ta'weel.
This is "clear" and "powerful" evidence that the Prophet (peace be upon him) recognized that Allah literally has a Hand (unlike that of creation of course).
Last edited by - Qatada -; 02-01-2011 at 01:50 PM.
If I am allowed to quote them, there are fairly obvious parallels in Genesis 2:19 "whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name" and the Midrash on Genesis: "God said to the Angels, "His wisdom is greater than yours." Then brought he before them beasts, cattle and birds and asked for their names but they knew them not. But when he created man ... etc."format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
We as Muslims stay neutral on issues of previous scripture when it does not contradict the Islamic sources [Qur'an and the Prophetic Sunnah/teachings].
So my response would be accordingly; I simply don't know.
Since I don't know what you mean by your question, what you want to find out through the answer, I can't answer accordingly. Maybe you can give me some insight into the intent of your original question?
Peace.
Salaamformat_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
If Allah meant the following saying metaphorically;
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ ۖ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَThen what is so special about Adam? If Allah created Adam with a metaphorical hand [or 'power'], then didn't He also create Iblees [satan] with His power also?
[ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands [bi yaday]? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?" [Saad 38:75]
The fact that He made Adam with His hands showed the special status of Adam in comparison to the other creatures.
Furthermore, if someone said that this is anthromorphosism - they are wrong. Because we affirm that Allah has hands [as He said], yet we do not say it is like a human Hand. It would only be anthromorphosism if we said Allah's hand is a human hand.
Similarly, if you said that a human has a face, it is not the same face of a bird. Although you call both faces by the same term; Face.
Allah says;
لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ ۖ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُThere is not anything like Him (whatsoever), and He is The Ever-Hearing, The Ever-Seeing.[as-Shuraa 42:11]So we affirm what Allah attributed for Himself, without distorting the meanings.
Thats not true - and using ahad hadiths isnt a sound basis of establishing that Allah swt has hands literally anyway has you copy and paste I will give you a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1D_1hcJbuk
I think its clear that salaf didnt interpreat the Hand of Allah literally of merthophorically - they didnt interpreat it fullstop - and thats the best way - If you watch it from 21.40 He'll explain the view of the Salaf - If you watch it from 19:30 he'll explain about the hand.
The salaf did not do Ta'weel full stop - simply because they didnt have to it was simple Allah swt said it they accepted it - the Ta'weel of the Asharis and the Hanbalis came later to counter the various groups that developed later - mainly the anthromorphists.If the meaning of Hand was not known for Allah then why on earth would the Prophet (peace be upon him) use his hand for emphasis? The same logic applies to ta'weel.
peace
Last edited by Zafran; 02-01-2011 at 07:48 PM.
I'm confused, how come ahad hadiths can't be used :S are they not sahih?
asalam alykum
Brother Zafran, that is a strange response.
1) Allah said He created Adam with His hands (yaday) - why did He say that to Iblees -about -Adam- if Allah also created Iblees with His power?
2 - Since when did the people of Sunnah reject Ahad ahadith? Did you know that the famous hadith of Jibreel on Islam, Emaan and Ihsan (on the authority of Umar b. Al Khatab) is also ahad?
I don't like debating this issue too much, but the original point of me quoting the ayah was to refute human evolution. So lets stick to that.
I don't understand is Allah lying when he said he created adam with his hands? You said it's unclear verse but it doesn't understand how, Allah said he created Adam with his two hands what is unclear, am confused
The ancestors of apes were the Jews.
The Quran tells us of what Allah did to those Jews who broke the Sabbath and of the humiliating
punishment he gave to those specific Jews in the time of Moses!
002.065
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
005.060
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Salaam brother actually the Ancestors of apes were not Jews rather the apes did live even before the time of the existence of Jews. When a Companion asked Prophet Muhammad (Saw) about the above Verses that Jews became apes and swines to which the Prophet (saw) confirmed that apes even existed before the Jews and other nations, which means their ancestors are not humans.
A person said: Allah's Messenger, what about those apes and swine which suffered metamorphosis? Thereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Verily, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, did not destroy a people or did not torment a people, and let their race grow. Apes and swine had been even before that (when the deniers of truth were tormented and suffered metamorphosis). (Kitab Ul Qadr, Sahih Muslim)
So we can assume from this Tradition and the commentators of the Quran say that, this metamorphosis happened to a group amongst the Jews and not all jews, and that group perished as time passed by. Such nation who are Punished by Allah (swt) become extinct, their race stops and Allah (swt) saved those from among them who are righteous.
Other commentators are of the view that this metamorphosis was not actual rather by turning them in to Apes and Swines, Allah (swt) changed their hearts and minds and they became lustful like the swines and wild like the apes. And Allah (swt) knows best. May Allah (swt) keep us safe from His Punishment and Forgive us. Ameen.
Salaam
salaamformat_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Its not strange at all - its clear - did you watch the video
1 - You dont seem to understand what I said - I accept that verse but do not do Ta'weel just like the salaf didnt - neither literal nor metaphorical - did you realy watch the video??
2 - Yes only through Ijma - the hadiths you provided have not been used by any scholars that I am aware of expect the website that you posted - Hadiths like the intercession of the prophet or other well accpeted ahad hadiths have been used because there is a preety much a consensus on them - However the hadiths you used I'm preety sure not all the schaolrs of sunnah wa Jammah will accept them as I am well aware (as I believe you are as well) that your view is not the only view out there within sunnah wal Jammah
Yes lets go back to the topic But it would be nice if you actually look at what I have posted (the video) rather then just basing your entire aqeada on well 2 hadiths that rarely get mentioned when it comes to aqeada.
Your right it is a grey issue
peace
Last edited by Zafran; 02-01-2011 at 10:36 PM.
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