One of the reasons I joined this forum is because a friend asked me to ask Muslims why there is so much violence surrounding the Islamic faith. I promised I would and here it is.
(Since I've posted this in another thread this morning, it has been suggested there that I post it elsewhere. This forum seemed most appropriate for moving the question)
Media loves to tell about "islamic" terrorism but is quiet about terrorism about others or doesn´t call it as terrorism. Here are what kind of terrorism acts zionists have made today for example:
- Israeli forces wound 4, arrest 2 in Silwan (Occupied Jerusalem)
- Israeli troops attack Hares villagers, raze two of their homes (Salfit/the West Bank)
- IOF soldiers raid southern Gaza
- Doctor arrested from his clinic in Jerusalem
. Al-Khalil: Eight villages threatened with demolition (= Hebron)
I bet you never see these acts of terrorism against civilians from your media.
However, for the reasons described above i think it's not at all surprising that many people have made that association. From the point of view of the information available to them, it's hard to think anything else. (Which also means that new information might lead people to a different viewpoint.)
Perhaps you are right, as propaganda and biased information plays a large role. On the other hand, we are living in an age where information has become much easier to access as a result of the internet, so independent inquiry is not as difficult.
Although many Muslims share your view that Islam is fundamentally peaceful (which is great) it's a big world and some do not. Some of them in fact pursue their objectives through violence and they seem to believe that it is endorsed/permitted by Islam.
But it still does not mean there is such a thing as 'Islamic terrorism', because that implies Islam teaches terrorism. It is individual Muslims who commit terrorism, not Islam. It is the driver who should be blamed and not the car.
You might say they're not really Muslims,
I did not.
I think many westerners understand this is an issue and they don't always support their government's action in various Muslim countries. But a bomb placed on the London Underground in retaliation kills indiscriminately - Muslim sympathisers or antagonists alike, and of course other Muslims. Naturally, people deduce from this that they are all targets, no matter what they think.
My responses to your statements were not intended to justify terrorist acts. A bomb that kills innocent civilians is wrong, regardless of what their views were. But I am not sure why you mentioned indiscriminate killing, because it is not a crime unique to Muslims.
Am I misunderstanding or is this a 9/11 conspiracy reference? I'm not sure where you personally stand on the issue. Obviously, anyone who thinks the Zionists did it, also believes there is no case at all for Muslims to answer. In which case we might as well not bother with this debate.
You are misunderstanding. Many Muslims are arrested with neither evidence nor claim suggesting they are involved in terrorist activities. Mere actions like shopping for camping items are causes for arrests.
Maybe so...but again the most famous events from a western viewpoint (and I'm talking specifically about the western perspective) do seem to have explicit Islamic claims and links. Apart from the generic Zionist conspiracy theories, I haven't seen much argument against this point of view - do you have any other rebuttals?
Even if we say that the 'most famous events' had Islamic claims, does it justify branding all crimes by Muslims as religiously motivated?
Yes - but do they actually accept that it was committed by Muslims?
They condemn the action regardless of whether those responsible for it were Muslims or non-Muslims.
If you're talking about state-level actions (invasions etc) then of course this a legitimate matter for debate. But again, it's an issue in itself. It might explain Muslim terrorist motivations, but it doesn't help understand the reasons behind the negative image of Islam in the west. In this thread, I'm not trying to analyse why Muslims may or may not have committed acts of violence. I'm trying to explain why the west sees it that way.
I'm not presenting anything as a motivation for terrorism. I'm simply saying that it's incredibly one-sided to think all Muslims are terrorists because of the image of the falling towers, while even worse acts of terrorism towards Muslims seem to go unnoticed. I know you are trying to provide the western perspective, but I am trying to show that such a view is not as easy to accept and that the proposed reasons behind it are not sound.
Greetings Eric, we've never directly talked before. There are so many responses here I won't say much now.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
World justice is not the same as justice only for Americans.
If you re-read my posts, I hope you will see where I've tried to make it clear that all my comments are about a specific subject only ie the reasons for the negative image of Islam in the west. Not whether it is 'fair', but why it exists. The failings of US foreign policy are many, but this doesn't answer the question.
For the record, I strongly disagree with and condemn a wide range of US foreign policy actions. It is extremely disappointing to me that a country which sees itself as acting in the name of world freedom should get it so wrong, so often. They are not the worst, they are not a great Satan, but because the US is powerful, its failings have far more impact on the world than anyone else's.
However, in my view, there really is little value in me adding to the overwhelming chorus of disapproval which the US already receives in this forum. What can I say that hasn't been said already? If I were writing in a US-friendly forum, it would be different.
Media loves to tell about "islamic" terrorism but is quiet about terrorism about others or doesn´t call it as terrorism. Here are what kind of terrorism acts zionists have made today for example:
- Israeli forces wound 4, arrest 2 in Silwan (Occupied Jerusalem)
- Israeli troops attack Hares villagers, raze two of their homes (Salfit/the West Bank)
- IOF soldiers raid southern Gaza
- Doctor arrested from his clinic in Jerusalem
. Al-Khalil: Eight villages threatened with demolition (= Hebron)
I bet you never see these acts of terrorism against civilians from your media.
Why all this violence against unarmed civilians?
I don't think the media is all one-sided here in Ireland. Negative stories about Israel do get aired. There is an instinctive tendency here to identify with underdogs. (Actually, you can see this in the UK too.)
In fact, there is overall a fairly ambiguous attitude to Israel going back decades. In the north some Irish nationalists have specifically identified with the plight of the Palestinians.
I don't think any European country has anything like the same bias towards Israel that would be common in the US.
If I were writing in a US-friendly forum, it would be different.
I don't think this forum is not US-friendly. A lot of us here are Americans. Including myself. There's a difference between disagreeing with U.S. foreign policy and not liking the U.S. as a whole. There are plenty of non-Muslims who disagree with U.S. foreign policy but that doesn't mean they're anti- U.S. and I don't believe it applies to this forum either. It's a place to discuss Islam after all and if the U.S. does something wrong, why does it automatically mean we're not "US-friendly" for voicing disapproval with that? That makes no sense.
"The Great Satan" is political rhetoric that people love to write in foreign policy textbooks to create a boogeyman and it seems to me you fell for it. Yes, it was said, and some leaders in Muslim nations have charaterized it as such but you're mistaken if you think all Muslims think of every American that way. There are Muslims living in America too.
Gosh, do you really think so? I have read many posts that condemn the US in every possible detail - foreign policy, society, you name it. I know that there are many US citizens here, but that doesn't seem to make any difference. I'm struggling to think of anything I've read that's positive...have I missed all the positive stuff?
But it still does not mean there is such a thing as 'Islamic terrorism', because that implies Islam teaches terrorism. It is individual Muslims who commit terrorism, not Islam. It is the driver who should be blamed and not the car.
I totally agree with the second half of this.
However, I don't see why the phrase 'Islamic terrorism' necessarily implies that Islam teaches terrorism - partly because I can't think of what other phrase the media could reasonably use to describe a terrorist group that says its acting in the name of Islam? Is there another term?
Gosh, do you really think so? I have read many posts that condemn the US in every possible detail - foreign policy, society, you name it. I know that there are many US citizens here, but that doesn't seem to make any difference. I'm struggling to think of anything I've read that's positive...have I missed all the positive stuff?
And whats this got to do with anything? Whatever Americans do in their own country is their own business.
Lets take Japan, how come nobody talks about Japan? Maybe its because they don't have the burning urge to bring 'freedom', 'democracy' 'human rights' 'etc etc etc ad infinitum' to the benighted 3rd world through the barrel of a gun. They got out of this mentality after their defeat in World War 2.
The point is American foreign policy has having a horrendous impact on the Muslim world, naturally were going to focus on it.
The foreign policy of the USA needs enemy. When USSR collapsed they lost old one and took muslims as new enemy. Before communists were bad guys, now muslims replace this place.
After muslims some others will become enemy number one.
What in some islamic countries have? Oil? Natural gas? Uranium? Some natural resources the USA needs so badly. And takes it by force if needed. Officially the USA of course tells it brings democracy to those countries...
However, I don't see why the phrase 'Islamic terrorism' necessarily implies that Islam teaches terrorism - partly because I can't think of what other phrase the media could reasonably use to describe a terrorist group that says its acting in the name of Islam? Is there another term?
If a terrorist group claimed they were acting in the name of America, would we have to call it American terrorism?
Gosh, do you really think so? I have read many posts that condemn the US in every possible detail - foreign policy, society, you name it. I know that there are many US citizens here, but that doesn't seem to make any difference. I'm struggling to think of anything I've read that's positive...have I missed all the positive stuff?
If it's not everybody else then it's you as it goes- I would consider what part I played bringing out the worst in everyone!
But I don't think it does - unless they all explicitly endorsed it, of course. Are we just disagreeing about terminology?
Yes, I think so. Going back to the above, I think it's more accurate to say Muslim terrorist than Islamic terrorism. Islam, as a religion, is perfect and just like the good car, should not be blamed. A Muslim, however, can act rightly or wrongly and, like the bad driver, is capable of committing actions that are not endorsed by Islam. This is where my disagreement is stemming from.
Yes, I think so. Going back to the above, I think it's more accurate to say Muslim terrorist than Islamic terrorism. Islam, as a religion, is perfect and just like the good car, should not be blamed. A Muslim, however, can act rightly or wrongly and, like the bad driver, is capable of committing actions that are not endorsed by Islam. This is where my disagreement is stemming from.
I see where you're coming from and I agree with it.
Greetings Eric, we've never directly talked before. There are so many responses here I won't say much now.
Greetings and peace be with you also Independent;
I hope you will see where I've tried to make it clear that all my comments are about a specific subject only ie the reasons for the negative image of Islam in the west.
As an individual we are either a part of that negative image, or we are against it, I don’t think there can be any neutral ground.
However, in my view, there really is little value in me adding to the overwhelming chorus of disapproval which the US already receives in this forum. What can I say that hasn't been said already? If I were writing in a US-friendly forum, it would be different.
Justice is justice, it should not matter what forum we are on.
In the spirit of praying for peace on God's Earth.
A Muslim, however, can act rightly or wrongly and........is capable of committing actions that are not endorsed by Islam.
"Not endorsed by Islam". Yet Muslims claim that it is. Who should I believe?
After that movie was released, Australian Muslims rioted and destroyed property. They are 10,000 miles from California! The Australian govt condemned the movie! They were wearing muslim clothes, muslim beards and carried flags with quotes from the Koran.
They carried signs "Behead those who insult Islam".
They carried signs "Behead those who insult Islam".
Ain't amazing all their signs looked identical? I love nothing more than radicals that get their banners printed at the home depot..Must have been a discount going..
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