These extremely good and kind people will go to hell?! Yes, as they were not good and kind enough to worship their Lord who created them and gave them everything. In fact, these “good people” had elements of arrogance that we are unaware of.
These extremely good and kind people will go to hell?! Yes, as they were not good and kind enough to worship their Lord who created them and gave them everything. In fact, these “good people” had elements of arrogance that we are unaware of.
It's this kind of thing that really turns me (and lots of others) off religion. Someone who does a lot of good is destined to go to hell for eternity because he wasn't the right religion, yet if he'd lived a quiet, simple life and had prayed his 5 prayers and practised islam he'd be going to heaven - although he wouldn't have had the positive impact that he had nor helped the thousands that he did. It just makes no sense - is god really that spiteful? I just cannot believe that an all-powerful being could be so petty.
oh wow! really?
This right here is why some people turn away from religion.
When I was a Christian, I believed that if you didn't believe in Jesus as your lord and savior, that you were destined for Hell. According to many Christians, who think the same way that you do, I am now bound for hell because I am now a Muslim. I am glad that I can still practice Islam, try to live a good life and help others but not be narrow-minded towards others.
It's this kind of thing that really turns me (and lots of others) off religion. Someone who does a lot of good is destined to go to hell for eternity because he wasn't the right religion,
Your post implies that mankind is left to fend for themselves without any indication as to what is right and wrong. However, God has not only given us a choice but continues to help us make the right choices. I am not sure if you read the article, but it explains: 'Allah is the most Just and helps everyone submit to Him by disposing his nature to pure monotheism...'
yet if he'd lived a quiet, simple life and had prayed his 5 prayers and practised islam he'd be going to heaven - although he wouldn't have had the positive impact that he had nor helped the thousands that he did.
How do you know that he wouldn't have the same, if not more, positive impact? You are looking at this through a limited understanding of what a positive impact can be. For example, a person who prays to God can supplicate for the benefit of not only the people he can reach, but the whole world, as well as all those who come after him and many who came before him. Yes, a believer can benefit people even after they have died. This is just one example how a positive impact can occur on many levels that we may not realise.
Moreover, if a person spends his life working for the people, he can expect reward from the people. But why should he expect reward from God if he was not working for God?
It just makes no sense - is god really that spiteful? I just cannot believe that an all-powerful being could be so petty.
The same All-Powerful God who brought each of us into existence, clothes and feeds us every day, enables us to function on every level from being able to breathe, relieve ourselves and walk without difficulty, despite whether a person believes in Him or not, and continues to be merciful... is it really a petty matter to ignore His rights? The spite is really with the person who refuses to acknowledge all these favours, not the One who is continuously bestowing them.
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
But Nelson Mandela did believe in God and worshipped him. Just no the same way you do.
When I was a Christian, I believed that if you didn't believe in Jesus as your lord and savior, that you were destined for Hell. According to many Christians, who think the same way that you do, I am now bound for hell because I am now a Muslim. I am glad that I can still practice Islam, try to live a good life and help others but not be narrow-minded towards others.
Free Your Mind
Free our minds from what, exactly? The article gives the examples of Abu Talib and Abdullah ibn Jud'aan. Clearly, there are people who are destined for Hell as a result of rejecting the true guidance. The narrow-mindedness would be to assume a good life is what you personally think is a good life and to ignore what Allaah and His Messenger have taught us in that regard.
Well, I think original article shown tremendous arrogance.
Where it claims that "these extremely good and kind people [...] were not good and kind enough to worship their Lord who created them and gave them everything. In fact, these “good people” had elements of arrogance that we are unaware of", it demonstrates arrogance itself.
On of the things I respect and appreciate about Islam is it's humility in never assuming that we are 'good enough' to be accepted by God and that we need to throw ourselves utterly at his mercy.
But that humility does not seem to stretch far enough to consider that perhaps some of those who are not called Muslims (or don't call themselves so) may actually have the qualities God looks for in us.
Perhaps there are even non-Muslims who are greater in the eyes of God than some Muslims are?
Perhaps we can all learn from somebody like Nelson Mandela?
Further, the article says "Abu Talib clearly refused to submit to Allah despite admitting that Muhammad (SallAllahu‘alayhi wasalam) is the Prophet of Allah". That seems to imply that those who are not called to Islam are actively refusing to submit to God.
Again, a very arrogant view. We should be very careful not to think of ourselves better or 'more guided' or 'chosen' over others!
Interestingly I found this picture of Mandela. Perhaps that will appease those who claim that only Muslims will gain God's favour.
Your post implies that mankind is left to fend for themselves without any indication as to what is right and wrong. However, God has not only given us a choice but continues to help us make the right choices.
And yet religion continues to be dictated by culture - if you are born in a muslim country you are likely to be muslim, in a christian country a christian etc. So your place of birth is far more important in these matters than god's word. So god gives you a choice, depending on where you're born.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
The same All-Powerful God who brought each of us into existence, clothes and feeds us every day, enables us to function on every level from being able to breathe, relieve ourselves and walk without difficulty, despite whether a person believes in Him or not, and continues to be merciful... is it really a petty matter to ignore His rights?
And what about those that he doesn't feed and clothe? Those who die naked and starving? Do they have the right to reject god?
I've said before that I actually see no reason why there couldn't be a god, we simply cannot say 100% one way or the other. But I really think it betrays a level of human arrogance and insecurity when we apply such human emotions as vengeance and hate to a god and say that he flexes his muscles to impose his wrath on those who are not the same as you, be you muslim ,christian, hindu or whatever.
And what about those that he doesn't feed and clothe? Those who die naked and starving? Do they have the right to reject god?
Strange you should say that on a Mandela thread, it was he who said:
"Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings.
You blame God and hate him for something you and your like are responsible for?
It is worrisome on so many levels that you are a teacher if this is as far as you're educated I wonder of the future of the people who come under your tutelage!
.You blame God and hate him for something you and your like are responsible for?
Of course I don't hate god - I don't believe in him. Atheists don't hate god at all, that's like suggesting I hate pink unicorns.
format_quote Originally Posted by جوري
It is worrisome on so many levels that you are a teacher if this is as far as you're educated I wonder of the future of the people who come under your tutelage!
Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin. (4:48)
So, the one who dies with such a belief will not go to Heaven no matter what good deeds s/he may have done. Such people are rewarded for all their good deeds in this world and have no share in the Mercies of Allah in the Hereafter.
Allah also says about the People of the Book (Jews and Christians): If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient...
They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.
And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous.
Indeed, those who disbelieve - never will their wealth or their children avail them against Allah at all, and those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.
The example of what they spend in this worldly life is like that of a wind containing frost which strikes the harvest of a people who have wronged themselves and destroys it. And Allah has not wronged them, but they wrong themselves. (3:110-117)
So, God knows a person's inner beliefs and He sees their actions and He will judge them accordingly.
I have difficulty with this article, as the author speaks as if he knows, without a shadow of doubt, of Nelson Mandela's religious convictions at the time of his death.
While it is true that he followed the Christian faith in his early life, and makes reference to its teachings in his autobiography, Long Walk to Freedom - this was back in 1995.
I am not aware of him making any indication of his religious affiliation since then, and esp. not after 2004, when he spent very little time in the public eye (a period of almost 9 long years).
This is in contrast to people such as e.g. Mother Teresa or the previous Popes - who openly declared their beliefs, until their passing.
Allah truly knows best what resided in his heart over the past few years.
I really wish we can leave it at this, with regards to Nelson Mandela in particular, not as a result of being in denial, (or because I have a soft spot for him).....but because in this case, we are merely speculating about that which we do not know with complete certainty.
I think this thread is stupid and should be closed - We're trying to judge a guy that non of us knew personally. Pure speculation. The guys gone and left a mark that most Muslims never will.
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
I have always wondered about this, does every good person, I mean genuinely good, have to be a secret closet muslim?. Let's just apprecoate the good he's done in this world and leave his fate to be decided by God, after all no one really knows him or us than our Creator.
But that humility does not seem to stretch far enough to consider that perhaps some of those who are not called Muslims (or don't call themselves so) may actually have the qualities God looks for in us.
If one continues this line of thinking, what would be the purpose of religion, if all that is required is having good qualities? What is stopping you calling yourself a Muslim if your definition of humility is as broad as this?
Perhaps there are even non-Muslims who are greater in the eyes of God than some Muslims are?
Indeed, for the righteous with their Lord are the Gardens of Pleasure. Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals? What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn That indeed for you is whatever you choose? Or do you have oaths [binding] upon Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that indeed for you is whatever you judge? Ask them which of them, for that [claim], is responsible. Or do they have partners? Then let them bring their partners, if they should be truthful.[Al-Qalam: 34-41]
Then is one who was a believer like one who was defiantly disobedient? They are not equal. [32: 18]
Or do those who commit evils think We will make them like those who have believed and done righteous deeds - [make them] equal in their life and their death? Evil is that which they judge. And Allah created the heavens and earth in truth and so that every soul may be recompensed for what it has earned, and they will not be wronged.[45: 21-22]
And We did not create the heaven and the earth and that between them aimlessly. That is the assumption of those who disbelieve, so woe to those who disbelieve from the Fire. Or should we treat those who believe and do righteous deeds like corrupters in the land? Or should We treat those who fear Allah like the wicked? [38: 27-28]
Perhaps we can all learn from somebody like Nelson Mandela?
I don't think anyone has argued otherwise.
Further, the article says "Abu Talib clearly refused to submit to Allah despite admitting that Muhammad (SallAllahu‘alayhi wasalam) is the Prophet of Allah". That seems to imply that those who are not called to Islam are actively refusing to submit to God.
In the very words you have quoted, it explicitly says that Abu Talib admitted that Muhammad was the Prophet of Allah. Clearly, his case is different from someone who had never received the message of Islam.
Again, a very arrogant view. We should be very careful not to think of ourselves better or 'more guided' or 'chosen' over others!
Do you think it is wrong of Muslims to believe their religion is the only true guidance?
Interestingly I found this picture of Mandela. Perhaps that will appease those who claim that only Muslims will gain God's favour.
How does the picture show that a non-Muslim will be granted entry to Paradise?
If one continues this line of thinking, what would be the purpose of religion, if all that is required is having good qualities? What is stopping you calling yourself a Muslim if your definition of humility is as broad as this?
Prior to joining this forum, I have always assumed that morality, or virtuous behaviour, was the same no matter who does it, under whatever religion, or no religion. In history you sometimes see those wonderful moments when people from opposing faiths, or traditions, recognise the same qualities that they admire and strive for in their own religion.
So, although this may not be the Islamic way, in principle I don't agree at all that such a recognition would be to devalue or make irrelevant religion itself.
And yet religion continues to be dictated by culture - if you are born in a muslim country you are likely to be muslim, in a christian country a christian etc. So your place of birth is far more important in these matters than god's word. So god gives you a choice, depending on where you're born.
This argument is negated by the fact that there are Muslims in all parts of the globe. In countries that were predominantly Christian, a huge number of native people are converting to Islam. On this forum itself we have had teenagers wanting to become Muslim and fearing the reaction of their families. God guides whom He wills regardless of their birth place.
And what about those that he doesn't feed and clothe? Those who die naked and starving? Do they have the right to reject god?
Were they created by someone else? Even the poorest person has much to be thankful for. God tests us all in different ways - even the Prophets, the best of mankind, suffered through immense hardships such as poverty and illness, yet they were the most grateful and obedient of mankind.
But I really think it betrays a level of human arrogance and insecurity when we apply such human emotions as vengeance and hate to a god and say that he flexes his muscles to impose his wrath on those who are not the same as you, be you muslim ,christian, hindu or whatever.
In Islam, it is not befitting for God to be likened to His creation in any way. So your image and assumption of God experiencing human emotions is something you seem to have imagined, not what has been suggested here. Is it not the greatest arrogance to dictate to God what He should and should not do?
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