Isa and The father

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Straight into a post, eh? No introduction?

I think there are many threads about this topic in the past. But I'm not so clear what it is you are trying to say.

Wishing you a great stay.

format_quote Originally Posted by PassByTheWord

isa and the ther are not the same person but one in their conclusion.

Greetings PassByTheWord,

Welcome to the Forum!

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean in this part of what you wrote. Could you clarify it please? Thank you!

May God Guide you to ever-deeper understandings of His Glory and His Will.

I think he meant "Isa and the father..." just the f and the a not typed in.

format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill

I think he meant "Isa and the father..." just the f and the a not typed in.

Assalaamu alaikum greenhill,

Yes, I caught this part. It's the next bit I'm not quite sure about.

(smile) Jazakallah khairan, anyway.

format_quote Originally Posted by PassByTheWord

I beleive based o the scripturws we can easily conclude that isa and the ther are not the same person but one in their conclusion. It is said elsewhere in the scripture that even isa himself will be submitted under god so that ...... Also i beleive that the father had a relationship in terms of loving him like a son like a father loves a son. These are my conclusions so far on what i have been studying on the subject. isa did say the father the greater than I. He also said to the apostles when they argued over who was the greatest he said that is set aside by the father. Also he said that he does not even know the hour of his return nor the angels in heaven but only the father.

based on what scriptures? Isa was a person, but God can never be a person, He is God! He isn't even a He, just God!

there are great many "scriptures", few are original or authentic. any time time you would like to discuss those, i have time. textural criticism of "the bible" is a very in-depth topic. but it can show you how "Christians" changed the messages in their writings over the 60 years the NT was written, which began 20 years after Isa went to heaven. absolutely none of the NT is believed to be written by anyone that actually knew Isa.

the study of "scripture" is fascinating. much is revealed studying the evolution of the christian message and theology.

the only fully original and authentic "scripture" possessed by mankind is the Qur'an.

format_quote Originally Posted by PassByTheWord

So then i have a question how were we created? how did the cosmos become. fascinating.

ooh, curveball!

this is a straightforward answer:

“Is not (Allah), Who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the like of them? Yes, indeed! He is the All-Knowing Supreme Creator.”

Surah Yaseen:81

please be aware that "He" used in reference to Allah, does not indicate gender. there is no male/female Allah, just Allah.

Hmm I believe the term heavenly father or holy father should not be taken literally as Allah is not a man or father, as a creator is not a father. I believe the looking up and appealing to a heavenly father is from very ancient times when the sky was thought of as a male god and the earth or ground was thought of as a goddess (female god). The earth is fruitful but only with the rain of the sky. This was way back before irrigation was invented. Some of the Maori people still believe in these gods.

Assalamu'alaikum wr wb,
A logical possibility of how this misunderstanding/misconstruction may have come to pass can be derived from the bible itself, a baby's (as) mother (as) appears to her people out of wedlock and the people to whom the law was revealed are amazed, (the Quran explains that) the baby then speaks from the cradle to vindicate his mother and confirm that seeking the will and face of God is above the Law, (it makes sense that she was vindicated as she would otherwise have been punished according to Mosaic law), a hypocritical leadership appointed by pagan Rome (who had recently invaded the land) is startled at tis event since they use the law to serve the devil.
The baby's arrival strengthens the faith of the people and a full blown intifada is taking place (sicariis, zealots and more -somewhat like al qaeda and taliban).
Rome compromises and decides to let the boy choose his way while watching him carefully, sweetens the (nonviolent) pharisee tablighis and chief rabbi mollahs (since there's now no way of rendering the Mosaic law and belief system void in the face of such an awakening).

The pharisees and chief priests take on the role of pacifying the people and serving rome, and naturally take a belligerent stance against the Messiah and seek to discredit him, and despite knowing the truth, treat it as a compromised unseen and unmentioned taboo.

Here are a couple of encounters and slanders, this also proves they were sitting on street corners and following him about while breathing blasphemies and falsehoods in order to discredit him:

13They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.14And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.*
15Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.

16Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day.
Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
*17They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.

18But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
*19And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?

*20His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:*
21But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not:
he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. {hint hint}
22These*words*spake his parents, because they feared the Jews:
for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.*
23Therefore said his parents,
He is of age; ask him.

And here they devise against him and his mother (as) so he slips past their evil scheme without invalidating the law:

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.*2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,*
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.*
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
*6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
But Jesus stooped down, and with his*finger wrote on the ground,*as though he heard them not.*7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.*
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.*9And they which heard*it, being convicted by*their ownconscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest,*even*unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.*10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

He was like a man who had kindled a fire and God who had taken away their hearing and sight was extending them a rope of mercy, but they were doing their best to destroy themselves out of their rage at him by leaving God no choice. (the gospel of barnabas says he was drawing a mirror on the ground).

And here it shows that he was having to patiently endure their open disdain and desperate hate of him when they resorted to open abuse:

*37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
*38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him,
Abraham is our father.
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.*
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.*
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication;
we have one Father,*even*God.

With questions about who his father was (despite knowing the truth since his birth) and threatening accusations, coupled with the fact that they were under a pagan roman military occupation with soldiery everywhere and that it was "illegal" for people to confirm the truth openly, it's a logical possibility that an adopted term was slowly cemented since it appeared in so many places.
And God knows best.

19Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father?
Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
*20These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.*
23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.*
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe not that I am*he, ye shall die in your sins.
*25Then said they unto him, Who art thou?
And Jesus saith unto them, Even*the same*that I said unto you from the beginning.*
Abz quote {quite exasperating huh? He had given them an inspired public lecture at the beginning to which they had remained silent since the people demanded to hear him speak and so the priests gave him the stage, it was after that that they decided to openly ridicule and oppose him and then began their desparate plotting and threats} abz quote.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.*
43Why do ye not understand my speech?*even*because ye cannot hear my word.

Reminds me of the situation of winston from orwell's 1984.
Along with mottos like ignorance is strength and thought crime and the memory hole.

Does it seem implausible that such a construct was used in a place where it was unthinkable for a man to not know his father and walk safely and with leaders who seeing and saw not, hearing heard not, knowing knew not and yet falsely accused?

And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny:
Quran 4:156

They were confused as to his identity even then:

2Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.*3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
*4For*there is*no man*that*doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly.
If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
*5For neither did his brethren believe in him.

....
10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
*11Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?*
12And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him:
for some said, He is a good man:
others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.
13Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

Abz quote {they were all jews, believers and disbelievers among them - looks like ceaser and the pope did some editing in rome to avoid resentment} Abz quote.

25Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?
*26But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?*
27Howbeit we know this man whence he is:
but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.
*28Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.*29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.*30Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
*31And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this*man*hath done?

...40Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.41Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?*42Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?*43So there was a division among the people because of him.