Hello! I am a new poster here. I am a Ph.D. student in philosophy, and I tend to spend most of my time with medieval Christian and ancient Greek philosophy. I only have a superficial knowledge of Islam (though I have read Avicenna's Metaphysics of the Healing), and I was hoping that you guys could provide an Islamic perspective on certain problems that I raise. So, I'll give you what I think are very potent proofs for Islam's falsity, and I am hoping that you, if you are able, will be able to show me why these proofs don't work.
1. From what I understand, you guys believe that angels have bodies made of light, and that these things called "djinn" have bodies made of fire. But they're invisible. Fire and light are per se (essentially) visible. Isn't it a flat out contradiction to believe in invisible fire people?
2. Granted that it's not a contradiction to believe in invisible fire people, I have a further question about their bodies. I am assuming that, since they have bodies, they are therefore animals (body-soul composites). Are their bodies complex (made up of a diversity of organs), or are they relatively simple (for example, in the sense that a camp-fire is relatively simple...that is, not made up of individual "parts," so to speak, but is just one fire)? If they are complex, then how on earth does that work? What would it mean to have an eye or an ear made of light or fire? If their bodies are simple, then how are they able to see, hear, etc? The senses require complex bodily organs. If they don't sense, then what's the point of their having bodies?
3. From what I understand, you guys believe that martyrs enjoy bliss in a bodily paradise, where they shall indulge their carnal appetites for food, drink and sexual intercourse...without their bodies? How do you suppose that is supposed to work? Avicenna's answer is that good philosophers bypass these carnal delights altogether and partake of intelligible delights, whereas the ordinary, run of the mill Muslims who, nonetheless, lived good lives will enjoy these carnal delights...by imagining them. But this is, of course, false. Imagination requires bodily organs, and your martyrs are not currently united to their bodies. We can be quite sure of this. If you doubt this, go and check. I assure you, their bodies are still in (or on) the ground and, even if intact, are quite lifeless. So, in short, how are your martyrs supposed to eat the heavenly super fruit when they have neither mouth, tongue, throat nor stomach? How are they supposed to enjoy their 72 virgins when they have no reproductive organs?
4. Related to 3, granted that your bodily paradise actually existed, why on earth would that be the goal of Muslim striving? Why would your martyrs want that? We eat in order to keep ourselves alive as individuals, and sexual relations are to keep the species alive. Why should someone desire food or sexual intercourse when he has achieved immortality?
5. Supposing that your martyrs desired such a reward, wouldn't they rather deserve Hell? This would mean that they prefer carnal delights to God, who alone is to be loved and adored as a final end, and who alone is the ultimate "goal" of the rational creature.
6. And speaking of Heaven and Hell, how do Muslims propose to escape the fires of Hell? Even a single serious sin turns us away from God, makes us enemies of God, and merits everlasting punishment. You'll presumably tell me that God is merciful, but I'll reply that He is Justice Itself. Pray as much as you want, but if there is nothing to counterbalance the infinite debt of punishment that you have merited through your sins, then you have no escape from His righteous indignation.
7. Is it true that Mohommed says that it's sometimes OK to tell a lie? If so, he knew that telling a lie is always wrong, right?
Thanks in advance.
If you want to prove that Islam is false, it's very simple, just prove to us that God is not One.
Your list of questions, which generally shows your lack of knowledge, isn't really worth entertaining and doesn't really do much in it's attempt to prove Islam false.
Actually, that's the precise reason that I wanted to post the problems on a Muslim board. I don't know that much about Islam, but when I do hear things about Islam, it's invariably ridiculous. So, I can only come to the conclusion that:format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
1. Islam is just obviously false and its adherents just have no excuse for themselves or
2. I'm working from a complete misunderstanding of what you guys actually believe.
So, for my list of questions, where I am misrepresenting you (unintentionally, mind you) would you be willing to tell me what you actually do believe? For example, the questions about djinn come from an actual conversation that I had with a female Muslim undergraduate. I had been reading about how djinn are the basis for the popular "genie" concept (like, genie in a lamp), and I chanced actually to talk to a Muslim, and asked her about them. She said "Oh, djinn. Yeah, like, know how angels are made of light, and men are made of dirt? Well, djinn are made of fire," and she continued from there by saying that she's invisible.
And the 72 virgins and carnal paradise is popular "knowledge," and it's not even a recent thing. In the Summa Contra Gentiles, St. Thomas talks about how Mohommed offers believers carnal pleasures in the afterlife, and Kant criticizes "Mohommed's paradise" in the Critique of Practical Reason.
But the Quran isn't really high on my reading list (I have too much other stuff to get to first), and it's not like I really have Muslim experts, so to speak, among my friends and associates.
I was hoping to learn first hand what you guys actually think about these things?
Addendum to previous post: I can also add Avicenna to the list of people who thought that Mohommed promises believers carnal delights (as per my reference to the final books of the Metaphysics of the Healing). It's not without reason, I think, that Averroes (a Muslim philosopher) held the opinions that he did about the relationship between religion and philosophy (religion is a system of convenient stories to keep the masses in line; philosophy actually gets at reality).
Greetings Traditio,
Mmm, you said: But the Quran isn't really high on my reading list (I have too much other stuff to get to first)
(smile) But this is the first resource to look for answers to questions regarding Islam!
(smile) Can you imagine if a person came to you and started asking you random stuff about, say, Thomas Aquinas, and -hey- did he really levitate? And how could that be true? Because why would he need to escape through the window, why not just fly away…? And what is a saint, really, anyway? … and said to you that she couldn't be bothered to actually read your uninteresting philosophy books… Or is that theology? Or -hey- what's the difference anyway?... but could you please answer all her questions? …
What would you say? Could you really have a very fruitful discussion? Might you not suggest she get a little grounding in what she wanted to discuss, and order her thought a little?
(smile) Yes, you have a complete misunderstanding of what we believe. (gently) Based on some little snippets of hearsay and impressions of non-Muslims and translations of works that discuss elements that you don't understand the foundations of, you feel you know enough to ask some clever questions. I respect that you have a good grounding in your particular field, but if you want to approach God, you need to take your cap off and feel our human humbleness before His Infinite Love and Glory. (smile) As we all should (though too often we all are much too arrogant, you know. (twinkle) I know I am, for sure).
Please consider reading the Quran. Of course, you'll only be able to access it in an English translation for now, but these do give the honest seeker insights. (smile) I have found that when you seek God, He Makes it possible to find Him according to your abilities.
(smile) And then perhaps we could discuss about more arcane matters, if they are truly important to you.
May God, the Oft-Forgiving, have Mercy on us all.
Your not the first "Christian" who comes and asks questions befitting of an Atheist (also the questions that you pose go against Christianity too). But here are the following answers;-format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
1. We are made out of clay, but you can't tell that anymore, we are flexible and have blood pumping through our veins. So the Jinn people were made out of fire, they don't resemble fire just as we don't resemble clay. They look like people, it as per Christianity they also accept the existence of devils, that they cannot see either. Also in science, we cannot see all types of light. Allah only gives us knowledge which is beneficial and that helps us, if he was going to just talk about how things are made, and what they are like-then where would we find the time to talk about living a good life??? Of course it is not a problem to learn about things, that is what we can do in this world, but God is testing us, which will be judged on the Day of Judgement, so your not going to go to Paradise because you know what a whale shark looks like, but that by what good deeds you do.
Also here is an old thread about devils;-
Devils
2. Then why don't you say that about angels??? Not everything is about body and soul, it is rather that they have one body. Therefore when a human does evil, their soul becomes ugly-you cannot see this in this world due to their physical bodies, in regards to the devils, as there is not believed to be a soul, when they become evil, there physical forms turn ugly. They are openly evil in their world. Whereas in this world people hide behind good intentions.
3. As per Christianity, God created Prophet Adam peace be upon him's body in and he enjoyed eating with his wife-did he not famously eat an apple-as per Christian belief?? The reward in the hereafter is also physical, Paradise is already in existence, it is not in this world (its is not a dream, an illusion it is a real place). So then what are you saying that everything that you enjoy in this world is wrong?? Then you can go so far and say what is the point of being MAle or female in the next world either, we still retain our own sex identity. Being able to socialise with others is a priviledge, and have relations with, these don't go away ie your relatives. Then are you saying what God has allowed in this world has become a sin in the next??? How is it that Mary giving birth to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is an abnormal thing in the next world?? How is it that marriage, a good, blessed thing, just doesn't exist in the next world??
Also actually there are Christians who think they will become like angels in the next world-where do they claim this from???
4 & 5. We strive to be successful in the hereafter, which means having God pleased with us, if it was our only goal to get married and eat food in the next world, do you honestly think that we would be praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan, spending savings to go to Mecca, give to charity? Because by definition you are saying that the Muslims are materialistic, where materialistic people don't have much discipline, neither would they be willing to die in the name of Allah, but rather stay and enjoy the life of this world.
What is actually bizarre where you get some Christians say that they are going to to rule over others ie like Jehovah's witness, why would you need to rule over someone, when people are only enjoying their lives in the next world?
You yourself lie by saying that people only eat to survive and have sex to procreate, so if you where presented with delicious, sweet dishes, you would only choose the bland because it is sufficient??? You really expect people to believe that people only have sex to procreate?? So that then means if they only wanted 2 kids, and if the wife was successful in getting pregnant straightaway, they only have had sex twice in the whole of their lifetime???
6. God didn't say he created a new religion when he sent all the Prophets. So the message to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell was the same message given by the Prophets Noah, Moses, Job, Jonah, David, Solomon, Muhammad peace be upon them etc.
If we did not have Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, it is only obvious that we would not have been helped for the Christians for saying that God has taken himself a son (committing idol worship), and the Jews for also changing religion for saying that there is no Hell.
So as above to be successful is by following the Quran and the ways of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him (we don't differentiate between the Prophets, it is rather that we had benefit by his teachings).
7. It is important here for you to provide more details instead of just saying that you heard so an so say this, well then question them on what?? You can't just go around making broad statements in this regard. When Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him smashed the idols leaving the larger one, when the people questioned him, he said it was the large idol that smashed all the smaller ones, to teach, to prove. So what are you then going to say that he was wrong??
You talk about philosophy that it gets to the truth-when does it??? It brags about questioning things to make a show that your some sort of intellectual but are far from it. No Prophets were philosophers.
For example;-
Prophet Noah peace be upon him didn't say to the people I "think" there is a God, but he said there is one.
Prophet Noah peace be upon him didn't say to the people I "think" there is a Day of Judgement, but that there is one.
Prophet Noah peace be upon him didn't say to the people I "think" there is a Paradise, but that there is one.
Prophet Noah peace be upon him didn't say to the people I "think" there is a Hell, but that there is one.
God has provided this message that there is one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell, which he told the Prophets (hence also known as messengers of God) to give this message to the people, he never said that people need to spend ages when they don't know when they are going to die to find out the truth, when God has allowed the truth to be known and stand out from falsehood.
You were not there when God created the angels, neither do you yourself understand if you just sat and thought about the Jinn (as you need this information from those who understand)-so therefore philosophy doesn't lead to truth, as you require God to present this knowledge to the Prophets.
So back to your thread title, no we don't have any problems in Islam, as per what God stated the people who can lay claim on the Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him are those that follow after him, we worship the one God, sacrifice animals just as he did (where the Jews have confirmed that he built many houses of worship and the Kaaba in Mecca is one of them). You can't present yourself as a thinker anyhow, if your just going to post waffle by uneducated people and contradict your own beliefs.
Last edited by h-n; 01-11-2015 at 12:17 PM. Reason: spelling
Abz2000 liked this post
i think you kinda dodged a bullet there... no mention of how unrealistic the idea of god is.. or mention of god at all really.
apart from that its like many a thread on the forum.
well il take the same route apparently, scientifically speaking there are many ideas on how the world could literally be a computer simulation.. or other amazing concepts.
in terms of angels and demons and all things in between, you dont have to look towards religion... they are mentioned and described and even given character too in literature and media throughout history.
but you seem terribly grounded so im not sure you could rewire yourself to see the world any differently.
BeTheChange liked this post
Greetings Traditio,
You've asked some clever questions, and I hope you get some sensible answers soon. I've seen plenty of people try a similar approach over the years, and it's become clear that most respondents are just thinking about these things on a completely different level.format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
You'll get told that you're ignorant, that you don't know what you're talking about and that you don't know what Muslims really believe. When, in fact, as you can tell from the replies so far in this thread, the posters haven't really understood your questions in the first place.
Peace
Even for an atheist, if he wants to disprove Islam, all he has to do is to prove that there is no God.
Regardless of what you think of his questions, the bottom line is that it does nothing to the central core message of Islam. A person can be a muslim even if he only has basic knowledge of the existence of angels, the hereafter, ultimately what makes him muslim is his belief that God is One. So if you really one to disprove Islam then all you have to do is attack it's core. These questions, which claim to be "proof of the falsity of Islam" are mere red herrings.
I am afraid that you are mistaken. I am not an atheist; as a Catholic, I fully admit that God exists and is one, and that there are angels (I do, however, deny that angels naturally have bodies; angels are finite intellectual, spiritual substances). If I wanted to know that God is One, I have no need of Mohommed. Plato said that roughly a thousand years before Mohommed. If I wanted to know that angels exist, then, again, I have no need of Mohommed or Islam. Christianity teaches that.format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
You don't have to be a Muslim to believe that God exists and is Unity Itself. You don't even need religious revelation to know that. I can know that through the exercise of natural reason.
In addition to this truth, you also believe many other things:
1. That He made a special revelation to Mohommed.
2. That He authorized Mohommed to make war, to assassinate, etc.
I was making that statement in general and wasn't referring to you as an atheist.format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
Ah, so are you saying that you are in agreement with Islam's core message? That God is One? And that any concept that is other than "God is One" is incorrect?
I don't find it necessary to even refute whatever claims you may have made (burden of proof is on the one making claims anyay) but I would like to remind you of one forum rule, accusations of Islam without proof will not be tolerated. I personally have little patience for people who are irresponsible with their words and offer nothing of intellectual value.
Is your conclusion that angels do not have bodies based on your scripture or something you came up with yourself?format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
Do you believe that God is One, OR that God is Three?format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
Fair enough.format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
Catholics, Jews, Muslims and even the Neoplatonists are in complete agreement about this. I quote from Lumen Gentium: In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."Ah, so are you saying that you are in agreement with Islam's core message? That God is One? And that any concept that is other than "God is One" is incorrect?
With all due respect, I say right in the OP that I only have a superficial knowledge of OP. If I have ascribed doctrines to Islam which is not a part of Islam, it was my hope that I would be corrected with a true account. After all, how would I deceive a Muslim about Muslims believe?I don't find it necessary to even refute whatever claims you may have made (burden of proof is on the one making claims anyay) but I would like to remind you of one forum rule, accusations of Islam without proof will not be tolerated. I personally have little patience for people who are irresponsible with their words and offer nothing of intellectual value.
So, tell me: do you believe in invisible fire people?
It's a plain truth of natural reason. There is a natural "gradient," so to speak, in the natural order:Is your conclusion that angels do not have bodies based on your scripture or something you came up with yourself?
1. Purely corporeal creation (rocks, minerals, etc).
2. Living corporeal creation (plants).
3. Sensitive living corporeal creation (animals).
4. Rational sensitive living corporeal AND spiritual creation (man).
5. ______________________
6. God (infinite, uncreated, incorporeal/spiritual reality).
Midway between 4 and 6 there's a gap: finite, created incorporeal/spiritual reality. Those are angels.
If you imagine that there are invisible fire people or invisible light people, you aren't describing demons or angels or djinn or anything else. You're describing people with impossibly different kinds of bodies.
Do you believe that God is One, OR that God is Three?[/QUOTE]
My apologies, I just realized that I didn't answer your last point: I believe that God is one in essence/substance and being, but that, within the One God, there is a plurality of subsisting relations which do not divide the one essence/being of God.
format_quote Originally Posted by TraditioAre you referring to the Trinity? Where it is believed that Jesus is God, The Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God? If that is what you believe then there is a difference when I say that God is One and when you say God is One.format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
The proper etiquette of someone who is aware of his own lack of knowledge is to approach a subject humbly, not come into a forum saying "I believe I have proof why your religion is false.". You're wasting people's time. I have little patience for people who form questions based on assumptions.format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
Angels are beings of light that are created by God with the sole purpose of serving Him. Unlike humans, they do not have carnal desires which means that by their nature they cannot disobey God. We know that generally they are outside the realm of our empirical perceptions.
So when you say that it is a contradiction that they are beings of light yet they are invisible, it is plain incorrect.
When we say that we cannot see them does that mean that they are invisible the way The Invisible Man (or any other character that can be invisible) cannot be seen? Does it mean that we might one day be walking around and accidentally bump into an angel? Of course not. As I mentioned, we know that they are beings of light and are generally not perceivable to us through empirical means. You're committing an equivocation fallacy by equating the invisible and that which is outside our realm of perception, so your argument has already broken down.
The one using the term "invisible light people" and "invisible fire people" here is you, which you seem to came up with yourself. The problem with your response here is that you are saying that "through reason" you can know that angels spiritual beings, but that is actually not possible because you won't even know that angels existed if it weren't revealed to you through scripture, so how then can you claim to be able to know what sort of beings angels are through reason alone?format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
-----------
Back to the nature of God, you say that you believe God is One. But, if I were to ask you whether you believed that Jesus is God, would you say yes? If I asked you if The Father is God, would you say yes? If I asked you if the Holy Spirit is God, would you say yes? If you said yes to all three, then your belief would be God is Three, not God is One.
format_quote Originally Posted by TraditioAgain you go against the teachings of God, and contradict your own religion-Catholics believe that God is one of three, that he has taken himself a son-so you commit idol worship.format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
God is one meaning that there is no one like him, he doesn't have any parents or any children.
If there were other Gods, how can they keep their thoughts, actions hidden when the the God of the Worlds knows all?? So there is only one God. A God isn't created.
You claim again that angels don't have bodies, when what on earth do you think happens when the Archangel of Death comes and takes people away??? He has a form. And when the people are gathered on the Day of Judgement, after people have been resurrected. So instead of posting jargon, show people where it says that you have factual evidence knowing about angels. But the Christians say that the devil is a fallen angel, and that he procreates-but you are saying now he doesn't have a body. The devils follow people around and not only do they tell them to do bad, but they are able to effect the health of people-do you honestly think that when the devils follow people around, that they never touch a human?? The angels they don't just pass through people's bodies because they are made out of light, they are physical, where they touch and hold things. When the angel was asked to bring the substance to create Man he was able to do it-the substance didn't pass through him, the angels will be smiting people's backs on the Day of Judgement if they are going to Hell. The angels have the task of moving the wind etc. The angels visited Prophet Lut, Ibrahim peace be upon him etc in physical form in this world.
Paradise itself is a garden-are you now telling us that Catholics don't believe in a Paradise?? That there are no physical trees, birds, that they are all just an array of light???
You talk about Plato, talk about philosophy, lie about that your beliefs, your all over the place and at the same time, your obvious agenda is to try and discredit Islam and you have nothing. Why talk of Plato and reject the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, does it say from your religious teachings that Plato is a Prophet of God??
It is a fact that without the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, the middle east would have looked worse, you would have just built a mega tourist attraction. Prior to the arrival of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, Mecca etc was a mess, with idol worship, drinking and lewd conduct, the Jews and the Christians did not sort this out, as they changed their religion. As mentioned earlier we follow the teachings of all the Prophets, so if you accuse us of having a different religion when we follow the Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him, it is obviously yourselves that are not following the teachings of the Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him to worship the one God (which is where he does not delegate to anyone the judging on the Day of Judgement. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is not all seeing, or all hearing he is a Man.
Now without bringing in factual evidence about angels or anything else of substance where you mentioned, you now decide to attack us with something else, this is the way of evil, they used to go up to the Prophet to try and discredit him, when he gave an answer that they knew was correct, they didn't admit to it, but asked another question, and the answer was again right, then they would ask another (again to try and discredit him), and then walk away displeased after they couldn't find any faults.
The Jews were left wandering around the desert because they refused to fight, at the time of Prophet Moses peace be upon him. As per the teachings even in Judaism, we are allowed to have capital punishment for people who murder, people who commit adultery etc, it is also here that people who fought against the Muslims (who debar the Muslims from the way of worship), we are permitted to fight back. As per the teachings of the Prophet.
So if you say that assassination and fighting is wrong, then you are saying that when King David peace be upon him was wrong when he slew Goliath.
Why did the Christians start the crusades???? Frankly they shouldn't be fighting for anything, if the Muslims were alive at the time of the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him we would not have stood idly by. It is a fact that the people were afraid of the authorities so God allowed the evil doers to be fooled by their own evil, let them think they had killed him, same thing happening with evil leaders, who think that because they are starting wars, that they are in control-it is the way of Satan, that he misleads many, and they think that nothing will happen to them, that they forget the next world.
Anyone can see by what you wrote, you are all over the place and at the same time bizarrely stating that you exercise natural reason-which everyone has-because when the Prophets came to deliver a message, they didn't sit down to discuss it with the people. So Prophet Noah peace be upon him didn't sit and hold conferences with people to discuss how they felt about worshipping the one God, instead he told them to repent, and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.
Also without making broad statements ie that God is "unity itself"-what do you mean by that?? We are not united with God, we are seperate beings just as the dog, the swine is not a part of the divine Creator-so you need to be careful of what you say, and I say this incase you meant it this way.
I'm not always on forums, but I value that people don't know when they are going to die, and if you cared about people so much, then you need to stop wasting people's time in way of trying to discredit Islam-do you honestly think that we haven't heard it all before??? Whilst at the same time as trying to present yourself as a learnt person, well you are not. I would imagine the normal thing to do was to search the forum, read instead of believing that we have no answers, that when you post a question, apparently we are going to be so dumbfounded that we are automatically going to leave Islam. We are the best people as we forbid evil and enjoin when in the past the people;-
- accusing King David of committing a sin
- accusations that Prophet Lut peace be upon him drank and awful lie about his daughters,
- upset the Prophet Moses peace be upon him by taking a golden calf (they now blame this on his brother),
- upset the Prophet Moses peace be upon him again by asking for different types of food,
- refused to fight and left wandering around the desert,
- told a lie by saying that King Solomon peace be upon him taught people magic
- rejected the Prophet John peace be upon him
- rejected the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him
- the Christians feared the authorities, even though Prophet Jesus peace be upon him had a table of food spreadth from Heaven (NOTE HERE -REAL FOOD FROM HEAVEN!!), created a bird out of clay and by Allah's permission became alive). As with all the Prophets, it was about remembering God and fearing him and not the authorites, hence why the magicians at Pharoah's court repented, and they had their hands and feet chopped off-but the were steadfast and have made it successfully in the next world.
- rejected the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
So as above, we are a religion perfected, Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is not going to be critical of us of worshipping the one God, we are not going to Hell for doing so, where Prophet Jesus peace be upon him also worships God Al-Mighty who has no son and neither does he share his rule with anyone. Also note here, when Prophet Jesus peace be upon him comes back he will be ASSASSINATING THE ANTI-CHRIST!! Here again is another example of where God approves to kill the evil doers in certain circumstances. Unless your going to contradict yourself again???
Last edited by h-n; 01-11-2015 at 08:30 PM.
Mentioning something about God is an important, and serious issue, so here you are saying he is one and then saying that he is related with others which doesn't change that he is the one God. That is an awful thing to say about God. Instead of making again broad sweeping statements need to clarify by what you mean by relations-to whom-as all we know is that about the trinity.format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio
Undoubtedly. You and I both agree that God is one in being/essence, and that God, insofar as He is God, is not divided or many in any way. However, I wish to stop short here and say that this is all that we can know by natural reason. God, insofar as He is in Himself, is wholly unknown to us. In the words of Iamblichus, God is pante arreton (wholly unknown), at least with respect to us. Is it possible that, when it comes to the inner life of God, that there is some way in which, even though being ineffably one, he is also, at least in some respect, triune? Naturally speaking, we can't know. That's hidden from us. It might be revealed, however. The Muslim will say "no," but I will say "yes," but only insofar as the persons of the Trinity are subsisting relations. Note that the nature of a relationship doesn't "divide" the substance in which it inheres.format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
Nor is this entirely unreasonable. Since God is Wisdom Itself and Love Itself, it is fitting that there should be something triune about God. Note that in knowledge, we may distinguish: 1. the lover, 2. the love and 3. the beloved; likewise, in knowledge, we may distinguish: 1. the knower, 2. the knowledge and 3. the known. In God's act of knowing and loving Himself, I believe that this one act of knowledge and love are expressed in the interpersonal relationships of the Most Blessed Trinity. The Father loves the Son; the Son is loved by the Father; the Holy Spirit is the subsistent Love which unites Father and Son in the unity of the Divine Essence.
But note that there is here one God who knows and loves Himself, not three Gods who know and love each other.
Fair point. I can see how my OP was rhetorically offputting. Mea culpa (my fault).The proper etiquette of someone who is aware of his own lack of knowledge is to approach a subject humbly
This is very interesting to me. I don't believe that I've heard this claim before. You believe that angels necessarily are good, and that angels cannot be bad? And in support of this, you claim that they have no carnal desires. Do you further claim that carnal desires alone are the root of all sins?Angels are beings of light that are created by God with the sole purpose of serving Him. Unlike humans, they do not have carnal desires which means that by their nature they cannot disobey God. We know that generally they are outside the realm of our empirical perceptions.
Do you assert that djinn and angels have the five senses (sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing)?So when you say that it is a contradiction that they are beings of light yet they are invisible, it is plain incorrect.
When we say that we cannot see them does that mean that they are invisible the way The Invisible Man (or any other character that can be invisible) cannot be seen? Does it mean that we might one day be walking around and accidentally bump into an angel? Of course not. As I mentioned, we know that they are beings of light and are generally not perceivable to us through empirical means. You're committing an equivocation fallacy by equating the invisible and that which is outside our realm of perception, so your argument has already broken down.
We can know problematically through reason that, if angels exist, then they are incorporeal, spiritual substances. Of course, in order to know that angels actually do exist, we need divine revelation. Strictly speaking, there are no effects that we can observe that necessarily bring us to believe in angels.The problem with your response here is that you are saying that "through reason" you can know that angels spiritual beings, but that is actually not possible because you won't even know that angels existed if it weren't revealed to you through scripture, so how then can you claim to be able to know what sort of beings angels are through reason alone?
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Peace be with you Hulk,
If polytheism were true then Islam would be false but conversely, if monotheism is true, it doesn't mean Islam is true. One can believe in the oneness of God and not be persuaded in believing that Muhammad was a prophet.format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
And this may be a bit too far off topic, but the idea of the Quran being Allah's uncreated and eternal word does make it sound like it somehow exists apart from Allah and yet still bears divine attributes. This is an address to your oneness statement about God.
Peace be with you Hulk,
Without delving into a comparative religion discussion I hope you will allow me to briefly address this. The Trinity is an affirmation that God, God's Word, and God's Wisdom all constitute one Divine Being. And so if you understand what the Trinity really is you may as Muslim say it's false, but you can't say it's polytheism because by definition it affirms the oneness of God.format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
And I'll leave it at that!
Pax et bonum
Last edited by Sojourn; 01-11-2015 at 09:21 PM.
i am wondering what you mean by prove god is not one ? i know nothing about Islam, or the people that believe, in Allah, but with all the things happening in the world today i somewhat fear what i do not even understand, can you please enlighten me as to why all these terrible things are happening , i really just really want to understand what the Islam want , from the world or even in general, forgive me if you find me stupid , i may well be but i am asking for you to help me understand these things happening if you can
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