The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights (OP)
In 1948, the UN adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It was the first global expression of what rights all human beings are entitled to. It holds the distinction of being the most-translated document in the world, and is understood by many international lawyers as being part of customary international law. It is a fundamental constitutive document of the United Nations.
Many Islamic countries, most notably Turkey, signed on and praised the document. Saudi Arabia was a notable opponent that offered some harsh criticism. Pakistan would later lodge a formal disagreement with these criticisms. Most African countries at this point were not a part of the UN, so it didn't really apply to them.
Later, in 1990, the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam was created. Countries like Egypt, Saudi, Iran, Syria, and Afghanistan signed on. It affirmed much of what the Universal Declaration said, but it upheld the inequalities inherent in Islamic law. To clarify, these countries are generally known as bad actors when it comes to human rights, the treatment of women, and religious freedom, but they went out of their way to protect Islam and uphold inequities in the name of Islamic sharia.
You can probably tell where I stand on this, but I want to put this out there for a random group of Muslims to comment on. What do you think of the different options that Islamic countries had available to them? Should they have all gotten on board with the Universal Declaration? Is the Cairo document something that you're sympathetic toward, or do you view it as a mistake, an embarrassment, or something that is used to prop up evil in the name of Islam?
And in general, from you as a Muslim to me as a Christian in the United States, what do you want me to know about either of these documents and about a particular kind of Islamic approach to this sort of issue?
Yes, orphans are also a possibility. Never thought of this option actually. Where would I find them?
Oh. There may be an issue, though. Thinking of it, orphans are children. There is a massive issue in Cambodia concerning foreigners showing interest to children, because of the issue of pedophiles who got arrested here. It is the same problem as in the Phillipines. The issue has become highly mediatized and politicized. Therefore, for the sake of the argument, I may want to choose another target group, because I do not wish to be confused for a pedophile. In other words, seeking to contact orphans is pretty much off-limit. I cannot imagine myself going to orphanage and getting accused of all kinds of evil mischief. Showing interest in local children is really something to avoid, because even innocent friendliness will be misinterpreted for evil behaviour. Getting involved in this field may actually land you in a detention facility, where you could be languishing for decades. I entirely understand the need to help children, but not with the risk of facing all kinds of very shameful accusations. So, no, no local children.
Go investigate the orphanage. Let the work that goes on there satisfy you and donate to the organisation. You don't have to physically do the work if you are worried about the negative possibilities.
There are more than plenty of these organsisations around. Funny you should use as reference the few that is soured as a result of sick people.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
Go investigate the orphanage. Let the work that goes on there satisfy you and donate to the organisation. Yoh don't have to physically do the work if you are worried about the negative possibilities. There are more than plenty of these organsisations around. Funny you should use as reference the few that is soured as a result of sick people.
Meeting in the real world: Adults only. Preferably only men.
There are too many security considerations to consider when straying from this principle. Seriously, any set of reasonable and serious security guidelines will recommend against doing that. You cannot long-term interact with other people and refuse to implement basic security or to hunt down the most glaring vulnerabilities. It will all end in some kind of security nightmare, if you do that.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Meeting in the real world: Adults only. Preferably only men.
There are too many security considerations to consider when straying from this principle. Seriously, any set of reasonable and serious security guidelines will recommend against doing that. You cannot long-term interact with other people and refuse to implement basic security or to hunt down the most glaring vulnerabilities. It will all end in some kind of security nightmare, if you do that.
I berated myself pretty hard for getting into this ongoing exchange with you, brother. But I have to defend both myself and anybody else who has provided a sincere suggestion as to how to donate your wealth. What we did not request, was a donation of your opinion on what Islam teaches us is charitable.
You have done a rather good job of highlighting the alarming predilictions of those that have warranted such secure outlooks on life, with nothing to be said for acknowledging the validity of some of our suggestions. What is stopping you from making your charitable donation in the privacy and security of your own home without propogating responses from the wider Muslim community that exists here at Islamic Board?
The primary point being made to you, without you further distracting from the point, is simply to go and make your charity - or don't. It doesn't make an iota worth of difference to any of us where you go and make it, nor whether you actually make it at all. Why should it?
Either way, May Allah subhano wa ta'ala grant you guidance, and the very best in this life and the next. Amin
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
To be really honest
@kritikvernunft
and this has nothing to do with the OP, is that I get this overwhelming feeling from your words here that you 'feel' it is you against the rest of the world, whether that is the result of the nature of your job where the thought process must be something like 'guilty until proven innocent' even then it might still be guilty because we we can't yet find the evidence. If I see hungry cat and I feed it, it is a spurr of the moment thing. Life is about moments. Moments will pass. What did you do in all those moments? Will it all just pass into nothing but seriously convoluted scientific terminologies about all possible parameters of possibilities and probabilities of ifs and buts or just get on and help. There are plenty of people that need help. The probability of no one being in serious need of help at any one time is zero. That someone is just a phone call away.
To add, your post are really off on a tangeant for one thing. But your facts quoted pertaining to islam and its belief is putting it bluntly, false. Your assumption of my views on Jesus is .. I won't go there but I must thank the Moderator
@najimuddin
for removing the stuff. It's like me telling you your family history. Totally presumptious. But everybody is entitled to their opinion hence we must be wise how we share that opinion. I could have reacted but sister herb said what needed to be said and I left it at 'ignorance'.
Still, it is a forum, and I try to input where I can without being lengthy (it is hard). I especially like to give a different view point using the most fundamentally basic principle. The message of God. His name is Allah. Where we need specifics, we refer to Quran and sunnah.
Start with the root, understand how it is firmly placed. What are the ingredients that goes in to make a strong trunk of belief before you see the infinite variables of possibilities in the branches and leaves.
Don't go chopping off branches..
I am still waiting for you to make sense.. Jesus is a wonderful prophet. I am sorry for what he has become for the Christians, though. It is exactly as the Quran says about people of past words to the effect of 'What? Abandon what my father and his father and his father before him worshipped?' Christianity and this belief is too deeply ingrained for too long already to be changed easily...
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
My personal opinion is that only the Quran is allowed to offer the exact wording and phrasing of what exactly the One True God meant to convey us as his message and his resulting divine law.
Then you won't ever know what it contains, because you are reading a translation of it in your language, which is attempted by man.
So how can you - by your own logic - know any Qur'an?????
See bro, your logic doesn't work.
And you cannot interpolate your own understanding based off a loose translation and then claim "Only God can know...." when you've attempted to side line God (na'udhubilah)and entertain your "messiah complex".
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
This A to L program does not take into account that we were supposed to assist and help other believers voluntarily, through zakat and alms. I actually reject every attempt at replacing these provisions in the Quranic text by new government taxation programmes.
I made sure to mention that what I posted was only a part of the original paper. There's a lot more which I did not post simply because of tl;dr, and what I did post dealt with your line of enquiry.
As a new Muslim, your journey has only just started. It's best to take your time and learn as you go,
If you want, you can download some PDF books on particular topics within Islam that help to explain the dissemination of Islamic tenets in greater detail.
www.kalamullah.com is a good site where you can download books from a wide variety of topics pertaining to Islam.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
Life is about moments. Moments will pass. What did you do in all those moments?
That is certainly one way to look at life.
That someone is just a phone call away.
I do not use phones, and certainly not mobile ones.
Before you say that I am paranoia, I probably am. I am currently doing a new startup -- as a silly sideshow Bob -- with three other software devs: szilla.io. We are almost live now (maybe a few weeks or so). It is a secure tunneling service by the paranoia for the paranoia. Unfortunately, I cannot show you a link to my main project; and not just because it is an onion on the tor network.
I do speak bits and bobs of the local Khmer language here, but I really do not want to do religion in that language. It has to be in English, or else I just won't do it. So, that puts an additional stop to the idea of doing phone calls, here locally. By the way, almost nobody speaks English here. The problem is several orders of magnitude worse than in Thailand and Vietnam, which are the two main neighbouring countries here. For other things, it is perfectly ok for me that the locals pretty much do not speak English at all -- I would not want it any other way -- because that allows me to be highly selective in my interactions. Seriously, I only understand Khmer when I want to.
Your assumption of my views on Jesus is ..
Well, I am probably paranoia about that too.
I am still waiting for you to make sense.. Jesus is a wonderful prophet. I am sorry for what he has become for the Christians, though.
All the surrounding claims add up to a massive security issue. A big gaping hole. Therefore, I am not particularly interested in furthering this subject. I cannot fix that problem, and I probably do not want to fix it anyway. So, let's move on to more interesting issues and concerns.
I admit that I have painted myself into a corner here. I specifically picked this country to live in, because they do not speak English, while I only understand their local language when I want to; but now I still need them to speak English, because I will not do religion in a language that I don't even particularly like.
You see, when they speak Khmer here, they usually believe that I surely do not understand that language, because almost no foreigners can manage to speak it. That is why I always try to address them in English, which they usually cannot speak. That makes also them believe that I surely do not understand their language either. Wrong. I do. I know exactly what they are saying. You would not believe what people say about you when they think that you do not understand them anyway. In the One God we trust and in nothing else.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
I am beginning to feel you brother
@kritikvernunft
. Your last post enlightened me slightly.
Just out of my needing to 'share' ... I am a Malay living in Malaysia. A same person, foreigner of course is foreigner. But a foreigner speaking Malay is something I, as a citizen here, find endearing. It puts that foreigner in a different league to those who do not attempt to learn but expects the natives to understand a foreign language.
You see, trust can divided into areas so to speak, possessions and secrets are say, untouchable. Say someone wants to borrow a small amount from you, 5 bucks. Because the amount is of no real consequence the action of the borrower becomes indicators for me. If he pays me back, when and how all goes towards the build up of that 'relationship'. How he treats others and his propensity to be true to his words or not.
Over time things won't remain static but instead will develop. There are people out there who would put their life on the line on the account of friends.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimah_B
Allahs laws uphold rights for everything humans, animals & nature, not just for muslims but the whole of humanity for the benifit of our souls, not our pockets
Some Muslim countries have gotten on board with truly universal rights for the whole of humanity and not just for Muslims, but a particular group of Islamic countries went out of their way to draft an official resolution that supports the protection of a very nice set of rights for Muslims and lesser rights for non-Muslims. From your response, I think I can gather that you're in favor of what the former group did- true support of the same rights for all people. It doesn't explain exactly why those other Muslim countries did the other thing, but I think I've gotten a bit of an explanation on that and at least it's clear to me which course of action you ascribe to a true and proper expression of Islam. Thank you for that.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Word of advice, cooterhein. If you intend to preach to Muslims about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, either stay far clear of Israel, or recognize it for the human rights violator it is, without making excuses for it.
That's kind of hard to do when I'm asking a question that asks for a comparative explanation of some Muslim countries to other Muslim countries, and then the first response is from a moderator who thinks that's a perfect opportunity to hold an American Christian to account for the actions of Jews in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's a perfect example of ignoring a question from a brand-new member in favor of a more personal attack.
By the way, I have recognized the issues, such as they are. I've also placed them in context. Israel has some noticeable human rights issues that do need attention and action, I've also said that its neighbors are all in a much worse place with their human rights issues.
You quoted from the document and I've acknowledged that there are noticeable issues with Israel. You also characterize Israel as one of the worst violators in the world though, but that can only be true if you ignore all the Islamic countries that are far worse.
I am strongly implying that the developed West, on the whole, is way up here when it comes to human rights issues, while the Islamic world, by and large with a few exceptions, forms the bulk of the "worst of the worst" category way down there. That would be a perfect example of a sanctimonious description if it were not absolutely true. I do understand that there can be a fine line between criticism and commentary, but this is an objectively true description of how the world is at this point in time.
It didn't have to go here though, you know. There was a certain moderator all the way back in the first response who could have answered the actual question instead of opening all of this up.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
Some Muslim countries have gotten on board with truly universal rights for the whole of humanity and not just for Muslims,
Well, hopely also the western countries now take a lesson from those Islamic countries and will give same rights also to their Muslim citizens in the West. You might not be aware how many times the basic rights of Muslims are violated in the West. Not only in those cases when a Muslim lady hasn´t rights to decide how she will wear in the public but also rights to build the worshipping places (mosques) is forbidden. Or like in the Switzerland where calling to prayer (adhan) is prohibited. Comparing; it is legal to use the Church bells.
Nowadays it seems that at the least gays have more rights than Muslims in the west.
Last edited by sister herb; 07-03-2016 at 06:14 AM.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I challenge you to bring me only one document about Human Rights which came from the west before the New Ages...
And if by chance you find one then was it approved by the society and politicians there ?
Well, 1948 was the first time ever for a credible effort at getting the entire planet on the same page with this type of thing. Since that have never happened before....bad planet?
Human Rights started with Islam since the first prophets of Islam... And there is NO DOUBT in history about that!
I'm not sure what type of response people are looking for when they assert that they used to be so much better than they currently are.
So, in general, from you as a Christian in the Western countries to me as a Muslim in the Arab Countries, how do you want me to feel about the Human treatments of the countries of the west towards Muslims today ?
That wasn't at all what I asked about in the OP. I'm asking about how Muslim countries treat non-Muslims from country to country, acknowledging that there are differences from one to the next with a curiosity as to exactly why that is. Almost everyone who's responded seems to be dissatisfied with that as a starting point and all you want to talk about is "What about our grievances against you, or anyone else?" And I've had about enough of that.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
My personal opinion is that only the Quran is allowed to offer the exact wording and phrasing of what exactly the One True God meant to convey us as his message and his resulting divine law.
What about international law, which deals with a whole lot of non-Muslims? Why should international law be subject to Quranic interpretation?
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
Some Muslim countries have gotten on board with truly universal rights for the whole of humanity and not just for Muslims, but a particular group of Islamic countries went out of their way to draft an official resolution that supports the protection of a very nice set of rights for Muslims and lesser rights for non-Muslims. From your response, I think I can gather that you're in favor of what the former group did- true support of the same rights for all people. It doesn't explain exactly why those other Muslim countries did the other thing, but I think I've gotten a bit of an explanation on that and at least it's clear to me which course of action you ascribe to a true and proper expression of Islam. Thank you for that.
Your very much welcome
What you have to understand is that with the world today, for you or anyone else to understand islam you must look at the Quran & Hadeeths and for the Quran you must learn from reputable scholars/muftis, you cant look towards the actions of muslims to determine "this is islam" you will always find people doing something that is wrong, we muslims are not perfect but those who are practising their faith strive to be as perfect as possible.
People make mistakes, do stupid things and what happens is that people attribute this to islam and say "ah so this is what islam is about" which in reality is the furthest thing from islam ever.
Eg - some muslims drink & gamble now these things are clearly forbidden in islam & once you have an intoxicant your prayers are invalid for 40days !
-some muslims commit adultry which is also forbidden.
Anyway back to the human rights issue.
When you say why doesnt muslim countries sign and join this human rights well
1. They are man made laws
2. Islam gave us laws for everything to adhere to, Allah triumphs over everything as we know that whatever Allah demands & tells us is for our benifit along with the hadeeths which added onto our sharia aswell.
3. The people who made these laws do not even uphold them on their own soil and actually support isreal & stand by them while they commit such attrocities to HUMAN BEINGS & violate every single right to humans, animals & nature (they destory homes, livestock, burn down their olive trees etc)
How can you speak so highly of people who still trade with Israel but preach about human rights
If they truly upheld human rights as they say they do, they would immediately stop trading with isreal and corner them off, but they wont as there is too much money to earn from war.
So you have to understand that until something is done about this issue which clearly violates every right known to man then - no1 is going to listn to you preach about human rights when not one of those human rights is uphold towards muslims even in their own countries i.e Uk & usa the whole of the west, in many cases we arent even seen as humans we are seen as sub-humans, rodents, swarms of insects
There are serious double standards that only happen when man tried to intervene and make up his own laws when we already have perfect laws set in place for everything by Allah.
-if everyone gave zakat 2.5% of their wealth there would be absolutely no poor or hungry people in this world, if all the wealthy governments stopped going to war it would stop military spending which could go to aid overseas helping those who actually need help
But what do i know apparently im sub-human & dont have a brain (i know you havent said this but honestly i hear this so much now its becoming a joke when i hear people talk about human rights yet treat us like dirt)
Narrated Jubair ibn Mut’im: The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W), said: "He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyah, (nationalism/tribalism) or who fights for `Asabiyah or who dies for `Asabiyah." [Sunan Abu Dawud (Vol. 2, pg. 753) No. 5121]
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Well, hopely also the western countries now take a lesson from those Islamic countries and will give same rights also to their Muslim citizens in the West. You might not be aware how many times the basic rights of Muslims are violated in the West. Not only in those cases when a Muslim lady hasn´t rights to decide how she will wear in the public but also rights to build the worshipping places (mosques) is forbidden. Or like in the Switzerland where calling to prayer (adhan) is prohibited. Comparing; it is legal to use the Church bells.
Nowadays it seems that at the least guys have more rights than Muslims in the west.
Show me an official metric that puts lots of Muslim countries at a superior level to a lot of Western countries when it comes to human rights issues. I haven't seen any such thing. All that I've seen is Western countries at the top, a couple of mostly-Muslim countries near the top group, a few more Muslim countries in the middle, and then no Western countries at the bottom, only Muslim countries. And they're not mostly-Muslim countries, they're exclusively Muslim countries.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
format_quote Originally Posted by najimuddin
Hello cooterhein,
Who runs these Muslim countries? Let's start with the GCC.
That's headquartered in the capital of Saudi Arabia, but it was founded in Abu Dhabi. It looks to me like there's a bit of competition between KSA and the UAE as to who's going to be the main decision maker in this alliance- which is not necessarily a bad thing at all. Jordan Yemen and Morocco might join, Iraq wants to join and Kuwait is okay with that, and overall it seems like this is an alliance of Gulf states in the interest of working against Iran. It does seem to be a major point of emphasis, at least. There's also some kind of recent tension between KSA and Qatar, although I don't know much of the specifics or if it's going to be significant at all.
Re: The Uneven Response of Islam to Universal Human Rights
Greetings and peace be with you cooterhein;
I am strongly implying that the developed West, on the whole, is way up here when it comes to human rights issues,
A list of countries America has bombed since WW2, millions have died. Presumably, these bombings do not come under any human rights issues, or America would be at the bottom of the list.
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(i know you havent said this but honestly i hear this so much now its becoming a joke when i hear people talk about human rights yet treat us like dirt)
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