To decide for oneself that there is a god or to decide for oneself that there is no god are both steps onto a path of faith whether that faith is positive (is) or negative (isn't) is irrelevant.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here, although the discussion is interesting.
I'm not denying that atheism involves a negative type of faith at all, I'm simply saying that I think 'infidel' is a suitable word for an atheist. This point of view comes from the fact that the noun 'infidel' is almost always used in reference to religion, so the type of faith that an infidel does not have is religious faith, rather than another type of faith, such as faith in propositions, for example.
It is generally accepted that by knowledge alone, no one can know one way or the other, and that is the agnostic stance.
Tautology?
So while an agnostic can be described as someone with no (fanatical agnostic i.e. does not believe in anything outside of own personal experience/exposure their only faith is in what they themselves percieve and even then they ponder about that e.g. descartes)
I'm not sure that was really Descartes' position, although it was certainly one that he wrestled with. Of course here you're talking about 'agnostic' in the wider sense of total scepticism about the possibility of knowledge and fence-sitting on just about every question.
or little (moderate agnostic, i.e. is willing to accept evidence which has some objective concensus of approval concerning it even though s/he personally did not discover the evidence, hence they have faith in people) faith, an atheist is undeniably within a faith system. The few true atheists I have met in life have all conceeded that it is a negative faith.
Of course. It is faith in a negative proposition. I do not say that I know there is no god, I simply believe that that is the case.
If you don't like the word malfidel then we need two words, one for positive faith (is) and one for negative faith (isn't), but I am sure that the vast vocabularies in English and arabic already have words for these if we look for them. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Believer, non-believer. Theist, atheist. Person of faith, infidel.
Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Sounds like how the West treats Muslims only less so.
Indeed. Mind you they also had to pay special taxes. As a Muslim in the West, do you?
Well that is not entirely true depending on what you mean by "Muslim". The Dhimmi status was only ever offered to Jews, Christians, Sabians, Zoroastrians and eventually Hindus in practice but not in theory wasn't it? Pagans were not given a choice, they had to convert.
I would argue that the more experience people have of Islam as it is actually practiced, or at least has been in the past, the more they fear Islam. Greece is not known for its fondness for Turkey, nor India for Pakistan, nor Israel for any Arab nation. Japan on the other hand has no idea what being ruled by Muslims means and so there is ignorance but no fear. Would you say that is a fair comment or perhaps you have some counter-examples of non-Muslim countries which really get on well with their Muslim neighbors - Serbia perhaps?
nd yet everyone is here complaining about America striking back when attacked.
And so has America. Is that their right to do so?
once again hei gou you have answered in ignorance of what you truly speak of?
why do you continue to try and bring islam down out of hate if you have valid questions fair enough but as i said you seem tto mbe aiming to bring it down beacuse its islam or they are muslims...
america as peacful was it?
so america didnt do anything and muslims just decided they would start to attack this country is that what you beleive? i suggest you do a little more research before talking about something...
i pay tax to the country indeed i do...and you say those who were not muslim were made to pay tax!? indeed you are correct they paid tax just as i do in this country whats your point???
the tax that non muslims paid in a muslim state was nothing compared to the fact that they were defended within that state by muslim soilders adn the fact that muslims had to pay the zakat that was considrebly higher than the tax of the non muslims. within the state where non muslims resided they were protected just as i am in this country however they were given a lesser tax to pay and not expected to fight in any army that was to protect the land onthe other hand the muslims were expected to stand up to fight the enemy if attacked where as the non muslims could leave...
as i said i suggest you do your research before talking nd stop attacking islam on the basis o india and pakistan and dont tell me indians dont like pakistan on the basis of it being a muslim state ok mate cos its on the basis of kashmir not being muslim as there are thousands of muslims in india.
and i doubt they have the same sadistic view as yourself...
and no one was MADE to convert and if people make another forcully convert then that is not islam...for to force someone to in to any religon is against the religon itself...
fear of islam!?? is nothing but ignorance of islam...you fear that which you do not understand ...and that is your weakness you attack that which you hardley know anything about...
is it not strange..you are the one who is attacking yet no one here is talking of your religon or land??
yet you seem freely to be able to question islam its followers and judge what it all means...
your fear leads your judgment and any judgment made in fear and ignorance is most likley incorrect..
do not make enemies of those who do not wish to be your enemy...for it makes no sense...
as i said no one is attacking you so it seems irrelvent for you to attack them...
seek justice not enemies...
Last edited by Rou; 05-24-2006 at 06:50 PM.
Rise oh lions! Dawnoftheummah.com
:blind: F@te Is a blind path..you will see when you get there...:cresentbl
Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?
Ok so how about the word disbeliever then anyone got a problem with that, btw I know it's the same thing but I'm guessing some people might find it acceptable since they know what it means.
Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?
format_quote Originally Posted by islam-truth
Ok so how about the word disbeliever then anyone got a problem with that, btw I know it's the same thing but I'm guessing some people might find it acceptable since they know what it means.
No. I have a problem with it. I am highly offended by it. Please don't use it. I find it completely objectionable.
It is a subjective term. Non-Moslem is not. In fact it is quite unambiguous. SO when referring to non-Moslems please say non-Moslem. It's even fewer key strokes, so God is already rewarding you.
I-T that's one serious chip on your shoulder. You could feed a small third world nation for a week if you could but find enough salt and vinegar for it.
Hello dishdash it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks, why not take a few moments to engage in an argument with another member in any one of our forums?
Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?
format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash
No. I have a problem with it. I am highly offended by it. Please don't use it. I find it completely objectionable.
It is a subjective term. Non-Moslem is not. In fact it is quite unambiguous. SO when referring to non-Moslems please say non-Moslem. It's even fewer key strokes, so God is already rewarding you.
I-T that's one serious chip on your shoulder. You could feed a small third world nation for a week if you could but find enough salt and vinegar for it.
assalaamu alaykum akhi,
why would you have a problem with people calling non-muslims kaffirs or disbelievers? Allah calls them disbelievers in the Quran, do we know better than the creator of the heavens and the earth and all between?
if we dont warn them of their status before Allah, why would they bother changing? its like someone running around with their shirt tails on fire and your telling us its not polite to mention their burning shirt tails! subhanallah, why do muslims not use the name for non-muslims that Allah uses?
Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?
Because people are not here on this forum necessarily to revert - calling them a non-believer is an insult to someone who believes in something, regardless of whether our point of view. They are here with their own beliefs. Good for them. If they are inspired by something they see here to take a step towards Islam, alhamdulilah. If they don't but simply come away with one less stereotype about Moslems, alhamdulilah.
Non-Moslem is more than adequate as a description is it not? Nothing gets lost in the meaning, does it?! And not getting their back up in the first place is adab on our part, right?
Think back to your own days of kuffr. Was the true path revealed to you by someone getting your back up? Or was it witnessing the beauty of the true religion being practised with manners and patience?
Hello dishdash it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks, why not take a few moments to engage in an argument with another member in any one of our forums?
I think that the word Kafir as mentioned in the english language that would refer to a black person in an insulting way, was taken from the Afrikaans word kaffer; wich was frequently used in south-africa during the apartheid era.
Admittedly, it sounds nearly the same if pronounced but, it was used by Christian whites to show their superiority over non-whites.
In reply a black (Or non-white, wich included indians, malaytians, coloureds, etc) had to say: "Ja My Baas"
Yes my boss, owner, master, etc.
E.G.
That kaffer over there is worhtless to me, would you like to buy him for five rand?
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a man says to his brother, O Kafir (disbeliever)!' Then surely one of them is such (i.e., a Kifir). "
Sahih BUkhari:Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125m: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, 'If anyone says to his brother, 'O misbeliever! Then surely, one of them such."
thats to muslims. anything about saying to kaafirs?
and
what is a kaafir?
a kaafir is one who conceals or denies the truth.
the truth being there is none worthy or worship besides Allah and Muhammed is the final messenger.
the other five pillars
the principles of imaan
etc etc
if you are a non muslim= you have denied the truth= you are a desbeliever/kaafir
theres much more important things to worry about than what to call disbelievers/non muslims/ kaafirs whatever suits you.
Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to Faith: 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed.
Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and expiate from us our evil deeds, and make us die (in the state of righteousness) along with Al-Abrar
Kafr? What's the big deals? The Christians calls us as "Heathens".... so what? Hmm, i remember in the other thread about the "importance" of upholding the "freedom of speech"! What ever happened to that? geezzz.....
Al-Asr (103.001-003) By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
Kafr? What's the big deals? The Christians calls us as "Heathens".... so what? Hmm, i remember in the other thread about the "importance" of upholding the "freedom of speech"! What ever happened to that? geezzz.....
the words simply means the unbelievers....so, what's the big deals here?
Al-Asr (103.001-003) By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds,
and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth,
and of Patience and Constancy.
I personally think we'd just have to address them as non-Muslims. After all our Prophet did once say that whosoever hurts a dhimmi has hurt the Prophet (I'd be happy if someone can provide me with the hadith).
If they get all offensive to us or our religion we can always revert back to start calling them kaffirs again. Just my two cents worth.
I think that the word Kafir as mentioned in the english language that would refer to a black person in an insulting way, was taken from the Afrikaans word kaffer; wich was frequently used in south-africa during the apartheid era.
Admittedly, it sounds nearly the same if pronounced but, it was used by Christian whites to show their superiority over non-whites.
And which the Afrikaaners adopted from Muslim traders along the southern African coast. They applied it to the pagans they saw around them - the Black Africans of the interior. And the Whites just adopted the term and used it in a racial sense, not a religious one. But applied it to the same people. With, I suspect, the same degree of contempt.
Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal
I don't see the reason why people feel the overwhelming urge to label groups of people in terms those groups of people might find offensive. The origin, or even the meaning, of the word is irrelevant if people start taking offence to it. Muslims are supposed to be polite you see.
I agree with Dishdash, just say 'non-Muslim' - it's accurate and it's inoffensive.
Seriously Can someone explain to me how the word Kafir is being rude, now trust me if I were going to be rude to a person I wouldn't call them a Kafir, It has the same effect has someone calling me a muslim.
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