Hijaab

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

I was at the Olympics in Athens a couple years ago, and I saw Svetlana Khorkina perform.

http://www.olympic-eurogym.demon.nl/.../khos/khos.htm

Russia's most successful gymnast, with a remarkable and unique style, is Svetlana Vasilevna Khorkina.

She is tall and elegant, using her height (164 cm!) to full advantage.

Almost contradicting the laws of physics, on her own specialty apparatus, the asymmetric bars, Svetlana has won about every major medal, dominating podiums all over the world, including a unique series of four consecutive world titles.

A big triumph is probably winning the 1997 World Championships All Around title, given her emotional reaction she probably didn't expect this to happen ...

The year after, in her home country of Russia, Svetlana won the 1998 European Championships as well.

In the year 2000 Svetlana achieved another remarkable, perhaps even unique feat. While many thought it impossible for her to win a major all around title again, she did exactly this in the 2000 European Championhips!

In the most important event, the 2000 Olympic Games, Svetlana had a rough time. Still, she won three medals.

In 2001 World Championships she proved she is the best gymnast in the world again, becoming World Champion again!

As a scientist, I can tell you one thing for certain! A young woman could never achieve this sort of mastery of her art with her entire body covered in heavy folds of clothing.

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

Not every woman is a gymnist!.... there is also nothing in islam that forbids women from exercising..... there are all women Gyms specifically for Muslim women or she can exercise at home!
people who achieve this type of "mastery" as you will
also have stunted bone growths, lose their periods and grow fine hair on the body called lanuga.... that plus the fragility of their tendons and ligaments... a triad known as (disordered eating, amenorrhea, and osteoporosis)
I too as a scientest can say that with conviction! Everything in moderation is key!
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/336/2/140

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Dhulqarnaeen

[COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="2"]

If you decide like that sis...then yes you may do whatever you like. Go with your friends and hang out somewhere, go do something with your hair and all. Do taht while you still can, and while you still "alive". Cause in qubr and yaumul akheer you will just get a punishments, and Rasulullah said about women that have clothes but naked "they WILL NOT enter heaven and wont smell the scent of heaven, although the smell can be sensed from.......(I forget wether its thousand miles or...?)...

That is what you say. I say PROVE IT. Prove to us in a way that I will not be able to refute that this young lady is going to suffer in the afterlife for not wearing restrictive, disempowering, and alienating clothing that turn her into a piece of property to be owned by a man.

The same scare-talk has been used by theocrats and cultists to control the behaviors of the innocent and the naive for at least the last 10,000 years.

Here is what I say to you young lady. Think for yourself. Follow your heart, for therein lies true goodness and piety. There is nothing sinful about the human body, it is the mind of dogmatist which attribute their own lustful thoughts to the forms of others.

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Ulysses

And a burkha is moderate!?

I am sorry? I don't see a "burka" anywhere in my post.... or in the links provided..... have you a problem understanding what was written? or do you just like throwing words around to meet a quota for most hyperbolic posts?
It is a counseling section... if you can't say something soothing.... then the honorable thing to do is say nothing at all!

**akulion** · 10-11-2006

well our ladies are not for display for every tom dick and harry to check out their legs and bodies while they do gymnastics to entertain 10000000 strangers

if u believe in that then ur welcome to do that to ur own ladies

but our ladies are our treasures

so they cover for God Alhamdolillah

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

I am sorry? I don't see a "burka" anywhere in my post.... or in the links provided..... have you a problem understanding what was written? or do you just like throwing words around to meet a quota for most hyperbolic posts?
It is a counseling section... if you can't say something soothing.... then the honorable thing to do is say nothing at all!

Referring to the putative punishment she is attributed to warrant in the afterlife is not soothing, and neither is your sanctimonious patronization of rational argumentation. I'm quite aware that your customs are complex, if not baroque, and I'm familiar with the common tactic of belittling an outsider who seeks to comment on the underlying philosophical validity of your practices based on a lack of detailed knowledge. Such an ad hominem resort to undermining my points is typical of zealotry and a requisite part of the tyranny of false consciousness.

At the end of the day it amounts to putting a pretty bag over the human body. Whether that is referred to as a burkha, hijab, gunny sack, or some other jargon is immaterial to the fundamental effect on the victim's sense of identity.

Free yourselves. Free your minds.

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by akulion

but our ladies are our treasures

so they cover for God Alhamdolillah

Interesting metaphor. A commodity to be possessed. A treasure. Not a person, not an equal, not a leader, not a sage, not a hero. A piece of chattel.

We are on the world wide web, and I am a citizen of it. By entering into this realm you will find that you will endlessly for ever after encounter "heretics" such as myself who are going to ask all sorts of awkward questions, propose all sorts of shocking ideas, and generally question many of the more dogmatic aspects of your worldview. Such is the reality of cyberspace I suppose.

I will quote the words of a song which you are probably aware of by the singer Sting

"If you love somebody, set them free"

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

Hey man that is deep! For what it is worth your "ideas" are often recycled! Refuted! take a deep dive into the forums... before expressing your ever so-shocking views...... nothing in cyber space we haven't been exposed to before newbie...... and please whatever you do don't bring back the eighties...

**akulion** · 10-11-2006

a treasure in the materialistic sence?

nooooo

Islam teaches us better

they are our treasures to be honored and loved and upheld in high esteem

u see u fail to see that muslim women cover because they choose to cover - so that makes u the one who wants to force your will to 'free them' by making them uncover. but the fact is ur not freeing them, ur just imposing ur will.

Islam is a choice

dont grudge those who make it

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Ulysses

Referring to the putative punishment she is attributed to warrant in the afterlife is not soothing, and neither is your sanctimonious patronization of rational argumentation. I'm quite aware that your customs are complex, if not baroque, and I'm familiar with the common tactic of belittling an outsider who seeks to comment on the underlying philosophical validity of your practices based on a lack of detailed knowledge. Such an ad hominem resort to undermining my points is typical of zealotry and a requisite part of the tyranny of false consciousness.

At the end of the day it amounts to putting a pretty bag over the human body. Whether that is referred to as a burkha, hijab, gunny sack, or some other jargon is immaterial to the fundamental effect on the victim's sense of identity.

Free yourselves. Free your minds.

Thanks for that what a deep insight... oh leader of the pack and holder of the flame... I am almost enjoying that image of you pounding extra hard on your chest in show of prowess. I wouldn't want you to spill out all your literally wit in two posts....
So easy for any of us to be like you..especially living in the west...... to choose to stick to one's own conviction IS to be freed..... as you oppress with words/ books and the frequent images we are all so accustomed to seeing on the tele. Your not so civilized yet deeply en vogue anti-islamic rehtoric, is nothing but empty fluff wrapped in big words.... some of us prefer to hold on to our own moral compass........
The acid trips and the sisters of mercy, and dabbling in witch craft has become lack luster.......... you mention sages in your other post... well to choose Islam in spite of the image you and others portray in your ever philosophical yet scathing fecund little manifestos is the very essence of wisdom.

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Hey man that is deep! For what it is worth your "ideas" are often recycled! Refuted! take a deep dive into the forums... before expressing your ever so-shocking views...... nothing in cyber space we haven't been exposed to before newbie...... and please whatever you do don't bring back the eighties...

On the contrary my pedantic cyber-rival. Your viewpoint is the one which has been soundly refuted countless times in zillions of cyber-dialogues round the wide world.

You should not judge the "newness" of a soul by its post count. Nor should you regard my small number with denigration; to underestimate the resolve of your opponent is to seal your own defeat, and it is through your own absolutist hegemony of ideas by which our encounter has been made a contest instead of a sharing.

If Islam truly seeks peaceful coexistence with the modernized global village, this discourse will out of the necessity of the secular humanists duty to validate the spirit of humanity replay countless times. But truth and beaty will eventually vanquish fear and hatred.

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Ulysses

On the contrary my pedantic cyber-rival. Your viewpoint is the one which has been soundly refuted countless times in zillions of cyber-dialogues round the wide world.

You should not judge the "newness" of a soul by its post count. Nor should you regard my small number with denigration; to underestimate the resolve of your opponent is to seal your own defeat, and it is through your own absolutist hegemony of ideas by which our encounter has been made a contest instead of a sharing.

If Islam truly seeks peaceful coexistence with the modernized global village, this discourse will out of the necessity of the secular humanists duty to validate the spirit of humanity replay countless times. But truth and beaty will eventually vanquish fear and hatred.

You remind me of that froth on the ocean... it is abundant yet full of fluff... judgmental yet not too self insightful........ prune to generalizing... I am no opponent of yours... I'd get no pleasure out of it... I'd have to enjoy some level of rivalry to be your opponent... you inspire nothing more than an itch on my side at best......
tell you what... just viewing your posts, I know you don't know the first thing about Muslim women or their rights in Islam... how about you educate yourself a little without the over usage of the thesaurus as it really does nothing for me. And then we can have this deep profound conversation... Until then you will be met with nothing but ridicule. Not so much because you offer something new and profound and outside the box... but because deep down I know you really are under-learned in Islamic affairs.......
peace

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Thanks for that what a deep insight... oh leader of the pack and holder of the flame....

Judge me by my size do you!?

But seriously, why try to scare the girl with references to an imaginary place that one can only experience after death!? What possible mutualistic benefit could that provide to her, you or anyone else?

I think I'll let my colleagues over in the Classics department know about this site . . . oh the sub-texts and deconstructions to be transcribed throug the briar rabbit narratives . . .

But here back to factual reality: 79% of humanity do not agree that your body is a vehicle of sin that you must cover up and hide in order to be a good person. So take solace in that and question the authority which has reduced you to your current state. That is what many of us did when we were adolescents. It is not easy even in an indulgent society, and to be fair to the extremely conservative view being proposed by my self-determined adversaries, an overly indulgent society can indeed make it all much, much worse.

But I believe it was in a post by one of yus folks up above in which you said something along the lines of "moderation in all things." I can agree that wearing a thong and bending over in public or working as a stripper is not moderation, but then covering every inch of your skin for fear that a male eye may lasciciously linger therewith is not exactly moderate either.

As an Asian-Italian hyrbid hermaphrodite (I suffer congenital adrenal hyperplasia so its not my fault, kay?) who follows the way of Buddha in my daily life as a stockbroker in bustling Hong Kong, all I can say is, be true to yourself. Sometimes you'll feel like beating your chest, even if you wear Pippy Long Stockings, and sometimes you'll feel like being a sweet demure little girl hiding with a pensive grin behind her veil. Its all about the choices, and the beauty of the human character that is fostered in the contexts of honor systems that allow those choices to be made.

Every society has its deviants, its extremists, its criminals, its excessors. It is a fundamental truth of human nature that we are variable. Is a society more virtuous by disrespecting the dignity, the autonomy, and the self-respect of the individual by imposing its will on everyone with detailed prescriptive rituals for sacramentization? Or is it more virtuous by using the carrot AND the stick? You be the judge young lady. It's a global village and even if you are stuck in a place unfortunate to be ruled by a non-elected and pedantic regime, you can with sufficient resolve, free yourself even from those bonds.

**akulion** · 10-11-2006

If Islam truly seeks peaceful coexistence with the modernized global village, this discourse will out of the necessity of the secular humanists duty to validate the spirit of humanity replay countless times. But truth and beaty will eventually vanquish fear and hatred.

Indeed it will indeed it will

Thats why one day Islam will triumph over the secularists who seek to vanquish islam by force and co-ersion

Allah Hu Akbar

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

This is just too long and I was hoping to catch a movie....
I don't think I scared the girl into anything? please refresh me with where I have?......

I am not sure where you got your statistic from... but let's say for a moment it is true... just for humoring you sake... if you were lost in the jungle somewhere, where the entire village lives on cannibalism....... there is 7982 of them and just one of you, does that make all of them right and you wrong for refusing to partake in their acceptable rituals? on the account that you might even end up as dindin?
I can't address your entire post point by point though I admire that you took the time to write it all.... It was I who said everything in moderation... and I learned that from Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) as he was the one who mentioned it in several Hadiths... see if you knew just a fundamental basic thing about the religion, you'd have known that... and we wouldn't be having this conversation...
I know more about you, life style, job, etc than I really want to.......
know this... most females I know the one with the least impressive Job is a pharmacist........ I think that is saying lots about Muslim women's oppression and progress...
there are more female docs in Egypt than there are female docs in the US
there are more female reps sitting in the Iranian house of reps than there are in the US... None of them feel restricted in their dress wear except by frequent comments from folk like you.... Can give you countless examples of women's rights and what women have done and continue to do in Islam from the most primitive days up to now... if you were truly interested and not just here to come liberate us all from the clothes that hold us hostage.......
funny first thing the Americans did to the prisoners in Abu Gharib was strip them naked... there must be something liberating indeed about that!

**Ulysses** · 10-11-2006

You are a fascinating group of people. It is amazing that you do not see the irony. Here we are on the world wide web engaging in a discourse on "your site," according to your rules, in a global communications medium that has been introduced into your lives by secular humanisms.

You are actively engaging in this discourse, in this medium, in this secular cyber world from whence I am spawned. A cyber world based on rationality, on empiricism, on science. Yet you seek to define your small portion of this cyber world in terms of exclusion, and with hubris reference to your eventual "triumph" over that very secular world in which you have been drawn like moths to a flame.

There is a saying, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. It may take a few generations for this axiom to permeate into your worldview, and there may perish the thought, be great cataclsym along the way. But faith and hope have never been the fundaments of good strategy nor of victory. If there was not so much destructiveness and hatred being tossed about in association with the whole thing, it would almost be endearingly absurd.

What I've learned does not quiet my heart, nor sooth the hurt which brought the the tears I wept on that morning of September 11th, 2001 as the leaves so colorful and rustling fell from the trees at Yale . . .

**Ibn Abi Ahmed** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Ulysses

That is what you say. I say PROVE IT. Prove to us in a way that I will not be able to refute that this young lady is going to suffer in the afterlife for not wearing restrictive, disempowering, and alienating clothing that turn her into a piece of property to be owned by a man.

The same scare-talk has been used by theocrats and cultists to control the behaviors of the innocent and the naive for at least the last 10,000 years.

Here is what I say to you young lady. Think for yourself. Follow your heart, for therein lies true goodness and piety. There is nothing sinful about the human body, it is the mind of dogmatist which attribute their own lustful thoughts to the forms of others.

That is matter of faith. Whether you believe or not, that is upto you. We are not here to make you beleive.

Sister, Fear Allah and dont take the advice of the Disbelievers over the advice of your brothers and sisters. Allah is promising you a promise of Truth. They are promising you a promise of falsehood. They will never bear your deeds nor will they help you in the least. Fear Allah and stick to wearing it. We are only advising you because we care about you as our sister in Islam and we dont any harm to afflict our brethren or our sisters. Indeed Allah will, if He wills, make you and us of the successful Inshallah.

14: 22. And Shaitan (Satan) will say when the matter has been decided: "Verily, Allah promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, so you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me (Satan) as a partner with Allah (by obeying me in the life of the world). Verily, there is a painful torment for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)."

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Ulysses

What I've learned does not quiet my heart, nor sooth the hurt which brought the the tears I wept on that morning of September 11th, 2001 as the leaves so colorful and rustling fell from the trees at Yale . . .

maybe you should vote democratic next time......
http://www.911truth.org/

So incredibly "well educated"... yet so driven by the same herd mentality... that he dares stand and accuse us of! what a joke!!!

**Ibn Abi Ahmed** · 10-11-2006

Originally Posted by Ulysses

But seriously, why try to scare the girl with references to an imaginary place that one can only experience after death!? What possible mutualistic benefit could that provide to her, you or anyone else?

Someone is going to be very disappointed once they die.

But here back to factual reality: 79% of humanity do not agree that your body is a vehicle of sin that you must cover up and hide in order to be a good person. So take solace in that and question the authority which has reduced you to your current state. That is what many of us did when we were adolescents. It is not easy even in an indulgent society, and to be fair to the extremely conservative view being proposed by my self-determined adversaries, an overly indulgent society can indeed make it all much, much worse.

Dont you get it? It doesnt matter to us what humanity thinks. They can think anything that they wish and even if that percentage above was 99 and we were the 1% we would still never accept what you are asking us to accept. What humanity thinks isnt neccasarily correct. Sun revoloving around the earth theory ring a bell?

**جوري** · 10-11-2006

I am not even sure which humanity he is talking about... how scientific is his poll really?
1.4 billion are Muslim
1 billion Hindu
2 billion xtian
15 million Jews
rest everything else
and somehow he got a consensus from all these people Muslims and all who account for one in 5 people that it is horrible to be modest in your dress? ahaha.. I mean even Judaism and Christianity preach the same exact thing.....or was it the latest anti-Islamic poll?... with which the regulars frequent to solidify their hatred and views?

what he does with his life is inconsequential, it is when he comes here with utmost insolence and bravado like a one man liberator to do the exact thing he preaches against that is really amusing... but for some inexplicable reason doesn't see it that way? ... Guess we all use defense mechanisms but over usage is a bit alarming....