Sami Zaatari's Refutations

salam all, now i know u have all heard this topic over and over again. however so this one is slightly different because the missionary brings up quite a few different arguments that have not really been used before regarding this topic. basically the missionary is getting new tactics in how to deal with this incident, however so the new tactic completly fails as u will shortly see, lol i really think u guys shud read this as u will see what a complete joke the missionary makes of himself, and how the missionary also insults his own god!

http://muslim-responses.com/Aisha_/Aisha_

salam all, one common missionary claim is that abu afak and bint marwan were killed for mocking! lol what a lie, as i said in my small interview, missionaries only DISTORT the Islamic sources and make things up, let us see what REALLY HAPPENED:

http://muslim-responses.com/Abu_Afak...Afak_and_Asma_

Hi Sami Zaatari,

well it been a while since i have seen your post, but now you have transformed them into a single refutation thread dude.

yet i have only three questions for you

1. All the post you refer seem to be your own posts, why is it so?

2. was it all created by you?

3. give us the source of those post like webpage link other than your webpage?

Since i was curious to know the answers for these questions i hope you would give me some straight answers.........

salam all, one common argument thrown against muslims and Islam is that Islam allows and advocates slavery etc etc, but what is Islam's position on slavery?:

http://muslim-responses.com/islam_on...am_on_slavery_

no other text or law comes even close to what Islam brought concerning slavery and slaves.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari

salam all, one common argument thrown against muslims and Islam is that Islam allows and advocates slavery etc etc, but what is Islam's position on slavery?:

http://muslim-responses.com/islam_on...am_on_slavery_

no other text or law comes even close to what Islam brought concerning slavery and slaves.

Good to read that. I have a feeling that this one will come in very handy when the next school year rolls around...Not to say that the other ones are useless, it's just that this one is extra special. =D

Thanks for making this thread, Sami. =D

format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari

the verses clearly say GOD HATES, so plz dont come make up your own interpretation, your so funny do you think were idiots?

I suppose you that was a typo and you meant to say, "do you think we are idiots?"

Answer: Not everyone.

i even quoted the bible, its not like what they do, claiming Allah is a moon god and prodiving no sources,

Herein lays the problem. The over generalizations. Find any place on this board, or any place else on any board or any of my personal writings where I have even hinted at that opnion. It cannot be done. Yet you used a very inclusive description, "they".

when i make ANY claim i always bring the passages to back it up, naturally they will get upset, but not cause i am insulting or whatever.

Though you have been insulting in your personal remarks in these last few posts. It is insulting because you have not treated me as a person, you have lumped me in with a group and have begun to attack the group rather than limiting debate to what I challenged.

And I do appreciate that you have always given good verse references, even if I do think that you often misunderstand their application. But you know what? You are right with regard to the Esau verse. I will admit that. I need to take a look at that a second time. I'm not convinced that it is enough to paint a picture of God as one who hates. Scripture tells us plainly, "God is love."

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

The number of verses that talk about this aspect of God's character drawfs those that speak of God hating. And as I said, in general you will find the context is not about God's character, but about God's reaction to something in particular that needs to be changed. For instance, doing a quick search, the only place in the entire Bible where it has the subject/verb in the form "God hates" is Deuteronomy 16:21-22 "Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the LORD your God, and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates." Here the problem being addressed is idolatry. And God does hate certain things: idolatry, sin, those who try to usurp God's authority and place in the world, those who do not respect God for who God is. However, once again, I would assert that it is not the individual that God is hating, but the activity that have chosen to partake of. If that activity defines them, then it defines their relationship with God.

Now, as to Esau, and this took only a few minutes not hours. Note that in Romans 9:13 the context, see it is important and you did miss it, is "as it written". So, to understand this passage one has to look back to where Paul took the reference from to understand the verse. That reference is to the prophet Malachi. And spending the 3 seconds it take to flip back to Malachi, one sees the larger context. Malachi is a prophet of God calling the people to repentence. But some of them question their need to repent and others question what difference it makes, questioning God's love for them:

Malachi 1
2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."
4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'

Here God is declaring his love for Jacob, i.e. Israel (they are one and the same). But the nation question it. "How have you loved us?" And so God calls to their mind the difference in the way that the two brothers faired in life. Jacob did receive his father's blessing and Esau did not. God says that he is the reason behind that. (Now remember he is talking to the nation of Israel, i.e. Jacob, not to Esau.) Of course, there are those who don't really think they need God, that they can, using an American colloquialism, pull themselves up with their own bootstraps. And God simply says that it isn't so.

So, what is the problem. The problem is what God lays out in the following verses -- this too is part of the context and needs to be understood to understand this verse.

6 "A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?" says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name.
"But you ask, 'How have we shown contempt for your name?'
7 "You place defiled food on my altar.
"But you ask, 'How have we defiled you?'
"By saying that the LORD's table is contemptible. 8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?" says the LORD Almighty.

9 "Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?"-says the LORD Almighty.

10 "Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you," says the LORD Almighty, "and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

12 "But you profane it by saying of the Lord's table, 'It is defiled,' and of its food, 'It is contemptible.' 13 And you say, 'What a burden!' and you sniff at it contemptuously," says the LORD Almighty.
"When you bring injured, crippled or diseased animals and offer them as sacrifices, should I accept them from your hands?" says the LORD. 14 "Cursed is the cheat who has an acceptable male in his flock and vows to give it, but then sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord. For I am a great king," says the LORD Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.

In a nutshell, the people are dissing God. They are disrespecting him. They are cheating him. So, what does God do? He says,

"And now this admonition is for you, O priests. If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "I will send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me. Because of you I will rebuke your descendants." (Malachi 2:1-3a)

Note the word - "rebuke". Indeed, as I suggested that is what this is about also.

You see, if you know the story of Jacob and Esau (and you probably do, but maybe others reading this would not) Esau as the firstborn would have expected to inherit the birthright and receive his father's blessing. But Jacob got both of those. Part of it was because Jacob was a conviving trickster. But part of it was because Esau simply did not value it and was willing to sell it cheap. And just as Esau did not respect his father enough to live so as to receive the blessing, so too Jacob's descendants ought not to assume that their favor with God is a guarantee. If they live in such a way as to not respect God, then they have no more guarantee of all the blessings they have received than Esau.

That is what I mean by reading the context.

Oh, and one last thing, while the English word is indeed "hated", the Greek word used in Romans is miseo which literally means to love less. Seems to fit the context nicely and took me another 2 minutes to look up.


And one more last thing. While you may not have been directly calling me anti-Islamic, it sure seemed like you were coming awfully close to doing so. You don't know me. So, I don't know how it is that you can jump to such a fast conclusion. Now, you didn't come right out and say it, so maybe I should just leave it at that. But, before you go painting all non-Muslims with a big broad anti-Islamic brush, I encourage you to get to know us as individuals. It could be that a few of us might just happen to surprise you. However, I don't feel a need to respond. If they desire I would rather let the brothers and sisters I have been in more frequent dialogue with voice their opinions as to exactly just how anti-Islamic I am.

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah

But evil is a part of this world too- does God also love evil? I'm sure you don't think he does... How 'inclusive' is this statement?



Is there difference? If there is, I don't see it. It is still hate, and it is still hate directed at those who do wrong, isn't it?

I read your explanation about how God hated Esau, and you seem to be justifying it by showing how evil the guy was. I don't understand what difference it makes? Obviously God only hates the evil doers, but Christians claims that God loves even the evil doers. But apparently not this guy?

Well, first, I do not think that evil or the devil (nor even rocks and trees) are included in the statement, "for God so loved the world", I think the term "world" is used in reference specifically to people, not things.

Second, regarding evil, I said God does hate evil. God does hate sin. Hate and love are very closely linked to one another as human emotions. But in terms of God, love is not really an emotion, but an action. And when we copy God's love, our love to becomes not just an emotion but an action.

Rather, than: "Gee, I'm so sorry to hear that you haven't had anything to eat in a week. Well, remember that God loves you." It becomes, "What? You haven't had anything to eat in a week. Well, let me get you some bread." But there are some who don't want to have anything to do with God. Thus, they can't really receive God's love. I believe that Esau is still loved by God, even as he does not experience it. Should Esau return to God, Esau will experience that wonderful love which is unconditional, unless you consider as a uncodition that you must be willing to accept it.

Heck, and there is no verse to prove this, I believe that should the devil ever repent of his sin of rebellion and submit himself to God's authority that you would find God accepting even the devil again.

So, it isn't anyone's evilness that causes God to reject them. It is their own evilness that causes them to turn their back on God and not receive his love. That condition of living outside of God's love is the equivalent of hate, but God is not the cause.

Does that help?

Exposing Robert Spencers inconsistency:

http://muslim-responses.com/Robert_S...Inconsistency_

im sure many of you know this anti-islamic, the self-proclaimed scholar on Islam! robert spencer just like many other anti-islamic 'scholars' just show their lack of objectivity and consistency, what can you expect? his own arguments refute his own bible!

does surah 2 verses 191 preach terrorism? anti-Islamics always bring this verse up and they quote part of it saying slay them wherever you find them. they quote the verse out of context and then mis-interpret it! as they do with many other verses.

http://muslim-responses.com/Slay_the...you_find_them_

the verse is about self defense,not offensive genocide!

Mr. Zaatari, do you have any counter-rebuttals to Grace Seeker?

no thank u, im not going to waste time forever on back forth text, i only take my time on articles or a live debate. and from the first response i got on god hates some ppl proves that seeker is simply not worth the time to spend on.

Is there a contradiction regarding the destrucion of Aad as some anti-Islamics claim? The basic argument is that the Quran says it took a day to destroy Aad then says it took 8 days to destroy Aad so which one is it, day or days. :

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Dest...uction_of_Aad_

no contradiction, just blatant distortion and deception.

Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari

Is there a contradiction regarding the destrucion of Aad as some anti-Islamics claim? The basic argument is that the Quran says it took a day to destroy Aad then says it took 8 days to destroy Aad so which one is it, day or days. :

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Dest...uction_of_Aad_

no contradiction, just blatant distortion and deception.

From the latest refutation:

All surah 54 verse 19 says is that Allah carried out a punishment of the people of Ad on a day of contestant calamity for them

I think you might want to check that...

Peace