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Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?' (OP)





    Most people say that Islaam forced people from other lands to become muslim.


    We usually get the muslim response that this isn't the case, and that 'there is no compulsion in religion':

    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]


    Then people usually ask why islaam spread to other lands, why couldn't the people just go to the other lands and call the public to islaam. Why couldn't the muslims go in the streets of the other nation and give the people leaflets, pamphlets explaining the truth and reality of islaam?


    The answer to this is simple; 1400yrs ago - nearly in every nation a person was bound to follow the religion of his/her ruler. If a person turned away from the religion of the nation/ruler, they were likely to be executed straightaway.


    We know that this was the case when an arab [located on the border of Al-Sham/Greater Syria] who was a former ally with the Byzantinian Romans became muslim, he was executed by the Byzantinians. This shows that the people weren't allowed to follow another way of life other than what their ruler followed, otherwise they would face death.

    This is also the case with Khisra, the ruler of Persia who tore up the letter recieved by the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) - because he never wanted his people to follow another religion, otherwise he could lose his authority.



    Therefore if the ruler was christian, the people were forced to follow that religion. Anyone who was in Iraq/Iran would have to follow Zoroastrianism. Anyone who was in India would have to follow hinduism etc. This happened for many centuries in the world, it was also at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him), and continued for many centuries even after that.



    What did Islaam come to do? It came to the oppressive rulers and gave them one of 3 options:


    1) Become muslim.

    2) Pay Jizya [a small tax] and you will be under the protection of the muslims.

    3)
    If you don't want to accept the above, then fight.


    That might seem violent, but lets look at it this way - all the nations of the world would force the people to follow the religion of their ruler.


    When islaam came, it abolished this ideology of following the faith of your ruler, and because the people were living under oppression anyway by these rulers, who were taking advantage of the people. At the same time these oppressive rulers may have taxed the people heavily, because all they had in their mind was to keep the poor - poor, and keep themselves rich.



    So what options did the muslims give to these oppressive governments?


    The government had one of the 3 choices mentioned above.



    1) They could either accept islaam and become brothers and sisters in faith, the muslims would allow these people to keep their land and wealth etc. But at the same time they would have to rule with the justice of Islaam. This would give safety to those who wanted to accept islaam within the nation because no-one could harm them if they wanted to accept the truth.

    2) They could pay Jizya [a small tax] and this would be used to strengthen the security of the state, and also to help the needy etc. The benefits with this tax would be that, the people who lived in the state - they would keep their land, wealth, their honor and blood would be protected - which means their oppressive rulers can't harm them no more, and if anyone waged war against them - the muslims would fight on their behalf.

    Compare this to the oppressive rulers before who would tax the people heavily, take over their lands, take their wealth, even harm them physically and take away their honor because all these people wanted was this life, they wanted to keep their empire so keeping the poor - weak would make them feel superior and feel less under a threat.


    3) Or the war would take place. The muslims would actually tell the enemy that within 3 days the opposing government has to make a decision. If they don't accept either terms 1 or 2, they will be fought against. This gave the enemy time to think carefully and the muslims trustworthiness meant that they weren't ready to be attacked at any moment, rather the muslims would fight only when they had said so, unlike other enemies who may have done a surprise attack without notice.

    The muslims would fight the government until the muslims had authority in the land, and then the justice would be set for the public. 1400yrs ago, if a nation took over a land - the people there would become slaves of the rulers. However, when islaam had authority the people were still free and could either pay Jizya (option 2) or become muslim without the threat of being killed.




    Muslims were only told to fight against those who fought them. The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

    “Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” (Abu Dawud)

    “Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal)



    The people living in the state, whether muslim or non muslim were under the protection of the muslim government and like mentioned earlier, their blood and honor was protected. They weren't forced to become muslim, but due to this justice alot actually became muslim.

    Those who never accepted islaam were allowed to rule by their own scripture, and they even had their own courts. However the major crimes would be taken to authority, and would be dealt with justly. Even if a non muslim was wronged, they would have the right to equity.



    If anyone mentions situations which may have happened in muslim history in which the muslims were unjust, realise that we don't take our example from them - rather we take it from the example of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him), and the way of his companions, who all applied justice. It was only after that some people ruled with oppression. Islaam is perfect, muslims aren't.





    Someone might claim that alot of countries today allow people to follow a religion of their choice without being executed for switching religions. So why is this rule of: 1) Become Muslim 2) Jizya 3) Fight. come into it? Why is it still an islamic rule? Isn't this just an ancient idea now?

    We simply say that it has only been a few centuries since the idea of 'being executed' for not following the religion of the state has been abolished [Especially in the west.]

    We have seen an increase in the amount of people from other parts of the world settling in other nations (especially the west) where you have the right to follow your religion and not be harmed. And this is a basic rule in islaam, that the muslims are allowed to live in a state which allows the muslims to practise their religion freely.





    Why don't the muslims go to other nations to fight and have authority in the land like the past?


    Allaah Almighty out of His Eternal Wisdom has made the world in a situation that the events leading to the final hour [i.e. Judgement Day] are coming to pass. One of these events has been prophecised by the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) who said:


    Narrated Thawban:


    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their dish.



    Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?



    He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts.



    Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him):



    He replied: Love of the world and dislike of death.

    Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4284.



    We can see this today, where we have wahn in our hearts - when the love of this world has entered our hearts, over the love of the hereafter [i.e. Paradise.]


    Where we have deviated from the religion of Allaah/God Almighty, so we have turned away from establishing Allaah's Just law on the earth. So the oppressors can oppress, and the weak stay poor. This is still taking place in the materialistic world we live in today. Where the people are put under pressure to get the latest things, in order to be respected or accepted by society. The media is our 'guidance' and if we turn away from this 'guidance' - we are looked down upon by the public. Then something new comes out and the gadget you got before is 'old' and you need to move forward, otherwise you're looked down upon again. Where if you don't move forward with society, you're left alone.. rejected.


    It's a continous circle, and we as muslims have fallen into it. We've actually become the slaves of this society, even though the purpose of this life is to be the slave of our own Creator, Allaah Almighty.

    Due to this attatchment to this world, we have turned away from the guidance which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him.) Which means we have stopped striving for Allaah's cause, and in return for that - we are facing the humiliation on earth we see today.



    So - no, the establishment of justice with the law of Allaah, isn't 'ancient' - rather we are becoming slaves of society instead of slaves of Allaah. The real life is the afterlife, and the establishment of Justice for Allaah's sake holds a huge reward in this world and the hereafter. This can only come through striving in order to please Allaah, and with your sincerety - you will see the fruits inshaa'Allaah [God willing.] If not in this world, in the real life of the eternal hereafter.. where you can have all that you desire, and more. They are pleased with Allaah, and He is pleased with them. That is the great victory.





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    Malaikah's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    The sword was not used because they didn't convert, it was used for their act of treason.

    Huge difference!
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Clear your mind man, it doesn't seem to be sitting in your head.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah View Post
    The sword was not used because they didn't convert, it was used for their act of treason.

    Huge difference!
    It is amazing. Does any one read? It isn't about thoes that were executed or why they were executed.:rant:
    It is about those that were spaired the sword because they converted. :rolleyes:
    It seams obvious to me that they were converted by the sword. laying:

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    It is amazing. Does any one read? It isn't about thoes that were executed or why they were executed.:rant:
    It is about those that were spaired the sword because they converted. :rolleyes:
    It seams obvious to me that they were converted by the sword. laying:
    I'm afraid I agree with wilberhum. If one is executed for not converting, then that person's life was taken because they didn't convert. One less non-Muslim to get in the way.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi View Post
    I'm afraid I agree with wilberhum. If one is executed for not converting, then that person's life was taken because they didn't convert. One less non-Muslim to get in the way.

    Keltoi, have you actually read what i posted? These people got executed because of their crime of treason. They would have got killed anyway even though they were safe before because they upheld their treaty, until the battle of the trench where they broke it off [preparing to kill the muslim women, children and seniors.]

    Due to the fact that their intention was to kill the muslims - the same punishment was applied upon them. An exception to the rule was that they become muslim because we, and even you as a christian understand the concept of good and bad deeds. And we know that if someone becomes muslim, all their past bad deeds are erased.

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    Smile Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    About Islam:

    Islaam is not a religion of arms and swords! When Allaah Almighty revealed the Noble Qur'ân to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and Muhammad became the Messenger of GOD Almighty, Muhammad had to spread Islaam to 365 Pagan Arab Tribes. These tribes showed so much hostility toward the Muslims and Islaam, and have imposed so many battles against the Muslims.

    Later, when Islaam was the religion of what we call today Saudi Arabia, and the 365 Pagan Arab tribes mostly converted to Islaam, the Muslims had to yet face another type of challenge.

    The Nuclear Soviet Union and the United States of America of our days were the Great Empires of the Christian Romans and the Pagan Persians. If you know geography and history well enough, then you would see that the Muslims were trapped between those two big Super Powers.

    Hostility and Battles from those two Empires were imposed upon the Muslims. For instance, when our Prophet peace be upon him sent his messenger to "Kisrah", the Emperor of Persia, introducing Islaam to him, Kisrah ordered for the Muslims' Messenger to be executed!

    Back then, like today, this was considered a coward act. It was the Persians who showed the hostility toward the Muslims and declared the many battles against Islaam.

    The Christian Romans weren't any better. For instance, in one of their many battles against the Muslims is when they saw the threat to their religion in the Middle East, the King "Herucl", sent out an army of 100,000 men and ordered them to go to "Madina" in what we call today Saudi Arabia to destroy Islaam once and for all.

    The Muslims were not stable yet at that time, and they only sent out an army of 3,000 men at that time to drive the Christian Romans away from Madina. The battle was named "The battle of Mo'ta" and it took place in Mo'ta, Jordan today.

    The Muslims' plan was to meet the Christian Romans far away from Madina, and to have them stray away from Madina. The army of 3,000 men was successful enough to fight the Christian Romans for few days and then to pull away from the battle and headed South of Jordan. The Romans strayed away from Madina and the small army of the Muslims was able to run away through the mountains. More than half of the 3,000 Muslims however were killed in this operation.

    The point is that Islaam didn't spread by sword with much choice. The wars were imposed upon the Muslims. The Muslims didn't ask for those wars.

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah View Post
    Keltoi, have you actually read what i posted? These people got executed because of their crime of treason. They would have got killed anyway even though they were safe before because they upheld their treaty, until the battle of the trench where they broke it off [preparing to kill the muslim women, children and seniors.]

    Due to the fact that their intention was to kill the muslims - the same punishment was applied upon them. An exception to the rule was that they become muslim because we, and even you as a christian understand the concept of good and bad deeds. And we know that if someone becomes muslim, all their past bad deeds are erased.
    You're right, sorry. I misunderstood the context to be the execution of those who refused to convert to Islam. I didn't catch the details of the situation.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

    Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

    Assalamu 'alaykum,

    ummm, i didn't real the whole thread, cuz i don't have too!

    the misperception that folks have is between conquering and converting! the Muslim Ummah may have conquered by the sword, but people were given a choice between conversion, vacating and paying the jizzya! (jizzya would be staying put and practicing your religion, but paying a tax; said tax was LESS than the REQUIRED zakat that Muslims HAD to pay!)

    it's that simple!


    [session 32 or 33 of the Seerah sessions Fi_Sibilillah! ]



    Yusuf
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire
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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Islamic rule was spread by the sword. It is a fact. Not just in Arabia (which was the most peaceful Islamic rule), but collapsing the Byzantine & Sassanid empires.

    In those areas, Islam--becoming Muslim--was not spread by the sword, generally. The Mawali were even put down for accepting Islam. It took several centuries for it to "take" with the locals. And even conquerors like the Mongols became Muslims.

    I think the best example is South Asia: people became Muslims without any political enticement or Islamic rule, and that is the most populous Muslim region. Islam works better when it is organic and personal, not when it is spreading an empire.

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by brenton View Post
    Islamic rule was spread by the sword. It is a fact. Not just in Arabia (which was the most peaceful Islamic rule), but collapsing the Byzantine & Sassanid empires.

    In those areas, Islam--becoming Muslim--was not spread by the sword, generally. The Mawali were even put down for accepting Islam. It took several centuries for it to "take" with the locals. And even conquerors like the Mongols became Muslims.
    Thank you!!! This is exactly the point I've tried to make so many times, the distinction is so important but everyone over looks it.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    Ya it really was that way wasn't it. And again it has nothing to do with what they did or why they did it. It has nothing to do with whether or not the punishment was just. The only point I am making was, if they didn't convert, the sword was used. Now I don't care what you call it. I call it conversion by the sword.
    Er, if muslims were converting by sword, why give the option of jiziya (tax)?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis View Post
    Er, if muslims were converting by sword, why give the option of jiziya (tax)?
    I don't think jiziya was offered to the Banû Qurayza. laying:

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Any chance you find out for sure instead of just thinking?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    ^^Exactly.
    All non Muslims were offered Jizya. Maybe u should stop replying ignorantly. How can u claim to know anything about Islamic history when u dont even know this much?
    Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 02-06-2007 at 05:57 PM.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis View Post
    Any chance you find out for sure instead of just thinking?
    Maybe you need to find out for sure instead of just thinking.
    Do you have a clue who the Banû Qurayza were or what there story is?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba View Post
    ^^Exactly.
    All non Muslims were offered Jizya. Maybe u should stop replying ignorantly. How can u claim to know anything about Islamic history when u dont even know this much?
    Wow, I am really impressed. Obviously you don't konw some of your history either. All almost never works, because there are almost allways excptions.

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Are u kiddin me, u make comments that are wrong even after someone says how somethin was.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

  23. #38
    wilberhum's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba View Post
    Your asking as if u know more?
    I know better about this one fact. I'm just amazed at the denial/excuses it receives.

  24. #39
    Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Lol, sure mate.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    Maybe you need to find out for sure instead of just thinking.
    Do you have a clue who the Banû Qurayza were or what there story is?
    It's not me who's thinking. And I do have more than a clue about who the Banu Qurayza were. They agreed to aid the Meccans in their attack on Medina. That's asking to be slaughtered.


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