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Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?' (OP)





    Most people say that Islaam forced people from other lands to become muslim.


    We usually get the muslim response that this isn't the case, and that 'there is no compulsion in religion':

    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]


    Then people usually ask why islaam spread to other lands, why couldn't the people just go to the other lands and call the public to islaam. Why couldn't the muslims go in the streets of the other nation and give the people leaflets, pamphlets explaining the truth and reality of islaam?


    The answer to this is simple; 1400yrs ago - nearly in every nation a person was bound to follow the religion of his/her ruler. If a person turned away from the religion of the nation/ruler, they were likely to be executed straightaway.


    We know that this was the case when an arab [located on the border of Al-Sham/Greater Syria] who was a former ally with the Byzantinian Romans became muslim, he was executed by the Byzantinians. This shows that the people weren't allowed to follow another way of life other than what their ruler followed, otherwise they would face death.

    This is also the case with Khisra, the ruler of Persia who tore up the letter recieved by the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) - because he never wanted his people to follow another religion, otherwise he could lose his authority.



    Therefore if the ruler was christian, the people were forced to follow that religion. Anyone who was in Iraq/Iran would have to follow Zoroastrianism. Anyone who was in India would have to follow hinduism etc. This happened for many centuries in the world, it was also at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him), and continued for many centuries even after that.



    What did Islaam come to do? It came to the oppressive rulers and gave them one of 3 options:


    1) Become muslim.

    2) Pay Jizya [a small tax] and you will be under the protection of the muslims.

    3)
    If you don't want to accept the above, then fight.


    That might seem violent, but lets look at it this way - all the nations of the world would force the people to follow the religion of their ruler.


    When islaam came, it abolished this ideology of following the faith of your ruler, and because the people were living under oppression anyway by these rulers, who were taking advantage of the people. At the same time these oppressive rulers may have taxed the people heavily, because all they had in their mind was to keep the poor - poor, and keep themselves rich.



    So what options did the muslims give to these oppressive governments?


    The government had one of the 3 choices mentioned above.



    1) They could either accept islaam and become brothers and sisters in faith, the muslims would allow these people to keep their land and wealth etc. But at the same time they would have to rule with the justice of Islaam. This would give safety to those who wanted to accept islaam within the nation because no-one could harm them if they wanted to accept the truth.

    2) They could pay Jizya [a small tax] and this would be used to strengthen the security of the state, and also to help the needy etc. The benefits with this tax would be that, the people who lived in the state - they would keep their land, wealth, their honor and blood would be protected - which means their oppressive rulers can't harm them no more, and if anyone waged war against them - the muslims would fight on their behalf.

    Compare this to the oppressive rulers before who would tax the people heavily, take over their lands, take their wealth, even harm them physically and take away their honor because all these people wanted was this life, they wanted to keep their empire so keeping the poor - weak would make them feel superior and feel less under a threat.


    3) Or the war would take place. The muslims would actually tell the enemy that within 3 days the opposing government has to make a decision. If they don't accept either terms 1 or 2, they will be fought against. This gave the enemy time to think carefully and the muslims trustworthiness meant that they weren't ready to be attacked at any moment, rather the muslims would fight only when they had said so, unlike other enemies who may have done a surprise attack without notice.

    The muslims would fight the government until the muslims had authority in the land, and then the justice would be set for the public. 1400yrs ago, if a nation took over a land - the people there would become slaves of the rulers. However, when islaam had authority the people were still free and could either pay Jizya (option 2) or become muslim without the threat of being killed.




    Muslims were only told to fight against those who fought them. The Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

    “Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” (Abu Dawud)

    “Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal)



    The people living in the state, whether muslim or non muslim were under the protection of the muslim government and like mentioned earlier, their blood and honor was protected. They weren't forced to become muslim, but due to this justice alot actually became muslim.

    Those who never accepted islaam were allowed to rule by their own scripture, and they even had their own courts. However the major crimes would be taken to authority, and would be dealt with justly. Even if a non muslim was wronged, they would have the right to equity.



    If anyone mentions situations which may have happened in muslim history in which the muslims were unjust, realise that we don't take our example from them - rather we take it from the example of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him), and the way of his companions, who all applied justice. It was only after that some people ruled with oppression. Islaam is perfect, muslims aren't.





    Someone might claim that alot of countries today allow people to follow a religion of their choice without being executed for switching religions. So why is this rule of: 1) Become Muslim 2) Jizya 3) Fight. come into it? Why is it still an islamic rule? Isn't this just an ancient idea now?

    We simply say that it has only been a few centuries since the idea of 'being executed' for not following the religion of the state has been abolished [Especially in the west.]

    We have seen an increase in the amount of people from other parts of the world settling in other nations (especially the west) where you have the right to follow your religion and not be harmed. And this is a basic rule in islaam, that the muslims are allowed to live in a state which allows the muslims to practise their religion freely.





    Why don't the muslims go to other nations to fight and have authority in the land like the past?


    Allaah Almighty out of His Eternal Wisdom has made the world in a situation that the events leading to the final hour [i.e. Judgement Day] are coming to pass. One of these events has been prophecised by the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) who said:


    Narrated Thawban:


    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their dish.



    Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?



    He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts.



    Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him):



    He replied: Love of the world and dislike of death.

    Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4284.



    We can see this today, where we have wahn in our hearts - when the love of this world has entered our hearts, over the love of the hereafter [i.e. Paradise.]


    Where we have deviated from the religion of Allaah/God Almighty, so we have turned away from establishing Allaah's Just law on the earth. So the oppressors can oppress, and the weak stay poor. This is still taking place in the materialistic world we live in today. Where the people are put under pressure to get the latest things, in order to be respected or accepted by society. The media is our 'guidance' and if we turn away from this 'guidance' - we are looked down upon by the public. Then something new comes out and the gadget you got before is 'old' and you need to move forward, otherwise you're looked down upon again. Where if you don't move forward with society, you're left alone.. rejected.


    It's a continous circle, and we as muslims have fallen into it. We've actually become the slaves of this society, even though the purpose of this life is to be the slave of our own Creator, Allaah Almighty.

    Due to this attatchment to this world, we have turned away from the guidance which was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him.) Which means we have stopped striving for Allaah's cause, and in return for that - we are facing the humiliation on earth we see today.



    So - no, the establishment of justice with the law of Allaah, isn't 'ancient' - rather we are becoming slaves of society instead of slaves of Allaah. The real life is the afterlife, and the establishment of Justice for Allaah's sake holds a huge reward in this world and the hereafter. This can only come through striving in order to please Allaah, and with your sincerety - you will see the fruits inshaa'Allaah [God willing.] If not in this world, in the real life of the eternal hereafter.. where you can have all that you desire, and more. They are pleased with Allaah, and He is pleased with them. That is the great victory.





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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis View Post
    It's not me who's thinking. And I do have more than a clue about who the Banu Qurayza were. They agreed to aid the Meccans in their attack on Medina. That's asking to be slaughtered.
    I think this is the 3 time. :mad:
    My point has nothing to do with who or why there were executed.
    It only has to do with those that were not executed and why.

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    Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Which u keep ignoring, btw. Shall i repeat it step by step like this?:
    The Bani Qurayza.
    broke the Treaty they signed.
    which was supposed too protect.
    the people of Madina.
    so they can attack.
    the Muslims...Comprende? or am i going too fast?
    Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 02-06-2007 at 06:29 PM.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba View Post
    Which u keep ignoring, btw. Shall i repeat it step by step like this?:
    The Bani Qurayza
    broke the Treaty they signed
    which was supposed too protect
    the people of Madina.
    so they can attack
    the Muslims...Comprende?
    Totally.
    Do you have any comprende about those that did not die and why?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    I think this is the 3 time. :mad:
    My point has nothing to do with who or why there were executed.
    It only has to do with those that were not executed and why.
    lol :confused:

    I haven't read the previous posts.. so have no idea who you mean?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Because when you revert to Islam, your past sins are forgiven. They didnt continue killing like the rest. Those that continued to do it were not Muslim.
    C
    O
    M
    P
    R
    E
    N
    D
    E? Im definitely gunna get beat down for this LOL.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Oh now am on track

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis View Post
    lol :confused:

    I haven't read the previous posts.. so have no idea who you mean?
    Then why don't you read prior post instad of joining in when you don't know what is being addressed. :rant: :rant:

    I see you are on track now. Good.
    Last edited by wilberhum; 02-06-2007 at 06:36 PM.

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba View Post
    Because when you revert to Islam, your past sins are forgiven. They didnt continue killing like the rest. Those that continued to do it were not Muslim.
    C
    O
    M
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    R
    E
    N
    D
    E? Im definitely gunna get beat down for this LOL.
    So, they converted to Islam to be spaired the Sword. Kinda my point!

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    NO! man u dont get it. If it was the other way around like they were killed after reverting, you'd be saying how unjust it is. So either way ur view wouldnt change.
    Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 02-06-2007 at 06:40 PM.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    Then why don't you read prior post instad of joining in when you don't know what is being addressed. :rant: :rant:
    lol I started from when u replied me, that didn't include previous posts. Are u really angry?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba View Post
    Well duh!! If u get the concept! which is MY point.
    I have always understood your concept. Do you understand mine?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    Sorry i changed that, i realized what u said. And yes i do, which is incorrect for the bazillionth time! If u did understand it, you wouldnt be asking the same thing over and over. I only gave u bits and peices. How can u understand me when u didnt understand the people who gave u ALL of the info?

    Anyways im out, i sense someone watching me :X

    Peace
    Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 02-06-2007 at 06:53 PM.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    It is one thing to offer death or money or food (when you are starving) in exchange for conversion.
    It is different for someone to convert for gain--avoid taxes or negative incentives, to rise in ranks, financial partnerships, etc.
    Different things.

    This thread is not titled: has anyone ever been compelled to convert to Islam. I am sure there are cases--I've read about them, and that is just what corrupt humans do sometimes.

    Instead, the thread is titled: "Was Islam Spread by the Sword?" "Sword" is symbollic for a systematic forced conversion experience. If you take the phrase literally, yes, Islam was spread that way because along with the politics and war and empire building of early and later Islam, people converted. But I don't think the corelation is necessarily direct.

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    So, they converted to Islam to be spaired the Sword. Kinda my point!

    Firts of all i would say that boi you aint getting the point. To me it seems like you've already made up your mind about not wanting to understand the point. Like many people have already told you that they were beheaded because of their transgression. If islam really was spread by the sword than why would there still be so many disbeleivers even at that time. We could have had everyone being converted to islam using the sword. Even today there would be no point in dawah, we could just follow the actions of that time and use teh sword. Look at spain, muslim ruled it for so long, if we had really used the sword wouldn't spain be a muslim country today, like malaysia. No one went there with a sword. And even today so many people are converting to islam in US, who has got a sword on their head. Think about it now when there is so much going on in the media, people in US could easily choose not to convert as they may get into trouble. I'm not saying the sword wasn't there but not for the reason you think it was. I really think you should litsen to Dr.Zakir Naik and kinda try to get this thing the right way around you.

    It may have been a bit repetitive or off the topic but i really hope you get the point.

    May Allah forgive me for saying or referring to something incorrect.

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    they were beheaded because of their transgression.
    I think I stated 4 times that it had nothing to do with why they were executed.
    If islam really was spread by the sword than why would there still be so many disbeleivers
    Well one would have to be totally ignorant and stuped to think that Islam was only spread by the sword. I think I made that point in my first post.
    Did you not read it, or did you just forget.
    spain, muslim ruled it for so long, if we had really used the sword wouldn't spain be a muslim country today
    Well who would ever think that converersion by the sword would last? If the conversions were real then Spain would be a Muslim country.

    This as in all things, when you say or imply all, you are always wrong.

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    Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    This as in all things, when you say or imply all, you are always wrong.
    Speak for yourself mate.
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba View Post
    Speak for yourself mate.
    I only speak for myself. I can speak for no one else and no one else can speak for me.

    Who do you speak for?

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    This as in all things, when you say or imply all, you are always wrong.[/QUOTE]

    You know what ya we're not wrong, it's just as an agnostic your job is to doubt the truth of religion to find the truth. You have all right to question and but the fact that our statements aint satisfying to you is your problem, not us being wrong. A lot of ppl have provided reference to their explantion, why dont't you provide an explanation to why there is still people converting to islam today?:rolleyes:

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    If the conversions were fake, then why did the Christian rulers feel the need to force Muslims to convert? Or are u gunna say thats fake too :rolleyes:
    Is this a good Refutation?  'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

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    Re: Is this a good Refutation? 'Was Islam Spread by the Sword?'



    No worries, he gets the point but doesn't want to accept it. The law is in the governments hands and they apply the law according to their beliefs. The same way the nations do today. They release who they feel they should, and they kill whoever they want. Atleast the muslims stuck to their part of the treaty.

    By the way the Banu Quraydha actually payed the jizya, thats how they stayed in Medina for a while. Until the treason occured.



    Anyway thread closed.
    Last edited by - Qatada -; 02-06-2007 at 08:28 PM. Reason: sp? :p


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