Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

**Makky** · 07-04-2007

Peace be upon those who Follow the truth.
may Guidance be to those who search the Truth

In-sha'-Allah in this Thread Atheists, Will be exposed..Those among them who really search the truth will say nothing but confess Allah's existence. and those whom their hearts are full of arrogance haughtiness will just appear that they are just arguing.

This is an invitation to the greatest Atheists (

no Atheist is great ) in the world to debate here in this thread

this is a serious Challenge

I want the Mods. here to keep an eye on these thread

My Requests are :

1- Stopping All the side debates and the tree-arguments.
2- (if needed) Stopping comments of the forum members who are not involved in the debate (again if needed).
3-deleting posts that might crowd the thread.

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I will start in the name of Allah by posting Few photos and asking Atheists few questions.
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the questions are clear and simple so i wish the answers will be the same..
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Camouflage

Camouflage became an essential part of modern military tactics after the increase in accuracy and rate of fire of weapons at the end of the 19th century.In nature it was found that some living things have the ability to blend into their environment or conceal their shape; for prey animals to avoid predators and for predators to be able to sneak up on prey.

one of the amazing differences between Camouflage as a modern military tactic and Camouflage in nature is that human being use camouflage to blend into the surrounding, while in nature some animals and insects bodies are already camouflaged..

The leaf insect is our first example:

Look at this leaf!!! Look at those red spots and areas as if its a drying leaf

what about this dry leaf

i863237 310120061535062 - Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

could you imagine that this is an insect

i863247 310120061535061 - Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

a ribbed leaf?!?!

i863261 LeafInsect - Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

Sub7an Allah

i863276 bug1 - Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

Questions
1- Did this insect look at the mirror when it was born?
2-Does it know what the word camouflage means?
3-Even if it knows, could it draw a shap of leaf on its back a full detailed leaf even with ribs and dry spots?

Atheists!...Answer!

**جوري** · 07-04-2007

Sobhan Allah... I didn't see this insect before... fascinating

It is He who sends down water from the sky. From it you drink and from it come the shrubs among which you graze your herds. And by it He makes crops grow for you and olives and dates and grapes and fruit of every kind. . There is certainly a sign in that for people who reflect. He has made the night and the day subservient to you, and the sun, the moon and the stars, all subject to His command. There are certainly signs in that for people who use their intellect. And also the things of varying colors He has created for you in the earth. There is certainly a sign in that for people who pay heed. It is He who made the sea subservient to you so that you can eat fresh flesh from it and bring out from it ornaments to wear. And you see the ships cleaving through it so that you can seek His bounty, and so that perhaps you may show thanks. He cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so it would not move under you, and rivers and pathways so that perhaps you might be guided, and landmarks. And they are guided by the stars. Is He Who creates like him who does not create? So will you not pay heed? (Surat an-Nahl: 10-17)

For men and women of understanding, everything around them is a sign of this creation.
sorry I am not an Atheist/agnostic or a secular though, but did enjoy your post....

**Woodrow** · 07-04-2007

Quite interesting. Even stranger a scholar that comes to help me every day has just left. On many days when he comes to visit with me we have a social visit. Today my grandson(age 8) wanted to be part of our conversation. so today we had a long discussion about the animals and how nicely each one fit into its own niche and is perfectly designed to live the life it was created for.

That Leaf mantis is a perfect example.

**Makky** · 07-04-2007

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

For men and women of understanding, everything around them is a sign of this creation.
sorry I am not an Atheist/agnostic or a secular though, but did enjoy your post....

All people are welcome to POST

it seems that Atheists aren't brave enough to answer these questions

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 07-04-2007

interesting... i also cant wait to see the responce. Whilst there is indeed an explenation for everything, the root of every explenation is without a doubt Allah.

**ranma1/2** · 07-04-2007

Originally Posted by Makky

Questions[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]
1- Did this insect look at the mirror when it was born?
2-Does it know what the word camouflage means?
3-Even if it knows, could it draw a shap of leaf on its back a full detailed leaf even with ribs and dry spots?

Atheists!...Answer!

Thanks for the invite.
Your questions seem to be for evolutionists and not just atheists.
All 3 questions seem to be under the concept that animals can control how they look by desire. Evolution does not work that way. I would recommend reading about evo. Berkeley has a reasonably simple site.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

But just to give a basic explanation.
This camoflage was created through the process of natural selection. The insects that could blend in some had an advantage and were less likely to be eaten.
These advantages did not start out as a leaf but in steps. Essentially a insect that had 1% camo had a slight advantage over one that had 0%.
One that had 2% was slightly better than one that had 1% etc...

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 07-04-2007

^ yes but ranma the fact that animals have no free will and yet know perfectly how to utilize their comoflouge is indeed miraculous, dont you think so?

**nebula** · 07-04-2007

hey athiest

do u know evolution is completely false?

The design of the alveoli in our lungs is at a perfect state IF it was any different
from what it is now then we would not be able to breath at all. Therefore the alveoli cannot evolve due to evolution. It was made once and it hasn't changed.

please get your facts right

**ranma1/2** · 07-04-2007

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

^ yes but ranma the fact that animals have no free will and yet know perfectly how to utilize their comoflouge is indeed miraculous, dont you think so?

could you explain what you mean by free will? TO my knowledge they have free will as much as we do. And behavior is also a part of evo. Nothing special about it. Once again. Those creatures that would act in a certain way even if only at 1% might have had an advantage over those that didnt.

what behavior are you talking about anyway?

**nebula** · 07-04-2007

[QUOTE=nebula;785025]

do u know evolution is completely false?

The design of the alveoli in our lungs is at a perfect state IF it was any different
from what it is now then we would not be able to breath at all. Therefore the alveoli cannot evolve due to evolution. It was made once and it hasn't changed.

He didn't have anything to say to my post aye?

**Woodrow** · 07-04-2007

If we are to look at life as a continuous process of advancing towards a perfect life form. Than life on earth has gone in the wrong direction. For simple existance and the certainty of the spread of gametes, the amoeba is probably the ideal life form. It is virtually indestructible, Perfectly adapted for life in nearly every climate condition, able to remain dormant for an indefinite period of time if climate changes require. Is asexual for reproduction and has no need to seek out others of it's kind.

When thinking in terms of life and only life, everything beyond the amoeba is a reduction in certainty for preservation of the species.

They was no need for life to advance beyond unicellular level. Must be some pupose in us other than mere preservation and distribution of gametes.

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 07-04-2007

Originally Posted by ranma1/2

could you explain what you mean by free will? TO my knowledge they have free will as much as we do. And behavior is also a part of evo. Nothing special about it. Once again. Those creatures that would act in a certain way even if only at 1% might have had an advantage over those that didnt.

what behavior are you talking about anyway?

they dont know right from wrong, no intellect whatso ever.

without intellect how can one have free will?

they act on base insticts, yes we see the occasional elephant mother defending its young and birds defending their eggs but again this is paternal instinct. No animals have free will, they act on base insticts, but where do these instincts come from...

**ranma1/2** · 07-04-2007

Originally Posted by nebula

do u know evolution is completely false?

The design of the alveoli in our lungs is at a perfect state IF it was any different
from what it is now then we would not be able to breath at all. Therefore the alveoli cannot evolve due to evolution. It was made once and it hasn't changed.

He didn't have anything to say to my post aye?

Evidence?
As for our alveoli, they have evolved as they have evolved. IT sounds as if you are going after behes irriducibly complex idea. We call the organs that primarily exchange air to blood in the majoritiy of mammals alveoli. There are similar but different structures in other creatures. So that argument if refuted. Not to mention the disease associtated with these structures seem to mean these structures are not perfect.

Now whats with the hostility im getting from you, the thread poster and PA?

**ranma1/2** · 07-05-2007

Originally Posted by Woodrow

If we are to look at life as a continuous process of advancing towards a perfect life form. Than life on earth has gone in the wrong direction. For simple existance and the certainty of the spread of gametes, the amoeba is probably the ideal life form. It is virtually indestructible, Perfectly adapted for life in nearly every climate condition, able to remain dormant for an indefinite period of time if climate changes require. Is asexual for reproduction and has no need to seek out others of it's kind.

When thinking in terms of life and only life, everything beyond the amoeba is a reduction in certainty for preservation of the species.

They was no need for life to advance beyond unicellular level. Must be some pupose in us other than mere preservation and distribution of gametes.

Evolution is not goal oriented so its not heading toward a "perfect" form. But it allows for "improvement" through mutation and weeding out those less fit through selection.

Asexual reproduction for instance has a main drawback in that you can not easily adapt, all mutations must come from your line. Were as if you sexually reproduce you can then have multiple sources of dna that can have all types of mutations that allow for greater selection and adapatation.

And there is no need for life. However ignoring that, through the process of evo, those forms that can reproduce quicker will more likely dominate a gene pool. So need in not needed. Just a process.

**ranma1/2** · 07-05-2007

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

they dont know right from wrong, no intellect whatso ever.

without intellect how can one have free will?

they act on base insticts, yes we see the occasional elephant mother defending its young and birds defending their eggs but again this is paternal instinct. No animals have free will, they act on base insticts, but where do these instincts come from...

Can you clarify what you mean by intellect or intelligence?
Some animals have been shown to posses intellect "intelligence". This varies to one degree or another but it is defintily shown. How does intellect effect free will? And to what degree of intelligence must you have inorder to have your version of free will? And what does knowing right and wrong have to do with free will? How can you show me you have free will?
And please give a better description of free will. To me its the ability to choose and to choose differently. If there is a all knowing being then you do not have the ability to choose differently since everything is then predetermined. You can not choose differerntly.

**ranma1/2** · 07-05-2007

back ot the thread topic,

If as woodrow said everything is perfectly designed then why are the majority of species that have lived on this planet extinct?

**nebula** · 07-05-2007

ranma you make absolutley no sense you know that?

your just here to argue you completely disagree with anything that is said to you? what is the point of you being here?

**Keltoi** · 07-05-2007

Speaking strictly about animals, you see these different kinds of "camo" all across the natural world. White rabbits in snowy country, green snakes in the jungle, etc. They obviously have an advantage over those creatures that do not have this "camo". Does this mean those without "camo" are inferior? Were they a less "perfect" creation? I think there is enough evidence out there to suggest animals do indeed flourish or diminish because of natural selection. Personally, I don't see why natural selection, either pro or con, should determine whether or not there is a divine root to all creation.

**AB517** · 07-05-2007

Originally Posted by nebula

hey athiest

do u know evolution is completely false?

The design of the alveoli in our lungs is at a perfect state IF it was any different
from what it is now then we would not be able to breath at all. Therefore the alveoli cannot evolve due to evolution. It was made once and it hasn't changed.

please get your facts right

well ... this is not true.

Incomplete ... yes. False ..not hardly.

I believe God created the universe and evolution is clearly one of his many wonderous methods. Not the only one to be sure.

what are you afraid of?

Love that first post tho ... my bread and butter argument is that one you used ... how do animal "JUST KNOW" to do this or that.

Great post.

**snakelegs** · 07-05-2007

well, i'm agnostic and not atheist. for the greatest part of my life i never concerned myself with whether or god existed or not, though i have never been an atheist.
a couple of decades ago i began to study nature and the more i learned the more i have come to believe there is indeed a god. it is largely due to these discoveries and the awe i felt each time i learned something new.
the insect you have shown is just one of the many things that have led me to this conclusion. there is also a form of mimicry where animals look just like a venemous species in the same area. it is truly incredible and very humbling when you study stuff like habitat niches. almost every new thing i learn - it is all so awesome.
when you look at life in the desert - it is so fragile and at the same time so tough to survive those conditions...there are seeds that lay beneath the surface waiting, sometimes for years, for just the right conditions to sprout.