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Islam and Apostasy

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    Re: apostates (OP)


    EDIT: This post has been moved to the beginning of the thread.


    In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:
    1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

    2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
    10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?


    Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

    47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

    51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

    29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.


    Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

    2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

    3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

    4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
    So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

    From another of my posts:
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    format_quote Originally Posted by blunderbus View Post
    If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?
    As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

    First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

    If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.


    _______

    Material from this post has been added to this article:
    http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    Thanks..though I did prefer my old one but I had no choice in the matter. I was told, ever human image was to be removed.
    Peace
    Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder?
    Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours???

    Blessings,
    Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Islam and Apostasy

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Hello Nicola,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    I understand what your saying and I agree totaly...
    And yet you are not anymore knowledgeable on the laws!
    what better way to get someone out of the way you don't like them, than to spread lies they have insulted the prophet of the koran.
    Perjury is punished severely in Islam. And Islam guarantees a trial to examine all the evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh forbade punishments when there is any doubt concerning the guilt of the accused, so who on earth can someone fabricate this lie that false testimonies are enough to get someone punished in Islamic law.
    It's really is so easy to abuse this law.
    No it is not if you study the law. But yeah, someone who is completely ignorant of the laws may indeed think they are easy to abuse.
    I've wondered how this law came about.
    The cure for ignorance is learning. Please read my first post where I have explained the historical context.
    Yet allah in the koran now gives permission to kill people who insult their book or prophet.
    BLATANT LIE. Provide me the quotation from the Qur'an that says this. If you cannot then I hope you will have the decency to apologize for this lie against Islam.

    when they can't possibly know whats in a persons heart for sure.
    No one is ever punished in Islam for a matter that involves their personal commitment to God. The punishments are for the protection of society and against the harm someone has caused to society.
    It must have been really lonely for him.
    It's alright for you to hypothesize about his case, but the truth is you don't know what he was like at all.
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder?
    Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours???

    Blessings,
    Because it is strictly forbidden to depict any picture of a human being, specially of the beautiful Prophets of God under Islamic Shari'a
    Islam and Apostasy

    The people who cry about freedom are slaves to their own desires. I am a slave of my Exalted and Merciful Rabb, Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Alhamdulillah

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder?
    Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours???

    Blessings,
    We are implenting this rule for everyone, so yes others are being required to remove pictures of people. Nicola's avatar was a depiction of Prophet Jesus.
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by cool_jannah View Post
    Because it is strictly forbidden to depict any picture of a human being, specially of the beautiful Prophets of God under Islamic Shari'a
    So I understand.
    But if Nicola's avatar has to go, what about all the others??

    Are body parts okay (see the hand on my avatar)
    And is there just the faintest hint of a person in the background??!

    Moderators, just inform me of your verdict.

    Blessings,
    Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Islam and Apostasy

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


  9. #126
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    We are implenting this rule for everyone, so yes others are being required to remove pictures of people. Nicola's avatar was a depiction of Prophet Jesus.

    How do you know it was Jesus????
    He looked like a guy with a sense of hunour to me!
    Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Islam and Apostasy

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


  10. #127
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Hello Snakelegs,

    This is utter nonsense. I am appaled that you would just fabricate such an idea - no one is allowed to be punished in Islamic law on flimsy evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself said that the punishment is to be abandoned in the presence of ANY doubt. So the notion that you can just bribe a few people to testify against someone is a malicious lie in Islam. Islam guarantees everyone a trial where the evidence against them is examined. If you say that you didn't insult the Qur'an or the Prophet, then unless they have concrete and indisputable evidence to prove otherwise then they can't punish you on the basis of someone's testimony. And the punishment against perjury in Islam is a severe enough deterrent to stop anyone from giving false testimony.

    I really suggest that you try to learn what Islamic law actually states rather than advancing this ridiculous conjecture that we can kill anyone by just getting a few people to testify against them.
    i am only repeating what i've read in the pakistani english press, as well as what i've been told by pakistanis. to me, if you think about it, it just makes sense. you may well be right about islamic law - i am just talking about what sometimes actually happens - in this case it would be a wrong implementation of the shariah.
    actually, no one has been put to death for blasphemy in pakistan (though it is legally possible), but many rot in jails.
    in the u.s. for example, the constitution is not always followed, in which case one can appeal to the supreme court. the soviet union had a lovely constitution, but it was not followed in practice.
    Islam and Apostasy

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority
    image06 1 - Islam and Apostasy

  11. #128
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    [QUOTE=Ansar Al-'Adl;284083]Hello Nicola,

    And yet you are not anymore knowledgeable on the laws!
    Did I say I was?


    Perjury is punished severely in Islam. And Islam guarantees a trial to examine all the evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh forbade punishments when there is any doubt concerning the guilt of the accused, so who on earth can someone fabricate this lie that false testimonies are enough to get someone punished in Islamic law.
    But there are different kinds of perjury aren't there...e.g some lies don't count?


    No it is not if you study the law. But yeah, someone who is completely ignorant of the laws may indeed think they are easy to abuse.
    So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
    If only life was that simple!





    BLATANT LIE. Provide me the quotation from the Qur'an that says this. If you cannot then I hope you will have the decency to apologize for this lie against Islam.
    I believed after seeing so many death threats to westerners because of those cartoons..this was an Islamic law because of the insults to Islam and Mohammed..also Salman Rushdie what did he do wrong according to Islamic law..it must have been something serious to be issued a death sentance, they must have been acting on some form of Islamic law for them to have issued one.. What in the koran gives them this right...I would like to know?

    Or are these death sentances (fatwas)that some Muslims have issued to certain people, taken on their own backs with no Islamic ruling..and nothing at all, to do with isulting Islam or Mohammed?

    If you could explain please.

    No one is ever punished in Islam for a matter that involves their personal commitment to God. The punishments are for the protection of society and against the harm someone has caused to society.
    Thats Islamic law...I'm talking about what happens in real life. Would be great if all people obeyed the laws of the land...etc..but people don't and never will
    because they are sinful.


    It's alright for you to hypothesize about his case, but the truth is you don't know what he was like at all.
    From what I've read about the case I formed an opinion of what life would have been like for him living there and not being a Muslim but a secret born again Christian.
    I do write with perscuted Christians in this world so I do know how they suffer for accepting Jesus has their saviour. Most people form opinions, it's natural. And it was only my opinion that it must have been lonely for him..I didn't say It was lonely for him because I don't know him personally...other people of this forums opinion have been saying he should be killed. Though I believe that is cruel but that is their opinion and they are entitled to it.



    This applies to everything in life if your not there yourself..you don't know for sure what is true or not.
    Last edited by Nicola; 04-30-2006 at 12:55 AM.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Ohh ... will I get away with mine, I wonder?

    I don't know if you will it is a human hand isn't it?...lol



    Mind you, there are loads of avatars depicting people around in this forum. Why yours??? Blessings,
    I know, even human photos of people which aren't allowed either as I understand the law so far.

    God Bless

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Hello Snakelegs,
    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    i am only repeating what i've read in the pakistani english press, as well as what i've been told by pakistanis.
    So your comments were based on hearsay and impressions conveyed by the media on what occurs in Muslim countries, not an objective study of Shari'ah law. When are we going to realize that the biggest obstacle to understanding others is to judge their way of life on the basis of the selective presentation in the media? Non-muslims need to take an objective learning approach to Islam and search for answers rather than advancing their conjecture on what may or may not occur with Islamic law.
    in the u.s. for example, the constitution is not always followed, in which case one can appeal to the supreme court. the soviet union had a lovely constitution, but it was not followed in practice.
    But not following the law is not the same as abusing the law. You said that the laws may easily be abused which is not true. If you mean that they may easily be abandoned, I would agree because it is easy to abandon any law.

    Regards
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  15. #131
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    Did I say I was?
    I said that because both her comment and your confirmation of it were not based on knowledge of the issue.
    But there are different kinds of perjury aren't there
    No, all perjury is perjury and it is a terrible crime. False testimony is completely prohibited in Islam.
    So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
    They have violated the laws and abandoned them, but that is not the same as abusing them.
    I believed after seeing so many death threats to westerners because of those cartoons..this was an Islamic law because of the insults to Islam and Mohammed
    So your comments were also not based on truth but on conjecture and misguided assumptions about Islam's teachings. Why don't you stop assuming negative things about Islam and try to learn about its teachings instead?
    ..also Salman Rushdie what did he do wrong according to Islamic law..it must have been something serious to be issued a death sentance, they must have been acting on some form of Islamic law for them to have issued one
    It is a fallacy to think that everything a Muslim does must be in accordance with Islam. A fatwa is a religious ruling and there are some who are not scholars and do not have proper knowledge yet still give their own fatawa. It doesn't mean that their fatwa must be reflective of what Islam teaches.
    Or are these death sentances (fatwas)
    A fatwa is a religious ruling to be issued by a scholar, not a death sentence!!

    Regards
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  16. #132
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Ansar Al-'Adl, I for one want to offer you my thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions that you do. I am sure it takes a lot of time and it is mostly a thankless job.
    I suspect at times it seems the whole western world is against you.

    Your last post looked like you are starting to take some of the replies personally.

    You ARE doing a great job. Don't let anything get under your skin.

    Where the problem lies, I suspect, is that your replies seem to answer the questions in light of Islam, as it should be.
    Islam, as it IS, is an entirely different matter.

    If things were as they should be, the Middle East would be leading the way in reforming Muslim countries, instead about all the western world sees is a general condemnation of any attempt to rein in some of the excess' we see in the Muslim world (The current condemnation of the Western reform attempts in Afghanistan by many on this web-site are an example of what I am talking about).

    At times it can be frustrating from both sides of the fence, if you know what I mean.

    Nicola's posts are from a "real" world prospective. Your answers are from an "Ideal" world prospective.

    That is why my last post to you was as it was.

    We live in a world where there isn’t a single "true" Islamic state that exists. Is it still fair to execute people because they later decide they agree more with the Bible than they do Islam, in light of the world we live in today?

    There is no way anyone can say that Afghanistan (under the Taliban rule) allowed things to exist so that a person had a fair chance at making an informed decision as to the choice of religious beliefs.

    Ansar, I hope you understand why this issue generates so much passion. It is the life or death issue. It is not merely academic, like debating if a certain verse in the Bible has suffered rewriting or not.

    In the real world this is what the Western world sees (At least in my small part of it):

    Muslims are easily riled, they become violent when they get riled, they do a very poor job of policing their ranks, and they want to kill folks who get tired of it, even their own.

    Ansar, I don’t intend for that last part to be insulting toward anyone, I am just trying to be plain spoken.

    The bottom line for me is this, even if a person believes that converting away from Islam deserves the death penalty, before ANY state can assume the right to put the person to death, then the State must have clean hands.

    Saudi Arabia has strayed so far from what Islam teaches that the leaders of that country have, for all intents and purposes, converted away from Islam and toward their own perverted system. So much so that the Islamic world declares that Saudi Arabia is a very, very, poor example of Islam (I have seen Saudi Arabia declared as such on this very web-site).

    If any State is going to start executing folks for converting away from Islam then, by all means, address those who have converted/perverted Islam into what it is not as well.

    There is a verse in the Bible, “Don’t condemn your fellow man for the speck of saw dust in his eye, when you have a plank stuck in your own eye” (my phrasing is slightly different than the true scripture, but I haven’t changed the meaning of the verse), that is sort of how the rest of the world sees Islam at the moment.

    Ansar Al-‘Adl, I hope you will accept this post in the same light it is given in, I mean no insult or harm. I just felt there were some things that needed to be said in a plain spoken manner. After all we are talking about a life or death ruling here, such matters are more than just letters on a computer screen.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

  17. #133
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Hello Snakelegs,

    So your comments were based on hearsay and impressions conveyed by the media on what occurs in Muslim countries, not an objective study of Shari'ah law. When are we going to realize that the biggest obstacle to understanding others is to judge their way of life on the basis of the selective presentation in the media? Non-muslims need to take an objective learning approach to Islam and search for answers rather than advancing their conjecture on what may or may not occur with Islamic law.

    But not following the law is not the same as abusing the law. You said that the laws may easily be abused which is not true. If you mean that they may easily be abandoned, I would agree because it is easy to abandon any law.

    Regards
    i readily admit i am ignorant about shariah. my point was not about the shariah but about how these laws get implemented in the real world.
    even many muslims allow that there are no muslim countries that are following shariah completely. i am definitely not qualified to judge shariah.
    yes, my opinions are based on what i read as well as what i've been told by many pakistanis - and i'm thinking about pakistan because it is the only country that i have a little knowledge of.
    is the pakistani english press presenting a biased view of pakistan?
    i'm not sure if i understand your point about preferring the term "abadoned" instead of "abused".
    i get the impression that you use the word "hearsay" to discount any opinion expressed by either muslims or non-muslim that doesn't conform to your views.
    Islam and Apostasy

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    Syed Nizam's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    From what I understood from the coverage I read, he kept it to himself but his family found out and reported him to officals.


    Either way, living that kind of pretence life must have been hard for him. He would never have been safe or free living there. I'm just pleased he is now away from it all and able to enjoy the life God called him out for.

    So Muslims can change from Islam so long has they don't evangelize? Is that even in an Islamic country?

    I have read different on this forum.
    Nicola,

    I would reserved my judgement on what actually transpired and what actually have been reported by the western media. Opps, especially the western media when it comes to reporting on Islam. If you are not aware of that, let's me just say that as a muslim, i see that there are numerous occasion where Islam is being maligned or misreported by the western media.

    But. personally, if this man really keep it to himself, than i'm just glad as well that he have got away to another place where he can practise his belief freely.

    But, on that matters, I leave it to Allah to decide....

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    Noora_z3's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Salam

    Bro Ansar, u r doing a very good job here, Masha Allah, May Allah protect you.

    I personally think all muslims at this point must understand this issue as best as possibal, it will be brought up again n again by so called "modern muslims" n non-muslims, n if we dont know our own religion then who would?! Allah wont send his angels to defend us.

    Wassalam
    Islam and Apostasy

    A Muslim Paradise is not a place of arrival, but a way of Travellin

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    Nicola's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam View Post
    Nicola,

    I would reserved my judgement on what actually transpired and what actually have been reported by the western media. Opps, especially the western media when it comes to reporting on Islam. If you are not aware of that, let's me just say that as a muslim, i see that there are numerous occasion where Islam is being maligned or misreported by the western media.
    That could be said for the people who sit in Judgment of this man also and judge the man should be murdered. It should work both ways IMO.


    But. personally, if this man really keep it to himself, than i'm just glad as well that he have got away to another place where he can practise his belief freely.
    Yes so am I.

    But, on that matters, I leave it to Allah to decide....
    and so it should be...but some men take it on themselve to act on Gods behalf...Yes, I agree we should leave it for God to decide on judgement day, after all it is God who gives us the freewill to choose which path to follow in this life not man.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
    If only life was that simple!
    Honestly, the same can be applied towards any other religion as well. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduisms...etc. I cant see ur logic of applying it only towards the muslim? This is prejudice, ain't it?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
    I believed after seeing so many death threats to westerners because of those cartoons..this was an Islamic law because of the insults to Islam and Mohammed..also Salman Rushdie what did he do wrong according to Islamic law..it must have been something serious to be issued a death sentance, they must have been acting on some form of Islamic law for them to have issued one.. What in the koran gives them this right...I would like to know?
    The mass simply reacted that way due to their reverence to the Prophet (pbuh). Most muslims do revered the Prophet (pbuh) more than their own lives. So, their reaction towards such a blasphemy is very well expected. To holds a rally or a mass protest is nothing wrong. But, again and again, in any mass protest things can turns out really bad. About that death threats, again, what do u means by many? About Salman Rushdie, that guy is really a nut case. I have read his book the Satanic Verses and i'm amused at his level of intellect in it.... That book contains nothing but recycled garbage..., of those people who chooses to slanders islam, the religion & the Prophet (pbuh).

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    =Syed Nizam;284514]Honestly, the same can be applied towards any other religion as well. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduisms...etc. I cant see ur logic of applying it only towards the muslim? This is prejudice, ain't it?
    Of course this applies to all religionsNo religious laws are practiced perfect by anyone..thats what I am meaning...When someone tells me that Islamic laws cannot be abused...Like I said in my earlier post...if only life was that simple! All reglious laws are abused at sometime or another...Ever single religion! Is open to abuse.

    No it is not if you study the law. But yeah, someone who is completely ignorant of the laws may indeed think they are easy to abuse.




    This is what I was told in the above quote...We weren't actually talking about other religions but Apostasy in Islam concering Islamic law.

    But if you want to go ahead..nothing is stopping you discussing other religions..If we start debating other religions and their problems within this thread I would agree with you totally that all have people who abuse their religious laws.....I'm not the one denying it!... but it would bring this thread off topic again and then it would need to be brought back on topic..or probably need to be split.
    So no Muslim person who has ever lived, have never abused Islamic law ever?
    If only life was that simple!


    I already know the law of God in the Bible is abused...I can see problems in my choosen religion..Though I don't live with rose tinted glasses on.





    The mass simply reacted that way due to their reverence to the Prophet (pbuh). Most muslims do revered the Prophet (pbuh) more than their own lives. So, their reaction towards such a blasphemy is very well expected.
    IMO this looks like a kind of idolation in it's self.

    To holds a rally or a mass protest is nothing wrong. But, again and again, in any mass protest things can turns out really bad. About that death threats, again, what do u means by many? About Salman Rushdie, that guy is really a nut case. I have read his book the Satanic Verses and i'm amused at his level of intellect in it.... That book contains nothing but recycled garbage..., of those people who chooses to slanders islam, the religion & the Prophet (pbuh).
    I have no problems with peacful mass protests at all, I agree with freedom of speach for all people in every country..But I do have an issue when some Muslims where calling for death to us westerners..when it was only one mans decision to publish some cartoons. Salman Rushdie deserving a death sentence over his head for something that he writes in a book...I find it a strange kind of ideology.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Noora_z3 View Post
    Salam

    Bro Ansar, u r doing a very good job here, Masha Allah, May Allah protect you.

    I personally think all muslims at this point must understand this issue as best as possibal, it will be brought up again n again by so called "modern muslims" n non-muslims, n if we dont know our own religion then who would?! Allah wont send his angels to defend us.

    Wassalam
    Sis Noora,

    Correct me if i'm wrong. I taught that there is no such terms such as "modern muslim" or "conservative muslim". There are but only one muslim.. & that means the submission to Allah. We might not shared the same view on some issues but i'm certained that our beliefs & our convictions nevertheless are just the same.

    May Allah blessed us in this life & the hereafter. Ameeen.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Hello Nimrod
    format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod View Post
    Your last post looked like you are starting to take some of the replies personally.

    You ARE doing a great job. Don't let anything get under your skin.
    Thanks for your kind comments and your advice.
    Where the problem lies, I suspect, is that your replies seem to answer the questions in light of Islam, as it should be [practiced].
    Islam, as it IS [practiced], is an entirely different matter.
    If you add the word practiced as I did above, then I agree with the statement. The difference being that there are not multiple Islams, Islam is just what is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

    At times it can be frustrating from both sides of the fence, if you know what I mean.
    Absolutely.
    We live in a world where there isn’t a single "true" Islamic state that exists. Is it still fair to execute people because they later decide they agree more with the Bible than they do Islam, in light of the world we live in today?

    There is no way anyone can say that Afghanistan (under the Taliban rule) allowed things to exist so that a person had a fair chance at making an informed decision as to the choice of religious beliefs.
    I agree that rulings must be considered in light of contemporary events and the world situation, as the Prophet himself demonstrated. There is a need for a lot of reform in the Muslim world (not Islam) and this gets into discussions on ways to reform the Ummah.
    In the real world this is what the Western world sees (At least in my small part of it):

    Muslims are easily riled, they become violent when they get riled, they do a very poor job of policing their ranks, and they want to kill folks who get tired of it, even their own.
    I'm aware of the prevalent stereotypes and I think it results largely from the spotlight fallacy. I think we need to combat these stereotypes and help westerners understand that the problem is with some Muslims, not with Islam, and then we can all take steps towards eradicating the problems in the Muslim world.

    If any State is going to start executing folks for converting away from Islam then, by all means, address those who have converted/perverted Islam into what it is not as well.

    There is a verse in the Bible, “Don’t condemn your fellow man for the speck of saw dust in his eye, when you have a plank stuck in your own eye
    Agreed.

    Once again, thanks for your post.

    Regards
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.


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