ربكم الله الذي خلق السماوات والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي الليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرات بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العالمين
Translation
Your lord is allah, who, in six days created the heavens and the earth, and then willed to the throne. he throws the veil of night over the day. swiftly they follow one another. the sun, the moon, and the stars are compelled to his order. his is the creation, his is the command. blessed is allah, the lord of the worlds.
This verse says that the heavens and the earth (Universe) was created in Six days. It seems that this verse contradicts with modern Science and Big Bang theory
I hope your original reply wasn't for the quote I linked?.. I don't think any thread can withstand anymore of your tortured metaphors.
Maybe an unnamed scientist on google can pick up where your shortcomings have left off..
btw. Does anyone see us gaining anything tangible from this thread (other than smirking and mocking from our resident kuffaar)?
Nope. I'm used to it, and I see it as a waste of time for everyone. It's Ramadan, threads that just turn into quarrels should be closed for our sake. And May Allah guide those of the misguided, ameen.
You have something to say to trumble I suggest you quote him directly or by way of PM, there is no good reason that I can fathom for you to quote me in the process!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
btw. Does anyone see us gaining anything tangible from this thread (other than smirking and mocking from our resident kuffaar)?
They can smirk and mock all the want.. I don't personally understand why they obsess with a religion they don't subscribe to or a God they don't believe in, or a doctrine to which they all pretend to be the awaited exegete, as if none of us have ever read the Quran before least of which in the mother tongue!
every town has its crier.. but I think even criers take a holiday--no?!
either way I wouldn't worry about what they think or believe.. some guests like to incommode their hosts.. you just have to shrug your shoulder, smile and move on...
Last edited by جوري; 09-23-2007 at 04:30 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
As far as I know, the world translated here as days can also mean an unspecified time period... or something like that?
this always gets me.
read the book literally "except when you cant"
lets say that days mean roughly a 24 hour time period.
Why would god use something so vague? if it didnt mean roughly a 24 hour period.
it seems to be VERY misleading.
For the mutjahids it was perfectly clear. Hence why, we should not derive meanings from the Quran in this time - as we do not have the capacity nor ability. Does this mean we are ****ed without knowing? Not at all, people of very long time ago kept tafsirs of everything. If anyone bothered to check em up instead of finding a translation randomly off Quran and playing as a Mutjahid with itjihaad - well ....
Fight in the way of God, against those who fight against you, drive them out of the places they have drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. Fight them, until persecution is no more, and Religion is for God. But if they stop, let there be no war.
I hope your original reply wasn't for the quote I linked?.. I don't think any thread can withstand anymore of your tortured metaphors.
Of course it was in response to that quote - I quoted it (including the missing equations). I didn't use any metaphors, tortured or otherwise.
Perhaps you might care to comment on what I actually posted, which was a look at the mathematics used to support a particular claim and was completely devoid of any 'smirking' or 'mockery' as far as I can see. You could always 'incommode' me in return by refuting the refutation? You are a scientist, after all. I'd hurry up, seems folks are in a hurry to get the thread closed.
Let's try another quote in relation to this forum as a whole; a little philosophy this time.
Let us now pass to the second division of the argument, and dismissing the Supposition that any of the received opinions may be false, let us assume them to be true, and examine into the worth of the manner in which they are likely to be held, when their truth is not freely and openly canvassed. However unwillingly a person who has a strong opinion may admit the possibility that his opinion may be false, he ought to be moved by the consideration that however true it may be, if it is not fully, frequently, and fearlessly discussed, it will be held as a dead dogma, not a living truth.
There is a class of persons (happily not quite so numerous as formerly) who think it enough if a person assents undoubtingly to what they think true, though he has no knowledge whatever of the grounds of the opinion, and could not make a tenable defence of it against the most superficial objections. Such persons, if they can once get their creed taught from authority, naturally think that no good, and some harm, comes of its being allowed to be questioned. Where their influence prevails, they make it nearly impossible for the received opinion to be rejected wisely and considerately, though it may still be rejected rashly and ignorantly; for to shut out discussion entirely is seldom possible, and when it once gets in, beliefs not grounded on conviction are apt to give way before the slightest semblance of an argument. Waiving, however, this possibility — assuming that the true opinion abides in the mind, but abides as a prejudice, a belief independent of, and proof against, argument — this is not the way in which truth ought to be held by a rational being. This is not knowing the truth. Truth, thus held, is but one superstition the more, accidentally clinging to the words which enunciate a truth.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
This whole speed of light thing is pretty dodgy... firstly they seem to have misunderstood the verse. They are somehow trying to imply that it takes the angels one day to reach their Lord by our time, but it actually takes them 50,000 years to make the trip.
I could be wrong, but this seems to be a totally incorrect understand of the verse. According to tafsir Ibn kathir, the verse is talking about the Day of Judgement:
(in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.) This refers to the Day of Judgement. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded from Ibn `Abbas that he said concerning the Ayah,
(in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.) "It is the Day of Judgement.'' The chain of narration of this report (to Ibn `Abbas) is authentic. Ath-Thawri reported from Simak bin Harb from `Ikrimah that he said concerning this verse, "It is the Day of Judgement.'' Ad-Dahhak and Ibn Zayd both said the same. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported from Ibn `Abbas concerning the Ayah,
(The angels and the Ruh ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.) "It is the Day of Judgement that Allah has made to be the measure of fifty thousand years for the disbelievers. ''
I'm sorry but this article is very, very odd. first off all, it says that the preserved tablet is in outer space, next to earth. That is not correct, as far as I know, the tablet in somewhere in the heavens nearer to Allah. Can someone please correct me if I am mistaken here.
Also if we assume that angels can only travel less than the speed of light, then that means Jibreel had to travel from being in the presence of Allah (not even in this universe any more, somewhere closer up the seventh heaven), straight to earth and come to the presence of Muhammad Rassullah pbuh. That is impossible!!!!! He COULD never have completed that journey at the speed of light! Just the light from the outer edges of the universe, which is already travelling at the speed of light (duh) hasn't even reached us yet, and its been billions of years, so how is Jibreel meant to travel the distance off the seven heavens, including this universe, many many times, back and forth, in only 20 years, at just less than the speed of light?! (keeping in mind that the universe is tiny compared to the seven heavens!)
It is the angels who carryout this 'cosmic affair'. Hence in 1 day, the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Obviously they counted lunar years (see Arabic wording at footnote [1]). So Allah is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 lunar orbits (1000 years x 12 orbits/year).
Actually Allah did not say that in the verse at all. The moon is not even mentioned in the verse!!! Only time is mentioned, not distance!
God's Throne has higher mass than Earth. The Quran says that God's Throne is even wider than the whole universe; so how about the mass of God's Throne? God's Throne is much more massive than Earth. Time should pass there much slower than on Earth. The theory of general relativity explains why time passes slower at God's Throne than on Earth. General relativity explains why 6 days passed at God's Throne but we measured it as 13.5 billion years (that is each day at God's Throne measures around 2.25 billion years on Earth).
Okay... now this is weird, for a number of reasons:
1. They are implying that the heaven and the earth were somehow created in the vicinity of the throne of Allah. Is there even any proof for that?
2. Is this trying to imply that Allah Himself felt time going slower because He was next to His throne?! I really hope not. Time is a creation of Allah and Allah is not bound by it at all.
3. We do not know that the throne of Allah has mass or whether it is bound by the same laws of science as we experience on earth.
[Quran 15.13-16] They do not believe the Message, like those who preceded them; 14 Even if We [Allah] opened upon them from the heaven a door and they continued walking through it 15 they would say ‘Our sight is bedazzled, rather we have been bewitched’ 16 It is We [Allah] who have made towering structures in the heavens and made them beautiful for beholders. 17 And We protected them from every evil spirit accursed.
Here, they wouldn’t believe their own eyes thinking that what they see is not real. They wouldn’t believe that they got to those heavenly structures by simply walking few steps. But God insists that what they see is real and not illusions (that is, they really got there).
The Quran says that those heavenly doors are galactic shortcuts to distant places in the universe. Angels guard those heavenly doors 'from every evil spirit accursed'. Moslems believe that angels use these doors for long distance travel. Angels can accelerate up to the speed of light for domestic travel; but they use these wormholes to reach any place in the universe before you finish reading this sentence.
Honestly now, HOW did they exaggerate that out of a simple verse?!
Science says that the universe was created in a Big Bang 13.5 billion years ago, is still expanding today, and billions of years from now it will collapse by it's own gravity with a Big Crunch.
No they do NOT say this at all. Rather they say that the big crunch is one of three different possibilities.
I hate to say this, but many points in this article extremely exaggerated, they are interpreting verses of the Quran in ways they have no right to interpret. Many points made a reasonable, such as the ratio of the age of the earth to the heavens (actually, the length of time it took to create them), the bug bang, but as for all the calculations and relativity related things, I seriously question the validity of that.
Anyway, I think we are getting a bit off-topic here don't you think?
No need to ask it. There is just nothing there that suggests "Time Dilation and the core of Relativity" at all, beyond the tenuous (and obviously poetic) suggestion to the effect that one 'day' for God is 50,000 years for humans - making no mention of motion anywhere. Which could just as well be 20,000 or 100,000 years and make no difference in the math presented.
Exactly. For once I have to agree with you- the verse does not imply what the article would like us to think it does.
The verse they used to calculate the time speed the second time was completely misinterpreted in order to come up with that cacluation.
It does not mean that the angels experience a day while we measure it as 50,000 years. It means that the angels are coming to Allah on a day that is 50,000 years long, and that day is the day of Judgement according to the tafsir of Ibn kathir.
either way I wouldn't worry about what they think or believe.. some guests like to incommode their hosts.. you just have to shrug your shoulder, smile and move on...
I have the greatest respect for faith based beliefs and even arguments with faith based premises, provided nobody pretends they are anything else. My own religion is no different from the monotheistic ones in that respect.
However, if you choose to defend particular beliefs by ignoring faith based arguments in favour of claimed mathematical and scientific ones, you should be prepared for them to be criticised, and be prepared to defend them. It is no different from any other use of science and math; if, say, Hawking, published a cosmological paper he would lose all credibility overnight if his response to critical peer review was "you just have to shrug your shoulder, smile and move on...". If you think there is some 'get-out from criticism clause' when using math and science in a theological context, then you need to justify that. I think that there is, actually... it's called 'faith'.
For the record the first one is actually deeply flawed too. Life is too short to explain why in view of the response I'm likely to get, but you might wish to examine the adjustment introduced to supposedly compare like velocity with like. Does it? And is it needed at all? Other than to generate the desired answer, that is.
I have lost respect for you some time back... I was merely pointing that it is a waste of your time and mine to have this sort of correspondence back and forth.
I have seen how you make your arguments.. and we have already established, actually out of your own admittance that you are neither a scientist nor a textual/exegetical expert and you don't speak any semitic languages! I wasn't 'defending' anything to you anymore than looking for a critical view of what I have posted, least of which by your person!
If I wanted an opinion, I assure you, it wouldnt be yours that I waste my time on...
Have a great day
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
^^ be careful what you say to him, as I know from experience that arguing with this fellow is like a boxing match with one's hand tied and blind folded.
If I were to post any article, be it mine or from most eminent of Muslims, and this fellow was to allege error/discrepensy/contradiction or mistake, Muhammad (the admin fellow) would zap it without asking or giving explanation (unless of course one copy pastes from a fatwa shop)
Akhi.. I simply don't care.. I promise you by all that I hold dear, I have stopped reading some time back.. I just wanted him to stop wasting his time, that he uses to quote me or expend time probing the web for one of his famous cyber rebuttals to an article I have posted.. as I can't think of something worst than time spent in an idle manner.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I have seen how you make your arguments.. and we have already established, actually out of your own admittance that you are neither a scientist nor a textual/exegetical expert and you don't speak any semitic languages!
Neither is necessary for a straightforward examination of a fairly simple piece of mathematics. Neither is a cyber search (that was a rather curious comment from someone who cut n' pasted the whole article in the first place, I thought). As you are obviously capable of understanding both the math and my comments on it, I have drawn the obvious conclusion as to why you have have not provided a response. :sunny:
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
^^ be careful what you say to him, as I know from experience that arguing with this fellow is like a boxing match with one's hand tied and blind folded.
If I were to post any article, be it mine or from most eminent of Muslims, and this fellow was to allege error/discrepensy/contradiction or mistake, Muhammad (the admin fellow) would zap it without asking or giving explanation (unless of course one copy pastes from a fatwa shop)
She isn't 'arguing', she's waffling.
The incident about which you seem to have a never-ending chip on your shoulder was in regard to something posted regarding my religion the equivalent of which you would find totally acceptable had it been posted in relation to yours. However 'eminent' the original source may be in the eyes of those who agree with him. It seems to be a level playing field you are objecting to?
^^ also I and a friend think these type of threads are idiotic and should be allowd to die
It is a recreational area, for some to foster self-esteem amongst other issues. The forum acts as a surrogate to nurture habits and traits, they are unable to otherwise accomplish in their every day life....clear cut DSM-IV cluster B..
Again, I wouldn't occupy myself with those too much...
1st ten of Ramadan are Mercy (ra7ma)
2nd ten of Ramadan are for forgiveness (maghfira)
last ten to be granted pardon from al7afera.. I'd focus my attention on that and try to acquire and learn all I can in the holy month--and not worry about fruitless debates.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
I'm used to it, and I see it as a waste of time for everyone. It's Ramadan, threads that just turn into quarrels should be closed for our sake. And May Allah guide those of the misguided, ameen. 
The moon is not even mentioned in the verse!!! Only time is mentioned, not distance!
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks