I have been answering many non-muslims and have been clearing doughts about Islam but now i am stuck at one question...For that i need an answer..
Please do respond to it and be a little quick,,,
Here is what the Non-Muslim asked me :
The main points i've been making of Koran's inaccuracies can be argued and analyzed variously, so I'll not be required to have an in depth knowledge of it.One of them is all about what is stated in the Bible, more precisely the trinity. The koran had erroneously included Mary as a member of the trinity (father/Jesus and Mary as if Christians worshipped a plurality of gods...) (Sura 5.116).Does it correspond to reality?
Here is what Quran says in 5.116 :
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
I also own a Blog : Discovering Islam
I have been able to answer all the questions...
This is one of the few moments when i have got stuck...
venerating exalting, considering hallowed as with this prayer below, is to take another for a God other than Allah swt. That isn't monotheism and we don't have that in Islam.. it is called shirk!peace!
i don't see why it's any different than this prayer: "O Allah, we used to beseech You by means of (the du'a of) Your Prophet for rain and You would give us rain; now we beseech You by means of (the du'a of) the paternal uncle of Your Prophet, so grant us rain"
concerning your remark of taking Mary another God... we don't. i'm not certain how to put it any clearer, we do not believe Mary is God, like God or a god in her own right. we venerate (in the Catholic usage of the term) her and honor her as a holy person. afterall, if she was not sacred it wouldn't be "blasphemy" to insult her. isn't that so in islam? if they are not sacred, why is it "blasphemy" to draw pictures of your prophets?
but i don't know about islamic beliefs of shirk and not shirk, those are just the articles i found. my point is simple, we do not worship mary, muslims are incorrect when they say that we do or have ever done so. i, the Pope, and every Catholic who does not wish to be excommunicated could testify every day until the end of the world that Mary is not God, like God or a goddess in her own right.
jesus never claimed to be god....#1 why as a muslim would you point to the bible and say jesus never claimed to be god..remember muslims claim the bible to be corrupt..why would you point to a corrupt book to prove anything..secondly Jesus did claim to be god....before abraham was I..I and the father are one...when you look upon me you look upon the father..all said by jesus....I know the trinity is complex..but so is god..the universe and everything else..the problems with muslims is they need everything to be spelled out..black and white..they need everything to be simple..lol life, god and this universe is not simple..mankind will never come close to fully understanding any of it especailly god....the father, the son and the holy spirt are three parts of a whole..and please dont say impossible..nothing is impossible to god..and as for the worship of mary..i was raised catholic..and never once prayed to Mary..I am born again christian today..and love the lord
all tawasul means is to beseach... that is the meaning of the word.. not an invocation of jesus or mary or paul, or snieder or mcain!
i don't see why it's any different than this prayer: "O Allah, we used to beseech You by means of (the du'a of) Your Prophet for rain and You would give us rain; now we beseech You by means of (the du'a of) the paternal uncle of Your Prophet, so grant us rain"
There is no such prayer in Islam.. did you just make that up?
concerning your remark of taking Mary another God... we don't. i'm not certain how to put it any clearer, we do not believe Mary is God, like God or a god in her own right. we venerate (in the Catholic usage of the term) her and honor her as a holy person. afterall, if she was not sacred it wouldn't be "blasphemy" to insult her. isn't that so in islam? if they are not sacred, why is it "blasphemy" to draw pictures of your prophets?
what does it mean to be the mother of God to you?
if (x+2)=3
there can only be one logical conclusion for X..don't you think?
as for what it is blasphemy, it is so with an soulful creature lest people take them for Gods, like christians have!
I can't see your website.. and I have already explained what tawasul is.. I don't think you are very faimilar with Islamic rituals to quote me wiki or another site with such authority!
but i don't know about islamic beliefs of shirk and not shirk, those are just the articles i found. my point is simple, we do not worship mary, muslims are incorrect when they say that we do or have ever done so. i, the Pope, and every Catholic who does not wish to be excommunicated could testify every day until the end of the world that Mary is not God, like God or a goddess in her own right.
what makes you think the pope means anything to us? when it is visible to the naked eye, how your religion is practiced.. I already told you I went to catholic school, I have seen the girls pray by her statue not to mention do all sorts of of obscene things to it.. venerating in prayer other than Allah is to take partners unto him a cardinal sin..
look, I am not telling you, your beliefs are false or true..I suspect it doesn't make a difference to you, considering you are a practicing catholic.. what I am telling you is, from an Islamic point of view.. what you are doing is shirk, it doesn't reconcile with what we know to be monotheism.. but you are certainly welcome to believe it.. just don't draw these jejune comparabilities especially where none exist...I don't even have to be Muslim to see it... I suspect any monotheist or Jews, Manadeans or even agnostics who believe in God but don't enjoy mythology would view it the same exact way Muslims are..
que Dios te bendiga
peace to you!
Last edited by جوري; 11-26-2007 at 11:00 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
mary gave birth to jesus..therefore she is the mother of god..sorry just because you dont understand the christian trinity or fail to accept it doesnt make it any less true..god came to earth in the form of jesus..born of the virgin mary..miracle or miracles a virgin gives birth...mircle of miricles god walks among us..
mary gave birth to jesus..therefore she is the mother of god..sorry just because you dont understand the christian trinity or fail to accept it doesnt make it any less true..god came to earth in the form of jesus..born of the virgin mary..miracle or miracles a virgin gives birth...mircle of miricles god walks among us..
There is nothing to understand about Greek mythology.. although I am more partial to Greek myth than christianity, in the end it is all about relativism...
in Greek Mythology Zeus had sex with the mortal woman Alcmene and begat Heracles...but Heracles wasn't really God was he? he didn't send himself in the form of an angel to make An- nunciation of his own birth, and then die to go unto himself to become one in all...the critics will have to pan this performance. It doesn't sit well with most logical human beings... lest you wish to concede that you are indeed a polytheist, let's face it 3 doesn't equal 1. something most children learn by the time they are in elementary school.
You want to believe God is like you and worship a man and even now can buy him from the arkansas wal-mart, be my guest, but don't come speak to us of truth, because from where we are standing it is a bit around the bend..
cheerio
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
you can chose or to believe what ever you like. franky I dont care. I am 100% sure my lord is lord. no mythology involved. I can however point to many a mythological entity in the advent of islm. I just wont because it will not change your mind about islam so why bother.
by the way you do forget that muslims believe in the virgin birth as well. One would say that is impossible..but again nothing is impossible with the lord
you can chose or to believe what ever you like. franky I dont care. I am 100% sure my lord is lord. no mythology involved. I can however point to many a mythological entity in the advent of islm. I just wont because it will not change your mind about islam so why bother.
I am glad you don't care.. and I am even glad(der) you are so strong in your 'lord or lords' ... but why are you here?
If you have something of substance you mayimpart it in the refutation section.. we have pretty much seen it all from Dawkin to sina and all have been debunked.. I don't think you'll manage to stifle more than a yawn from most members...
my own personal thoughts on the matter.. you are not studied or talented enough to bring anything short of the usual cut and pastes we are accustomed to seeing.. rather falling on the curve of a bumpkinly hick
cheerio
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
by the way you do forget that muslims believe in the virgin birth as well. One would say that is impossible..but again nothing is impossible with the lord
you are not here to discuss Islamic beliefs rather your 'lord of lords'! what we believe of Jesus as far as you are concerned should be inconsequential..
so long as what you believe sits well with you, then that is all that should matter ey?
cheerio
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
what makes you think the pope means anything to us? when it is visible to the naked eye, how your religion is practiced.. I already told you I went to catholic school, I have seen the girls pray by her statue not to mention do all sorts of of obscene things to it..
peace to you!
You are a muslim, so Im sure that you wouldnt like to judge your religion based on what muslims do.
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
You are a muslim, so Im sure that you wouldnt like to judge your religion based on what muslims do.
finding Allah SWT is a matter of the heart and a 'solo' spiritual journey.. at the end of the day, when a member(s) come here to write BS.. they are bound to read something they are not going to like..
from a very basic point and a very fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is the trinity. To you Islam is a false religion, a religion of the devil or whatever the flavor of the month.. to us christianity is taking a prophet (man) for a God, venerating false idols and building statues for them...
Not everyone goes to school, some people wake up in the morning and think that is their God, at walmart, or in the black baptist church, or in the white anglican church... to most christians it is making God more approachable or I don't know whatever their reasons...in Islam it is called shirk.. by the end of the day I'll remain Muslim insha'Allah and you'll remain a christian, each of us holding on to his/her views..
and that is ok...but I'll not tolerate insolence from an ignoramus with three posts under his belt and an agenda!
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
finding Allah SWT is a matter of the heart and a 'solo' spiritual journey.. at the end of the day, when a member(s) come here to write BS.. they are bound to read something they are not going to like..
from a very basic point and a very fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is the trinity. To you Islam is a false religion, a religion of the devil or whatever the flavor of the month.. to us christianity is taking a prophet (man) for a God, venerating false idols and building statues for them...
Not everyone goes to school, some people wake up in the morning and think that is their God, at walmart, or in the black baptist church, or in the white anglican church... to most christians it is making God more approachable or I don't know whatever their reasons...in Islam it is called shirk.. by the end of the day I'll remain Muslim insha'Allah and you'll remain a christian, each of us holding on to his/her views..
and that is ok...but I'll not tolerate insolence from an ignoramus with three posts under his belt and an agenda!
peace!
Ok you are even right, but honestly, you think that it is allright to say things like-"I know what some girls did in catholic school" ? You know well that you won't find sinless person in this world. In neither of world's religion.I know that i am "per" troll for you, but sometimes even trolls say not stupid things.
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
Ok you are even right, but honestly, you think that it is allright to say things like-"I know what some girls did in catholic school" ? You know well that you won't find sinless person in this world. In neither of world's religion.I know that i am "per" troll for you, but sometimes even trolls say not stupid things.
actually I am finding the change in your attitude refreshing..I don't know if it happened consequent to that day I made the post, or you just reflected on your words a little and mellowed down? or found some commonalities and rather hang on to those than differences... whatever the case, I don't LABEL people for life if indeed I sense a change and sincerity...I am not that egoistical..nor do I enjoy having a clangorous need for self-righteousness humbug as some do!
As for what the girls did as in 'rubbing' the statue and using foul language, yes that isn't christianity... however kneeling before statues of Jesus or mary during mass as they were being handed sacraments or whatever bread they were receiving, was.. and that is mainly what I am talking about... it is ok that you want to defend that.. You can't honestly expect that people will agree with that anymore than you expect them to crucify you for it? It is parts of your rituals.. a ritual that we muslims consider shirk... that is all... it is what it is!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I believe that the reason why images of animals and humans are forbidden in Islam is to prevent them from becoming objects of worship. Consider the very first of the 10 Commandments in the Bible.
Exodus 20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God,
The One God spoken of in this passage is beyond our comprehension as has been stated already. This point illustrates one of the difficulties that I have encountered in Islam. Ihsan is perfection in religion as defined in the hadith where the Angel Gabriel questioned Prophet Muhammad, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Honestly, since I have absolutely no mental image of Allah when I perform salah 5X/day, it is very difficult for me to "worship Allah as if I see Him". Contrast this to when I was a Christian and partook of Communion, I clearly had an image of Jesus hanging on the cross as the object of my devotion for "having died for my sins".
This illustrates to me the blasphemous offense of ascribing partners with Allah. To say that God became man (Jesus) is to limit His Being down to something that we can comprehend and to say that God dwells within us (Holy Spirit) is to further limit Him as existing within something that is limited and imperfect. As a Muslim I worship the One God, the Most Compassionate, the Merciful, the Creator, the Cherisher, and the Sustainer of the universe - exalted is He above what they ascribe to Him!
I believe that the reason why images of animals and humans are forbidden in Islam is to prevent them from becoming objects of worship. Consider the very first of the 10 Commandments in the Bible.
Exodus 20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God,
The One God spoken of in this passage is beyond our comprehension as has been stated already. This point illustrates one of the difficulties that I have encountered in Islam. Ihsan is perfection in religion as defined in the hadith where the Angel Gabriel questioned Prophet Muhammad, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Honestly, since I have absolutely no mental image of Allah when I perform salah 5X/day, it is very difficult for me to "worship Allah as if I see Him". Contrast this to when I was a Christian and partook of Communion, I clearly had an image of Jesus hanging on the cross as the object of my devotion for "having died for my sins".
This illustrates to me the blasphemous offense of ascribing partners with Allah. To say that God became man (Jesus) is to limit His Being down to something that we can comprehend and to say that God dwells within us (Holy Spirit) is to further limit Him as existing within something that is limited and imperfect. As a Muslim I worship the One God, the Most Compassionate, the Merciful, the Creator, the Cherisher, and the Sustainer of the universe - exalted is He above what they ascribe to Him!
Yes, but you are breaking it down into "partners", whereas a Christian would not. Of course we've all been over this a hundred times and it doesn't seem to matter at all in the end. Islam has its view of what Christianity is, and Christianity has its view of what Islam is...and frankly I don't see that changing anytime soon. We aren't going to change anybody's mind about what faith they have embraced. Sometimes I wonder what use it really is to argue these same points over and over again.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Yes, but you are breaking it down into "partners", whereas a Christian would not. Of course we've all been over this a hundred times and it doesn't seem to matter at all in the end. Islam has its view of what Christianity is, and Christianity has its view of what Islam is...and frankly I don't see that changing anytime soon. We aren't going to change anybody's mind about what faith they have embraced. Sometimes I wonder what use it really is to argue these same points over and over again.
Yes, I agree that neither Muslim nor Christian is likely to change his/her mind as a result of these discussions. As a Muslim I feel a responsibility to defend my faith and to put forward what I believe is the Truth. Particularly since I live in a non-Muslim country, I share the responsibility of Ibrahim to witness and do what I can to dispel falsehood. Quran 21:52-54 Remember that occasion when Ibrahim asked his father and his people, "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied, "We found our forefathers worshipping them." He said "Then certainly both you and your forefathers have been in manifest error."
We Muslims have clearly laid out what we see as shirk (ascribing partners to Allah) within Christianity. It seems that the Christian objective is to prove to us 1) that we are wrong in this perception, 2) that the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and yet fully God is not shirk and 3) that having statues of Jesus and Mary in places of worship is OK. You are not likely to prove to me that the Qur'an is wrong in stating that "they disbelieve who say Jesus is the Son of God" or to convince me that my very salvation depends on my affirming the very thing that I reject. My faith about Jesus remains as outlined in Qur'an 5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!
all tawasul means is to beseach... that is the meaning of the word.. not an invocation of jesus or mary or paul, or snieder or mcain!
hola,
when you address a dead person in prayer and apply honorifics to them and ask for them to speak to God for you, that's intercession, regardless of what the word means in arabic it's exactly the same thing.
There is no such prayer in Islam.. did you just make that up?
the same thing mother means for anybody else, the woman that carried you and brought you into the world. when God decided to make Himself manifest and be among us (emmanuel) He chose a woman to bare Him into the world, Mary. when she did this and took care of Him as He grew she became His mother.
if (x+2)=3
there can only be one logical conclusion for X..don't you think?
as for what it is blasphemy, it is so with an soulful creature lest people take them for Gods, like christians have!
please connect your algebra problem to whatever point it is you are attempting to make...
and i do not understand why you are trying to pretend insulting mohamed is not blasphemy. on another thread we see that in sudan this is taken so seriously a woman faces 40 lashes for allowing kids in her class to name their teddy bears mohamed. it's part of your shahadah. contrary to what muslims often present you don't just have to believe in God without partners to go to heaven - you have to believe in mohamed as well.
even the forum rules agree with me, we are not allowed to say anything blasphemous about islamic prophets.
why then is it so different when we Catholics do it?
I can't see your website.. and I have already explained what tawasul is.. I don't think you are very faimilar with Islamic rituals to quote me wiki or another site with such authority!
until several hours ago you didn't even know what Tawasul was, i had to link you to a wikipedia article. i don't understand why i should consider you an expert now, or why a translation of the word from arabic to english stands as a definition.
replace the @, with an 'a.' for some terribly convenient reason my link was changed last time, and it completely destroys your argument.
what makes you think the pope means anything to us? when it is visible to the naked eye, how your religion is practiced.. I already told you I went to catholic school, I have seen the girls pray by her statue not to mention do all sorts of of obscene things to it.. venerating in prayer other than Allah is to take partners unto him a cardinal sin..
well... you write letters to him and burn his effigy when you get angry. so i assume that muslims recognize him as a figurehead for our religion, consequently when he says something i assume it you would consider it authoritative. but you went to three years of Catholic school so you probably know more.
we do not take Mary for God or like God. whatever it is you seem to think you have seen is simply not what you interpreted it to be. it's okay to accept you are not 100% right all the time.
look, I am not telling you, your beliefs are false or true..I suspect it doesn't make a difference to you, considering you are a practicing catholic.. what I am telling you is, from an Islamic point of view.. what you are doing is shirk, it doesn't reconcile with what we know to be monotheism.. but you are certainly welcome to believe it.. just don't draw these jejune comparabilities especially where none exist...I don't even have to be Muslim to see it... I suspect any monotheist or Jews, Manadeans or even agnostics who believe in God but don't enjoy mythology would view it the same exact way Muslims are..
peace to you!
it's not that you're telling me whether my beliefs are false or true. that wouldn't make a difference to me. it's that you are telling me what my beliefs are that bothers me, i'm sure the islamic opinion is that we commit shirk. that's fine, it's just a meaningless arabic word to me. but at least understand that your rationale is based upon a complete mischaracterization of our practices and beliefs.
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