Refutation: "From among their brethren..." (A Jewish brethren only?)

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -

during the time of Jesus Christ and the Jews were still waiting for the coming of this prophet[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR], can be ascertained from the following passage of the Gospel According To John:

[INDENT][COLOR=purple][B][I]And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet [stress added]? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (...). And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?[35]

actually that passage exposes the deception of the NT writers ,as they tried to convince the reader of their stuff that such 3 distinct prophecies came true the time of Jesus!!!!

How?

first let us take a look at the text of the Old Testament to see upon what basis the Jews asked Joh the baptist such 3 questions:

"And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:

a) not that Christ,
the promised in 1 Chron. 22:8-10,Isaiah 11:2,Ezekiel 40
Isaiah 2:4
etc.......

b) nor Elias,
Malachi 4:5
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.


c) neither that prophet?"

"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Deuteronomy 18:18


the zealous New Testament writers who often let their imaginations do their walking through OT pages,as their hearts precedes their heads, their desire precedes their discretion, their wish precedes their wisdom,tried to convince the reader that during the time of Jesus the 3 distinct prophecies got fulfilled by Jesus and John the baptist !!!!!!

claiming that the prophecy of Elijah the prophet's return to earth got fulfilled by John the baptist who came with the power and spirit of Elijah!!!!!!

that is for sure a living example of how far the NT writers have embarked with their readers upon a journey into the realm of myth and fantasy in which the distortion, pervertion, misapplication of the Old Testament verses exists in
a sizable number.

then passing by Deuteronomy 18:18 ,claiming that Jesus fulfilled it,though not only Jesus lacks the basic thing(Law giver)that makes him (like unto Moses) but they ignore the Old Testament concept regarding the Promised king Messiah who will be neither a prophet nor incarnated god.......

and that is one of the most egregious violations of intellectual integrity by the founders of Christianity,but no wonder as they did it for the purposes of indoctrination......
and "The Ends Justify The Means"

format_quote Originally Posted by Imam

well, why you claim that it is Peter's interpretation of that passage? aren-t you convinced that what his(the inspired) claims to be true,and Jesus is the one who fulfilled it?

here you your position is weakened more and more

if according to you the original prophecy could be applied to a list of prophets, how on earth the writer of acts argues that it is specific to Jesus?


To be continued

What I said initially was based only on reading the particular single verse that had been presented. After reading the verse in context, I would like to remove the list, and limit it as I did in my last post to one who was present with the people at that time. Now, Peter chooses to reinterpret the passage using Moses as a typology of Christ. And if you wish to reinterpet it a second time use Moses as a typology for Muhammad, I guess you can. I'm not going to argue with Peter. And I don't see any point in arguing with you either. An interesting thing about Hebraic prophecies, they were sometimes fulfilled more than once having a repetitious cycle which eventually culminates in a final fulfillment. If we accept Peter's interpretation, that final fulfillment would be in Jesus. Of course, Islam is never content to leave anything with Jesus and must continue to Muhammad. That's your religion, your entitled, but I don't believe that your interpretations are correct.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

I’m sorry for my absence of late but I was terribly ill. I’m feeling a little better so I wanted to address some of your “concerns.”

First of all, I was glad to see this:

Originally posted by Grace Seeker, I really had this experience once with some Jr. High kids in my confirmation class at church. They were trying so desperately to give the the answers they "thought" I wanted to hear, that they quit thinking altogether. Pretty soon they were giving me Jesus as the answer to every question, no matter how poorly such an answer fit. Finally, I asked them what was brownish red, climbed trees, had a long bushy tail, and stored nuts for the winter. They looked at me, and with perplexed by serious faces said that it sounded like a squirrel, but since it was confirnation class, knew the answer had to be Jesus.

A VERY SIMILAR thing happens when Christians look at the Torah and Tanakh! Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is taken as referring to Jesus, ad naseum and others will kick and scream and hold their breath insisting that there is absolutely nothing in either which prophesies Islam. It’s hard to believe, I know, but still they are like that, especially if you bring up Melchizedek!

My intent is to address this:

Originally posted by Grace Seeker You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

This is a valid question, can we use the Torah, as it is today to attempt to discover the identity of “them?” I’m pretty sure that we can, so lets’ take a look at the event which brings us to Mt.’s Sinai & Horeb. It’s called EXODUS! So, let’s look there to see if we can find any clues.

Now, I’m sure that we can all agree that the descendants of Jacob are at times referred to as the “children of Israel”, AND we know that Ishmael is Jacob’s Uncle, so in that manor, they ARE brethren. But let’s take a look at Exodus to see what we can learn there. What we find is a term from Genesis itself used to differentiate the “children of Israel” from the Egyptians, and that is the term Hebrews. The term itself is from an ancestor of Abraham, a descendant of Shem, Eber. Now, the descendants of Shem are referred to as Semites and those of Eber as Hebrews. In the 11th Chapter of Genesis we read in part” …and Shem begot Arpachshad…and Arpachshad begot Shelah…and Shelah begot Eber. So we see here that Eber is Shem’s great grandson. Reading further we read: and Eber begot Peleg…and Peleg begot Reu…and Reu begot Serug...and Serug begot Nahor…and Nahor begot Terah…and Terah begot Abram. That makes Eber Abraham’s great-great-great-great grandfather! (And Shem his great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather! Phew!)


In chapter 9 verse 26 of Genesis we read in part: Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. One wonders why the Lord is called the God of Shem. We find an “undercover” clue in Genesis chapter 14, to wit:
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem [d] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator [e] of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be [f] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.


So who is this mysterious Melchizedek, priest of God Most High? First of every Christian and his brother will of course say “its Jesus, Jesus!” Why, because that’s what Christians do with the Tanakh, they try to turn everything into Jesus!

But what do the Jewish say about our mysterious high priest? Lets look at the notes for verse 18 in the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd:


…The sages unanimously identify Malchizedek, King of Salem as Shem, son of Noah (Rashi). He was so called because he was king [melech] over a place known for its righteousness [zedek] (Ibn Ezra); a place which would not tolerate any form of injustice or abomination for an extended time period (Radak); or, according to Ramban, because he ruled over the future site of the Temple, home of the zedek, the righteous Shechinah, which was known even then to be sacred. Thus, Malchizedek might designate him as “king of the place of zedek, righteousness.”

Just below wee see a reference to Shem on 10:21, among others, which reads in part: Why should the Torah associate him (Shem) with Eber more than any other of his offspring? …Shem was the primogenitor of all the descendants of Eber from who came forth the Hebrews (Radak, Ibn Ezra)…Although Shem had may descendants, Eber’s children were the most favored of his offspring because they were righteous like him (Arbarbanel). Sforno comments that those who believed in god were called I(b)rim, after Eber their teacher. Shem, because he was also their teacher, is called the “father” of Eber’s “children” meaning his “students”, because students are called the children of their teacher. [As a side note, it is also Jewish a belief that Jacob spent 14 years engaged at the Academy of Eber in Jerusalem]
Back to the notes on 14:18: Ramban explains that Shem was the most honored among the generation of Canaanites, and he therefore became the priest of God the most high in Jerusalem…


Back to the topic at hand, is the term Hebrew used in the Exodus story? Why yes it is, in fact is used at least 9 times:
Chapter 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."

2:6 She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. "This is one of the Hebrew babies," she said.
7 Then his sister asked Pharaoh's daughter, "Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?"

11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, "Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?"

21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

Now, even more phenomenally, the God of the Patriarchs transforms into none other than the God of the Hebrews! We see this at least 6 times:
Exodus 3:18
"The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.
Exodus 5:3
Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."
Exodus 7:16
Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened
Exodus 9:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."
Exodus 9:13
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me
Exodus 10:3
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me.


So the “God of the Exodus” in fact becomes the God of the righteous descendants of Shem through his “son” Eber! Now if we apply this to Deuteronomy18: 18, we get:

17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among “the righteous descendants of Shem through his “son” Eber”; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
We now have a translation that is correct as well as accurate that CAN apply to a descendant of Eber in the form of ANY descendant of Ishmael!

Its fascinating isn't it? Now I can already hear the Christians questioning whether or not Ishmael and his descendants have any claim to the title righteous! Well, that’s part 2, Insha’ Allah!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

Here's assessment of Ishmael's righteousness:

Was Ishmael righteous?

Most of us remember Ishmael in Genesis by the comment, he shall be “a wild-ass of a man” and some consider him to be somehow illegitimate.

Let us clear up these misconceptions. For sources we’ll use The Stone Edition Chumash The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with A Commentary Anthologized From The Rabbinic Writings by Mesorah Publishing as well as the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd, hereafter referred to as the Chumash or Bereishsis/ Genesis respectively.

From the Chumash we read 16:3, So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maidservant – after 10 years of Abram’s dwelling in the Land of Canaan – and gave her to Abram her husband, to him as a wife. He consorted with Hagar and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was lowered in her esteem.

16 The Birth of Ishmael. Despite their spiritual riches and Godly assurances, Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.

Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh. After seeing the miracles that were brought on Sarah’s behalf when she was abducted and taken to his palace, he gave her to Hagar, saying, “Better that she be a servant in their house, than a princess in someone else’s.” So it was that Hagar, an Egyptian princess, became Abraham’s wife and bore him Ishmael.

In the notes to verse 4 – Her mistress was lowered. Hagar brazenly boasted to the ladies, “Since so many years have passed without Sarai having children, she cannot be as righteous as she seems. But I conceived immediately!” (Rashi). Now that Hagar had assured Abraham’s posterity, she no longer felt subservient to Sarah (Radak).

A few notes about Sarah and Hagar from verses 6 – 8:
Verse 6 “your maidservant is in your hand; do to her as you see fit.” To me she is a wife; and I have no right to treat her unkindly. But to you she is a servant; if she mistreats you, do what you feel is right. (Radak; Haamek Davar). Sarah’s intent was not malicious, but to force Hagar to cease from her insulting demeanor. But instead of acknowledging Sarah’s superior position, Hagar fled (Arbarbanel; Sforno).

Rabbi Aryeh Levin noted that it is congruous to believe that a woman as righteous as Sarah would persecute another human being out of personal pique. Rather, Sarah treated Hagar as she always had, but in the light of Hagar’s newly inflated self-image, she took it as persecution.

We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:

V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.


Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!


I got lazy and copied this from the Jewish Publication Society, the first half of Genesis chapter 25:

1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah

3 And Jokshan begot Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian: Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts; and he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years

8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

9 And Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

10 the field which Abraham purchased of the children of Heth; there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed Isaac his son; and Isaac dwelt by Beer-lahai-roi.

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham.

13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

14 and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa;

15 Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem;

16 these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations

17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Asshur: over against all his brethren he did settle.

Let’s begin with the part dealing with Ishmael first. We see in verse 9 that both Isaac and Ishmael buried their Abraham, what does this tell us? Well, for one, we can confirm that there was NEVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was Abraham’s firstborn, NOR was there EVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was to Abraham “your son, your only son”. Those terms could ONLY be used to describe Ishmael, Abraham’s firstborn son. But we are not here to speculate who changed THAT story!

In Bereishsis/ Genesis, the notes for verse 17. Ishmael’s age is given because it assists in calculations with respect to [dating the various events which occurred during the life of] Jacob (Rashi [Yevamos 64a]) [and this is footnoted, which reads in part: 1 Rashi goes on to explain that we calculate from Ishmael’s age at his death that Jacob attended the Academy of Eber for fourteen years from the time he left his fathers’ house to the time he arrived at Laban’s house (as explained in Megillah 17a); to which we have the sub footnote: [Briefly, according to the data cited in Megillah 17a, when Jacob stood before Pharaoh he should have been 116 years old, yet Jacob himself gave his age as 130(Gen. 47:9). The discrepancy is explained by the fact that he spent fourteen years in the Academy of Eber after leaving his fathers’ house.]
According to Ramban [to this verse but cited in v12] Ishmael’s age is noted here because he repented and the age of the righteous is generally stated. Rashbam holds that it is recorded as a mark of honor for Abraham. Since the torah had mentioned Abraham’s age at Ishmael’s birth, and Ishmael’s age when he underwent circumcision. It now concludes by mentioning his lifespan. Further on we read Rashi comments that…is only mentioned in the case of righteous people [such as Ishmael, since he repented…]…
According to R’ Bachya it [the phrase “and was gathered unto his people”] is based the use in our verse of both expired and died – which refer to the death only of the righteous – and the Sages said that Ishmael repented of his evil ways.

So whatever ill will the Jews may harbor against Ishmael [that they say he had “evil” ways], he is cleared of any error and claimed by JEWISH Sages to be “of the righteous!” note the similarity in regards to Abraham in verse 8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. Compared to of Ishmael in verse 17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Also, consider that we saw in the notes to Genesis 16 “that Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.” This tells us that it was the intent of Abraham and Sarah to raise Ishmael “so that he would be considered her adopted child!” it stands within reason but our case doesn’t rely solely on it, that in their job of “parenting” Ishmael [up until the birth of Isaac] that they would have sent him to the “Academy of Eber in Jerusalem” for proper training in the “mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind.” So from Ishmael's beginning and again at the end of his life we can put him in the category of the “sons” of Eber, and thus an Hebrew.


We will take another look at Hagar, just in case any see her as a reason to disqualify Ishmael as one of the “righteous.” Let’s look again at 25:1, And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
The notes say that there is a Hebrew word in the phrase which means “again” which would literally mean: And Abraham again took a wife, which is interpreted by the Sages to intimate the Abraham remarried to before: Hagar.

Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).
In 21:14 Rashi comments that Hagar reverted to the idolatry of her father’s house. How then does he now call her action “beautiful as incense?” – Rather, when she was expelled from Abraham’s household she felt forsaken even by his God and she intended to revert to her idolatrous ways. But when the miracle occurred at the well, she repented (Gur Aryeh).

The Zohar similarly comments that although she had relapsed into her ancestral idolatry, she later repented and changed her name, after which Abraham sent for and married her. From this we see that a change of name males atonement for guilt, for she made this change of name symbolic of her change of behavior.
[Immediately following this there is a note discussing some Hebrew phraseology which…denotes that Keturah was righteous and fit for Abraham.]

Although Hagar/Keturah was a first generation Egyptian and hence forbidden in marriage [see Deut.32: 9], nevertheless, since his first marriage to her was with God’s sanction, she remained permissible to him for remarriage as well. Furthermore, the Midrash [Bereishis Rabbah 60:4] specifically states that Abraham married Keturah/Hagar by Divine Command (Tur).
Targum Yonasan renders the verse: and Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah; she is Hagar who had been bound to him…from the beginning.

So we here additionally that if there were any ill feelings on the part of the Jews for Hagar, regardless of whether or not she is Keturah, the Jewish sources claim that not only was Hagar “permissible” for Abraham, but they actually speak quite highly of her considering the circumstances. Based on that I would reject any effort to disqualify Ishmael as a “son of Eber” based upon anything said about him or his mother, Hagar.

The actual words of Dueteronomy require some "discussion" in order to explain some of the phrases which seem out of place, but that might actually help us with identifying that "prophet." THAT is the next step, Insha' Allah.

format_quote Originally Posted by Imam

versus




Not only you contradict yourself,but also
the notion of a "multiple fulfillments " which you crafted is not only unbiblical but absured as well.....
If you could prove it to be Biblical ,how you decide that a specific prophecy that has a repetitious cycle will eventually culminates in a final fulfillment?

if for example the prophecy in Exodus has a repetitious cycle of fulfillments,then you made it elastic prophecy that will stretch its hand to any future fulfillment,to Jesus,Mohamed and anyone else till day of judgment......

Perhaps you have missed what I thought was obvious. I am giving you my reading of the text AND I am giving you the view taken by others. Yes, they are different. But neither of them supports the conclusion you have come to, and I don't find you providing substantiation for your views that allows for the context at all.




Yusuf, I've read your 2 posts, but must be dense as I don't get the connection between showing that Ishamael was indeed a valued son of Abraham and this passage wherein Ishmael and his descendants are not present. I think perhaps you want to make the point that since Moses was leading the Hebrews and not just the Israelites, that there could have been descendants of Ishmael present in the group too. Then as Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, if one uses Moses as a typology in the way that Peter does in Acts, the passage could be applied to Muhammad as easily as Peter applied it to Jesus. Is that what you are trying to say?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Yusuf, I've read your 2 posts, but must be dense as I don't get the connection between showing that Ishamael was indeed a valued son of Abraham and this passage wherein Ishmael and his descendants are not present.

breaking news: who says Ishmael's descendants aren't present???


I think perhaps you want to make the point that since Moses was leading the Hebrews and not just the Israelites, that there could have been descendants of Ishmael present in the group too.

hint: who is Jethro?


Then as Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, if one uses Moses as a typology in the way that Peter does in Acts, the passage could be applied to Muhammad as easily as Peter applied it to Jesus. Is that what you are trying to say?

i have no idea what you mean by that!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

i am actually quite surprised by what i've learned regarding this issue. the 1st being the prescence of Ishmaelites at Horeb/Sinai, and the 2nd is the identity of Jethro/Jether and In Sha'a Allah i'll write about these soo!n

keep in mind [in keeping with the similarites between Moses, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam and Mohammad ibn Abdullah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam] that Moses, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was sent to rescue the Israelites in Egypt and the Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam went to Yathrib [it's name at the time and another hint] where there were 3 tribes of Jews! along with the Aus and the Khazraj.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Jethro is of course Moses' father-in-law. But what is the connection to Ishmael. There is a Reuel mentioned in Genesis 36 and 1 Chronicles 1 that is a descendant of Ishmael and Esau (Jacob's brother) and Jethro apparently also went by the name Reuel, but the same name not withstanding, they are not the same person. Also, Jethro/Reuel did not accompany Moses on the Exodus, nor did Moses' own wife and children.

So, why is it that your seem to imply that Ishmael's descendants are present as part of the Exodus? Is it simply your assertion that because the term Hebrew includes more than just Jews that we therefore have Ishmael's descendents in this particular group that Moses is leading?


Moses is not sent to lead all of the Hebrews, but only the Israelites:

The covenant that God made with the people through Moses, he made only with the house of Jacob (Isaac's son):

And while there were other semitic peoples besides Israelites that could properly be called Hebrews, the Hebrews that accompanied Moses, that were among the brethern that is being referred to in the desert with Moses, is the nation of Israel, not Israel plus others.



Subsequent to the burial of Abraham, the next mention of Ishmael/Ishmaelites in the Torah is when the Israelites are taking possession of the land of Canaan (not during the Exodus) and then they are apparently among those that are being opposed. If we consider Midianites to be descendants of Ishmael, then one must acknowledged that they were not a part of those journeying with Moses, but among of those who hired Balaam to curse Moses and the people with him (see Numbers 7).

So, unless you have something else, it does not seem that there were any Ishmaelites to be numbered among the brethern accompanying Moses to be referenced in Deuteronomy 18:18.

of course i have something else!

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

of course i have something else!

and, Alhumdulillah, here it is!

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem,

We begin with Allah’s Blessed name; we praise Him and we glorify Him as He aught to be glorified and we pray for peace and blessings on all His Noble Messengers and in particular the last of them all, the blessed Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

Just to recap, what we are attempting to show here is “according to the Bible,” were Ishmaelites present at Sinai with Moses [Alaihe Salaam]. To make it easier on me I’ll do this in 2 parts, In Sha’a Allah. In this post we’ll lay the foundation for our conclusions, In Sha’a Allah.

which is meant to answer:

So, unless you have something else, it does not seem that there were any Ishmaelites to be numbered among the brethern accompanying Moses to be referenced in Deuteronomy 18:18.

To begin let’s go to Genesis and see if we discover any clues there.

Genesis 37:
25 As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a
caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels
were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their
way to take them down to Egypt.
26 Judah said to his brothers, "What will we gain if we kill our
brother and cover up his blood?
27 Come, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our
hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and
blood." His brothers agreed.
28 So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled
Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels
of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt.
29 When Reuben returned to the cistern and saw that Joseph was
not there, he tore his clothes.
30 He went back to his brothers and said, "The boy isn't there!
Where can I turn now?"
31 Then they got Joseph's robe, slaughtered a goat and dipped
the robe in the blood.
32 They took the ornamented robe back to their father and said,
"We found this. Examine it to see whether it is your son's
robe."
33 He recognized it and said, "It is my son's robe! Some
ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been
torn to pieces."
34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and mourned for
his son many days.
35 All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he
refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I
go down to the grave to my son." So his father wept for
him.
36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold Joseph in Egypt to
Potiphar, one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain of the
guard.

Genesis 39:
1 Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. Potiphar, an
Egyptian who was one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain
of the guard, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had
taken him there.

Here we see that Ishmaelite and Midianite were used interchangeably, thus implying that they are one and the same. Is this done anywhere else in the Bible? Let’s take a look at Judges to see if we can find any more clues.

Judges 6:
2 Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites
prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves
and strongholds.

Judges 7:
8 ... Now the camp of Midian lay below him [Gideon] in the valley.
9 During that night the LORD said to Gideon, "Get up, go down
against the camp, because I am going to give it into your
hands.
10 If you are afraid to attack, go down to the camp with your
servant Purah
11 and listen to what they are saying. Afterward, you will be
encouraged to attack the camp." So he and Purah his servant
went down to the outposts of the camp.
12 The Midianites, the Amalekites and all the other eastern
peoples had settled in the valley, thick as locusts. Their
camels could no more be counted than the sand on the
seashore.

and

Judges 8:
22 The Israelites said to Gideon, "Rule over us--you, your son
and your grandson--because you have saved us out of the hand
of Midian."
23 But Gideon told them, "I will not rule over you, nor will my
son rule over you. The LORD will rule over you."
24 And he said, "I do have one request, that each of you give me
an earring from your share of the plunder." (It was the
custom of the Ishmaelites to wear gold earrings.)
25 They answered, "We'll be glad to give them." So they spread
out a garment, and each man threw a ring from his plunder
onto it.
26 The weight of the gold rings he asked for came to seventeen
hundred shekels, not counting the ornaments, the pendants
and the purple garments worn by the kings of Midian or the
chains that were on their camels' necks.

To make it easy on me, I copies the verses from this website:

http://www.********************/BibleCom/gen37-25.html

which, by the way also includes this:

Let me quote from the footnotes of the NIV Study Bible:
37:25 Ishmaelites. Also called Midianites (v. 28; see Judges 8:22,24,26) and Medanites (see NIV text note on v. 36). These various tribal groups were interrelated, since Midian and Medan, like Ishmael, were also sons of Abraham (25:2).


Here also we see the 2 mentioned in similar context. In fact many commentaries on the bible that claim that: “the term "Ishamelite" was synonymous with the term "Midianites."

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulti...-or-midianites

Another website says:

Incidentally, the Midianites and the Ishmaelites were related. The Ishmaelites were descendents of Abraham through Hagar. And the Midianites were descendants of Abraham through Keturah.

I have seen commentary from Christian researchers that claim that the terms "Midianites" and "Ishmaelites" were interchangeable. This is partly based on the use of the two tribal names in Judges 8:22 and Judges 8:24, which indicate that the names might have been interchangeable. Perhaps the names were interchangeable because the two tribes were intermixed to the extent that either name would suffice in describing them.

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/q12.htm

When we look back at an earlier post we see that both Ishmael and Midian are offspring of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam and that Hagar, according to Jewish Midrash, is actually Keturah:

Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).

In light of this information, can we place any Ishmaelites at Sinai with Moses, Alaihe Salaam? And if so, can we place them in close proximity to Moses, Alaihe Salaam?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Dregging up stuff that appears to be a year old.


i'll post at my own pace and discretion, thank you very much!


No, for the same reasons that I cited above. They were not the people that were travelling with Moses. Unless you mean "close proximity" merely in the sense that they might have been observers of Moses and the Israelites passing by, I still don't think so.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

well then, you better grab a hold of your socks!

cuz i don't think anyone could have been closer to Moses!

hint, hint, hint

Zipporah was a (singular) Midianite, and not (plural) Midianites. (Though according to the custom of the time, I believe that she might no longer have been viewed as a Midianite at all following her marriage to Moses. This is what I suspect, though I am not completely sure.) But if this is your reference, I do see where you are going in suggesting that Ishamael had descendants among the Israelites. (I'm still going to call them Israelites. But I suppose I person can be both an Israelite and an Ishmaelite at the same time.)

Good job on your research.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Zipporah was a (singular) Midianite, and not (plural) Midianites.

what, and she and Moses, pbuh, didn't have any children?

(Though according to the custom of the time, I believe that she might no longer have been viewed as a Midianite at all following her marriage to Moses. This is what I suspect, though I am not completely sure.) But if this is your reference, I do see where you are going in suggesting that Ishamael had descendants among the Israelites. (I'm still going to call them Israelites. But I suppose I person can be both an Israelite and an Ishmaelite at the same time.)

Good job on your research.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

and please, refresh my memory, of all of those adults "that were travelling with Moses", exactly how many made it into the promised land? :blind:

and, could you repeat that?

I didn't say that Zipporah and Moses had no children. They indeed did. But, according to the tribal culture they would have all been classified as Israelites, not Midianites. Yet, I recognized what you were saying when this thread started about descendants of Ishmael. This is why I said:

I do see where you are going in suggesting that Ishamael had descendants [note I made this word plural, not singular] among the Israelites.

I even commended you for doing a "good job in your research". What more do you want? Don't be so contentious as to go looking for disagreement when there is none.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

and please, refresh my memory, of all of those adults "that were travelling with Moses", exactly how many made it into the promised land? :blind:

2 -- Joshua and Caleb

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

2 -- Joshua and Caleb

Haven't seen any holy books or wise words from either Joshua or caleb to withstand the test of time .. they get an honorable mention in wikipedia but not 1.86 billion followers.. curious indeed

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

I didn't say that Zipporah and Moses had no children. They indeed did. But, according to the tribal culture they would have all been classified as Israelites, not Midianites. Yet, I recognized what you were saying when this thread started about descendants of Ishmael. This is why I said: I even commended you for doing a "good job in your research". What more do you want? Don't be so contentious as to go looking for disagreement when there is none.

2 -- Joshua and Caleb

Graceseeker, forgive me, but reading your debate against Imam, you didn't answer alot of his points, especially the contradiction in Acts you made.

Salaam

Good job Yusuf Noor - This has cleared a lot of things up for me and shows that there is a solid bases of Prophet Muhammad pbuh being the prophet of Duetoronmy 18:18.

peace