Refutation: "From among their brethren..." (A Jewish brethren only?)

This is carried on from that top post...


I did a bit of research and i think the Edomites are the descendants of Isaac [Isshaaq], therefore the son of Isaac - Jacob (Ya'qub) [also known as Israel - children of Israel are the 12 tribes of the Jewish race] is the brother of Esau - the father of the Edomites.


Esau + Jacob [brothers] - descendants of Isaac. Known as the brothers of the Jews in the Old Testament (although there descendants are really cousins of each other.)

The lineage of Prophets which are well known are from the descendants of Jacob - children of Israel [bani Israel.]




If jews claim that Prophethood only came to the Children of Israel [Jacob/Ya'qub] - they are still saying that they have brothers (who are really their cousins.) Therefore, according to their own scripture - their brethren are their cousins. According to the Old Testament then, the Edomites could be Prophets, yet there is no mention of them having Prophethood. However, according to the Old Testament - it would be possible that Prophethood could be from the descendants of Esau.



Is there any mention of Ishmael [Isma'il] being a brethren?

King James Version - Genesis 16:11
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Genesis 16:12
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Genesis 25:17
And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.


Genesis 25:18
And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

It's really obvious from these texts that Ishmael [Isma'il] is referred to as a brother, Esau is also a brother - since the Arabs and Jews are cousins, they can also be referred to as brothers by looking at the earlier texts [when the Edomites are referred to as brothers to the Jews - Arabs can also be brethren of the Jews, although they are cousins, no matter what the distance this is between them, whether they are far cousins or close cousins. - they can still be referred to as brethren.]


We can conclude that Edomites can fit into that Prophecy of being from their brethren and therefore have Prophethood from among them, the descendants of Jacob can fit into that Prophecy [the jews], and the Arabs can also fit into that Prophecy.





From there, we can prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from 'among their brethren.' and out of all cases - he is the most similar to Moses.

In simple terms: The Jews had cousins (the Edomites), they were called brothers of the Jews in the Old Testament [which jews accept.]

Similarly, the arabs are (far) cousins of the Jews, they can then also be called as 'brothers' because the Edomites were called 'brothers' although they too are cousins.

Due to the arabs and Edomites being cousins of the Jews - they both can be referred to as brothers of the Jews according to the Old Testament.


So when it is mentioned as 'among their brethren', the arabs can also be referred to as people who could receive the message.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) is 'arab, a direct descendant of Prophet Ibrahim [Abraham], - he is the final Prophet of God, and he fulfills that Prophecy since he is the most similar to Moses.

And Allah knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Yes, regards, but I really do think that you have the reading into reversed.

Moses didn't, as you suggest, lead his people out of paganism. God had already called Abraham out of that centuries before.

The Jews would return to many aspects of paganism, remember the golden calf? Their religion was influenced a great deal by their stay in Egypt during the time of Prophet Joseph, up till the time of Moses. Since the Egyptians were pagans, worshiping the Pharaohs etc. it isn't surprising that the Jews would follow in that, and this is proven through what they did by worshiping the golden calf.

Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, did as much to deliver God's word and lead the Jews out of the Babylonian Exile and back to Israel as did Moses and Joshua in leading them out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. Elijah was a strong voice in having the people return to God from paganism, standing up to the King and Queen in the face of adverse persecution. There are just so many who were like Moses in this regard that the attribution of it to Muhammad is too big of a stretch to make.

Did these Prophets bring a totally new law to their people? No they never, Muhammad (peace be upon him) did. Therefore, according to that claim - Muhammad (peace be upon him) is one step ahead - in similarity to Moses - of them Prophets which you mention.

I agreed with you that one could see Arabs and Jews as brethern. But unless Muhammad also came to lead the Jews, and not just Arabs, then you miss the pronoun "for you" (i.e. for the nation of Israel)

part that is back in verse 15. In fact, in the context of the larger passage, it is about entry into the new land that Israel is moving into.

We as Muslims do not doubt that Muhammad (peace be upon him) came for the 'arabs, we also do not doubt that he came for the Jews.

Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth.
There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

[Qur'an 7: 158]

It is clear in that verse that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a Messenger to all of mankind, with no exception - so it includes Jews. Therefore it doesn't really make a difference whether Allah sends a Prophet, no matter what race he belongs to - so long as he conveys the message clearly.

Joshua best fits the role set forth as one to replace Moses.

Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

Let's take a look then to see if it really can be Joshua;

Devarim 33:1-2 And this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the children of Israel [just] before his death.

He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them


This verse speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.


Where is paran?

Genesis 21:21 21. And he dwelt in the desert of Paran, and his mother took for him a wife from the land of Egypt.
This is talking about Prophet Ishmael whom we know was sent to Mecca with his mother. Therefore, the wilderness of Pran is Arabia, and specifically Mecca.


Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar?

According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

So if we analyze this, it makes it more clear that Joshua could not be the expected Prophet.

We can examine Joshua and see if he fits the Prophecy.


Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws. He only followed the laws of Prophet Moses.

Judaism holds Yusha several degrees below Prophet Moses in significance and status. Prophet Muhammad is the only one who made such a revolution like Prophet Moses.


And finally, Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesied in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

http://www.islamicboard.com/8654-post14.html

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

It can refer to the 'arabs, aswell as to the rest of humanity - more specifically to the arabs in that sense.

In the early Prophethood of the Muhammad (peace be upon him) - he warned the closest of kin, then to the people of his town - Makkah, then to the surrounding towns i.e. Al-Taa'if etc. Then he made Hijrah to Madinah, and called the people to Islam from there, including the Jews & Christians. Then to the rulers, of Abysinnia [ethiopia], the rulers of Byzantine [Romans], and Persia [Sassanids], the governor of the Egyptian Coptics etc.


He died before Islam spread to the other nations at a mass scale, therefore it's clear that throughout his life - he never left the Arabian Peninsula (except a little while before his Prophethood for his business trips for his wife Khadija.) So, it's clear that he (peace be upon him) did come for all of humanity, however, his companions spread the message to the rest of humanity.

So he commanded his companions all that was conveyed to him by Allah. The words which he said were the Qur'an - the speech of Allah, as that Prophecy states.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -

It can refer to the 'arabs, aswell as to the rest of humanity - more specifically to the arabs in that sense.

No, I don't think the term "them" from Deuteronomy 18:18 can refer to anyone other than the very group accompanying Moses. While the term "brothers" might refer to a large number of possibilities, including Arabs, the term "them" cannot in this instance.

All that you say about Muhammad may be true, but it is also irrelevant to the interpretation of that term. Let's read it in context:

Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

In verse 18 God says, "I will raise up for them...." Them who? One must look back to see the antecedent to the pronoun. The antecedent is the pronoun "they" from the previous sentence. Who is this "they"? Well one hint is that "they" had previously said something which God saw as good. And continuing to look back for the antecedent to "they", we find that "they" refers to the assembly gathered at Horeb. It refers to the people who were afraid to face God themselves and were glad for Moses to do so as their representative. (See Exodus 20:18-21 and Deuteronomy 5:5 & 27-28, for more of the story of Moses and the people at Mount Sinai, for I believe Horeb and Sinai are one and the same place.)

Verses 14 and 15 both make use of the pronoun "you": "The nations you will dispossess..." and "God will raise up for you a prophet..." You who? Well, it is the same "you" as in verse 16: "this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly...." So, this whole passage is speaking of one group of people, it speaks of those who had assembled with Moses at Horeb when he went up the mountain to speak with God in their stead. It refers to those who are traveling with Moses and will eventually dispossess other nations in the land God "is giving [them]" (verse 9). Hence any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Muhammad lived more than a thousand years later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him. It matters not if there were to be another like Moses who would eventually lead a group of Jews out of slavery in Egypt to possess the promised land a second time, and be given a set of stone tablets on which the Law had been written by the hand of God, unless he was leading that particular group of Jews who were with Moses, he still would not fit the description of a prophet raised up for "you" who are present at the time of this prophecy.

If it need not be a prophet to that particular group of people, then it could be any of a dozen other possible alternatives. You may wish to include Muhammad in that list, but there would be no way to exclude any other prophet for all prophets have the function of speaking forth the words that God puts in their mouths. And in that way all prophets are like Moses. It is not required to be a law-giver, to remind people that Yahweh was their God, or to lead an exodus to be like Moses, though others did indeed do some of those things. It is enough to be a prophet to be like Moses.

Though if you are looking to Moses as a typology for that future prophet, then I present to you Peter's interpretation of that passage:

Acts 3
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance [killing Jesus], as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

24"Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.' 26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Peter's interpretation of that passage:
Acts 3
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

well, why you claim that it is Peter's interpretation of that passage? aren-t you convinced that what his(the inspired) claims to be true,and Jesus is the one who fulfilled it?

here you your position is weakened more and more

if according to you the original prophecy could be applied to a list of prophets, how on earth the writer of acts argues that it is specific to Jesus?


To be continued

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

In verse 18 God says, "I will raise up for them...." Them who? One must look back to see the antecedent to the pronoun. The antecedent is the pronoun "they" from the previous sentence. Who is this "they"? Well one hint is that "they" had previously said something which God saw as good. And continuing to look back for the antecedent to "they", we find that "they" refers to the assembly gathered at Horeb. It refers to the people who were afraid to face God themselves and were glad for Moses to do so as their representative.

Verses 14 and 15 both make use of the pronoun "you": "The nations you will dispossess..." and "God will raise up for you a prophet..." You who? Well, it is the same "you" as in verse 16: "this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly...." So, this whole passage is speaking of one group of people, it speaks of those who had assembled with Moses at Horeb when he went up the mountain to speak with God in their stead. It refers to those who are traveling with Moses and will eventually dispossess other nations in the land God "is giving [them]" (verse 9). Hence any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Muhammad lived more than a thousand years later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him. It matters not if there were to be another like Moses who would eventually lead a group of Jews out of slavery in Egypt to possess the promised land a second time, and be given a set of stone tablets on which the Law had been written by the hand of God, unless he was leading that particular group of Jews who were with Moses, he still would not fit the description of a prophet raised up for "you" who are present at the time of this prophecy.

If it need not be a prophet to that particular group of people, then it could be any of a dozen other possible alternatives. You may wish to include Muhammad in that list, but there would be no way to exclude any other prophet for all prophets have the function of speaking forth the words that God puts in their mouths. And in that way all prophets are like Moses. It is not required to be a law-giver, to remind people that Yahweh was their God, or to lead an exodus to be like Moses, though others did indeed do some of those things. It is enough to be a prophet to be like Moses.
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Ladies&Gentlemen

pay attention please

Seeker is going to refute the inspired writer of Acts,in a unique approach

Acts 3
even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.



Seeker s Refutation :

In verse 18 God says, "I will raise up for them...." Them who? One must look back to see the antecedent to the pronoun. The antecedent is the pronoun "they" from the previous sentence. Who is this "they"? Well one hint is that "they" had previously said something which God saw as good. And continuing to look back for the antecedent to "they", we find that "they" refers to the assembly gathered at Horeb. It refers to the people who were afraid to face God themselves and were glad for Moses to do so as their representative.

Verses 14 and 15 both make use of the pronoun "you": "The nations you will dispossess..." and "God will raise up for you a prophet..." You who? Well, it is the same "you" as in verse 16: "this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly...." So, this whole passage is speaking of one group of people, it speaks of those who had assembled with Moses at Horeb when he went up the mountain to speak with God in their stead. It refers to those who are traveling with Moses and will eventually dispossess other nations in the land God "is giving [them]" (verse 9). Hence any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Jesus lived centures later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him. It matters not if there were to be another like Moses who would eventually lead a group of Jews out of slavery in Egypt to possess the promised land a second time, and be given a set of stone tablets on which the Law had been written by the hand of God, unless he was leading that particular group of Jews who were with Moses, he still would not fit the description of a prophet raised up for "you" who are present at the time of this prophecy.

If it need not be a prophet to that particular group of people, then it could be any of a dozen other possible alternatives. You may wish to include Jesus in that list, but there would be no way to exclude any other prophet for all prophets have the function of speaking forth the words that God puts in their mouths. And in that way all prophets are like Moses.

Grace Seeker, this is quite clear - a quote from my earlier post;

There is another point which is being briefly discussed here. Some Jews assert that the prophecy relates to and is fulfilled in the person of Joshua. But the wording of the prophecy and the context do not permit it. Joshua was the contemporary of and junior to Moses. Moses himself had nominated him as his successor under the instruction of the Lord. He was a disciple, attendant, and successor of Moses and not an independent prophet himself. No "Law" was revealed unto him. So he was in no way 'like unto Moses'. The words of the prophecy, 'The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy Brethren, like unto me;' clearly denote that they relate to some future event, whereas Joshua physically existed there when this prophecy was uttered. The book of Malachi is the last of the Minor Prophets and of the OT. It records the prophecy uttered by the Lord in the following words [which shows that the messenger of the covenant was yet to come by his time, and, as such, Joshua could not have been this "a prophet"

http://www.islamicboard.com/12176-post23.html (The Sign of Muhammad in Deuteronomy)

And to continue:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come[29] to his temple[30], even the messenger of the covenant [stress added] whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.[31]


As to the date of Malachi, 'McKenzie' observes:

The book is dated by the critics after the rebuilding of the temple in 516 BC, during the Persian period and before the reforms of Nehemiah and Ezta, i.e., before 432 BC.[32]

The recording of the prophecy regarding 'the messenger of the covenant' in it shows that till 432 BC the Israelites were still waiting for him and he was yet to come.


Then there is the epilogue of the book of Deuteronomy which reads,

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.[33]



It is probable that this epilogue might have been written by Ezra eight to nine hundred years after Moses. So the prophecy remained unfulfilled till 8-9 centuries after Moses. It is also probable that it might have been written by some other redactor of the book when the Torah and some other books of the Bible were first compiled in written form about five hundred years after Moses. It means that the prophecy remained unfulfilled for not less than 500 years after Moses. It does not mean that it was fulfilled after it. Nobody ever claimed to be 'the messenger of the covenant' or fulfilled its pre-requisites at any time after Moses. Almost every scholar of the Bible understands that it stood unfulfilled even after the time of Jesus Christ. The Bible Knowledge Commentary observes,

During the first century A.D. the official leaders of Judaism were still looking for the fulfillment of Moses' prediction (cf. John I: 21).[34]

That it remained unfulfilled during the time of Jesus Christ and the Jews were still waiting for the coming of this prophet, can be ascertained from the following passage of the Gospel According To John:

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet [stress added]? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (...). And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?[35]

It has become clear from the study undertaken above that this 'Prophet like unto Moses' had not been raised up till the time of Jesus Christ.


[29] The actual Hebrew word used for this 'come' is avb (a?v?b), which can be pronounced as bow'. According to Strong's 'A Concise Dictionary of the words in the Hebrew Bible', p. 19, entry No. 935 it means: "to go or come (in a wide variety of applications):-abide, befall, beseige, go (down, in, to war), [in-]vade, lead." It shows that 'the messenger of the covenant (it may be noted here that Jesus never claimed for himself to be the messenger of the covenant)' 'shall suddenly go down to war, besiege, and invade his temple'. It is a true and exact picture of the Prophet of Islam's conquest of Makkah'. No other prophet ever 'came so triumphantly and suddenly to his temple' as did the prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) come.

[30] How clearly and unequivocally came this prophecy true in the person of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh)! He secretly came upon his Temple, Ka'bah, in the city of Makkah, at the time of its conquest, so that it be conquered without any battle and bloodshed. The Makkans came to know about the arrival of Muhammad at the head of an army of ten thousand holy ones only when he had reached the gate of the city and the city was taken without any bloodshed. This is what Malachi had said, 'shall suddenly come to his temple.'

[31] KJV, Malachi III: 1, p. 745.
[32] J.L. McKenzie, DB, Geoffrey Chapman, London, 1984, p. 537.
[33] KJV, Deu. XXXIV: 10 p. 195.
[34] The B Knowledge C, Ed John F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, SP Publications, Inc., Weaton, Illinois, 3rd Ed, 1986, p. 297.
[35] KJV, John, I: 19-25, p. 82.


The Sign of Muhammad in Deuteronomy

It's so obvious that John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya) came later, much later than Prophet Moses. Yet the Jews were still questioning him on whether he was the Messiah [Christ - Jesus son of Mary], or 'that Prophet' - 'that Prophet' who matches Moses the most is undoubtedly Muhammad (peace be upon him.)



Please don't praise me for the research, the praise is for Allah. I got it from bro Ansar by the way :rolleyes: