Hey! I was recently confronted with the claim that when the Quran calls us to watch out for the disbelievers and that they may mislead us, it is an ad hominem fallacy. Can any of you help me clarify this?
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
Tell me what use does the Quran have for an atheist to be the crux of his/her argument?
Shouldn't you be discussing things from a mutual ground?
You'd have to establish that there is a God before you can discuss the content of his books and in what contexts they are used?...
It is as if you get a person who accuses you of not treating his son's chronic sinusitis, claims that you are discriminating against him because he is an atheist or that you must have an inadequate education to not be able to help them out, when his son in fact has primary ciliary dyskinesia and his lungs can't expell infections or mucus plugs.
His son is already born with an inherited syndrome, how are you responsible for the reoccurring maladies?
I am going to level with you, you are simply wasting your time on atheists, no sooner will you find this out on your own, but I am merely trying to save you wasted time. You don't have to defend your beliefs to people who can't defend theirs..
these are two paralleles which shall never intersect.. it is time you should be focusing on you.. because Allah has indeed warned us against vain discourse...
Yesterday I got a very hateful PM from a member here, who used every profanity on earth to mock me, every member, the mods and in closure wished me death, he is still around, I can't imagine why? but it is ok, a little contrast is always great.. I am pretty sure he wanted to provoke a response because of his own sense of inadequacy, and inferiority.. he hangs around a particular sphere, do you really think it wise to descend down to word play with degenerates who ultimately have one purpose in mind, which is to mock you and your beliefs...
Allah has already told you in his noble book, be patient and keep steadfast.. offer da3wa to those who seek it and those who deserve it. Otherwise and from my heart I say this, just blow 'em a sarcastic kiss, shrug your shoulders and be on your merry way
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Hey! I was recently confronted with the claim that when the Quran calls us to watch out for the disbelievers and that they may mislead us, it is an ad hominem fallacy. Can any of you help me clarify this?
It isn't an ad hominem fallacy, it is merely a warning. If it said something like "don't believe the disbelievers when they tell you such-and-such because they always lie" it would be an ad hominem fallacy. Assuming, of course, that they don't always lie!
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Tell me what use does the Quran have for an atheist to be the crux of his/her argument?
Shouldn't you be discussing things from a mutual ground?
You'd have to establish that there is a God before you can discuss the content of his books and in what contexts they are used?...
I am going to level with you, you are simply wasting your time on atheists, no sooner will you find this out on your own, but I am merely trying to save you wasted time. You don't have to defend your beliefs to people who can't defend theirs..
these are two paralleles which shall never intersect.. it is time you should be focusing on you.. because Allah has indeed warned us against vain discourse...
Allah has already told you in his noble book, be patient and keep steadfast.. offer da3wa to those who seek it and those who deserve it.
excellet advice!
antikatate,
if i remember right you said somewhere else that you have only recently become religious. so i assume you are just at the beginning of a lifetime of learning. learn your religion - don't waste time on refutations.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
excellet advice!
antikatate,
if i remember right you said somewhere else that you have only recently become religious. so i assume you are just at the beginning of a lifetime of learning. learn your religion - don't waste time on refutations.
Don't waste time on arguing with people you will never convince,certainly. Refutations,though, work both ways. Whatever your religion, if you are aware of and understand points raised by others but can refute them to your own satisfaction, your faith is strengthened, not weakened, and that isn't a waste of time! In other words, look upon those pesky atheists as offering you a beneficial opportunity.
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
I'm sorry, but the attitude of a specific user here infuriates me.
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Tell me what use does the Quran have for an atheist to be the crux of his/her argument?
I note you immediately presume that the person the original poster is arguing with is an Atheist. Why is this?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am going to level with you, you are simply wasting your time on atheists, no sooner will you find this out on your own, but I am merely trying to save you wasted time. You don't have to defend your beliefs to people who can't defend theirs..
Your tirade goes on. I honestly find your constant bigotry towards Atheists and Atheism hideous and an insult to the otherwise good discussion that can be found on this forum. I don't care if this is not the topic of this thread, I do not at all think it is at all fair for a single user be allowed to constantly make out Atheists to be rock bottom of humanity.
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Yesterday I got a very hateful PM from a member here, who used every profanity on earth to mock me, every member, the mods and in closure wished me death, he is still around, I can't imagine why? but it is ok, a little contrast is always great.. I am pretty sure he wanted to provoke a response because of his own sense of inadequacy, and inferiority.. he hangs around a particular sphere, do you really think it wise to descend down to word play with degenerates who ultimately have one purpose in mind, which is to mock you and your beliefs...
Are you defining Atheists as degenerates or the particular user who sent you that private message?
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I'm sorry, but the attitude of a specific user here infuriates me.
I note you immediately presume that the person the original poster is arguing with is an Atheist. Why is this?
that is what a disbeliever is by definition (an atheist)!
Your tirade goes on. I honestly find your constant bigotry towards Atheists and Atheism hideous and an insult to the otherwise good discussion that can be found on this forum. I don't care if this is not the topic of this thread, I do not at all think it is at all fair for a single user be allowed to constantly make out Atheists to be rock bottom of humanity.
an atheist who mocks and challenges will only be met with the same!
Are you defining Atheists as degenerates or the particular user who sent you that private message?
those who are, are! and those who aren't aren't!
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
that is what a disbeliever is by definition (an atheist)!
How do you know an Atheist raised the issue in the first post though? It does not matter if it addresses Atheists. Why could a Christian not have raised it?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
an atheist who mocks and challenges will only be met with the same!
Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
those who are, are! and those who aren't aren't!
I don't know what this means. You referred to a group of people as 'degenerates'. Who was that group? Atheists or the type of people that threaten?
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
How do you know an Atheist raised the issue in the first post though? It does not matter if it addresses Atheists. Why could a Christian not have raised it?
Again, that is what a disbeliever is by definition 'Someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)' check it out in the dictionary if in doubt!
Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?
I am not sure why you have even insuinated yourself into this post? did someone beckon you or you are just looking to get a rise out of me?
I don't know what this means. You referred to a group of people as 'degenerates'. Who was that group? Atheists or the type of people that threaten?
Some atheists are definite degenerates!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
A disbeliever can be anyone who disbelieves in something. If I disbelieve in Thor, then I am a disbeliever in Thor.
Irrespectively, I know how you define disbeliever - but how do you the person who raised this criticism of the Quran was in fact - not a Christian?
That begs the question.. is thor all you don't believe in? or does that also aply to Akal Purakh, Ek Onkar, Waheguru, Bhao Khandan, Dukh Bhanjno, Bhagat, Vachhal, Hari, Govinda, Bhagavan? The meaning of disbeliever is quite defined.. we are not going to dance around in circles to conform to your needs as fits a particular post!... if it were a christian or a Jew the OP would have mentioned christian or jew or as we Muslims define them (people of the book)!
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I happened to visit the Refutations and saw this. No-one beckoned me.
fascinating.. is this a cry for help?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Irrespectively, you didn't answer the question: Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?
This seems to me in the ball park of paranoid schizophrenia or extreme narcissism.. which is it? are you the only atheist here, are you the atheist addressing the OP? are you the atheist PMing me with vile language? or you just in need of some attention?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Who were you referring to when you said 'degenerates'?
Atheists who have earned it!
with that said, if you don't like it here, don't like the members here, don't like the views shared here, then don't be a member here..
are we done?
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by Heera Singh
I have been told that a 'disbeliever' is one who doesn't believe in the Islamic way of life - is that wrong? (btw, I was told this by a muslim friend)
or is the 'right' definition of 'disbeliever' one that doesn't believe in God?
Just curious, for my own knowledge...
A kaffir literally means a disbeliever someone who refuses to believe (in a divinity).. I think what your friend is referring to is a Moshrik and not a kaffir, but it is best you ask him what he meant.
You may certainly stick the word 'disbeliever' in the dictionary and see what comes up.. whatever subjective views people hold as to what it actually denotes is a matter different all together..
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
Actually as far as I know anyone who is not a Muslim is a disbelieve, regardless of whether they are atheist r not. I have never heard the word disbeliever (kafir) be used on for atheists.
Also a mushrik (or a moshrik as our sister spelled it), is type of disbeliever who associates others with God. I have seen it translated directly as "associator".
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
I disagree..
the word kaffir is clearely defined even in the Arabic dictionary
atheist noun person who disbelieves in God's existence Kaffir.. you can see it in Arabic here
جَاحِد , دَهْرِيّ , زِنْدِيق , كافِر , كَفَّار , كَفُور , مُلْحِد Arabic to English and English to Arabic Arabic - English
كافِر صـــــفـــــــة زِنْدِيق kaffir
godless , disbeliever , irreligious , infidel , heretic , atheist , apostate , miscreant , unbeliever
the meaning is clear.. doesn't say christian/jew/ sikh or whatever on the account they all believe in God!
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
If that is the case, why does the Quran say
Ya ayyo hal kafiron, la a3bido ma ta3bidoon
Translation: O, you who disbelieve, I do not worship what you worship.
If kafir means atheist, then atheists do not worship, but the verse is saying that these kafirs are worshipping... therefore the meaning of kafir can't be limited to atheists only.
Re: Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
If that is the case, why does the Quran say
Ya ayyo hal kafiron, la a3bido ma ta3bidoon
Translation: O, you who disbelieve, I do not worship what you worship.
If kafir means atheist, then atheists do not worship, but the verse is saying that these kafirs are worshipping... therefore the meaning of kafir can't be limited to atheists only.
You are probably right, I was just thinking about it before reading your latest... but the Quran also addresses 'Ahel ilkitab'--people of the book on multitudes of occasions..
perhaps kaffirs are those who deny his books and messengers (the divine books) Sikhs/hindues shintus/buddhists/atheists but I highly doubt ahel ilkitab are kaffirs.. it just doesn't go with the word in Arabic.. the actual meaning of the world means someone who disbelieves!!!
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