The western non-Muslim – both historians and intellectuals are at loss to prove that Islam was spread - not by PEACEFUL MEANS but by SWORD.
Allow me to expose this Jewish Myth in detail:
Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah. Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator.
Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.
The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" -: "History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."
Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the Christian and Jew SERFS (Slaves) to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out over five million Muslims and Jews. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the Adhan.
Muslims were the lords of Arabia for a long time. For a few century the British and the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 20 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.
Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"
The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword?
Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."
Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam - Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?
What happened is accepted fact, I'm surprised you didn't know.
Internet is a starting point, use every resource possible from books to visiting the indian subcontinent, museums, historical sites, scripts from that time period. I'm sure it will all point toward the same conclusion
I'm not denying it happened to a certain extent with some Gurus, but generally it didn't happen. Logic will tell you. Its impossible to forrce people to convert, when your not there they'll practice what they want. And muslims have full conviction in their religion. Not all practice it but nearly all believe. No matter how non-practicing one is, they will never believe you would need to force a persoan to convert. They honestly believe its the truth
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
Problem is Islam was in India long before Sikhism started. So how was it spreading then. And it kept spredaing peacefully even after Sikhism came, even today there are thousands of reverts in India.
Guys think logically, Islam spread peacefully in Saudi Arabia, accross other Arab countries, across Malaysia and Indonesia, and in the last century has continued to spread peacefully, but in India it suddenly decided to use force?? Also, muslims as you would now fully believe in their faith, they don't think you would need to force anyone to convert to islam. They fully believe its the truth. Guys think about it
Remember, what a few Moghal rulers did does not represent the way it spread the rest of the time
I'm not asking you to believe me, what I am stating is not to have a swipe at Islam but mere fact. You can find out for yourself if you don't believe me.
There may have been some Muslims before Guru Nanak Dev Ji's times in India without doubt. But the bulk of forced conversions began with Babar and other rulars such as Aurangzeb and many people were converted out of fear.
Again you may not trust me or the internet, fair play but do the research for yourself.
I'm not denying it happened to a certain extent with some Gurus, but generally it didn't happen. Logic will tell you. Its impossible to forrce people to convert, when your not there they'll practice what they want. And muslims have full conviction in their religion. Not all practice it but nearly all believe. No matter how non-practicing one is, they will never believe you would need to force a persoan to convert. They honestly believe its the truth
I hope you actually read this, and what has logic got to do with it when someones threatning you with death what decision are you gonna make, these preachers who tell you these stories are the mother of all propaganda.
even the decendents of emperor jehangir (who along side chandu (a brahmin hindu) had Guru Sahib Ji martyred) went to darbar sahib (golden temple) afew years back to ask for forgiviness. because their family had recieved nuthing but bad luck and they believed that was the reason why-they kept there islamic values but went to darbar sahib to ask forgivness. i aint got evidence of this offhand, but if anybody wants, im sure i can dis up the article somewhere.
mass forced conversions did take place. any person can find out with alittle research.
even the decendents of emperor jehangir (who along side chandu (a brahmin hindu) had Guru Sahib Ji martyred) went to darbar sahib (golden temple) afew years back to ask for forgiviness. because their family had recieved nuthing but bad luck and they believed that was the reason why-they kept there islamic values but went to darbar sahib to ask forgivness. i aint got evidence of this offhand, but if anybody wants, im sure i can dis up the article somewhere.
mass forced conversions did take place. any person can find out with alittle research.
Problem is Islam was in India long before Sikhism started. So how was it spreading then. And it kept spredaing peacefully even after Sikhism came, even today there are thousands of reverts in India.
Guys think logically, Islam spread peacefully in Saudi Arabia, accross other Arab countries, across Malaysia and Indonesia, and in the last century has continued to spread peacefully, but in India it suddenly decided to use force?? Also, muslims as you would now fully believe in their faith, they don't think you would need to force anyone to convert to islam. They fully believe its the truth. Guys think about it
Remember, what a few Moghal rulers did does not represent the way it spread the rest of the time
Islam was spread by the sword aswell since SOME moghul emperors were giving the natives the choices between death or Islam, India has a huge population and the muslim population is fairly large too the reason why more Indians weret forced to covert was because only some emperors used such policies and there was resistance being put up. There are also clear facts that show that thousands of Hindu women were taken from India and sold off as wives in Afghanistan. Therefore a FEW moghul emperors had a huge effect infact western historians believe that during the moghul rule in India upto 80 million Hindus and other non-muslims were killed.
Dhillon, you can't prove Islam was spread by the sword.
Look at Saudi arabia during the prophets time, everyone converted. At the conquest of Mecca everyone was forgiven, and gradually they all converted. No force!
Indonesia and malaysia. Lets take Indonesia as an example, FOUR muslims went to Indonesia, and the whole country converted through their actions and morals, No Force!
Still 14 million christians in saudi arabia, No Force!
I hope its clear now. Like i said, i'm sure some rulers did try to do it. But it wouldn't have made a difference. islam is Haq, people would still have converted. Go india today and see how many Hindus are converting by the works of people like Dr Zakir Naik.
Before Sikhism came, people were converting. Before the Moghul rulers people were converting. After Sikhism, where it apparently stopped the forced conversions, peoople have continued to revert. Either Sikhism didn't do a good job, or its peaceful conversions, you decide
In fear of getting warnings, we should stay on topic, so i request if mods can move this to the other thread, and if you have any more allegations against islam discuss it there
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
Not impressed. you don't sound funny. People cannot be forced to follow Islam if they did not believe in it from their hearts. You can't be a Muslim if you don't truly believe so there wouldn't have been any point in supposedly making someone into a Muslim. It just does'nt work that way.
You siad that, so i posted revelavant proofs showing how islam was not spread by the sword. Your more illogical than i thoight if you think Islam was spread by the sword. But i suppose if thats what makes you feel better and keeps your mind at ease that Islam can't get real conversions then so be it
illogical? - the forced conversion were in india you started telling me about other countries, what does that have to do with anything, if you believe that islam was not spread by the sword in india you need to prove this to me not derail the debate by taliking about other countries thats irrelevant, do you even know what logic means, youve heard ne person go on about me being illogical and thats youre only weapon now, i suggest you get over it
illogical? - the forced conversion were in india you started telling me about other countries, what does that have to do with anything, if you believe that islam was not spread by the sword in india you need to prove this to me not derail the debate by taliking about other countries thats irrelevant, do you even know what logic means, youve heard ne person go on about me being illogical and thats youre only weapon now, i suggest you get over it
isdhillon
Bro listen. if islam spread peacefully everywhere else, then is it so hard to believe the same happened in the indian subcontinent. it doesn't matter, just look today. Theres loads of converts there now. Thats living proof of peaceful conversions. Like i said before, you can't force someone to convert. If someone said they'll convert in fear of not living, they then will return to their original belief when noone is around
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
Not impressed. you don't sound funny. People cannot be forced to follow Islam if they did not believe in it from their hearts. You can't be a Muslim if you don't truly believe so there wouldn't have been any point in supposedly making someone into a Muslim. It just does'nt work that way.[/QUOTE]
the first generation accept islam cos they are otherwise going to get killed, then cos they cant accept the fact that they were cowards (to protect their ego) they then bring theire children up in islam and the children dont know their parents were cowards, so they as you have suggested accept islam in their hearts, this is how it works, in future dont just skim the surface actually look at the whole facts, there are many sikhs who were focfully converted to islam during partition and their children have been brainwashed about their infidel past. But at the same time their are many and i would know cos my mum works for citizens advice bureau who have changed their name and have come back to the true path of sikhi and their parents deep in their hearts would like to come back to but they have too many obligation so make a sacrifice for their duty.
Have a nice day,:thankyou:
ISDhillon
ps remember this was not supposed to turn into a debate about conversions.
Bro listen. if islam spread peacefully everywhere else, then is it so hard to believe the same happened in the indian subcontinent. it doesn't matter, just look today. Theres loads of converts there now. Thats living proof of peaceful conversions. Like i said before, you can't force someone to convert. If someone said they'll convert in fear of not living, they then will return to their original belief when noone is around
is this logical? lol you now want me to logically conclude that isalm may have been spread in some places (even though i dont believe that either) peacefully then it must have done the same in india, the problem is we have shown through an abundance of proof that it wasnt and even god could no longer bear the tyranny so started another religion, the proof is so stark but you keep brininging in other issues you better make sure you never call me illogical again
islam was (and is) primaliry a peace loving religion.
but it is a fact that rulers ahve used the sword (and other means) to persuade on-muslims to convert.
Just to name afew well knows examples:
Sri guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji was beheadded for his steadfast beleaf..
Bhai Mati Das Sahib was swordes in half starting from his head for not chaning hjis belief
Bhai Sati Das Sahib was wrapped in cotton and burnt alive
and Bhai Dyala Das Sahib was beaten and boiled alive.
The 2 youngest martyres in history were the 2 brave sons of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were walled alive for their steadfast in Sikhism. Emperor Aurungzeb offred the young boys many riches on the condiditon of their conversion. The children (after being tought by their grandmother) remained steadfast in their faith thus becoming the youngest martyrs ever in history.
the only option in these days was death ot islam.
Hundreds of thousands of incidents like these have taken place in India at the hands of mughal rulkers.
im not saying all muslims are tyrants, and im not saying every1 who converted did it out of fear, but yes forced conversions did happen, had have been happeningrecentry in the uk aswell (and probably in other aprts of the world aswell).
People cannot be forced to follow Islam if they did not believe in it from their hearts.
Ur forgetting the biggest and most important point here. If people were "forced" in wateva way to accept islam even tho they didnt have the real conviction in their hearts, they wud still bring their children up as muslims, if not properly but just call them muslims, then their children wud find out more about islam n practice a little then the next generation wud practice more n more n so on and so on. so even if ppl didnt really believe in Allah swt and his messanger, they wud still end up having kids that wud be muslim.
U need a gud chat with shaykh khalid yasin. Ive got this brilliant video of this brother who was hindu and became muslim n hes telling his reversion story, its wikid, i think if a sikh watched it, it wud also be of benefit ----
Last edited by Muhammad; 05-19-2006 at 03:44 PM.
Reason: inapppriate comment
forced conversions have and do happen. people have been forced to denounce their faith. people have been forced to wear hijabs / jalbabs / nikkabs /burka's against their will. people have been kidnappeed and forced to live in islamic countries and to live by their ways.
if your forced into another's strict islamic family, how can u continue with your own faith?.... whilst wearing a burka... which may be against your beliefs...
2 mistakes in my previous post... was ment to be :
the only option in these days was death OR islam.... and
Guru Tegh Bahadur died not for his faith, but in protection of the Hindu faith (a faith which Guru Ji Himself did not believe in)...
We firmly believe in freedom of faith and freedom of belief and the brotherhood of all mankind.
islam was (and is) primaliry a peace loving religion.
but it is a fact that rulers ahve used the sword (and other means) to persuade on-muslims to convert.
Just to name afew well knows examples:
Sri guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji was beheadded for his steadfast beleaf..
Bhai Mati Das Sahib was swordes in half starting from his head for not chaning hjis belief
Bhai Sati Das Sahib was wrapped in cotton and burnt alive
and Bhai Dyala Das Sahib was beaten and boiled alive.
The 2 youngest martyres in history were the 2 brave sons of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were walled alive for their steadfast in Sikhism. Emperor Aurungzeb offred the young boys many riches on the condiditon of their conversion. The children (after being tought by their grandmother) remained steadfast in their faith thus becoming the youngest martyrs ever in history.
the only option in these days was death ot islam.
Hundreds of thousands of incidents like these have taken place in India at the hands of mughal rulkers.
im not saying all muslims are tyrants, and im not saying every1 who converted did it out of fear, but yes forced conversions did happen, had have been happeningrecentry in the uk aswell (and probably in other aprts of the world aswell).
Well said bro. I agree iwth what you've said. i knwo the Moghuls tried to convert people by force. But Islam was around well before the Moghuls came into power (correct me if i'm wrong) and its continued to convert after the loss of their rule.
By the way what forced conversions have been happening in the UK, i find that hard to believe that is unlilkely to have happened
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
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Also, muslims as you would now fully believe in their faith, they don't think you would need to force anyone to convert to islam. They fully believe its the truth. Guys think about it
You can't be a Muslim if you don't truly believe so there wouldn't have been any point in supposedly making someone into a Muslim. It just does'nt work that way.
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