Insh'Allah, we can examine the differences pertaining to the narratives and stories in the different scriptures.
Insh'Allah, we can examine the differences pertaining to the narratives and stories in the different scriptures.
Howso? Seems like a fair comparison to what has happened.obviously this contradicts the Qur'anic account
That's what my hunch was before you posted the story. That's the closest one I know of right now as well.I think Korah is the equivalent
Actually no, it calls Isaac Abraham's "only one", not son.format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
"your son" He [Abraham] said to Him,“ I have two sons.” He [God] said to him,“ Your only one.” He said to Him,“ This one is the only son of his mother, and that one is the only son of his mother.” He said to him,“ Whom you love.” He said to Him,“ I love them both.” He said to him,“ Isaac.” Now why did He not disclose this to him at the beginning? In order not to confuse him suddenly, lest his mind become distracted and bewildered, and also to endear the commandment to him and to reward him for each and every expression. — [from Sanh. 89b, Gen. Rabbah 39:9, 55:7]22:2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."
because an elite Prophet of God cannot be described as a 'wild man'.format_quote Originally Posted by yoshiyahu
What do you guys think of this article:
Ishmael or Isaac?
By Ali Ataie
“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8).
Who was the real covenant child of Abraham? Obviously, the Jews and Christians stand united in their support for Isaac, the second-born of Abraham and forefather of the Children of Israel. Most Muslims, however, believe him to be Ishmael, the first-born of Abraham and forefather of the Arabs. If modern-day Trinitarian Christians whose ancestors worshipped trees and rocks can get away with being counted among the spiritual progeny of Abraham simply because Jesus descended from Isaac, then we as Muslim monotheists (believers in the oneness of God) can certainly present our case for Muhammad, a DIRECT DESCENDANT of the first-born son of Abraham (upon whom be peace).
NOTE: The intention of this article is not to discredit or insult the Holy Prophet Isaac (upon whom be peace) or any of his righteous progeny. According to Islamic law (shari’a), insulting a Prophet of God is calumny (kufr) and tantamount to a capital offense.
The Qur’an states: “And We bestowed on him (Abraham) Isaac and, as an additional gift, a grandson Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one of them. And We made them leaders, guiding men by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practice regular charity; and they constantly served Us and Us only” (Qur’an 21:72-73).
Let’s attempt to ascertain the true identity of this covenant son by closely examining the book of Genesis in the Jewish Torah.
We are told in Genesis 22:2: “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” At no time during the lifetime of Isaac (upon whom be peace) was he ever the “only son” of Abraham. Did “God” forget about Ishmael, Isaac’s brother who was fourteen years his senior?
Christians will retort that God only intended the son Abraham “loved,” the implication being that Abraham hated Ishmael. Although we can never believe such nonsense, what does the Law say about this?
In Deuteronomy 21:15-17 we read: “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, then it shall be, on the day of bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.”
Therefore, it matters not whether Abraham loved Ishmael, he IS the first-born. It was none other than the evil pen of a scribe who changed the name “Ishmael” to “Isaac” in Genesis 22:2. Truly Allah has told us: “Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places…” (Qur’an 4:46).
“But Ishmael was the illegitimate son of a bondswoman!” the Christian will shout. Tell him to consider the following passage: “Then Sarah, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his WIFE, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. So Hagar bore Abram a SON; and Abram named his SON, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram” (Genesis 16:3, 15-16).
According to the Bible, Ishmael is Abraham’s son through his wife Hagar.
Now listen to what Abraham has to say about the mother of Isaac, Sarah: “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they kill me on account of my wife. But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife” (Genesis 20:11-12).
Once again we have a breach of the book of Deuteronomy: “Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen!” (Deuteronomy 27:22).
If Abraham lived during the time of Moses, the latter would have had him stoned to death. So how can the son of Abraham’s sister be legitimate? He can’t!
Genesis 15 reveals to us two vital stipulations in the covenant between God and the chosen child of Abraham. It reads: “Then He (God) brought him (Abraham) outside and said, ‘Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.’ And he said to him, (1) ‘So shall your descendants be.’ On the same day, the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, (2) ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates’” (Genesis 15:5, 18.).
The vast majority of land between the two great rivers constitutes the Arabian desert and peninsula. This region was never conquered by the Children of Israel, but immediately upon the emergence of Muhammad and the Muslims. It was only with the appearance of the Messenger of the Covenant Muhammad (Malachi 3) that all idolatry was rooted out of these lands promised to the covenant progeny of Abraham. Jewish history demonstrates the obvious ineptness of the Children of Jacob to abolish the heathen worship of statues in Palestine and even in their very Temple!
Karen Armstrong, author of the popular book A History of God remarks: “We have seen that it took the ancient Israelites some 700 years to break with their old religious allegiances and accept monotheism, but Muhammad managed to help the Arabs achieve this difficult transition in a mere 23 years” (page 146).
At this point it is worth giving an overall breakdown of the family of Abraham the Patriarch, the true in faith (Hanifah). Abraham’s first son and covenant child was Ishmael, whom he bore through Hagar. Next, Sarah conceived a son called Isaac. Abraham took a third wife, Keturah, and had six sons with her.
Ishmael’s first born, Nebajoth, had a brother named Kedar (Genesis 25:13) and his progeny are called the Kedarites or Ishmaelites. Ishmael’s two daughters Basemath and Mahalath wed Esau, who is Edom. The Lexicon Strongs’ Concordance gives Esau the title, “the progenitor of the Arab peoples” and this to a son of Isaac! These become known as the Edomites.
From Jacob, Isaac’s other son, twelve luminaries appear with names such as Ruben, Levi, Judah, Joseph, and Benjamin. The descendants of Jacob, and not Jacob or Isaac, are dubbed the Children of Israel (Bani Isra’il). Abraham’s first born of Keturah, Midian, is described by the Strongs’ Concordance as, “progenitor of Midians or Arabians.”
Therefore these Arabs are called the Midianites. A descendant of Midian named Jethro (Shu’ayb in the Qur’an) gave his daughter Zipporah permission to marry a Levite and fugitive of Egypt named Moses. Therefore, it can be observed that the vast majority of the progeny of Abraham were and are in fact Arabs “as numerous as the stars” who intermarried and accepted the sons and daughters of Jacob as righteous servants of the Almighty.
The Sign of God’s covenant was circumcision. In Genesis 17:9, 11 God tells Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations…and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.”
In verse 26 we are told: “That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael.” So far we have been told that:
1) Ishmael is Abraham’s first-born son.
2) Hagar is Abraham’s lawfully wedded wife.
3) The covenant seed will be as numerous as the stars.
4) The covenant seed will be given the land between the Nile and Euphrates Rivers.
5) Ishmael was Abraham’s only son and seed for fourteen years.
6) Circumcision is the symbol of God’s covenant.
7) Ishmael was circumcised with his father on the same day to fulfill the covenant with the flesh of their foreskins.
NONE of the above have anything to do with Isaac!
Christians will no doubt point to verse 19 where God tells Abraham, “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.”
Why has God changed his mind? He continues: “And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation” (verse 20).
In other words: “Don’t worry about Ishmael, I’ll throw him a bone or two!” The most obvious piece of Jewish scribal deception, however, occurs in Genesis 21:
“Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him…So the child grew up and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing (playing with Isaac, REB version).
Therefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondswoman with her son; for the son of this bondswoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac’…So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away (he set the child on her shoulder, REB version).
Then she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, ‘Let me not see the death of the boy.’ So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad (God heard the child crying, REB version).
Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, ‘What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand (in your hand), for I will make him a great nation.’ Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink.” – Genesis 21:5-19.
It is very clear from the text that we are given the profile of an infant here and not that of a seventeen-year old man. In Jewish custom, a child (Isaac) is weaned after three years. This would have made Ishmael seventeen (Remember that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, Gen. 16:16, 21:5). Can you imagine a grown man sitting on Hagar’s shoulder, CRYING beneath a shrub for water, and then being LIFTED UP and FED by his mother? It is very interesting to note that although Ishmael is referenced in no less than eleven places in this passage, he is never addressed by name.
It seems as if the chronologies of these events have been deliberately manipulated in order to give the reader the impression that Ishmael was banished due to a conflict between him and Isaac. In actuality, the nameless infant would not know his younger sibling until many years later. According to Islam, Ishmael and his mother were never banished at all. Abraham was told by God to leave them in the wilderness as a sign of his faith that God would fulfill His covenant under any circumstances. This was where Ishmael grew up and continued his father's work.
According to Genesis 16:10-11, God called him “Ishmael” because He heard Hagar crying after she ran away from Sarah. This concocted story serves as a clever way for the rabbinical scribes to explain the meaning of Ishmael’s name, meaning “God heard,” while also making the point that Hagar and her son are inferior to Sarah. It is possible, however, that the child was not named until after Genesis 21:5-19 was written and “God heard” (verse 17) the infant child Ishmael crying while he and his mother settled in Baca, “the weeping valley” (Psalm 84:6; Qur’an 3:96), and not Beersheba as the Bible states. Another possibility is that God named him Ishmael because He had heard the prayer of Abraham for a son to continue his legacy. Why exactly Ishmael’s name is not mentioned in Genesis 21:5-19 remains a mystery.
We are also told in Genesis 25:9 that in the spirit of brotherhood, both sons of Abraham buried their father. From this we can also conclude that the story given in Genesis 16:10 in which God tells Hagar that she must “submit herself under Sarah’s hand,” and Ishmael is called a “wild ass of a man,” are undoubtedly forgeries penned by the Jewish rabbis and scribes in order to discredit the God-given rights of Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad -- The Messenger of God (salallau ‘alayhi wa sallam).
Source:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/2005/03...-or-isaac.html
Some notes:
But Ishmael is not the son who's decendants would be given the Covernantformat_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
"But my covenant I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this set time next year." Genesis 17:21
Sarah is Abraham's first and head wife, Hagar was a handmaid of Sarah before she was Abraham's second wife.2) Hagar is Abraham’s lawfully wedded wife.
"Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to Abram her husband to be his wife." (Genesis 16:3)
As written, the covenant was established through Isaac.3) The covenant seed will be as numerous as the stars.
I.e. Israel, through Jacob.4) The covenant seed will be given the land between the Nile and Euphrates Rivers.
That doesn't mean much when HaShem did not seek to establish his covenant through Ishmael, but he was also made into a great nation.5) Ishmael was Abraham’s only son and seed for fourteen years.
A symbol of the acceptance of the covenant, not the covenant itself.6) Circumcision is the symbol of God’s covenant.
However, The commandment of circumcision is "He who is eight days old will be circumcised among you" (Genesis 17:13). Isaac was circumcised at the proper time, and it was Isaac whom the Lord chose to establish his covenant through, who was circumcised when is irrelevent, it is a symbol of acceptance, not of who gets the covenant.7) Ishmael was circumcised with his father on the same day to fulfill the covenant with the flesh of their foreskins.
1) Why not?format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
2) You guys believe that Ishmael was a prophet?
I didn't read the whole article for one reason - when I began reading it, I noticed it was using Laws that were not yet given to say that something had to be a certain way. But how can they be required to obey laws not yet fully given to them? Ya'kov/Jacob married 2 sisters, which is against Torah law, an example that those laws were not completely required of them.
Bereishhit 21:13 But also the son of the handmaid I will make into a nation, because he is your seed.
18. Rise, pick up the lad and grasp your hand upon him, for I shall make him into a great nation.
And from before:
1) Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God's promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.
2) Genesis 17:4 reiterates God's promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.
3) In Genesis, ch. 21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become "a great nation" especially in Genesis 21:13, 18.
4) According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a "free" woman such as Sarah, Isaac's mother, or a "Bondwoman" such as Hagar, Ishmael's mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.
5) The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3. After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God's promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God's blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham's family tree was now fullfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad?
You can't use Deut. 21, as it had not yet been given.
No one is saying anythng to contradict that Ishmael's children would be made into a great nation. However, HaShem himself said to Abraham that it was through Isaac that the bearer of his covenant would be kept. They would both be great nations, but only through Isaac would the covenant be delievered and kept. Very obviously, Muhammed had his Quran, which is not the covenant as it was established through Isaac.
okay, but the principles in the law would certainly remain constant wouldn't they? Good and righteousness is timeless.format_quote Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
"God is not a man, that he should lie ; neither the son of man that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Bamidbar19:23)
Before I go any further, i'd like to know what you take the 'covenant' to mean?No one is saying anythng to contradict that Ishmael's children would be made into a great nation. However, HaShem himself said to Abraham that it was through Isaac that the bearer of his covenant would be kept.
However, the covenant, as I clarify below, is not referring to one that is universal, but one that only applies to Jews. Did noah eat Pork? Probbly. Could abraham eat Pork? also Probbably. The commandment against it had yet to be given to him and his people, thus how could he keep something that did not yet apply to him? Those commandments were news to the Jews when they were revealed, otherwise there would have been no reason to restate them.format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
In this context, specifically the Jewish laws as recieved on Sinai.Before I go any further, i'd like to know what you take the 'covenant' to mean?
How can you say that when it says so clearly in the verse:format_quote Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
In Genesis 17:9, 11 God tells Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations…and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.”
It IS a sign of God's covenant. Just like the earth is a sign of God's existence meaning:
presence of earth=presence of God
Likewise,
Presence of circumcision=Presence of God's covenant
And how do we deduce that?In this context, specifically the Jewish laws as recieved on Sinai.
But it still isn't the covenant itself.format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
But you wouldn't say that the earth IS God, now would you?Just like the earth is a sign of God's existence meaning:
presence of earth=presence of God
Ah, I was confused by your quotes from before.And how do we deduce that?
The covenant of circumcision was ment.
Gen 17
10. This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.
between Me and you those living now.
and between your seed who are destined to be born.
19. And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.
My covenant The covenant of circumcision shall be given over [only] to the seed of Isaac.
No, I agree circumcision does not =covenant, and earth does not = God.format_quote Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
BUT! As I said before...
Presence of earth= presence of God
Likewise!
Presence of cirucmcision= Presence of covenant
It becomes undeniable at this point then, that the covenant was also with Isma'il.
Btw,
Concerning your first post in response to the article, someone wrote a response to it and wanted me to give it to you....
Ali (a non-Arab who is living proof that the covenant child was Ishmael) said..
First off let me say that the present day Torah has admittedly gone through horrendous revisions and editing over the centuries. This is a fact that Jews and Christians would like to keep hidden from the general masses but your scholars spill all the beans. The oldest manuscript before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (by an Ishmaelite) dated to the 9th century CE. --- 2,400 years removed from Moses! And even with the Qumran documents there is a gap of at least 1300 years. Jer. 8:8 admits to scribal forgery in the Torah as well. The book of Esdras (outside the canon) teaches us that the Torah ceased to exist when the Jews returned from Babylon, and the Prophet Ezra had to "re-write" what he knew from memory.
Secondly, there are statements in the Torah that could only have come from the ignorant mind of mind. For example, a bat is a bird, insects have four legs, the night, day, plants, herbs, and grass were created BEFORE the sun and the moon! -- Which is impossible. Land animals were created before sea animals. And the belief in the existence of "unicorns" and "fire-breathing serpents." - No such creatures have ever existed.
Third, I think you've missed the point of the article. It DOES say the covenant child will be Isaac (Gen. 17:3), (I have also mentioned this) but if GOD made this statement He has totally FAILED in fulfilling his side of the deal! The seed of Isaac compared to Ishmael is a drop in a bucket, therefore, not numerous as the stars. The land between the two rivers constitutes mainly of the Arabian peninsula (not just the tiny strip of land called Israel), a region NEVER conquered by the Israelites. If Hagar was Abraham's second wife, as you say, it still does not matter...her son is the first-born and all rights are his (Deut. 21:15-17). Sarah is Abraham's half-sister and therefore cannot be a legitimate wife anyway. Please explain to me why is Gen 21 Ishmael is described as an infant and not as a 17 year-old man? My Jewish friend, Abraham was 86 years old and he cried unto El Shaddai for a son and "God Heard" him -- Ishmael. You said that it was irrelevant who was circumcised when, but then you say Isaac was circumcised "at the proper time." Yes he was circumcised at eight days old, so he could imitate his older brother Ishmael! -- who was circumcised with his father as soon as the command came from Adonai Elohim. Jesus and John the Baptist were also circumcised at eight days old, but you believe these two great men of God to be imposters!
In Isaiah 42, the "servant" of God mentioned is called "a COVENANT of the people, a light for the Gentiles." He is then described as someone who's law will convert the islanders (the largest Muslim country is Indonesia), the Gentiles (almost ALL Muslims are non-Jews), and the tribes of KEDAR (the Arabs).-- Almost ALL Arabs are Muslims. For all intents and purposes, Judaism stopped functioning as a religion when the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. But Islam was grown into a global phenomenon winning victory after victory in the hearts of men. It's more than obvious who the real covenant son is!
The Jewish scribes out of "jealousy and arrogance" says the Qur'an stole the birthright of Ishmael as God's covenant child and gave it to Isaac (They did it to Esau as well). However, history, geography, scripture, and reality all tell us that Ishmael was truly his covenant child and unless Jews realize this they cannot re-enter into God's good graces. Why do you think God's wrath has descended upon the Jewish people from time to time? The OLD and NEW Testaments as well as the Qur'an ALL tell us that it is because they have forsaken God's commandments and rejected His messengers.
Your greatest test is to accept an Ishmaelite Prophet as God's Chosen One. Please do not continue to fail the test.
You might be able to aruge that Ishmaelites may circumcise themselves, signifying they accept the covenant that was placed on Abraham and therefore circumcize themselves, but that by itself does not signify further revelation.format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I have little to say to such an article wishing to spread his own version of events. The fact is that God said his final covenant was specifically with Isaac. When God delivered the Torah and it's laws to the Jewish people, the children of Ishmael (and Esau) would not have accepted it. This remains true today. The kind of person you have quoted from has to believe that the Jews can't be in God's "good graces", not that that matters in any way shape or form, as it invalidates his own belief that Jews were chosen by God. God gave his covenant to the Jews on Mt. Sinai, and said it was theirs for eternity. And we maintain it today. Simply because a new nation that is foreign to Jews tells us that a new way has arisen does not make it acceptable to us.
There are things in the torah that defy understanding, but there are other things that simply do not matter as you are using modern application to rewrite history.
Why is the child of Hagar described in a way that some call infantile? She pushed him in the bushes because she thought he would die, she picked him up because God commanded her to. Would god ask something that could not be fulfilled? Abraham lived well past 100 years old, today we would think of this as some weak person who could barely walk, when Abraham was more than able to do the actions of a 30 year old. It does not say he was feable in his old age, and in fact was extremely healthy!
Isaac was not circumcised at 8 days to imitate a brother that was unknown, but because that was as God commanded. Besides, the act of circumcision is not an empowering act that gives one super human abilities to become prophets of God, or we would all be prophets. Each false prophet that has arisen after Malachi, after the end of the time of prophecy, has gone directly against God's already existing commandments. There is no reason to listen to them. Jesus came and made people to think he was God, Muhammed brought the Quran telling a story that was contradictory to all that happend. Do not approach a nation and tell them that you know their real history when they have lived it.
As for Deuteronomy, remind him that such does not apply to Abraham. You can't apply a law that had yet to exist to a previous event, nor can you apply it against the word of God. God simply did not choose Ishmael to recieve His Torah.
As well as Isaiah 42,
6. I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I made you for a people's covenant, for a light to nations.
and I formed you Heb. וְאֶצָּרְ. When I formed you (כְּשֶׁיְצַרְתִּי) , this was My thought, that you return My people to My covenant and to enlighten them.
for a light to nations Every tribe is called a nation by itself, as the matter is stated (Gen. 35:11): “A nation and a congregation of nations.”
I will simply say that Ishmael had one covenant and Isaac had a different covenant. Both became great & influential nations. Isaac's covenant eventually developed into what is now known as the Torah.
format_quote Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001Okay, well at least we agree on this so far. I'll just comment a little on some points SF2K raised.format_quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Could you clarify what you are saying here?When God delivered the Torah and it's laws to the Jewish people, the children of Ishmael (and Esau) would not have accepted it.
Well the belief is that God favuors/chooses those people who are righteous, but as soon as they leave the true path, they are no longer favoured by God.The kind of person you have quoted from has to believe that the Jews can't be in God's "good graces", not that that matters in any way shape or form, as it invalidates his own belief that Jews were chosen by God.
Let's turn to the Torah and see how it describes the attitude of the Jews:
Devarim 9:5-13
Not because of your righteousness or because of the honesty of your heart, do you come to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God drives them out from before you, and in order to establish the matter that the Lord swore to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You shall know that, not because of your righteousness, the Lord, your God, gives you this land to possess it; for you are a stiffnecked people.
Remember do not forget, how you angered the Lord, your God, in the desert; from the day that you went out of the land of Egypt, until you came to this place, you have been rebelling against the Lord.
At Horeb, you angered the Lord, and the Lord was incensed with you to destroy you.
When I ascended the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord made with you, I remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water; and the Lord gave me two stone tablets, inscribed by the finger of God, and on them was [inscribed] according to all the words that the Lord spoke with you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant.
And the Lord said to me, "Arise, descend quickly from here, for your people whom you have brought out of Egypt have become corrupt; they have quickly deviated from the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten image."
And the Lord spoke to me [further], saying, "I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people.
This is repeated throughout the Torah....
Moses told his people:
Devarim 31:29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.
And the Qur'an says:
5:78 Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress.
And the Qur'an asks:
2:75 Do you covet then that they would believe for you whereas surely a section of them has been hearing the Word of Allah, and then perverting it after they have understood it, while they know?
And Islam was not the first to accuse the Children of Israel of perverting their Sacred Texts. The charge dates back to Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah:
Yirmiyahu 23:36 You pervert the words of the living God, the Lord of Hosts, our God
And I don't think any knowledgeable Rabbi today would claim that the Tanakh has been perfectly preserved, in its original purity. I think looking at Yechezkiel 23 and similar chapters shows something that cannot be attributed to God.
This is indeed the argument of the Jews, which the Qur'an has responded to:God gave his covenant to the Jews on Mt. Sinai, and said it was theirs for eternity. And we maintain it today. Simply because a new nation that is foreign to Jews tells us that a new way has arisen does not make it acceptable to us.
2:90-91 How bad is that for which they have sold their ownselves, that they should disbelieve in that which Allâh has revealed (the Qur'ân), grudging that Allâh should reveal of His Grace unto whom He will of His slaves. So they have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers, there is disgracing torment.
And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allâh has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allâh aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?"
So the Qur'anic response to your argument is twofold. The Qur'an says that one should believe in the Qur'an, first, because it is the true message in itself, supported by independent evidence; and secondly, because it confims and corroborates and supplements the Torah, and does not detract from it.
And indeed this was the prayer of Abraham from the beginning for Prophet Isma'il:
2:127-129. And (remember) when Abraham and (his son) Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."
"Our Lord! And make us submissive unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our rites, and accept our repentance. Truly, You are the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.
"Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur'ân) and wisdom, and sanctify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."
And this is identical to what has been prophesized in the Torah:
Devarim 18:18 I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.
And the Qur'an continues with a simple question:
2:130-131. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.
When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the Universe."
I'll get to the rest of your post later, insha'Allah.
That the decendants of Esau (and Esau himself) did not care about his father's inheiritance. It didn't mean anything to him and he threw it away for some beans.format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
It was written in a midrash how other nations had been offered the laws of the torah (and rejected it for various reasons):
In this way, each nation declined, until Hashem approached the Jews: "All that the Lord has spoken we shall do!" (Ex 19.8)The medrash, as told in the Yalkut Shimoni, tells how first Hashem went to Edom and offered them the Torah. They asked, "What is written in it?" Hashem replied, "Do not murder". Edom declines because "our very substance is murder because our father, Eisav, was a murderer". Next, Hashem approaches Ammon and Moav. When they asked, "What is written in it?" Hashem replies "You may not commit adultery". They too reject the Torah, because, "our very substance is adultery because our father, Lot, was sexually immoral".
I will sum up your post here: The Jews have not always followed the law perfectly. Yes. The nation of Jews have never been one to lie about their past in that we have not always perfectly follows the laws of God. This is exactly correct. We do not always merit the blessings of God.Well the belief is that God favuors/chooses those people who are righteous, but as soon as they leave the true path, they are no longer favoured by God.
But glance to the torah. What happens on Mt. Sinai? God speaks to all of Israel (Ex. 20), they all hear him and know his existance. Moses ascends on the mountain to retrieve an inscription for 40 days, and what happens? The people of Israel (the men only) go right back to worshipping idols (Ex 33), a golden calf! Needless to say, this makes God pretty angry. They've have 1000% acceptable proof that he exists, and they still build an idol, they go to worship another God! Barely a month after having known Him!
But here's the thing: Does God then turn his back on them forever?
Amazingly, No! God is as stubborn as we are! He has made His choice! He punishes us for our mistakes, but He does not reject us for them. He accepts us in spite of them, and continues to give us the law a second time! (Ex 34)
It is the same reason we reject the christian notion of eternal hell, because it is based on the idea that one who sins is forever condemned, when this is clearly not the case.
With Judaism, it is human nature not to follow the laws that are places upon us, this is why keeping the law is important, because we actually must make an effort in following them!
Last edited by Ansar Al-'Adl; 11-19-2005 at 02:53 AM. Reason: minor fix
I never claimed that God turns His back on anyone.
The point I'm making is very simple. God's chosen people are those who obey His commandements, not any particular nation. As long as the Jews obeyed God's commandments, they were the chosen people.
But as you and I have both agreed, unfortunately humanity is often inclined to evil, and the message of Prophet Moses was rejected by a large group, and many changed their scriptures. We can no longer say that it is 100% the word of God.
But SpaceFalcon, you are 100% correct, God does not abandon anyone, nor does he blame them for sins of their ancestors. Humanity, the Jews included, was given a final chance with the final messenger before the world would come to an end - Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
Would the Jews accept him if he came from amongst the Jews? Interesting question.
But the whole point is made clear in this verse:
2:90-91 How bad is that for which they have sold their ownselves, that they should disbelieve in that which Allâh has revealed (the Qur'ân), grudging that Allâh should reveal of His Grace unto whom He will of His slaves. So they have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers, there is disgracing torment.
And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allâh has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allâh aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?"
This is a chance for all the nations of humanity. All those who fought their prophets, who indulged in idolatry, who broke their commandments. This is a chance for humanity to retrun to their Eternal Loving Lord.
This is a blessing. This is a mercy for humanity.
21:107 We sent thee not,(O Muhammad), but as a Mercy for all creation.
This is our chance, our choice. The final messenger for the Lord has come. He has indeed confirmed what was revealed to the previous Prophets and has revived the light and truth on earth. He is not sent to any specific nation, he is for humanity and all the nations of the world. He was selected as a human being. He is God's chosen Messenger to complete prophethood in the world.
So I suppose my question to you, SpaceFalcon, is the following:
Does God offer His law to different nations and choose nations for His favour? Or does God offer the law to all humanity and choose those who accept it for His favour?
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Don't look at Islam as a different religion. Look at Islam as the continuation of the path of God, from Abraham, Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad.
May God's peace and blessings be upon them, and all of God's Prophets.
It was specified by God that His commandments were between Him and the Jews. Whether they obeyed them did not change the fact that those commandments were for them. It is not universal because there is no need for it to be.format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Please tell me then, when was it changed? We have a few copies from times long before Jesus, and they are no different than today. The Jews never rejected the commandments of God. They failed to follow them from time to time, but that did not change what they had been given. There have always been a group among the Jews who kept the law, even when many of the others did not properly follow it, they kept the way of God for Jews.But as you and I have both agreed, unfortunately humanity is often inclined to evil, and the message of Prophet Moses was rejected by a large group, and many changed their scriptures. We can no longer say that it is 100% the word of God.
Does the Quran change for you because you believe the Shi'ites fail to follow it?
Did we accept Jesus? He was also beyond the time of prophecy (Malachi was the last). He came to replace the law, and as God commanded us, we knew that was wrong.Would the Jews accept him if he came from amongst the Jews? Interesting question.
Who has favor does not depend on who follows the law, indeed you can think of the laws of Moses as being an inhibitor to gaining favor, because there are more places for one to deviate from the law, where a non-Jew need only follow the 7 laws of the noahide to gain favor.Does God offer His law to different nations and choose nations for His favour? Or does God offer the law to all humanity and choose those who accept it for His favour?
God gave the Torah to the Jews, it was given exclusivly to them, as He Himself said: "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings, and I brought you to Me." He brought us out of Egypt, made us something from nothing to give us our law. Anyone can join us in our efforts, but that is an unneeded change, because non-Jews already have their own easy way to the favor of God.
It is a different religion that demands a belief in a different prophet that no Jew can accept, and a different way of life that is not with the way the God gave us. By all means continue on as a Muslim, but your way is not the way of the Jews, and will never be. We cannot reject what God gave us.Don't look at Islam as a different religion.
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