Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

**- Qatada -** · 01-10-2006

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family) in the Bible.

by Dr. Zakir Naik

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Old Testament:

The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1. Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) Prophesised in the book of Deuteronomy:

Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (peace be upon him) because Jesus (peace be upon him) was like Moses (peace be upon him). Moses (peace be upon him) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Jew. Moses (peace be upon him) was a Prophet and Jesus (peace be upon him) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (peace be upon him) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (peace be upon them all) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who is like Moses (peace be upon him):

i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive.
(4:157-158)

Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is from among the brethren of Moses (peace be upon him). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (peace be upon him) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (peace be upon him) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (peace be upon him).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2. It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

3. Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

4. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) mentioned by name in the old testament:

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is yet present.

To Be continued...

**Umar001** · 02-17-2008

As Salam Alaykum,

In the Name of Allāh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Blessings and Peace be upon His servant and messenger Muhammad.

It seems that some have been upset at the analogy. I think I'll let the discussion of the last couple of days carry on since those involved are mature and see how it fizzles.

**MustafaMc** · 02-17-2008

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

In the Name of Allāh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Blessings and Peace be upon His servant and messenger Muhammad.

Thank you for reiterating our beliefs toward Allah (swt) and Prophet Muhammad (saaws). You brought back proper respect in this thread for Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as a servant and messenger of Allah - what greater honor is there among men than this. I will add that this same honor is due to Prophet Jesus (as). The Quran shows the relationship of Jesus (as) to Allah (swt) as that of messenger and servant to Master as illustrated in 4:171-172 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; Might I add that this relationship also exists in the Bible Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.... and Acts 4:27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus....

...and now back to the thread title. My interpretation of the verses in Deuteronomy, as Brother YusufNoor pointed out, are that they in fact were referring to Prophet Muhammad (saaws). I further interpret the "Comforter" that Jesus refers to in the gospels to prophesy the coming of Prophet Muhammad, John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [it] unto you. Of course, Christians interpret this to refer to the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, but when did the Holy Spirit ever speak words heard from another?

**aadil77** · 02-17-2008

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Thank you for reiterating our beliefs toward Allah (swt) and Prophet Muhammad (saaws). You brought back proper respect in this thread for Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as a servant and messenger of Allah - what greater honor is there among men than this. I will add that this same honor is due to Prophet Jesus (as). The Quran shows the relationship of Jesus (as) to Allah (swt) as that of messenger and servant to Master as illustrated in 4:171-172 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; Might I add that this relationship also exists in the Bible Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham. Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.... and Acts 4:27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus....

...and now back to the thread title. My interpretation of the verses in Deuteronomy, as Brother YusufNoor pointed out, are that they in fact were referring to Prophet Muhammad (saaws). I further interpret the "Comforter" that Jesus refers to in the gospels to prophesy the coming of Prophet Muhammad, John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [it] unto you. Of course, Christians interpret this to refer to the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, but when did the Holy Spirit ever speak words heard from another?

He's just summed it all up!,

Grace seeker, here's some advice - just keep your crappy baseball game analogy

out of it and stick to real terms

**YusufNoor** · 02-17-2008

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

That holds water only if you can trust that the person who passed that on to you was actually executing the gameplan when he said that.

It becomes a circular arguement:
Muhammad (pbuh) gave us the Qur'an, a message from Allah.
How do you know that it is a message from Allah?

we know it because it is the same mesage as all of the Prophets, excepting the "Pauline Jesus:"

the VAST MAJORITY of Prophets that we have knowlwdge of ALL descendants of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam, and are now generally[though not always correctly] called Jews. so if we want to determine what "their" message was, Jewish sources would be pretty reliable. here's a snippet from Rabbi Nosson Scherman in his "An Overview/ Ezra - Molder of a New Era" which serves as an introduction to The Book Ezra / A New Translation With A Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic And Rabbinic Sources with Translation and Commentary by Rabbi Yosef Rabinowitz:

The First Temple and the Jewish nation - both the Ten Tribes of Samaria and the Kingdom of Judah - had crumbled spiritually because of the sin of idolatry. ALL THE PROPHETS FROM MOSES ONWARD HAD WARNED ELOQUENTLY AND STRENUOUSLY ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF THIS CARDINAL SIN. Nevertheless, Israel succumbed, with the result that it was banished from it land and nearly destroyed as a people. ...why should there have been such an obsessive passion for [idolatry] that even the Prophets were ignored and murdered in the people's headlong passion to choose strange gods and pagan ceremonies over the ONE GOD and His Torah?

so, the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!! AND this message is for ALL TIMES!! which by the way is proof of existence of islam before Muhammed's[Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam] times."

Because Allah's messenger gave it to us.

How do you know that he is Allah's true messenger? Because if he wasn't Allah would have killed him

in addition to the Qur'an we have from Deuteronomy 18

17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." ]

if we look at this in terms of the gospels with some list Jesus/Isa's, Alaihe Salaam, at 1 year and one at 3 years, then one could see that "the Paulian Jesus" wa in fact put to death for speaking in the name of other gods, namely, himself. NOT SO with the Islamic Isa ibn Marriam, who began his testimony in his "cradle years" up until Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, lifted him up to heaven.

to wit, OUR Jesus/Isa, Alaihe Salaam MAY be one of the prophets who fulfilled the Deuteronomy 18 prophecies, but the "Paulian Jesus" is CLEARLY NOT qualified to!

And what is the source of this knowledge? It is in the Qur'an, the message that came from Allah.

as the Messenger of Allah's, Salla Allahu alahihe Wa Salaam, message was EXACTLY the same as that of the previous Messengers we may use the Torah and Tanakh as further proof.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

i must say that i'm in agreement with those who have found your last few posts offensive in the least. please don't forget: a) this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam; b) No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him; and c) There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam

taken from:

15.Promoting Religions other than Islam
While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.

16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and companions, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present. While some may complain that there is "freedom of speech" please remember this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam. What is allowed in speech is determined by the Admin and not the member.

please try to remember that as Muslims, we KNOW that we are on the straight path. we have no doubt that the message of Jesus/Isa Alaihe Salaam has been corrupted. we are not looking for some sudden realization that we are mistaken. you are entitled to your mistaken beliefs in regard to Islam, but a) you will have to answer for them on Judgement Day; b) this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam; c) repeating your attacks on Islam & the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), AD NASEUM are against the rules of the forum.

the "circular message' we see in these discussions is YOURS! Jesus is God because he says he is God, and even though the books that you use to prove that have been changed and disputed, you still believe that they are true becaues the men who allegedly wrote them were themselves "men of God" and we know that they were "men of God" because they told us that they were "men of God"...

one gets dizzy just reading it!

**MustafaMc** · 02-18-2008

I was reading in the Bible tonight and this passage struck me as being relevant to this thread. Would anyone care to comment?

Matthew 12:18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles.
Mt 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry aloud; Neither shall any one hear his voice in the streets.
Mt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

**YusufNoor** · 02-18-2008

Originally Posted by YusufNoor

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it's also strange how "Christians" and other non-believers ASSUME that Islam isn't mentioned in the Torah!

In Genesis chapter 17, Stone Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…]

We do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy! so why wouldn't there be further references to Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam?

refs: The Stone Edition Chumash The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with A Commentary Anthologized From The Rabbinic Writings by Mesorah Publishing as well as the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd, referred to as the Chumash or Bereishsis/ Genesis respectively.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i just wanted to restate the FACT that Islam IS PROPHESIED in the Torah!

that's all...

**fromgenesis** · 02-18-2008

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

In the Name of Allāh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Peace and Blessings be upon His slave and messenger Muhammad.

I think that is inclusive of the way the Prophethood of Muhammad is perceived by Muslims.

I don't see how that verse would do damage to their claim.

The question would not be about perceptions but about whether Muhammad passes the "test" as far as the specific paragraph is concerned as well as a considerable number of other prophesies re the prophet that will appear. It would be very helpful to learn about. prophecies by Muhammad that he was not personally able to influence.
You seem to accept the Old Testament ( as you use this to substantiate your claim) and you are thus free to quote other verses that further substantiate your claim.

**- Qatada -** · 02-18-2008

Fromgenesis, you may find these links beneficial:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...hren-only.html

Prophecies

Peace.

**fromgenesis** · 02-19-2008

Originally Posted by - Qatada -

Fromgenesis, you may find these links beneficial:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...hren-only.html

Prophecies

Peace.

Thank you for your response and links - interesting but not quite what I had in mind as you would agree that we are referring to proof that Mohammad was the prophet referred to. As you will appreciate if you made the reference applicable to Mohammad, you could make it apply to any person that is referred to as a prophet (by himself if need be)

You see, there are more than one "by the way" reference to the prophet that was to be born. Will gladly provide references in case you are not quite aware. Examples are
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Also refer to Isaiah 52:13 -53:12

It may also be relevant to consider what Jesus said:
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Would still be interesting to hear about prophecies (not information that could be "copied" , or speculative, but that which has relevance to the future )

**MustafaMc** · 02-23-2008

Even as a marriage of 20 years can be destroyed by a single night of indiscretion, so can the witness of 2,000 posts be destroyed by 2 posts of blatant disrespect.

**MustafaMc** · 02-23-2008

Comments to post above.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

I was reading in the Bible tonight and this passage struck me as being relevant to this thread. Would anyone care to comment?

Matthew 12:18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased:

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemo..._index.php?l=3
Among the thousands of prophets and messengers sent by God, the Qur'an refers to 25, five of whom are known as ulu-al-Azm, or messengers with power or resolve. The first of the prophets of power or resolve (ulu al-'azm) was Nuh (pbuh), referred to as najiyullah, the confidant of Allah, the father of humanity after the Deluge. The second prophet of resolve is Ibrahim (pbuh), khalilullah, the intimate friend of Allah (Qur'an An-Nisaa 4:125). With his son Isma'il (pbuh) he built the Ka'bah, the first house for the worship of God. The third one is Musa (pbuh), called kaleemullah, the one to whom God speaks (Qur'an An-Nisaa 4:164), the recipient of the Torah. He saved the people of Israel from Ramses II and brought the tablets with the Ten Commands. Then Isa (pbuh), the Word of God and His spirit (ruhullah) the recipient of the Enjeel, who was born from the Virgin Maryam. And finally Muhammad (pbuh) referred as habibullah, the most beloved of Allah, the last messenger of God to mankind, who blessed us with the Qur'an.

I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles.

Prophet Jesus (as) was sent but to the "lost sheep of Israel" (it is not fitting to give the children's bread to the dogs), while Prophet Muhammad (saaws) was sent to all mankind - specifically not excluding the Gentiles.

Mt 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry aloud; Neither shall any one hear his voice in the streets.

According to "A Biography of the Prophet of Islam" by Dr. Mahdi Ahmad, "The Prophet (saaws) used to meet secretly with the early converts in order to pass on the latest revelations that he had received...As pointed out earlier, the efforts at secrecy were very commonly employed by the Prophet (saaws) throughout his life. This being another case in point." On page 902 "Such as , 'O Prophet, We have sent you as a witness, harbinger of good tidings and a warner unto the unlettered ones. You are my slave and Messenger. I have named you Mutawakkil: neither crude nor coarse, nor yelling in the markets..."

Mt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.

We know of the persecutions, insults and injury that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) suffered and endured for teaching faith in One God, yet he perservered until Islam was victorious first with the fall of Mecca. Quran 5:23 Today I have completed for you your religion and completed My favors unto you and am satisfied with Islam as your religion.

According to Christian theology, Jesus (as) was victorious in resurrection from the dead after he died on the cross (was broken for our sins).

Mt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

**fromgenesis** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Even as a marriage of 20 years can be destroyed by a single night of indiscretion, so can the witness of 2,000 posts be destroyed by 2 posts of blatant disrespect.

If disrespect is asking proof of claims, then the shoe fits. In my opinion, however, your comment may be an effort to redirect the conversation. I would still like to receive information on real prophecies.

**MustafaMc** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by fromgenesis

I would still like to receive information on real prophecies.

...and how is the post at the top of this page (Matthew 12:18-21) and the ones by Br. Yusuf Noor not relevant to your point? You may choose to believe that these scriptures don't apply to Prophet Muhammad (saaws), but we Muslims see that they do.

**YusufNoor** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by fromgenesis

Thank you for your response and links - interesting but not quite what I had in mind as you would agree that we are referring to proof that Mohammad was the prophet referred to. As you will appreciate if you made the reference applicable to Mohammad, you could make it apply to any person that is referred to as a prophet (by himself if need be)

You see, there are more than one "by the way" reference to the prophet that was to be born. Will gladly provide references in case you are not quite aware. Examples are

actually these are just examples of Christian ignorance about the Tanakh.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

actually, Jewish exegesis on this verse is that it is speaking about Hezekiah, NOT some man/god or god/man invented later on..

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

NO Jewish translation list the word virgin, it's young maiden[Ahaz's wife] and is another reference to Hezekiah

Also refer to Isaiah 52:13 -53:12

you'll have to be more specific as i'm not current on ALL "Christian inventions" on the Tanakh.

It may also be relevant to consider what Jesus said:

it would be more relevant to hear what Jesus actually said rather than read more "Christian inventions"

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever said such a thing.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever said such a thing.

Would still be interesting to hear about prophecies (not information that could be "copied" , or speculative, but that which has relevance to the future )

not sure what you're on about here

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it's sad to see the way that Christians try to make the Torah and Tanakh ALL ABOUT JESUS, then they call ANYTHING else pure speculation! it's nothing but propaganda.

**fromgenesis** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

I was reading in the Bible tonight and this passage struck me as being relevant to this thread. Would anyone care to comment?

Matthew 12:18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles.
Mt 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry aloud; Neither shall any one hear his voice in the streets.
Mt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, And smoking flax shall he not quench, Till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles hope.

Matthew 12:18 :
Read also Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
The passage refers to Isaiah 42: 1-4
You should also read the previous sentences (Matthew 12 from verse 14) which indicates that Jesus withdrew because of the antagonism of the Pharisees - who wished to destroy Him.
This reference to Isaiah shows that Jesus was in fact a person contrary to the beliefs held by the Jewish people. They expected a real earthly king, a conqueror of nations. Jesus however did not try and subdue them by force - instead of shouting for battle, lifting up His voice in the streets, oppressing the feeble ( a bruised reed he shall not break), he withdraws.
The reference to "servant" appears in a number of places in the Old Testament as well as thew New Testament:For example:
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

It is important that you read wider than a single sentence, or paragraph to allow you to see the contexts in which something is said. That is the problem - something is taken out of contexts and on its own taken to say something which it is not.
Re Mat 12:21:
Jesus was not only concerned with the nation of Israel - to offer them salvation. It is offered to each person outside of Israel as well. Paul was the great missionary to the gentiles:
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

**MustafaMc** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by YusufNoor

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it's sad to see the way that Christians try to make the Torah and Tanakh ALL ABOUT JESUS, then they call ANYTHING else pure speculation! it's nothing but propaganda.

They also try to make prophesies about the Comforter/Counselor all about the Holy Spirit in order for it to fit their dogma.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you. ...
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
Jo 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [it] unto you.

According to Christianity, when did the Holy Spirit ever speak to humans? If the Holy Spirit is God, then why would He "not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear". Would not God speak "from Himself" and not what He heard from another?

This passage can easily be interpreted to prophesy the coming of Prophet Muhammad (saaws) if one has eyes to see and ears to hear. ...but Allah guides to His Truth those whom He wills to guide.

**MustafaMc** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by fromgenesis

Jesus was not only concerned with the nation of Israel - to offer them salvation. It is offered to each person outside of Israel as well. Paul was the great missionary to the gentiles:
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

...but Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles.

Mt 15:22 And behold, a Canaanitish woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon. Mt 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15:25 But she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. Mt 15:26 And he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.

Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into [any] way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: Mt 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Ishmaelites (Arabs) that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) was sent to as a Messenger of Allah (swt) are Gentile, or non-Jews. What prophet in the OT or the NT was sent to the Gentiles? Do you claim that Paul was a Prophet of God that received a new revelation from God as he himself claimed in the first chapter of Galatians? Could not Paul be a false prophet as prophesied by Jesus (as) Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

**fromgenesis** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by YusufNoor

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it's sad to see the way that Christians try to make the Torah and Tanakh ALL ABOUT JESUS, then they call ANYTHING else pure speculation! it's nothing but propaganda.

actually these are just examples of Christian ignorance about the Tanakh.

You may regard it as such just because it is different to your interpretation. This does however not validate yours.
[QUOTE]actually, Jewish exegesis on this verse is that it is speaking about Hezekiah, NOT some man/god or god/man invented later on..[QUOTE] You accept the Jewish interpretation of the Torah? Hezekiah called Mighty God[NO Jewish translation list the word virgin, it's young maiden[Ahaz's wife] and is another reference to Hezekiah[QUOTE]On what basis do you accept the Jewish interpretation?

"Christian inventions"

My dear man, I do not call your beliefs by any such names or try to belittle you. Is this typical behaviour for Muslims? I form a certain perception based on your conduct and must confess it is not totally positive.
"Christian inventions", as you call them have been adequately proven by historical facts. The passages referred to refers to prophecies re Jesus which were all fulfilled.

it would be more relevant to hear what Jesus actually said rather than read more "Christian inventions"

Would be glad to receive such information that has any documentary proof from the time.[QUOTE]there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever said such a thing.[QUOTE]Funny that you seem to accept certain things and others not, even though the information that you accept (Jesus did not die on the cross) is contradicted by both secular historians and even Jesus' opponents (in whose interest it would be to deny). In opposition to this, none of the information provided by the Bible is contradicted - which would have lead to the demise of Christianity during the time of the apostles as all would have known it to be lies.

**YusufNoor** · 02-24-2008

[QUOTE=fromgenesis;917073]You may regard it as such just because it is different to your interpretation. This does however not validate yours.
[QUOTE]actually, Jewish exegesis on this verse is that it is speaking about Hezekiah, NOT some man/god or god/man invented later on..[QUOTE] You accept the Jewish interpretation of the Torah?

not entirely, but i find there is alot more Tawheed in Jewish writings than there is in Christian ones. so while the Jews have indeed angered Allah, Suhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, they speak with more correctly[though not without error] regarding the One-ness of Allah, Suhannahu Wa Ta' Aala.

Hezekiah called Mighty God[NO Jewish translation list the word virgin, it's young maiden[Ahaz's wife] and is another reference to Hezekiah[QUOTE]On what basis do you accept the Jewish interpretation?

asking a Jew what Jewish words mean is logical.

My dear man, I do not call your beliefs by any such names or try to belittle you.

if it is invented by Christians, then they are indeed Christian inventions. i'm sorry that that offends you.

Is this typical behaviour for Muslims? I form a certain perception based on your conduct and must confess it is not totally positive.
"Christian inventions", as you call them have been adequately proven by historical facts.

there's not a single contemporaneous piece of evidence regarding a man-god or a god-man, nor one prophesied in the Tanakh. it's Christian invention.

The passages referred to refers to prophecies re Jesus which were all fulfilled.

that is only the opinion of Christians, go to a synagogue and inquire about all the alleged prophecies you ask about.

Would be glad to receive such information that has any documentary proof from the time.[QUOTE]there's no contemporaneous evidence that Jesus ever said such a thing.

Funny that you seem to accept certain things and others not, even though the information that you accept (Jesus did not die on the cross) is contradicted by both secular historians and even Jesus' opponents

but no contemporaneous testimony. iirc, just Josephus, writing 30+ years later and gospels written after Paulianity became Christianity.

(in whose interest it would be to deny). In opposition to this, none of the information provided by the Bible is contradicted - which would have lead to the demise of Christianity during the time of the apostles as all would have known it to be lies.

the term Christianity IS PROOF of the demise of the original message brought by Jesus; all of the Prophets of Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta' Aala came to:

"RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!! AND this message is for ALL TIMES!! which by the way is proof of existence of Islam before Mohammed[Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam] times."

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

we post and then we repeat:

in addition to the Qur'an we have from Deuteronomy 18

17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." ]

if we look at this in terms of the gospels with some list Jesus/Isa's, Alaihe Salaam, at 1 year and one at 3 years, then one could see that "the Paulian Jesus" was in fact put to death for speaking in the name of other gods, namely, himself. NOT SO with the Islamic Isa ibn Marriam, who began his testimony in his "cradle years" up until Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, lifted him up to heaven.

to wit, OUR Jesus/Isa, Alaihe Salaam MAY be one of the prophets who fulfilled the Deuteronomy 18 prophecies, but the "Paulian Jesus" is CLEARLY NOT qualified to!

Islam is nothing new, it is a return to the religion of Ibrahim, Alaihe Salaam. it recognizes ALL of the Prophets of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala.

Christianity on the other hand has changed "In the beginnings of Gods creating the heavens and the earth" into "In the beginnings of Jesus' creating the heavens and the earth" THAT is shirk. it's simply not the message of a single Prophet of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala.

**fromgenesis** · 02-24-2008

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

...and how is the post at the top of this page (Matthew 12:18-21) and the ones by Br. Yusuf Noor not relevant to your point? You may choose to believe that these scriptures don't apply to Prophet Muhammad (saaws), but we Muslims see that they do.

I was referring to prophecies from the Koran/Mohammad's own prophecies that he himself could not fulfill.
The fact that you believe some content from the Bible is relevant does not mean they are. You may believe they are relevant to anybody you choose, but it is not supported by a proper analysis of all relevant material.
The problem is basically that you choose parts that could somehow be made applicable, but reject that which is contrary to your belief system- claiming that there is no proof that for instance Jesus said something.