what makes you so sure that "your" religion is right?

format_quote Originally Posted by - Serene -

Oh so in your opinion no one ever converts??!!

I think he is saying that they are a minority, and normally people follow the religion of their parents. But that doesn't show that belief is a choice, it just shows that these people have influence over our choices.

And it is not entirely accurate, that would depends on time and place. When God sends a rasool there is normally mass conversion. But Rasool comes with divine judgement too, so rejection of Rasool results in destruction of his nation.

Hi mediadave

format_quote Originally Posted by mediadave

Heh. Well, I know a lot of goths and no one I know is a satanist. Some people might call themselves that, but they're usually just anarchists and non-religious. And if there are real satanists, and they have satanist hymns, then that is the manner of their faith and is of no concern to me.

Yeah I agree, I think most satanist are just trying to provocate or shock people. I doubt anybody would willingly and knowingly prefer eternal ****ation. To me it seems more like a statement of disbelief, something among the lines of: "Only a true atheist who doesn't believe in satan and eternal ****ation, would take such a risk." So by worshiping satan they offer the ultimate proof of not believing in him.

I don't believe you really can or should seperate those in some matters, particularly faith/ the divine.

I beg to differ, emotional motivations can easily be inaccurate. Take for example a rape victim hating all men. It's a very understandable reaction, but everybody, probably even the victim itself, knows the reaction is unfair towards all non-raping man. Now I do agree with you that you can't rule out emotions at all. Personal experience is crucial to religious choices, I know that very well. However, my claim is not that all emotional motives are illogical. Some might be logical, some might be neutral and some might be illogical. I'm going to assume you'll agree to me that illogical choices are bad. but no, my argument is not to bar emotions completely. My argument is to be extra careful with them, because people are more prone to illogical decisions when acting emotionally. When dealing with music in specific, it's even more dangerous, because I 'm inclined to think that the majority of the population is unaware of the full effect of music, and minimalize the illogical thoughts triggered by it.

A charismatic speaker can do so with even more ease.

True! The difference though, is that such a speaker can easily be refuted by the witty among us. People will much sooner accept that the speaker is flawed when you point out these flaws. That is because an arguments, brings out the logical part of the brain, so people will use their logic to judge it. Music on the other hand brings out the emotional part of the brain, and people will tend to judge it by that. Therefor I argue that music can be more deceitful as opposed to charismatic speech.

Hi tornado

If I don't have evidence, I can only hope that such a wife wasn't cheating on me so you can never say she isn't cheating on me. Light going off? That's completely different. We know why it goes off. I believe without proof? Not really. I actually see zero evidence. Not wanted to believe? Of course I want to believe. Of course going to heaven and living forever with people you love is enticing as opposed to dying off like rest of the animals.

Well I didn't intend for you to take my examples so literary. My point simply was that people accept things as true on a regular basis. It's true that you "could" prove the light of your fridge goes out; like by drilling a peep-hole. But have you ever done that? There could always have been a manufactural flaw, but most people just assume that the machine does what it's supposed to do, on good faith. however when it comes to religion the majority of people draw a line and suddenly become high demanding of proof.

Let my try an approach on a different angle to explain it. In search of truths, it's very wise for a person to be critical. The more you question and distrust, the lower the probability of being misguided. However criticism by itself, is no path to understanding and truth. It's only half the way. When people become extreme in critical attitude, we call that paranoia. And unlike a healthy critical attitude, which lead to wisdom, paranoia becomes an obstacle to wisdom! Nothing, but really not one single thing in this universe can be truly proven. There is always a reservation, always a presumption, always an axiom, always reliance on observation and interpretation. As the mental disease progresses, and the patient becomes increasingly aware of this, eventually with nothing to trust and no certainties, all wisdom is forfeit. Now the reason I bring this up is, that many atheist have a tendency of being slightly paranoia when it comes to religion. A sort of double standard if I way, where religious ideas need to be proven before given the benefit of the doubt, but where all other daily facts, like the light in the fridge going out are accepted on good faith.

Is that true, because that would be wonderful. Would I be O.K. if I'm a good person but maintain the position that god doesn't exist.

I'm unable to answer that. One person cannot judge another for a large variety of reasons. (I don't know your intentions and influence by background. I can't read your thoughts, I'm not capable of weighing out good vs. bad deeds, I'm not responsible to judge you, I don't have authority to judge, and so on...) So there are no certainties. Being a Muslim doesn't guarantee heaven, and neither does being an atheist guarantee hell. So I really can't tell you, nor can any other Muslim for that matter. What I can tell you however, is that by becoming a Muslim, and holding on to the teachings you could increase your chances enormously. What I can also tell you, is that if you anticipate to defend yourself during judgment by saying: "I wasn't able to believe because I wasn't convinced"; that such a response will not be accepted because it's flawed according to our belief as I previously explained.

Belief in religion is largely not our choice. It's a function of where you are born. Some, I bet a very small minority, actually convert.

Belief is always a choice. I'm willing to meet you halfway though, and accept that circumstances make it easier/harder. Each person will be judged by their own capabilities. So the following people will not be judged by the same standards:
- People out of isolated communities who have never even heard of Islamic teachings; like small tribes in Africa or South-America for example.
- People who heard of it, but have been fed a wrong image regarding the faith.
-People who have studied the religion in depth, but reject it due to personal preference.
Now obviously, an atheist out of one group is definitely not the same as an atheist out of another group. And since each person will be judged by their own capabilities, it is very plausible that they'll receive a different judgment. (I know not, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.)
However to get back to the point, none of this means that there is no such thing as a choice. You seem to be arguing that there is no free will at all, and that these circumstances like place of birth, bring forth an inescapable causal predestination. If that is the case, you're welcome to bring new life in the threads about the existence of free will. But nevertheless, your argument against religion is still flawed by circularity since you rely on presumptions out of your own viewpoints like the absence of free will.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007

i think islam is the complete deen...causE islam is the combination of the religion of Musa,isa,dawud,zakariya and etc....is Tauhid/tauheed....cause they teach the real deen(religion) oF allah.....

1.Adam
2.Musa(moses)
3.Harun(Aaron)
4.ibrahim(abraham)
5.ishak(isaac)
6.ishmael(ismail)
7.Dzul kiel(ezekiel)
8.Salleh
9.yakub(jacob)
10.hud
11.shuaib
12.yunus(jonah)
13.ilyas(Elias)
14. ilyasa(elisha)
15. luth(Lut)
16.job
17.yusuf(joseph)
18.sulaiman(solomon)
19.iskandar zukarnain(alexander the great)
20. Daud(david)
21.zakariya(Zechariah)
22.Enoch
23yahya(john)
24 Isa(jesus)
25 Muhammad(pbuh)...i saluted is Muhammad SAW...

so islam is the right religion anything happened in the world u can find in koran(Quran)

I LoVE islam.....:laugh:
(Quran).



25

Since When Is Proved That Dhul Qarnain Is Alexander the Great ???

^^ Why should u get a reward for being a cruel person all your life. Do you want someone who hurt u or the people u care for, around u? Especially if they never regret it? Good grief, makes me wonder...

Hi tornado

Again, I can never be 100% sure. When it comes to religion, of course you have to show the proof because the claims are huge and people ask for proof so that they can decide whether to join the religion or not. Is there a SINGLE evidence that you are all right?

But my very question is, why put such a high standard, why only accept religion with proof? I mean, I'm sure you'll agree, that lack of proof does not mean that something is inevitably wrong. It's perfectly possibly that things which are true, are unprovable. So why the demand for proof? Belief by definition is something you accept as true without proof. Yes the claims might be huge, I agree, but so are the consequences as well as the risk! Now don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind of person that would argue that pascal's wager is sufficient ground to start to believe. However pascals wager, if nothing else, should at least show you the flaw in this "I'll only believe what is proven" attitude, does it not?

I'm extremely critical because there is no evidence I guess.
There is no paranoia when it comes to religion.

How come? I didn't realize paranoid behavior was limited to certain aspects of life? As far as I know it can affect decisions and viewpoints on every level. Care to clarify?

I don't know what a world with only atheists would be like. We know that many evil people might have been atheists perhaps Stalin, Mao and see how that turned out. However, I'm not looking for what is good/bad, I'm looking for the truth.

Yes I realize that, and I already stated in my opening post, how I at one hand consider that a respectful attitude of you. However the problem I'm trying to point out is that your methodology for finding truth is incomplete. A lot of things are simply beyond the scope of provable, but that doesn't mean they are untrue. So by confining your mind to this strict scientific methodology, you miss out on all other theories and hypothesizes that are plausibly real.

Being a Muslim doesn't guarantee heaven, and neither does being an atheist guarantee hell.

Good to know.

Take note though, that there is a huge difference between atheists who don't believe because they don't know Islam or fully understand it in the first place, and on the other hand those who reject it, fully understanding their choice.

Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They will be companions of the Fire,-dwelling therein (for ever). What they spend in the life of this (material) world May be likened to a wind which brings a nipping frost: It strikes and destroys the harvest of men who have wronged their own souls: it is not Allah that hath wronged them, but they wrong themselves. (3:116-117)

if you anticipate to defend yourself by: "I wasn't able to believe because I wasn't convinced"; that such a response will not be accepted because it's flawed according to our belief as I previously explained.

How is it flawed, I don't understand?

It is flawed because it relies on the presumption that you are not free to believe what you want. Islam holds that you are free afterall to choose. So if Islam turns out right, your defense is will be based on false assumptions.

So on that Day no excuse of theirs will avail the transgressors, nor will they be invited (then) to seek grace (by repentance).
verily We have propounded for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable: But if thou bring to them any Sign, the Unbelievers are sure to say, "Ye do nothing but talk vanities." (30:57-58)

Belief is always a choice. I'm willing to meet you halfway though, and accept that circumstances make it easier/harder.

Belief is a choice but when something is engrained into you from childhood, it becomes less of a choice when you are told you are right, they are wrong so you'll assume they are wrong when you haven't, in absolute detail, studied everything about their religion and that they haven't themselves done so vice versa.

Well it's still a choice then isn't it? I mean you do choose to accept being ingrained do you not? you say it becomes "less" of a choice... I already said I'm willing to meet halfway and say that circumstances make choices harder/easier. But again, they are nevertheless still choices, right?

And to all are (assigned) degrees according to the deeds which they (have done), and in order that (Allah) may recompense their deeds, and no injustice be done to them. (46:19)

Each person will be judged by their own capabilities..

Nice to know everyone is given a different test and if you fail, eternal hellfire.

Well isn't it completely logical? Lets consider a comparison with a teacher giving an exam to his students. For obvious reasons many teachers prefer to give different questions rather then giving all of them the same. Now wouldn't it be logical, that each answer be graded according to the difficulty of the question to, rather then just graded for being correct or not? In that same logic, isn't it fair that each person will receive a personal judgment according to his personal capabilities?

You really think that even being a bad person for just 100 years deserves infinite torture?

The Qur'an says:

* Verily Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: It is man that wrongs his own soul. (10:44)
* Allah is never unjust in the least degree: If there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward. (4:40)
* These are the Signs of Allah: We rehearse them to thee in Truth: And Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures. (3:108)

Do you think it would be just to judge the bad people as equal to the good? Say for example a holocaust victim meets Hitler in heaven?

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado

4. Nice to know everyone is given a different test and if you fail, eternal hellfire. You really think that even being a bad person for just 100 years deserves infinite torture?

Anyone who has the longevity to be a bad person for 100 years has got it coming.

Unless that's 5% of their life or something. But 100 years? Who are we talking about here, Shang Tsung?

But, I'm straying from the topic.

well tests are always shorter and effects are longer.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado

[COLOR="Navy"]Effect is in this case is so long that the short is practically non-existent.

Not really you are assuming everyone that will go to hell will stay there forever.